Any ideas?

I am convinced they were not the Fontana incarnations (of which there were two groups).

In fact I think they may have been some local Detroit touring backing singers that Edwin Starr put together with his then tour manager Don Mancha?

This would explain the writer credits at least.

Anyone know for sure?

Also what's the story on Garrison 3004 being a Billy Prophet 45? I saw this on Uncle Dave Rimmers site? Again anyone have any info on this?

Thanks

Steve

The Honeybees on Garrison sounds like it has a different lead vocalist for either side, Never In A Million Years singer is far less harsh than the other side's vocalist. Both great though.

At a not so wild guess its the same group that recorded a year earlier as The Honey Bees on New York based Academy Records. Which would make it the same group that recorded another two years earlier on Pentagon Records.

Dennis Coffey couldn't remember, before you try that avenue...don't think I ever asked Mike Theodore though, mind! One thought just flashed through my mind...agree with Pete about the probability of two diffferent lead vocalists...and that could also be the case on Irene & The Scotts on Smash...both discs are Theo-Coff productions. The lead on 'Stuck On You Baby' is maybe too gruff, but the lead on the flipside, 'Why Do You Treat Me Like You Do' is similar to the one on 'Never In A Million years', as I recall. Gentlemen, dig the discs out and compare, as you never know!

At Derby last year for Brothers of Soul one of the guys said they were the Andantes.

Oops.I mean at Coventry last year.

Any ideas?

I am convinced they were not the Fontana incarnations (of which there were two groups).

In fact I think they may have been some local Detroit touring backing singers that Edwin Starr put together with his then tour manager Don Mancha?

This would explain the writer credits at least.

Anyone know for sure?

Also what's the story on Garrison 3004 being a Billy Prophet 45? I saw this on Uncle Dave Rimmers site? Again anyone have any info on this?

Thanks

Steve

Steve ain,t you fed up with wild uninformed speculation

At a not so wild guess its the same group that recorded a year earlier as The Honey Bees on New York based Academy Records. Which would make it the same group that recorded another two years earlier on Pentagon Records.

blimey you're a HIVE of information

Yes lots of speculation gordon, but does anyone know for sure?

Marc I don't think they are the same Honey Bees on Acadamy.

As for The Andantes? Interesting....

Keep em rolling....

Would they be an incarnation of Honey and the Bees?

Checked Manship and he has about ten songs by this group (If they are all the same).

I've another, not on his site, called - we belong together. Nice 60s girl group thing.

At Derby last year for Brothers of Soul one of the guys said they were the Andantes.

Fred Bridges always stated that this was a uncredited Brothers OF Soul composition.

No Mikey Honey & The Bees were a Philly act, totally different and their records and career is well documented.

In the past people assumed that the Honey Bees on Garrison were the Fontana group (partly The Cookies and partly some others etc seems like they just got different girls to use the name).

The Garrison girls are the ones I am interested in identifying.

Honey & The Bees on Academy, who started out as The Creations in late '64, were Fannie Lee Cobb, Rita Graves & Lulu Martin .. their 45s were released in '65 ... 'Two Can Play The Same Game' in February and 'Be Yourself' in May.

Honey & The Bees on Arctic & Josie were Cassandra Ann Wooten, Gwendolyn Oliver, Jean Davis and Nadine Felder ... Cassandra & Gwendolyn recorded as the Superiorettes in '62, were joined by Jean & Nadine in '65 and recoded as the Yum Yums ... they joined Arctic in '66 as Honey & The Bees

I'll mail Louvain Demps, of the Andantes, to see if she can cast any light on the matter

Could somebody ask Pat Lewis ?

Andy

Spoke to Fred Bridges about this when the guys performed over here last year. He told me the Honeybees on Garrison

were the Andantes.

Rich

Honey & The Bees on Academy, who started out as The Creations in late '64, were Fannie Lee Cobb, Rita Graves & Lulu Martin .. their 45s were released in '65 ... 'Two Can Play The Same Game' in February and 'Be Yourself' in May.

Honey & The Bees on Arctic & Josie were Cassandra Ann Wooten, Gwendolyn Oliver, Jean Davis and Nadine Felder ... Cassandra & Gwendolyn recorded as the Superiorettes in '62, were joined by Jean & Nadine in '65 and recoded as the Yum Yums ... they joined Arctic in '66 as Honey & The Bees

I'll mail Louvain Demps, of the Andantes, to see if she can cast any light on the matter

Could somebody ask Pat Lewis ?

