Robbk

I agree. If that project was completed, and released commercially, we'd have heard about it just from the hundreds of forum-active posters on this forum and Soulful Detroit, alone, at least one of them would have brought that to our attention, not to mention a '60s Soul fan on X, or Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, or even Tick Tock, would have brought it up. It's a shame that it didn't come to fruition. The trailer looked very professional, and made it appear that it would be an outstanding film, well worth watching.

This is like the US 1950s and early '60s TV show "Name That Tune". Contestants bet on how many seconds would pass before they could name the song. "I can name that tune in 3 seconds!" 🤪 Unfortunately, they only used Pop songs when I saw it during the 1950s. No obscure R&B, Blues, Gospel, or even Jazz.

2nd from left, is Lee David, clearly an African-American.

I've never seen a picture of Lee David, and there's no way to tell from his voice. I'm not a big fan of his singing because he's too "nasal" for my taste. But, in my experience, many (if not most) good singers want to sing in a variety of different styles (Pop, Soul, Gospel, Blues, Jazzy vocals), just as they might want to test their skills or limits singing in several different keys, or singing both falsetto and baritone. Gary Sherman and Jimmy Briggs worked on many Pop-oriented productions, but also blended Soul with a Poppish accent. Lee David's "Temptation's Callin'..." was certainly aimed at both the main-stream Poppish Soul and crossover market, while "Gypsy Woman seems to me to have been aimed mainly at the straight Soul market. So Lee David was a "Soul Singer". He could have gotten a great applause at The Apollo singing his version Of Gypsy Woman, whether or not he was classified as a "White Man" or a "Black Man".

Good to know the answer to this. Johnnie Mae was a big fan of The Blues. This could well have been a Blues singer friend of hers, or one referred to Johnnie Mae by a friend, hoping Johnnie Mae could use her influence to get a record deal for it with a record company, (and nothing ever happened with it).

I thought Johnnie Mae's Blue Rock recordings sounded more like Chicago than New York. This one sounds New Yorkish to me. Also, this Bluesy cut, "Mamma's Gonna Stop You". Doesn't sound, at all like Ollie McLaughlin's or his writing group's (Sharon McMahon, Maron McKenzie)'s writing (music OR lyrics). I'd be very, very surprised to find out this was one of her Blue Rock session recordings. To me, it sounds more like her Bluesy songs written by herself and Timmy Shaw.

The singer has a similar gravelly rasp to her voice as Johnnie Mae has, but her voice sounds a bit lighter and higher on the scale. Could this be her daughter, Audrey (Kaiya) deliberately putting on a gravelly/raspy voice? There is a possible family resemblance in this tone sand Johnnie Mae's.

I knew that the artist was unknown; but thought it was a legitimate Bell Sound recording done in New York. So, I was thinking about who that operated in New York, might have produced it, based on its sound (mid '60's hard edged, Bluesy Soul). I know we have nothing to go by. It was just pondering "out loud". Now I just noticed the post above that says it comes from the 1990s. Does that mean that it was played by NS DJs in the 1990s? It certainly sounds like a mid or late '60s recording. And IF that Bell Sound label on the pictured acetate above is the record we're listening to, it certainly was not made at Bell Sound during the 1990s.

I wonder if that's a Juggy Murray or Bobby Robinson production? It sounds a bit too "gritty" to have been produced by Zell Sanders. Who else in New York was recording cuts that sounded like that during the mid to late 1960s? It doesn't sound like a Detroit recording to me.

It was pressed on a small, local label at Archer Record Pressing in Detroit. They pressed mostly southeastern Michigan labels, and local national labels like Motown, when their normal pressing plants were backed up with jobs, and they wanted to get a new record out locally right away, or refresh stock in local record shops who were clamouring for it. They didn't do many (IF ANY) jobs for out-of-region-or state labels. So, that alone leads one to believe (and bet) that THIS "Fresh Records" was a Detroit Metro Area label. I have a couple end of '50s-early '60s 45s on a Fresh Records located in L.A. But they don't seem to have any relationship to each other. All the credited names on the label,.... the songwriter, A. Wilson, the producer & arranger (L. Cooper and E. Daniel), look familiar, and remind me of mid '60s Detroit tiny labels. I'm sure I have 3-4 mid '60s Detroit records with credits for those people.

I remember this was played in Chicago for a week or two, but it never got into regular rotation. I loived it from my first listen. It must be somewhat rare, As I never found it. But, I'm sure it got played on the local, Detroit stations, and had some sales there.

