Dear all,

very often "DJ promo copies" are higher priced than the normal issues.

What is the background of this? Is it because they are rarer?

Best regards

YouYou

Dear all,

very often "DJ promo copies"  are higher priced than the normal issues.

What is the background of this? Is it because they are rarer?

Best regards

YouYou

link

It's a northern soul thing, it doesn't happen on any other collectors scene, as far as I'm aware.

It's a northern soul thing, it doesn't happen on any other collectors scene, as far as I'm aware.

link

Its exactly down to rarity.

If there are a few copies of for example Gail Anderson - be proud (I only know of three), compared to about 500 issues it is obvious which is the more collectable.

There are opposites too eg Luther Ingram - If its all the same. There are two issues green and red(?) and they tend to fetch more than the demo. There must be plenty of other examples.

These I assume are records that maybe even only got as far as demo's getting sent to local radio stations, and either the label running out of money, the reaction being less than wonderful, so the plug was pulled.

It's a northern soul thing, it doesn't happen on any other collectors scene, as far as I'm aware.

link

Sure does happen on other collectors scenes...check out the value of Beatles promos against issues - I presume same is true for Elvis / Queen / etc.

Also some soul collectors prefer promos...cue comment from Mr Willingham on this one..............

Mace

It's not just about rarity IMO there is something about having a demo that marks it as special. They were the first releases for a start, so perhaps more original , they can be rarer although often it's the other way round especially with 70's, and then you have the different designs as well i can name quite a few WDJ nuts off the top of my head it's a bug

JoT

Are DJ / Promo copies allways the same take on the song as the standard issue or are there many exceptions to look for?

Can't think of an example of where a DJ/Promo copy is different to the release. Wouldn't be much point really, send all your demos out to radio stations, and then release a different song.

Go on, someone prove me wrong :-)

Also sometimes the material is different, the demo can sometimes be styrene and the issue vinyl e.tc.

best

Leo

Are DJ / Promo copies allways the same take on the song as the standard issue or are there many exceptions to look for?

link

not exactly a different song by any means, but Marjorie Black- one more hurt is a clearer and better mix on the demo than on the issue (not sure if it's just because it's proper mono on the demo and some sort of rechanneled 'stereo' on the issue but the demo definitely sounds a lot better) - well, it definitely did when I compared an issue I had to Jo W's demo :angry:

Martin

Are DJ / Promo copies allways the same take on the song as the standard issue or are there many exceptions to look for?

link

Again not a different take as such, but Sylvie Vartan - I Made My Choice issue is a few seconds longer (so I'm told) than the demo

Can't think of an example of where a DJ/Promo copy is different to the release. Wouldn't be much point really, send all your demos out to radio stations, and then release a different song.

Go on, someone prove me wrong :-)

link

DEREK MARTIN ON US SUE "IF YOU GO". ARE THE DEMO'S DIFF. TAKE TO ISSUES. OR IS IT ONE'S GOT GIRL'S AND THE OTHER AIN'T.

Ive started to buy US motown demos over the last 6 months, the point is you can get 3 types of demo, as far as i know,

1 A DJ COPY

2 A PROMO COPY

3 AN AUDITION COPY

So which is the most desireable and how many of each type were pressed also all the ones i have got are on vinyl are all motown demos on vinyl as the issues are not

Thanks Miff

Ive started to  buy US motown demos over the last 6 months, the point is you can get 3 types of demo, as far as i know,

1 A DJ COPY

2 A PROMO COPY

3 AN AUDITION COPY

So which is the most desireable and how many of each type were pressed also all the ones i have got are on vinyl are all motown demos on vinyl as the issues are not

Thanks Miff

link

In my experience dont think there is much difference but most seem to have the same songs on both sides for some reason.

Ran out of space 2 more scans

Ran out of space 2 more scans

It's a northern soul thing, it doesn't happen on any other collectors scene, as far as I'm aware.

link

From personal experience from the Dance scene, A 'White Label' copy with the track on one side and blank the other was always more sought-after than the label release. I think I paid about £30 for a Frankie Knuckles track before it got issued - on 'Strictly Rhythm' I think , which was about a tenner. I'm talking 14-15 years ago here, so not sure of the label.