Andy

Thanks Andy, look forward to response....I'll ask Pat.

Spoke to Fred Bridges about this when the guys performed over here last year. He told me the Honeybees on Garrison

were the Andantes.

Rich

Thanks Rich. Interesting that Fred is quite adamant about this....

We may be getting closer to solving.

Anyone know anything about Billy Prophet on Garrison?

Yes lots of speculation gordon, but does anyone know for sure?

Marc I don't think they are the same Honey Bees on Acadamy.

As for The Andantes? Interesting....

Keep em rolling....

the original first recording line up of the andantes was jackie hines, louvain demps and marlene barrow. its an interesting thought to imagine the andantes were the honeybees on garrison, an interesting thought especially after hearing some of the records again they sang background on like "Agent OO Soul", "Ask The Lonely" etc you get the impression their voices are indeed not too far away from the sound of "never in a million years". still it would be a big coincedence to have two groups recording under the same name at lmost the same time in new york, wouldnt it ?

is anyone in contact with any of the three members of the andantes TO GET A CONFIRMATION FROM THEM INSTEAD OF WILD GUESSES ? from seeing them on the road with the funk brothers a couple of years ago I understand that they are thankfully still with us and in the music business ?

I'll mail Louvain Demps, of the Andantes, to see if she can cast any light on the matter

Andy

GREAT, looking forward to any information she hopefully can give you.

Also, although the academy label mentioned has a new york address, it was 100% a philly production if you look at the credits (ben-lee, phil hurtt, etc.). Other philly records (e.g. ann byers) came out on this academy. The pentagon group is an unrelated White group.

There were several other records by other honey bees groups not mentioned in this thread btw (but not related).

Honey & The Bees on Academy, who started out as The Creations in late '64, were Fannie Lee Cobb, Rita Graves & Lulu Martin .. their 45s were released in '65 ... 'Two Can Play The Same Game' in February and 'Be Yourself' in May.

Honey & The Bees on Arctic & Josie were Cassandra Ann Wooten, Gwendolyn Oliver, Jean Davis and Nadine Felder ... Cassandra & Gwendolyn recorded as the Superiorettes in '62, were joined by Jean & Nadine in '65 and recoded as the Yum Yums ... they joined Arctic in '66 as Honey & The Bees

I'll mail Louvain Demps, of the Andantes, to see if she can cast any light on the matter

Could somebody ask Pat Lewis ?

Andy

Honey & The Bees on Arctic & Josie were Cassandra Ann Wooten, Gwendolyn Oliver, Jean Davis and Nadine Felder .....

....... this group backed up many other artists on their Arctic recording session. For instance, they provide backing vocals on the Kenny Hamber Arctic cuts.

Edited October 11, 201212 yr by Roburt

still it would be a big coincedence to have two groups recording under the same name at lmost the same time in new york, wouldnt it ?

is anyone in contact with any of the three members of the andantes TO GET A CONFIRMATION FROM THEM INSTEAD OF WILD GUESSES ? from seeing them on the road with the funk brothers a couple of years ago I understand that they are thankfully still with us and in the music business ?

Yes I agree, these wild guesses are becoming a way of life. If people don't know they just make something up.....and if no one says anything, it then becomes "fact".... I've emailed Pat and Andy has emailed Louvain. Hopefully that will confirm the Andantes story that fred Bridges said (or squash it).

And Marc the HoneyBees on Garrison was recorded in Detroit not New York. United Sound Studios.

Edited October 11, 201212 yr by Steve G

Also, although the academy label mentioned has a new york address, it was 100% a philly production if you look at the credits (ben-lee, phil hurtt, etc.).

do you think they leased in the production skills of those people you mention or do you believe its and out and out philly recording ? which if you do would mean there were two pihlly groups of teh same name (instead of two nyc groups) ?

And Marc the HoneyBees on Garrison was recorded in Detroit not New York. United Sound Studios.

yes of course, but released on a nyc label which is what I wanted to point out.

yes of course, but released on a nyc label which is what I wanted to point out.