Great Stuff Graham, I hope you keep them coming. Great to hear things from the horse's mouth. I generally learn at the very least one thing I didn't know before, like the fact that David Ruffin almost became a Correc-Tone artist, and that Ed Wingate chose to sign Willie Kendrick over David, and that Ron Davis was Wilbur Golden's relative. That was a bit of nepotism. But Davis was a really good songwriter.

So, are you saying that the background tracks (or some portion of them) from Andre Williams' Ric Tic production of Laura Lee's "So Will I" were used on Sylvia Thomas' Bamboo 45? That could have been Chicago's Gene Chandler leasing the track from Chicago/Detroit producer Andre Williams, or the tracks were "stolen" without Williams' knowledge, just like Dave Hamilton's Topper tracks suspiciously ended up on Maurice Jackson's Maurci Records' Monique 45s, unbeknownced to him until someone played them for him. But I know that Chicago writer/producer Karl Tarlton used several Detroit background tracks on his artists' productions, such as those by Lee Charles, and Garland Green. Deke Atkins did that as well with his Duo productions (Sheryl Swope, The Profiles). He was rumoured to have taken Maxwell to Detroit to record some cuts there. But maybe he just leased some tracks from Golden World, or from Andre Williams in Chicago. I suppose it could be that the reason I didn't think Holly Maxwell's tracks sounded fully Detroitish (and "tinny", with too much bass and too little else) is because they weren't the full mix of background tracks, and were mainly bass line and only one guitar and no strings. Listening again to Holly's "Don't Say You Love Me", I recognise it as absolutely the same rhythm track as the backgrounds of some Golden World production on a record I have with a different title. But the horns are different and I hear no strings. So, I think that Deke Atkins either took Holly to Golden World to record her vocals there, and paid for them to provide the background tracks. But rather than record new tracks, they used already recorded tracks. OR, Atkins simply leased the tracks from Golden World, because they were leased for less than recording new tracks, because they wouldn't need to rent studio time or pay musicians. OR, Williams, ended up with unused alternate or unfinished mix tapes of some productions he worked on, and leased them to Atkins in Chicago. That was 1965, and maybe Atkins' first record production. It's a good bet that he didn't have enough money to pay for an elaborate production AND also pay for pressing enough records for decent distribution. So he went the bargain route, using existing instrumental tracks. Yes, I've heard that The Volcanoes and a few other Philly groups were taken to Golden World to record, to get "The Detroit Sound". People said they sounded "like Motown". I could believe that they recorded some tracks they used on their records there, but I didn't think they sounded much like Motown productions.

Holly Maxwell was from Chicago, and lived there at that time. Star was a Chicago label. "Don't Say You Love Me Until You Do" was published by Myto Music because JoAnne Jackson (Bratton), Ed Wingate's partner and future wife, wrote it. It sounded too "tinny" to me to have been recorded at Golden World. But, I do remember that she had been taken by one of her Chicago producers to Detroit, to record some of here songs. So, maybe this was one of those. It sounds too simple, too much bass, and too little of much else. I don't hear any Detroit musicians on it, like we always do on Golden World recordings. The beat and melody sound like it because a Detroit writer wrote it.

Yes! They definitely meant for it to be 1011. There were so many printer errors and transcribing errors made back in those days. Record companies were in such a hurry to get records out as quickly as possible, they often told printers and pressing plant operators to not bother them with providing a "last look" at ready-to-go printing plates, before printing. We had about 4-5 printing errors at Airwave Records, and I tried to be careful with that.

Thanks, Yank. So, it seems that Edward came back to Beatty's operation in 1968. I guess there had been no hard feelings involved in his leaving.

I think that Mary Jane 1010 was released later, in 1968, as an alternate takes re-issue. But I think all the recordings were made in 1967. I've always wondered why Edward's back-up group's name was changed to The Natural Looks. I never heard of the latter as an appearing group, nor have I ever seen a venue poster of an appearance by them. When Edward was asked about that name change he said it was his original Arabians group that recorded both versions. So, I think that The Arabians, including Edward may have already been done dealing with Beatty when he re-issued the record. But, I wonder why The Natural Looks were listed on the record. I've forgotten about whether or not The Fifes were a later group, or just a re-naming of The Arabians by Beatty when leasing out The Arabians' tapes to other labels after Hamilton and his group had moved on. I don't remember hearing or reading about Edward answering that question. Maybe someone else here knows about why those other group names appear on later issues?

