Now this is just gonna be a bit of fun as I can't see there being a solid correct answer as we do not know exact available amounts but - using

X = Amount of copies out there

and

Y = Sale Price

....what do you reckon

Z (the highest grossing NS single for amount of copies available) would equal?

I suppose this is another way of asking the most common track that commands the highest price but there are some big price hitters out there whose low copy count but high gross price may undermine that theory.

That make sense?

(I am now wishing I hadn't thought of this but am going to post it anyway ;0)

Edited September 20, 201212 yr by Barry

Frank Beverly - Sassy - 1000+ copies at £200-250 each.

Epitome Of Sound - (Cream & Red) - 500+++ copies, at about £100-£150 each.

.. and of course Royal Esquires - Quantity? - As many as you want by the look of it - still going for £40-£60 a pop

Cheers

Mick

Re Frank Beverley on Sassy - is the b/w demo or issue rarer. JMs auction sold a b/w demo for £439 last week with felt pen marking on label. I ebayed a clean copy about 6 or 7 years ago for £310. There was a box of these b/w demos in Mansfield in the late 70s (or early 80s) as I got mine from a record shop wall for £2 presuming it was a boot.

Re Frank Beverley on Sassy - is the b/w demo or issue rarer. JMs auction sold a b/w demo for £439 last week with felt pen marking on label. I ebayed a clean copy about 6 or 7 years ago for £310. There was a box of these b/w demos in Mansfield in the late 70s (or early 80s) as I got mine from a record shop wall for £2 presuming it was a boot.

I asked Neil Rushton a year or so back about that - when he got the stock from Billy Jackson, there were "lots" of demos amongst them. Clearly the Issues were the majority, but out of the 1000+ he had there may have been more than a few. He did say it was about xyz% demos (both B sides) but I can't remember how many he estimated. I've got a feeling it was about 30% demos, but I may be wrong. I was hoping to see him tonight, but won't see him until next week, so I'll see if he remembers (if I remember to ask, that is !!)

Cheers

Mick

most of the copies are probably ok still...after all these years rca promo`s still keep comin over they probably pressed nearer 5000 than 1000

It'd be worth researching to see what kind of promo runs were being done by the majors between 1965 to 1975. You know, try and find an ex promo guy from that period who knows his stuff. Generally, promo runs are decided by the key promotion personnel at the time and the majors knew they had a competitive advantage simply by dint of their size, clout in the market and national distribution capability. Plus, some companies were run more effectively then others in terms of controlling promotional expenses.

As an example, the most successful U.S. majors from '65 to '75 were Columbia and Warners who were constantly breaking new million-selling acts, whilst the least successful US majors were probably RCA and EMI, who couldn't break new acts to save their lives, but had a safety net with heritage acts like Elvis, the Beatles and the Beach Boys from pre '65 but which still sold in their millions.

Corporate strategy is another key factor. Warners and Columbia were scoring with rock and pop acts and had operations which were untouchable in those markets, EMI, I think, were strong in back catalogue and C&W, RCA were selling truckloads of Elvis but very little else and Motown and Stax were cleaning up with black music. So Dave's point about how many promos RCA pressed is a good one. RCA at the time could fling a lot of stuff out there and hope that some of 'em may stick. It's very possible that if RCA had decided to really commit to black music (and they had Sam Cooke in the 50's and 60's remember), then they'd probably be pretty liberal about 'looking after' the market they were trying to muscle in on. Plus, technically, they'd be competing with Motown and Stax, who never knowingly under-pressed LOL, so it's entirely possible that RCA could do anywhere between 1-5K promo runs if they wanted to compete with Motown and Stax.

I've found incredible runs of RCA promos on different trips all the way from L.A., Texas, Denver, Terre Haute, Nashville, Madison, Augusta and South Carolina. RCA pumped those promos EVERYWHERE. I always knew that if I bumped into, say, a Lorraine Chandler, Metros or Naked Truth RCA promo somewhere, then there was a king-hell opportunity to find others. Plus, every dealer seemed to regularly have decent RCA goodies.

So I'm really curious about what kind of promo numbers they pressed around that time. We all know that RCA black issues are like gold-dust compared to the white promos but exactly how many were there?

Also, I think people under-estimate the rarity of some of the later RCA stuff from the 70's. All the european guys love that Jon Lucien RCA promo EP but I've also heard 2 different late 70's RCA promos by unknown acts which I've never seen in my life and which are both brilliant. And I can't find 'em anywhere grrr...........

I think RCA promos started to get scarcer from Herb Ward onwards.......

Great thread!

Ian D

As an example, the most successful U.S. majors from '65 to '75 were Columbia and Warners who were constantly breaking new million-selling acts, whilst the least successful US majors were probably RCA and EMI, who couldn't break new acts to save their lives, but had a safety net with heritage acts like Elvis, the Beatles and the Beach Boys from pre '65 but which still sold in their millions.

