Does anybody know how many orig copies of this Mr M's biggie were there ?

Does anybody know how many orig copies of this Mr M's biggie were there ?

Mr. M's? Was a big room monster. Must have been at least 500 arrive via Soul Bowl. Still very very hard to tell original from reissue though.

orig is high quality thin flexi vinyl with a F/W scribed in a certain position in run out

I do have an orig copy of this

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by soulghost

orig is high quality thin flexi vinyl with a F/W scribed in a certain position in run out

Says John Manship....

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by Pete S

Says John Manship....

say JM what is meant by that comment ?

say JM what is meant by that comment ?

Do you want to know about the record or are you just trying to pick an argument with me, I answered your question so what's your problem?

Do you want to know about the record or are you just trying to pick an argument with me, I answered your question so what's your problem?

no i'm not tryin to pick an argument with you

but it was'nt answering my question sorry

i have seen countless boots of this record and i have never seen this thin vinyl copy before so all i was doing was asking a genuine question

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by soulghost

no i'm not tryin to pick an argument with you

but it was'nt answering my question sorry

i have seen countless boots of this record and i have never seen this thin vinyl copy before so all i was doing was asking a

genuine question

I mentioned Manship because he was the one saying it was flexi vinyl but both me and Paul Clifford had the record before it was pressed and neither of us remember it being flexi or having that stamp, so I actually launched a topic on it a few months back, the link is above.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

I have a proper copy - One of those, If you hold it with the number at the bottom th F/W is scratched in at 10:0 Clock ( something like that !! )

I mentioned Manship because he was the one saying it was flexi vinyl but both me and Paul Clifford had the record before it was pressed and neither of us remember it being flexi or having that stamp, so I actually launched a topic on it a few months back, the link is above.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

IT's not got any stamp in run out just F/W scribed not frankford & wayne stamp

I have a proper copy - One of those, If you hold it with the number at the bottom th F/W is scratched in at 10:0 Clock ( something like that !! )

that's about right

and the vinyl is thinner than a normal record

thats 4 copies @ mo

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by soulghost

The thing is that puzzles me about this, if you look at that link I put up in post number 4.

There is absolutely no way they did two separate bootleg pressings of this, it just wasn't popular enough and there were a lot of originals around anyway.

I think that pressing with the lighter yellow label is the fake, but the darker one is a 'second' original.

I do, honestly.

IT's not got any stamp in run out just F/W scribed not frankford & wayne stamp

not all original's had Frankford & Wayne stamped in run out's imo

The thing is that puzzles me about this, if you look at that link I put up in post number 4.

There is absolutely no way they did two separate bootleg pressings of this, it just wasn't popular enough and there were a lot of originals around anyway.

I think that pressing with the lighter yellow label is the fake, but the darker one is a 'second' original.

I do, honestly.

could there be a legit reissue then the boot which as got a lot of pin holes in the vinyl run out grooves?

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by soulghost

could there be a legit reissue then the boot which as got a lot of pin holes in the vinyl run out grooves?

My honest thought was that at first they were selling the big backstock of originals for the price of pressings. People may not remember but in late 1977 things like The Admirations (Paree), John Bowie, Ringleaders, these were all found in such numbers that they were sold in shops like Pep's, for £2 and £3 each. I think the first batch of 7 Dwarfs were real then someone did a boot of it. With lighter yellow labels.

Post number 3 gives the full JM auction description. I have a Boot and Original to compare. The Boot is a darker yellow than the original. If you hold the Boot with the scratched in matrix 1168 A @ 6o'clock the F/W mark is @ 3 o'clock.

No idea how many copies. I think it may be one of those records in demand by other collectors as well.

I agree with Pete about there being loads of certain things available late 70's. Add Frank Beverly on Sassy to Pete's list (either £3 or £5)

Cheers

Kev Bod.

Post number 3 gives the full JM auction description. I have a Boot and Original to compare. The Boot is a darker yellow than the original. If you hold the Boot with the scratched in matrix 1168 A @ 6o'clock the F/W mark is @ 3 o'clock.