Thanks! That's not the article I read that also contained a photo of Bateman, but the timing is right on the mark, and proves that Mercury had an across-the-board policy of "modernizing" their production capabilities in The Soul Music genre. And, his operation would move into their New York offices. The 2 months earlier date, of Sept. 1965, reveals that the significantly earlier signing of Andre Williams (in Feb. '65) probably had nothing to do with Bateman's hiring, other than being part of Mercury's overall plan. So, Williams and Bateman weren't a packaged team. But, interestingly enough the 2 of them had teamed up to work for 20th Century Fox on Mary Wells' first Fox recording sessions in Detroit in early '65, on her first several singles releases and her first Fox LP. That was part ofg 20th Century Fox's plan to ghet into Soul Music, also spawned by Motown's erxplosion of success in late '64 and early '65.

The LaVettes release occurred very late 1965; whereas, Andre Williams' stint with Mercury was from February of that year. This article states that that record was an EARLY Mercury project for Bateman. So it's not very likely that Bateman was signed to Mercury anytime near February, and most of his Mercury time was in late 1965 and early 1966 (a much shorter run than Williams', and only partly overlapping). So, it seems likely that the 2 producers didn't come to Mercury as a package, or as part of a single Mercury plan to "modernize" their Soul Music style. Still, I'd like to find that article I read to find out when Bateman signed with Mercury. It must have been in Record World. But, I would SWEAR that I read it in Billboard, and I can see where I was and the logos on The magazine's front page. I'm SURE I read it in Billboard.

And Bateman recorded the follow-up using Richard Tee's band for Mercury (Smash) in New York, a few months after. But, as he took the tapes to Mercury to overdub the strings, he most likely already had his production deal with them, or he'd have overdubbed the strings in Detroit. So this tells us only THAT, and not when he started with them. He was an independent producer whose contract with Mercury was NOT likely to have been exclusive. He'd still have been allowed to work on his own projects in his "off time". He DID bring Ingram into the Mercury fold with the follow-up, in any case, so Mercury would have been satisfied. The HIB record was released in 1966. Andre Williams was signed by Mercury in February, 1965. We know that Bateman was already working with Mercury in 1966, but not when he started with them. I still need to find the Billboard or Record World article on his signing. It WAS on The Internet when I last read it. But I haven't been able to find it now.

I have no idea who she was. But the song sounds very Poppish-style Girls-Groupy, as many of The Spencers productions did. Those girls had to be at least 12 or 13. The beat is okay, and the general tune of the song is decent. But everything else, instrumental, acoustics, mix, singing, is very weak. To me, a good beat isn't nearly enough to carry a song. I know it IS enough for some "Soulies". Good luck finding out who she was. Maybe she was Carl or Robert's kid? She certainly was very young and not a professional.

"Baby Boy" was written by Wingate/Golden World Records' Myto Music writers, The Hamilton Brothers, specifically for Golden World's Juanita Williams' Golden World release, but, yes, I suppose Janeen Henry's version was recorded in Detroit, given that ex-Motown arranger, Dale Warren (Raynoma Gordy's cousin) was still residing in Detroit then and arranging records there for several Detroit labels. So, I'm also guessing that like Jimmy Holland, she was one of Andre Williams' Detroit artist signings to Mercury, rather than one of his Chicago artist signings. Thanks for the Andre Williams article, Yank. I knew I had read one years ago in either Billboard or Record World (or both). I want to check also when Mercury signed their deal with Robert Bateman in their articles about him in those 2 trades. I know I read at least one, if not in both. I remember his photograph and the fluff about him being an ex-Motowner. So, I googled both "Billboard article and Record World article about Robert Bateman being hired/or contracted by Mercury Records", and came up with nothing. Having been a child of the 1940s and '50s, I'm TERRIBLE at the "new" technology, like computers, smartphones, and The Internet. I don't know how to do a proper Internet search. You seem to be an expert on that. Can you do that search for us? Then we can find out whether or not Mercury's signing of the 2 producers to their two major regional offices was likely to have been related, to jump on the new successful trends of Detroit and Chicago Soul music.