RCA had one of the most successful rock bands of the era, Jefferson Airplane/Starship. "Miracles" was probably the biggest selling record of the year when it came out. They also had the Guess Who - another multiple top 10 selling act during their hit period or 1969-72 (and a couple hits later on). They also sold a ton of country records - I would guess they were in the top 3 of country labels. They were not hurting, but it is somewhat true they did not really do well with soul and rock other than the standard bearers.

RCA had one of the most successful rock bands of the era, Jefferson Airplane/Starship. "Miracles" was probably the biggest selling record of the year when it came out. They also had the Guess Who - another multiple top 10 selling act during their hit period or 1969-72 (and a couple hits later on). They also sold a ton of country records - I would guess they were in the top 3 of country labels. They were not hurting, but it is somewhat true they did not really do well with soul and rock other than the standard bearers.

Yeah, I hear you George, but compared to the non-stop barrage of numerous million-sellers that Columbia and Warners were scoring it was small potatoes at the time. I realised this loud and clear when I was running Simply Vinyl - a heavyweight vinyl album re-issue company in the late 90's. We did "Surrealistic Pillow" - Jefferson Airplane, a couple of Lou Reed's, a slew of Elvis releases and some other bits and bobs, but RCA was kinda sparse compared to Warners and Columbia where there was almost an embarassment of riches for that market.

The whole C&W market is another that I don't know much about. Over the years I've maybe suggested that EMI and RCA were lacking in terms of mega-sellers in Pop and Rock, only to have someone come back at me and say stuff like, "oh but they were HUGE in C&W" etc, etc. But I've never really known exactly how huge the C&W market is.

The only way that I could ever gauge it, was by the sheer amount of Merle Haggard and Ferlin Husky releases I had to plough through when I was looking for Soul.

When I went to House Of Sounds in Philadelphia, I didn't stick around long as the numerous amount of huge crates which seemed to be filled with C&W releases meant that I would have wasted hours going through C&W crap just to get to anything decent. I remember thinking at the time, how many f*ckin' C&W records could they possibly make? The sheer amount was staggering. If they got a C&W hit could they sell half a million in Tennessee alone I wondered........

Ian D

RCA had one of the most successful rock bands of the era, Jefferson Airplane/Starship. "Miracles" was probably the biggest selling record of the year when it came out. They also had the Guess Who - another multiple top 10 selling act during their hit period or 1969-72 (and a couple hits later on). They also sold a ton of country records - I would guess they were in the top 3 of country labels. They were not hurting, but it is somewhat true they did not really do well with soul and rock other than the standard bearers.

and dont forget john denver who was huge from 1971 onwards,,soul wise the best rca could hope for were the main ingredient and new birth

and dont forget john denver who was huge from 1971 onwards,,soul wise the best rca could hope for were the main ingredient and new birth

hues corporation "rock the boat" was a huge hit. too bad every other record they released (except maybe the first funky one on liberty) is terrible

hues corporation "rock the boat" was a huge hit. too bad every other record they released (except maybe the first funky one on liberty) is terrible

That was one of the songs that launched the disco era - it was sonic wallpaper for months. They had another record called "Freedom for the Stallion" (also recorded by Three Dog Night) which I seem to be one of the only people in the world who remembers hearing it on the radio back in 1974. I dig the Liberty record - the backing band on it is great, must be the LA version of the Funk Brothers or the Wrecking Crew.

RCA did fine in the so called MOR market - along with John Denver (who must be one of the top 20 selling artists of the 1970s) they had Perry Como. The most prized 45 in my collection (other than the Alarm Clocks and maybe the Vikings) is a Perry Como 45 with RCA sleeve on which someone wrote detailed info about when their cats or dogs got sick and they had to be euthanized....

If you read trade mags from the times you can see how big country music was. Sales wise I'd say it was on a par with soul music, although the biggest soul records sold a lot more than the biggest country ones. I'm talking about overall market.

Always thought that Seven Souls - I Still Love You commands a price that exceeds it's availability

'chorleybloke'

Jack Montgomery would be in the running too, there seems to have been one on eBay every week for the last 15 years and the price is still quite healthy. How would that compare I wonder with 20 Larry Clintons?

Cheers

Pete

issue or demos

'chorleybloke'

Jack Montgomery would be in the running too, there seems to have been one on eBay every week for the last 15 years and the price is still quite healthy. How would that compare I wonder with 20 Larry Clintons?