But Kev isn't the boot NOT supposed to have a scratched in F/W?

But Kev isn't the boot NOT supposed to have a scratched in F/W?

Just had another look Pete. It looks like someone has "added" the F/W on this Boot to give credability!! It looks as if it's been scratched in with a PIN as it's a bit more prominent than the other markings!!

I got it from ebay a few years ago. Buyer described it as a boot and I didn't take much interest ( well you wouldn't when the postage is as much as the record!!)

Cheers

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by bo diddley

I have a proper copy - One of those, If you hold it with the number at the bottom th F/W is scratched in at 10:0 Clock ( something like that !! )

that's the number on record label @ 3 oclock not in run out ?

Edited October 20, 201212 yr by soulghost

that's the number on record label @ 3 oclock not in run out ?

Yes, the number on the Label. There's a precise place the F/W is scratched, I think at 10:00

Yes, the number on the Label. There's a precise place the F/W is scratched, I think at 10:00

great both of us on same wave length

surely you can only give the marks in the run-out in relation to other marks there in .you couldn't guarantee that all the labels are on the records in exactly the same possition unless the're moulded labels ?

surely you can only give the marks in the run-out in relation to other marks there in .you couldn't guarantee that all the labels are on the records in exactly the same possition unless the're moulded labels ?

That's very true. Or makes sense anyway.

great both of us on same wave length

spot on

Post number 3 gives the full JM auction description. I have a Boot and Original to compare. The Boot is a darker yellow than the original. If you hold the Boot with the scratched in matrix 1168 A @ 6o'clock the F/W mark is @ 3 o'clock.

No idea how many copies. I think it may be one of those records in demand by other collectors as well.

I agree with Pete about there being loads of certain things available late 70's. Add Frank Beverly on Sassy to Pete's list (either £3 or £5)

Cheers

Kev Bod.

I'm glad you put that about the boot being darker. I have a definite original somewhere and it is without doubt a lighter yellow label. It's a minter too

Steve

surely you can only give the marks in the run-out in relation to other marks there in .you couldn't guarantee that all the labels are on the records in exactly the same possition unless the're moulded labels ?

dave

As the record in question the the label is paper moulded over vinyl all the marks are all in the same place the labels in the same position it just can't by hit and miss methods used by record plants

dave

As the record in question the the label is paper moulded over vinyl all the marks are all in the same place the labels in the same position it just can't by hit and miss methods used by record plants

So if say the logo was at 12 0 clock on the label, then all copies dropping to be pressed will stay in that position?

This can only be done by using part of the matrix or a stamp as reference ignoring the label surely? Thats how its put in JMs book e.g. if you hold the stamp at 6 0'clock x will be at 3 and y will be at 9 o'clock

Just realised someones already said that but i've typed it so...

So if say the logo was at 12 0 clock on the label, then all copies dropping to be pressed will stay in that position?

pete

as the marks in run out are hand scribed in i would say you would be right on where logo would be @12 o'clock the scriber would turn the record do this as we know there's a small run of originals

hi

picked up sevaral copys of the label owner in philly about 1995 for 5$ stone mint

was told all originals were pressed off centre and they have a frankford wayne stamp in run out

sold one to pat brady also steve smith who is on here

sid

^{Thought I had an orig of this but doesn't seem to be very clear. So just to throw into the mix mine is:}

^{Quality thin flexi vinyl.}

^{Holding label in correct position (Ideal at top 12 0-clock) scratched F/W at 2 O-clock (top of letters nearest label); scratched 1168A (same position as label print 1168A) at almost 9 O-clock (top of numbers /letters nearest label)}

^{Holding 1168A (both scratched and lable print) at 6 O-clock, F/W at 10 O-clock.}

^{Flip side holding scratched 1168B (opposite side of record to label print number) at 6 O-clock scratched F/W at just after 4 O-clock ( above l on Ideal).}

^{e from Dame Francis on A side has slight smudged , slight bolder print.}

^{Steve - bring it round next time we have a thursday session and we can compare 7"s.}