Here is my SDF post on The Chalfontes' relationship to LeBaron Taylor, Myto Music and Golden World, and Andre Williams', Dave Hamilton's, Don Juan Mancha's, and Sonny Sanders' relationship to Mercury Records 1965 & 1966 Detroit Soul production: The Chalfontes 2 Mercury records have always been a quandary for me. I guessed that Dynamic Hitbound Productions was run by Dave Hamilton, or was a partnership between Hamilton and Andre Williams. But, I have since discovered that Lebaron Taylor was their manager. There is one Chalfontes' song [[out of 4) that has Myto Music sharing the publishing, with Detroit Sound Music. Doc Kyle's Detroit Sound record label and recording studio was started in 1967, LATER than The Chalfontes' 2 Mercury releases, which I believe, were released in late 1965 and early 1966. The first Detroit Sound label, with The Sequins' record, is listed on Discogs and 45 Cat as being released 1964. [[But it sounds as if it was recorded in '65). The Sequins' Detroit Sound record lists a "Taylor" as one of its 2 producers. Logic tells me that that, particular Taylor was LeBaron. The 2 Detroit Sound-published Chalfontes' songs are credited to "Dynamic Hit Bound Productions". The credits listed include B. Sharpley [[real name of Detroit DJ, LeBaron Taylor [[Bill Sharpley) on the non-Myto side. I think Dynamic HitBound Productions is a partnership of LeBaron Taylor and one of the other credited people on the record, and that company's music publishing company seems to have been Detroit Sound Music. Note the similarity between "Dynamic HitBound Productions" and LeBaron Taylor's later partnership with producer/label owner, Don Davis, in the similarly named "Solid Hitbound Productions". Sonny Sanders, who was working for Golden World at the beginning of that time, along with Andre Williams, Dave Hamilton, and Don Mancha, was the only other name on the NON-Myto shared publishing side, other than LeBaron Taylor's original name (B.Sharpley). The side on which Myto shared the publishing with Detroit Sound has Don[[Juan) Mancha as the writer. So, apparently Mancha's Bosses, Golden World, shared the publishing with Taylor, only because Mancha wrote the song. The only other credit on the NON-Myto side was to Sonny Sanders. So, maybe Dynamic Hitbound [[was so similar to Solid Hitbound because Taylor owned it alone, or Taylor was in partnership with Sanders). It's even more complicated than that, because Andre Williams, who produced both sides of the OTHER Chalfontes' Mercury record, had a regular production contract with Mercury records producing records by other Detroit artists [[such as Jimmy Holland and several others), as well as a few Chicago artists. On that other Chalfontes' record, Williams worked with Dave Hamilton on both sides. The music on both was published by Mercury's MRC Music. So it seems likely that Williams was the source of all three of these projects to Mercury [[the 3rd being the unreleased cut by Dave Hamilton listed as being published [[or shared publishing) by Myto on Grapevine's list of oddball Myto-published songs (most of which were released on non-Wingate labels). That Dave Hamilton Myto song was perhaps the background instrumental tracks for another Chalfontes' Mercury production or Little Ann Ric-Tic production? Does anyone here know of any connections Don Mancha had with Golden World? I remember Steve Mancha writing some Myto songs for Don Davis' Groovesville Records 1001-1003, who were published by Myto to pay Wingate for distributing Davis' label, and using Wingate's facilities while Davis was producing and writing for Wingate's artists productions. But, I can't remember ANY credits for Don Mancha on Wingates' labels' records. (I have since read Rob Moss' article on "The Story of Don Juan Mancha's Career", which, based on interviews with Mancha, mentions that he worked on several projects at Golden World just after Ed Wingate bought out Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records, for whom Mancha worked. He said that he worked on several record projects, a handful of which he got no credits. Several of those were the most successful, including "Agent Double O Soul". He mentioned that he wrote both sides of The Chalfontes' record that he got his one credit on.) I also can't remember, offhand, Sonny Sanders partnering with Andre Williams on Mercury any other Mercury projects (however, I