Right but that's not surprising since the mission statement of Pete Garris was to "bring in new R&B masters from around the country". Of all Garrisons releases only one was truly from the NY area.

do you think they leased in the production skills of those people you mention or do you believe its and out and out philly recording ? which if you do would mean there were two pihlly groups of teh same name (instead of two nyc groups) ?

I'm pretty sure they were two different philly groups with that name -- there's probably some story about how the name got passed down. I can't think of any outside Ben-Lee production, they helped define the early philly soul sound (also has philly writers). Also, Ann Byers is definitely from philly and is on the label, so there's another example where the record was just placed on the label.

Right but that's not surprising since the mission statement of Pete Garris was to "bring in new R&B masters from around the country". Of all Garrisons releases only one was truly from the NY area.

the traits are even the texas group

the HoneyBees on Garrison was recorded in Detroit not New York. United Sound Studios.

Is that 100%...not Golden World or Tera-Shirma?

I am sure I read it on Soulful Detroit Flynny...

Two Garrisons in fact NY area records, Jimmy Raye and Alan Bruce.

I am sure I read it on Soulful Detroit Flynny...

Goes and checks...found a piece stating the backing track for 'Never In A Million Years' was recorded down at United Sound, but sadly no mention of where the vocal was laid down...or indeed who they were.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web12-fred-bridges/fred-bridges-text/05-fb-Wingate-bratton.htm

Goes and checks...found a piece stating the backing track for 'Never In A Million Years' was recorded down at United Sound

https://soulfuldetroi...ate-bratton.htm

which might it explain why theres also a recorded instrumental of "NIAMY" by Jack Montgomery on Barracuda Records, Detroit.

Two Garrisons in fact NY area records, Jimmy Raye and Alan Bruce.

"Jimmie (RAy) contacted a friend in Pittsburg. Al Gee, a DJ who had many New York City contacts.

He directed Jimmie to meet with Matt Parson who was working at Scepter Records in production and promotion.

Matt got Jimmie a deal with the label. Pete Garrison released "You Must Be Losing Your Mind" b/w "For The Sake Of Love."

After a few weeks the Garrison record was well distributed down the east coast."

For more intersting read on Mr. Soulspectacular aka Jimmy Raye go to https://www.jimmieraye.com/home.html

Jimmie contacted a friend in Pittsburg. Al Gee, a DJ who had many New York City contacts. He directed Jimmie to meet with Matt Parson who was working at Scepter Records in production and promotion. Matt got Jimmie a deal with the label. Pete Garrison released "You Must Be Losing Your Mind" b/w "For The Sake Of Love." After a few weeks the Garrison record was well distributed down the east coast.

Indeed, it's on Jimmy's own website. which is pretty good I agree...Jimmy was the only artist to sign a recording deal with the label, the rest were brought in masters.....Steve

Edited October 11, 201212 yr by Steve G

ACADEMY #14 -- May 65

WMBM Miami -- July 68

Honey & the Bees (Josie)

Personal Mangement -- Jimmy Bishop & Penguin Artists

Booking Agent -- QBC

I've put a call out to ask Marlene & Jackie as well ... Louvain, I'm sure, will respond at some point

Andy

Thanks Andy. No word from Pat yet.

Steve

Personal Mangement -- Jimmy Bishop & Penguin Artists

this is a very good name for a management company

also, just to point it out, candace love also does "never in a million years" on the chicago aquarius label produced by the brothers of soul

also, just to point it out, candace love also does "never in a million years" on the chicago aquarius label produced by the brothers of soul

The Candace Love also sounds like a Detroit background track (Bridges/Knight/Eaton may have had that recorded in Detroit), but, I think it's not the same as The Honey Bees' track on Garrison.

Some Garrison related info ...............

The Garrison label was launched in early December 1966

Earl Harrison's big 45 (Garrison #3001 / 50620) on the label hit the stores (& the charts) in Jan 67.

The Honey Bees 45 (Garrison #3005 / 50642) had to be released around March to June of 1967 .....

... weren't the Andantes very busy at Motown at that time ??

... AND ... Honey & the Bees were definitely busy in Philly recording studios (on Arctic sessions) during that period.

There was a Honey Bees playing gigs in Las Vegas in May 71. I doubt this was the same group though.