^{Thought I had an orig of this but doesn't seem to be very clear. So just to throw into the mix mine is:}

^{Quality thin flexi vinyl.}

^{Holding label in correct position (Ideal at top 12 0-clock) scratched F/W at 2 O-clock (top of letters nearest label); scratched 1168A (same position as label print 1168A) at almost 9 O-clock (top of numbers /letters nearest label)}

^{Holding 1168A (both scratched and lable print) at 6 O-clock, F/W at 10 O-clock.}

^{Flip side holding scratched 1168B (opposite side of record to label print number) at 6 O-clock scratched F/W at just after 4 O-clock ( above l on Ideal).}

^{e from Dame Francis on A side has slight smudged , slight bolder print.}

^{Steve - bring it round next time we have a thursday session and we can compare 7"s.}

hi Dean just read your post i will give these directions about label

LOgo @ 12 o'clock

Augben BMI on right hand side turn that to 6 o'clock the 1168A in is the run out and if the F/W is in about 11o'clock position

you could have an orig if not it's a boot

just dug mine out hope it helps you

Edited October 22, 201212 yr by soulghost

The thing is that puzzles me about this, if you look at that link I put up in post number 4.

There is absolutely no way they did two separate bootleg pressings of this, it just wasn't popular enough and there were a lot of originals around anyway.

I think that pressing with the lighter yellow label is the fake, but the darker one is a 'second' original.

I do, honestly.

 

Okay I have to eat my own words here, I have two copies in my hands, one is thicker vinyl with dark yellow label, and the second is thinner vinyl with a lighter yellow label, yet I believe both of these are bootlegs, reason being that in the run off groove you can see bubbling on both of them, and there is no stamp in either, also the "E" in DamE Francis is filled in on both.

 Just thought i'd bring this 1 in got a couple of photo's of my copy on it post  #25

 

no pin holes in the vinyl

  

 

 

atb Kev 

Edited November 21, 201410 yr by Kev John

 Just thought i'd bring this 1 in got a couple of photo's of my copy on it post  #25

 

no pin holes in the vinyl

  

 

 

atb Kev 

 

Dunno why but I can't get those first two to open

Ive  sold my copy to Chris Anderton since this thread started so i cant comment. Was definitely a original though

 

Great record

 

Steve

On 21/11/2014 at 15:50, Pete S said:

Okay I have to eat my own words here, I have two copies in my hands, one is thicker vinyl with dark yellow label, and the second is thinner vinyl with a lighter yellow label, yet I believe both of these are bootlegs, reason being that in the run off groove you can see bubbling on both of them, and there is no stamp in either, also the "E" in DamE Francis is filled in on both.

Hi Pete,

 

I have an original as per the JM description in his auction in September 2011 with the position of the FW stamp in relation to the 1168 number and the funny number "8".

 

I also have the boot. However someone tried to make it look legit with the FW mark but it's in the wrong place relative to the 1168 and the "8" looks normal proportions.

 

There is a VERY light line through the "e" in "Dame" on the original and a more obvious line through the "e" on the boot. The boot does have marks on the run-out groove but the original doesn't.

 

Here's a scan of both, I think one of them you have is pukka. The boot is a darker yellow and is the one on the left

 

Cheers

 

Kev Bod

 

 

Edited June 13, 2024Jun 13 by Bo Diddley

I'm standing at 12 o'clock and my shadow is at 10 o'clock, what does this mean

I'm standing at 12 o'clock and my shadow is at 10 o'clock, what does this mean

You had a shave early

Steve

I'm standing at 12 o'clock and my shadow is at 10 o'clock, what does this mean

Your either a mad dog or Englishman out in the midday sun!!

Some interesting opinions on which pressing is the boot here:

 

https://www.g45central.com/oldforum/viewtopic.php?t=2040&sid=16b5ae474a54ad1368b47563582ee41e

Some interesting opinions on which pressing is the boot here:

 

https://www.g45central.com/oldforum/viewtopic.php?t=2040&sid=16b5ae474a54ad1368b47563582ee41e

Interesting read

Moptopmike has very strong opinions! So, Rouser Frank Beverly in a boot!