suspect there were some others). But Williams seems to have had his production deal with Mercury run out of Mercury's Chicago office, to produce Chicago and Detroit Soul artist projects simulating "The Detroit Sound" and The Chicago Sound, approximately at the same time as Mercury gave Robert Bateman his contract to run a similar production out of their New York office. Sanders could have been the connection with Myto, although he wasn't a writer of the song, only listed as its arranger. The coincidence of Mercury seemingly making these 2 production deals to a current and former Detroit producer, both of whom worked at Motown for several years, looks suspiciously like that major national label, with offices in Chicago and New York, suddenly decided in 1965, when Motown broke out big, and many other Detroit Soul labels started popping up, to tap Detroit's plentiful now proven talent, so Mercury could take advantage of "The Detroit Soul Sound". And, with Williams still operating BOTH out of Detroit AND Chicago, they could also take advantage of the burgeoning "Chicago Soul Sound", as with his contacts in the Chicago Soul Scene, Williams could also bring his discovered talented production people and singing artists into Mercury's Chicago operation. I think that Williams' deal with Mercury was one of the main factors that led to Mercury starting up their new Blue Rock record label, to specialise in Chicago and Detroit Soul artists' releases. These would be supplemented recordings of New York-based artists produced in New York, by Robert Bateman, simulating "The Detroit Sound" using Motown's former Jobete Music New York Office's "House Band", they used to "simulate" Detroit's Motown Sound, on their production of demo records to be used by Motown's Detroit singers as guides to sing songs written by Jobete New York. That band, conducted by pianist Richard Tee (Ten Ryk), used some of New York's best Soul session players, including Gordon Edwards -bassist, Eric Gale - guitarist, Cornell Dupree - guitarist, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie on Drums, Etc.) all of whom had been taught "how to play in the Motown style". Bateman used them on most of his New York productions, working out of Mercury's New York office. He also had used them in recording many (if not most) of his non-Mercury mid and late '60s New York productions. So, it seems that Lebaron Taylor went to Andre Williams to get his group a contract with a national label. I bet they recorded it at United Sound. Or, maybe Golden World, and that's where the connection to Myto Music came in. Surely their 2nd record with the Myto published song, was recorded at Golden World. Andre Williams had opened up his new sub-office in Mercury's Chicago main headquarters, and probably already still had a small office in Detroit. He needed to scrape up a Detroit unit of regular free-lance production people. LeBaron Taylor came with The Chalfontes. Williams recruited Sonny Sanders [[from Golden World), and free-lance writer/producer, free-lancer Dave Hamilton who he may have also met at Golden World, or just approached him as an unattached free-lancer, like he did with Don Juan Mancha. I seem to faintly remember that Mancha worked on another Mercury production, or 2 with Williams (maybe on a Herman Griffin record?). Many of the Detroit and Chicago productions during Williams' time at Mercury were placed on Blue Rock, which was started to be a label dedicated to showcase the burgeoning Chicago and Detroit Soul Sounds". But several were also placed on Philips(Bobby Hutton, Richard Parker), and some even made it to the parent, Mercury label, such as ex-Motowner, Herman Griffin. But some were also placed on Smash(Luther Ingram, Daylighters, Trends, Naturals, Constellations,Tears) and even Fontana(James Phelps, Diane Cunningham), and even their Jazz label, Limelight Records(Otis Leavill). By 1967, both Bateman in New York, and Williams in Chicago, were gone from Mercury. Giving more credence to the theory that Bateman and Williams came in on a package deal. Their being dumped [[or having their contracts not renewed) was no surprise, as NONE of their projects produced national, or even regional hits, and only relatively few charted at all. That was despite picking up such well-respected artists as Johnnie Mae Matthews, Sir Mack Rice, Otis Leavill, Luther Ingram, and Timothy Wilson.