I know that 'Boots' weren't worth as much. I remeber a copy of a Gat Decor instrumental track being done with a vocal over the top which was pretty good, but the sound quality was shite.

Didn't realise it at the time, but there are a lot of similarities to the Northern scene when I look back.

So, I'd have to disagree with you Mr T, but again what do I know

On the ones ive got the audition copys have the same B side as the issues.

One sided demo copies and promos with the same trcak on both sides were to stop smart DJ's from playing the flip. Of course if they didn't like the song it wouldn't get played anyway. Spector used to put throwaway instrumentals on his B sides.

When the FCC made the stations split their programming between FM and AM one side would be mono for the stations still on AM and stereo for the new stations.

WDs (Ducky & G'S) are WDs for the simple reasons that the label is cheaper, quicker and easier to produce than a multi-coloured one, in the early to mid sixties. At this stage the record is only being produced in small numbers to promote / demonstrate / audition the song usually by giving them to DJs to play on the radio stations. Therefore, it is all expenditure, and saving a couple of cents per unit is worth the while. If it was a success the record would be issued, and probably produced in runs of 500 plus, in the label's standard coloured format. Hence the reason why sometimes, some demos are rarer and more expensive

There are sometimes a "test press" of a record (Shufflers) kicking around which is one or two discs pressed just to check that the lacquer is OK

However, with the big successful labels like RCA, Columbia, I think they just automatically ran off a load of demos and issues in anticipation of a hit! Those that weren't became our "Northern Soul" and in these cases, the issues seem to be "rarer" than the demos (Jimmy Fraser). This could be because the demos had been distributed more widely before the plug was pulled on the song, and the issues just sat in a warehouse before being destroyed to make some more room.

If you lift up you box of records and see how heavy 300 records are, you realise why it was cheaper to send a real-to-real tape or lacquer to LA, NY, etc, rather than press the records up in say, Detroit and mail them out. Hence you may find different label designs (Jimmy Ruffin) and styrene on the West coast, vinyl on the East, but not exclusively.

In the 60's they seemed to like to have two tracks on a disc, I suppose that if the DJ/public didn't like the 'plug' side they might like the other! If they didn't have two songs, you might find the WD is either one sided, or has a "filler" on the B - check out Stanley Mitchell's 'Get it'!

Although LPs were being produced from the mid 60's in stereo, you don't really see stereo singles until to early 70's. I presume radio stations had better equipment and those broadcasting in FM could broadcast in stereo, but the choice between mono and stereo had to be still available. It is interesting that some companies (Atlantic) started to distinguish between the sides by putting a coloured label on the stereo side leaving the mono side a traditional white so as not to confuse the older DJs!

This has also led to the rarity of some 70's sounds as they are only available on the issue as the non-plug side as all those buying Ujima demo's have found out the hard way!

As for differences between demo and issued track, I don't think there are any if they've got the same catalogue number as they'll be pressed of the same lacquer. There a few records that where there are two demo's of different takes of the track, but only one went on to be issued e.g. Carl Burnette. Also, I think there may be a few spoken intros (on one side of the demo) missing from the issues, thank god!

Hippo, that was a really interesting read and the scans to show what your talking about an excellent idea.Thanks for that

From personal experience from the Dance scene, A 'White Label' copy with the track on one side and blank the other was always more sought-after than the label release. I think I paid about £30 for a Frankie Knuckles track before it got issued - on 'Strictly Rhythm' I think  , which was about a tenner. I'm talking 14-15 years ago here, so not sure of the label.

So, I'd have to disagree with you Mr T, but again what do I know

link

90% of my Dance rave record collection are On White lables (but dont tell any body) its not big and it's not clever!