 

Also, he seems to have spelled Patten (as on USA copies) as Patton (this in on UK copies)

 

I think I'd trust JM rather than Mr Moptop.

The JM guide to bootlegs, counterfeits & reissues describes 7 Dwarfs as follows:

 

bootlegged twice using same design as original, with both matix's in the deadwax reading 1168 A. One bootleg has a lemon yellow label "semi-flexible vinyl". with moulded over label. Bootleg #2 has mustard shade yellow label moulded onto a very flexible UK style vinyl.

The original has a lemon yellow label moulded onto very flexible vinyl with the matrix reads 1168A (no space between the 8 - A) plus a F/W scratched in mark on both sides in the deadwax.

 

From those descriptions and details earlier in this thread I take it to mean if the label is mustard in colour then its a bootleg, if its the lemon coloured label and there is a gap between the 8&A then its a bootleg. 

I think someone mentioned forgers were using a pin to scratch the F/W in the deadwax in that case the gap between the 8&A will be the most obvious identifier. 

Just had a close look at mine because of this tread - Bugger - I thought it original and now find it's a boot. Hey ho, a search will be started for an original when funds permit.  

The JM guide to bootlegs, counterfeits & reissues describes 7 Dwarfs as follows:

bootlegged twice using same design as original, with both matix's in the deadwax reading 1168 A. One bootleg has a lemon yellow label "semi-flexible vinyl". with moulded over label. Bootleg #2 has mustard shade yellow label moulded onto a very flexible UK style vinyl.

The original has a lemon yellow label moulded onto very flexible vinyl with the matrix reads 1168A (no space between the 8 - A) plus a F/W scratched in mark on both sides in the deadwax.

From those descriptions and details earlier in this thread I take it to mean if the label is mustard in colour then its a bootleg, if its the lemon coloured label and there is a gap between the 8&A then its a bootleg.

I think someone mentioned forgers were using a pin to scratch the F/W in the deadwax in that case the gap between the 8&A will be the most obvious identifier.

Just had a close look at mine because of this tread - Bugger - I thought it original and now find it's a boot. Hey ho, a search will be started for an original when funds permit.

Good luck with the search. I wouldn't want to pay more than £130 but you might have to pay a bit more. Hard record to go find.

Steve

Edited November 22, 201410 yr by Winsford Soul

Mr. Anderson has sent me some information on this record which people may find interesting..

 

HI PETE–I'VE BEEN READING ABOUT THE 7 DWARFS––I STARTED THIS RECORD –WE HAD 600 ORIGINAL COPIES THAT I BOUGHT IN A DEAL IN PITTSBURGH FOR 50 CENTS EACH –AROUND A 100 COPIES WERE THROWN IN THE SKIP BECAUSE THEY WERE OFF CENTRE–IT WAS A RECORD OF IT'S TIME–DOESN'T SOUND VERY GOOD NOW.ALSO BACK TO THE EDDIE PARKER I'M GONE SAGA–––BACK IN THOSE EARLY DAYS I USED TO GO TO PITTSBURGH A LOT––I HAD A FRIEND WHO BOUGHT RECORD LOADS AND ALSO COLLECTIONS WHEN PEOPLE WERE SELLING UP––YOU COULD ALWAYS COUNT ON THERE BEING A MAJESTICS-I LOVE HER SO MUCH AND AN EDDIE PARKER-I'M GONE IN THE COLLECTION SO THESE TWO RECORD MUST HAVE SOLD AROUND THE PITTSBURGH AREA–THE COPY THAT SOLD ON EBAY A FEW YEARS BACK CAME OUT OF A COLLECTION LIKE THAT.JOHN

Here's the one I've had for years, Boot I believe, No other lettering or numbering on run out apart from 1168 A.
Not flexi, well unless you wanted to snap it 

 

Edited November 25, 201410 yr by Northern Soul UK