Cheers

Pete

issue or demos

Jack Montgomery was a hit in Chicago. I used to find it in 10 cent bins at different stores because they didn't know some random singer on scepter (a mostly pop label) would be anything.

in the 1970`s the jack montgomery was only 2.50 an not, IMO, in the style of the day hich included larry santos, french fries, vibrations stompers. Indeed i picked up a sinceres "girl i love you" for 10p. the internet, among other areas, has increased availability with demand maintaining the price and a good example of what we are talking about. on could say the vibrations "cause your mine" but you dont see as many. the frankie beverly "because of my heart " was 45 quid in those days ...... demand drove it to 2000 quid almost and now as a few have turned up it has reduced, but a neat tune still. incidently, barnaby bye "cant live this way" was 10 quid and on atlantic, again supplty and demand driving the cost.

Often wondered if your big collectors-in the know crowd, kept copies of tunes back delibrately to keep them rare and top dollar price when selling.

Yes like the Naughty Boy by Jackie Day!! There were copies found in a big record find some years back in Sacramento, now were did they all go?

Edited September 27, 201212 yr by Guest

"You've Been Leading Me On" - The Steinways - Oliver.

Goes for over £200, but there has been a constant supply for years and years!

Good Northern Soul record but there must be loads of copies in collections!

X = Amount of copies out there

One factor that should be considered, is that a lot of copies could be the same ones sold again and again.

That makes it look like there are more copies than there really are.

Re Frank Beverley on Sassy - is the b/w demo or issue rarer. JMs auction sold a b/w demo for £439 last week with felt pen marking on label. I ebayed a clean copy about 6 or 7 years ago for £310. There was a box of these b/w demos in Mansfield in the late 70s (or early 80s) as I got mine from a record shop wall for £2 presuming it was a boot.

Would that be Vallances Dean?I got a picture me gone orig i think it was- Steve L will know.I would'nt imagine Phil at Syd Booth's missing out on those. lol.

Would that be Vallances Dean?I got a picture me gone orig i think it was- Steve L will know.I would'nt imagine Phil at Syd Booth's missing out on those. lol.

Yes it was mate, I've got your madeline bell still with the original sleeve saying"original copies" ( must have been on the wall)

Dont know if that was where Huzij got his frank beverley from (also now in my box ) although thats an issue

Edited September 27, 201212 yr by Steve L

I asked Neil Rushton a year or so back about that - when he got the stock from Billy Jackson, there were "lots" of demos amongst them. Clearly the Issues were the majority, but out of the 1000+ he had there may have been more than a few. He did say it was about xyz% demos (both B sides) but I can't remember how many he estimated. I've got a feeling it was about 30% demos, but I may be wrong. I was hoping to see him tonight, but won't see him until next week, so I'll see if he remembers (if I remember to ask, that is !!)

Cheers

Mick

I found between 800 and 900 copies on Sassy when I went to Billy Jackson's apartment in New York.

Honestly cannot remember how many were demos, but there were more issues than demos.

I think Billy had kept hold of most of his manufacturing run, as when he did Gamble/Huff for the release on Gamble, it was on basis that he did not distribute it.

Sold them for £3 mail order, advertised in Black Echoes, and wholesaled loads of them @ £1.50.

Gary Holyman tells a great story how we used them one night for currency in a game of poker.

At this point (well over the last few years) I would say Willie Kendrick on RCA promo.

Comes up on average once a month on ebay and still sells for a handful of bricks.

LOOK - there is one now!

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390573293471?clk_rvr_id=467400709104

 

Conversely records that are hard to find but don't cost the earth (in theory).

Well try finding Kenny Ballard - Down to my last heartbreak on Dynamo

or, while not northern, Pat Cooley More Love on Future Stars

Or Ruby Andrews - Guess that don't make me a loser on Zodiac

Been looking for these for ages

I remember these being plentifull & cheap in the early seventies, they know still bring fairly high prices:

 

1) Patti & the Emblems - Gonna love you a long long time - Kapp Demo (A on either side.)

2) Johnny Howard - The chase is on - Bashie Demo.

3) Joannne courcey - I got the power - Twirl Demo.

4)  Charades - Key to my Happiness - MGM Demo.

5) Christine Cooper - Heartaches away my boy - Parkway Demo.

 

And later on two "Modern" ones that were again in quantity, but initially brought high prices:

 

6) Futures - Party time man - P.I.R.

7) Ace Spectrum - Dont send nobody else - Atlantic.

Pat Cooley More Love on Future Stars

 

The other side's got a great version "Ain't Gonna Share Your Love"

I would add the Chandlers to this list and to a slightly lesser degree Montclairs as always copies up for sale but very difficult to find in really good condition.

 

I would also add that a lot of these records are highly regarded and kept in collections.Now think how many collectors out there in UK alone.Then add Europe,Japan and them Johnny come latelys the Yanks (only joking) and you can see why prices hold.

I can remember paying 6 quid for Kelly Garrett "Love's The Only Answer" and 15 for Donna King "Take Me Home" both from JM, still in my possession!!

Mind you buying top notch originals today can ruin your wealth!!