Thanks for pointing that out, Ken. Now I remember that Ron Murphy mentioned Rubin to me as the owner, along with Sussman. It's difficult to remember all these things told to me between 60 and 50 years ago. I must have remembered Sussman alone because only his name was on David's list (and I remembered that much more because my photographic memory is much stronger than my listening memory.

Yes, I see what you mean about them trying to capture the feeling of "The Motown Sound". That song has a lot of changes, some of it sounds like Motown, in parts of the vocal, in the snare drum roll, the string solo, some areas of the driving beat, some areas of the tune's melody, yet other parts sound like a New York, Philadelphia, or Chicago production. To me, it's not much like Motown, as say, a Golden World/Ric-Tic, Don Davis' labels,Thelma, Correc-Tone, Robert Bateman's other productions, Popcorn Wiley's productions, Dave Hamilton's productions, Joe Hunter and Fred Brown's productions, or other "Off-Motown" Detroit productions played by current or former Motown musicians, written by current or former Motown songwriters, or tutored by former or current Motown writers, or recorded by sound engineers who had worked for Motown previously, or had been in The Snakepit, and knew what they were doing, or recorded in The Snakepit before mid 1964, and/or recorded in recording studios whose setups and goals had been influenced by Motown's success, and so, copied much better than out of town would be copycats. I can't think of almost any productions outside Detroit that really sounded a LOT like Motown's classic sound, unless one or more Detroit music production person had been involved. For example, New York's Richard Tee and his band's "Motowny sound" came about from ex-Motowner Robert Bateman (becoming a New York producer, and training him to use "The Motown style" starting in 1963, as well as Raynoma Gordy doing the same also in that year, as she needed them to play music in The Motown style, to create demo records for current Motown singers to use when recording the songs written in her new Jobete Music New York Office-production facility. Chicago had some very good Motown style copying as well, mostly because of Barrett Strong and Sonny Sanders coming to Chicago to work with VJ, Okeh, and Brunswick/Dakar, and Mike Hanks working with USA, Katron (Bob Catron, Bill Ehrman (of Cortland/Witch/Ermine) Catron's boss, and Ric Williams wanting to use The Detroit Sound and using Mike Terry and Bridges/Knight/&Eaton, and Jo Armstead wanting the same for her Chicago labels, and Andre Williams and Jerry-o working out of both cities, and Carl Davis using Barrett Strong and Sonny Sanders, and his also recording at Chess, and having crossover use of songwriters with Chess, and Chess' Billy Davis having moved from his native Detroit, bringing several of his Detroit contacts and artists with his Check-Mate Records to Chicago, including Tony Clarke, Jackey Beavers, Willie Kendrick and others, and being influenced by Carln Davis' using Motown's strings style, and Carl Davis importing Motown musicians to Chicago to play on his records (i.e. Jackie Wilson's). But, to me, only Ric Williams' Zodiac/Aquarius/Boo, etc. and Jo Armstead's Giant/Globe/Wide World, sounded much like Motown, because Mike Terry was their producer, arranger and songwriter along with Bridges, Knight & Eaton. While most of Carl Davis' productions using The Funk Brothers, or songwriting from Detroiters sounded more like mixtures of The Chicago and Detroit Sounds. To me, only a few of Barrett Strongs songs written especially for Marvin Smith (Artistics) when they were at Okeh Records, sound truly like Motown "This Heart Of Mine", "I'll Come Running", and "So Much Love In My Heart". All 3 of those songs would have been right uop The Temptations' alley. During the 1970s and '80s, so many Soulies told me that this or that US East Coast (some Cameo records), or L.A. record sounded JUST like Motown. I never thought they did. To me, they were just New York, Philadelphia or L.A. uptempo Soul with fast or heavy beats. "At The Top Of The Stairs" sounds to me like East Coast - NOTHING like Motown. There WERE L.A. records that sounded to me like Motown, but almost ALL of them were on local labels but produced by Jobete Music's L.A. office production crew (who had been trained by Motown Detroit personnel, or using their examples, to produce Motown-like music for their written songs' demos to be made to coach the Detroit Motown singers to sing them). Or, if they were produced by L.A. NON-L.A. Motown personnel, they were people who were friends and/or previous colleagues of L.A. Motown personnel, or people influenced by them. Certainly, Hal Davis, Marc Gordon, Frank Wilson, Ed Cobb, Chester and Gary Pipkin, H.B. Barnum, and Willie Hutchison were trained by Detroit Motown personnel and/or given song examples in the main current Motown styles explaining what they wanted for their Detroit artists. Even The "casual" non-salaried L.A. free-lance writers and producers who sometimes sold a few songs to Jobete, wrote songs for them and even for their own labels, that sounded more like Motown than other writers and producers around the country that also wanted to emulate "The Motown Sound", but didn't have as good a handle on what made it sound like Motown. Even Jobete songs by L.A. DJ Herman Griffith (Joker), and Charles Wright (Later of The Watts 103rd St. Band) sounded like Motown. There were many L.A. productions that sounded like the Jobete songs sung by Mary Love, Brenda and Patrice Holloway, Gloria Jones, and Sandy Wynns. Trudell Records was an example. They had no official connection with Jobete L.A., but they were friendly with the writers and the demo and background singers. I think that "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" and "Let Me Know" by Mary Love, "Run One Flight of Stairs" by Gloria Jones, and "Just A Boy's Dream" by The Phonetics are all very Motownish. Another example: To me, Tobi Lark's Topper, Palmer, and USD records all sound a little like Motown, MORE like off-Motown Detroit, with the Topper records sounding MOST like Motown. While her Tobi Legend record sounds like New York (I never liked those 2 cuts), even though I like her voice very much, and all her Detroit cuts. I didn't like her New York-produced Jazz cuts, despite liking Jazz vocals.