There were also groups who used the name in the 1950's & 1970's.

the honeybees on garrison were the......tams during their cross dressing phase

Edited October 12, 201212 yr by gordon russell

the honeybees on garrison were the......tams during their cross dressing phase

Wrong. The Tams went out as 'the Girls' when x-dressing. They did gigs on the beach scene in the 60's.

The Honeybees were really the Temptations in drag !!

While that info is fresh in my mind; think I'll add it to the group's Wikipedia pages

Edited October 12, 201212 yr by Roburt

Louvain has responded and I have summarised that response below. Not heard from Jackie or Marlene yet.

"Hi, I have taken a close listen. I don't know who the Honey Bees are (really). It sounds like an early session (outside (Motown) session) of The Andantes with a lead singer.

Never in a Million years.......sounds like Andantes and (perhaps) Lorraine Chandler

Let's get back together........sounds like Andantes and another (?) lead

Please understand, along with Motown, there were countless other studios that we worked with and many are the very early days. I do not want to give credit where it had not been earned. It is so easy to make a mistake, reason being........everyone back then was sort of tying to copy styles, not only of lead singers, but background vocals."

I have written back as I failed to tell her that Fred Bridges has stated it is the Andantes and our belief is that one of them handled lead vocals. Louvain clearly doesn't recognise the lead singer(s) which, if it was one of the girls, I would have thought she would have known instantly.

Andy

Some Garrison related info ...............

The Garrison label was launched in early December 1966

Earl Harrison's big 45 (Garrison #3001 / 50620) on the label hit the stores (& the charts) in Jan 67.

The Honey Bees 45 (Garrison #3005 / 50642) had to be released around March to June of 1967 .....

... weren't the Andantes very busy at Motown at that time ??

... AND ... Honey & the Bees were definitely busy in Philly recording studios (on Arctic sessions) during that period.

There was a Honey Bees playing gigs in Las Vegas in May 71. I doubt this was the same group though.

There were also groups who used the name in the 1950's & 1970's.

That clipping is weird because on the right it mentions Emerson Lake & Palmer but they didn't release an album until the 1970's...so is it a composite of two different articles? Surely not from the 60's.

I think it's the same lead vocalist on both sides of the Garrison single, just singing harsher on "Let's Get Back Together" and sweeter on "Never In A Million Years".

Surprised no-one's mentioned the very prominent male backing vocals on the (Edwin Starr penned) topside. I wonder of anyone's ever asked Dennis Coffey about the possible identity of this group? Also has there ever been any evidence of a stock copy of the 45?

Whatever the answer is to these questions it's still a great record and one I wish I'd bought when it was still relatively cheap.

I think it's the same lead vocalist on both sides of the Garrison single, just singing harsher on "Let's Get Back Together" and sweeter on "Never In A Million Years".

Surprised no-one's mentioned the very prominent male backing vocals on the (Edwin Starr penned) topside. I wonder of anyone's ever asked Dennis Coffey about the possible identity of this group? Also has there ever been any evidence of a stock copy of the 45?

Whatever the answer is to these questions it's still a great record and one I wish I'd bought when it was still relatively cheap.

Dave Flynn has already stated he has asked Dennis Coffey Gareth. And he couldnt remember.

The voice of the lead sounds like a combination of Barbara Lewis and Ruby Andrews (not suggesting it's either of these two, I don't recognize the sound at all).

That clipping is weird because on the right it mentions Emerson Lake & Palmer but they didn't release an album until the 1970's...so is it a composite of two different articles? Surely not from the 60's.

Pete, the dates are listed in my text .... L to R: Dec 66 / Jan 67 / May 71

Pete, the dates are listed in my text .... L to R: Dec 66 / Jan 67 / May 71

Yeah sorry, I thought they were all supposed to be 66

hi the honeybees recorded on roxbury (dream express) 1976

garrison (let"s get back together)

barracuda (backing jack montgomery)

fontana(you turn me on)1964

she dont deserve you 1964

the honeybees recorded on roxbury (dream express) 1976

That set of Honey Bees were UK based.

Their producers were Richard Hewson & Phil Swern who worked with the likes of the Pearls (1972), R & J Stone, Bryan Taylor, etc.

Hewson led the RAH Band