.........Andrew

WDs (Ducky) are WDs for the simple reasons that the label is cheaper, quicker and easier to produce than a multi-coloured one, in the early to mid sixties.  At this stage the record is only being produced in small numbers to promote / demonstrate / audition  the song usually by giving them to DJs to play on the radio stations. Therefore, it is all expenditure, and saving a couple of cents per unit is worth the while. If it was a success the record would be issued and probably produced in  runs of 500 plus in the label's standard coloured format. Hence the reason why sometimes, some demos are rarer and more expensive

There are sometimes a "test press" of a record (Shufflers) kicking around which is one or two discs pressed just to check that the lacquer is OK

However, with the big successful labels like RCA, Columbia, I think they just automatically ran off a load of demos and issues in anticipation of a hit! Those that weren't became our "Northern Soul" and in these cases, the issues seem to be "rarer" than the demos (Jimmy Frazer).  This could be because the demos had been distributed more widely before the plug was pulled on the song, and the issues just sat in a warehouse before being destroyed to make some more room.

If you lift up you box of records and see how heavy 300 records are, you realise why it was cheaper to send a real-to-real tape or lacquer to LA, NY  etc, rather than press the records up in say, Detroit and mail them out.  Hence you may find different label designs (Jimmy Ruffin) and styrene on the West coast, vinyl on the East, but not exclusively.

In the 60's they seemed to like to have two tracks on a disc, I suppose that if the DJ/public didn't like the 'plug' side they might like the other! If they didn't have two songs, you might find the WD is either one sided, or has a "filler" on the B - check out Stanley Mitchell's  'Get it'!

Although LPs were being produced from the mid 60's in stereo, you don't really see stereo singles until to early 70's. I presume radio stations had better equipment and those broadcasting in FM could broadcast in stereo, but the choice between mono and stereo had to be still available. It is interesting that some companies (Atlantic) started to  distinguish between the sides by putting a coloured label on the stereo side leaving the mono side a traditional white so as not to confuse the older DJs!

This has also led to the rarity of some 70's sounds as they are only available on the issue as the non-plug side as all those buying Ujima demo's have found out the hard way!

As for differences between demo and issued track, I don't think there are any if they've got the same catalogue number as they'll be pressed of the same lacquer. There a few records that where there are two demo's of different takes of the track, but only one went on to be issued e.g. Carl Burnette.  Also, I think there may be a few spoken intros (on one side of the demo) missing from the issues, thank god!

link

Hippo (wish you'd use your real name), people like you are the reason i joned this forum,fascinating stuff,and thanks again.

70's label scans

Edited October 13, 200420 yr by Hippo

While I've got the scanner working, here's some 60's 'issue' only tracks, so don't go bidding on those bargain demos! As FrankM said, the intrumental track was often used as a "filler" for the release, as in the case of The Patrick Bradley, I think?

Hi Dave,

People who hear my one sided copy of George Blackwell reckon it's a different cut to the released version, but my ears aren't what they used to be so jury's still out.

Edited October 13, 200420 yr by Netspeaky

90% of my Dance rave record collection are On White lables (but dont tell any body)  its not big and it's not clever!

.........Andrew

link

Hi Andrew,

Never did like that word. 'Rave'.

Was always embarrased if anyone asked me if I was into 'Rave'.

'Soulful' or 'New York House' I preferred (Am I a tit or what? )

Lost all my collection when I had to leave a certain situation and not go back

Know what you mean about the white labels though.... Used to love going in Eastern Bloc in Manchester on a Saturday afternoon and coming out with a big slab of White demos. Cool

Hi Dave,

People who hear my one sided copy of George Blackwell reckon it's a different cut to  the released version, but my ears aren't what they used to be so jury's still out.

link

Netspeaky do you have any more info on this record?

Apart from being one-sided have you noticed that the type set of "Smoke Records" is different than the blue issues (is it the same as the Herbs on the yellow label issues?) and the fact that the time of the record is 7 second less!

Netspeaky  do you have any more info on this record?

Apart from being one-sided have you noticed that the type set of "Smoke Records" is different than the blue issues (is it the same as the Herbs on the yellow label issues?) and the fact that the time of the record is 7 second less!

link

And is there any chance if you (or anyone else who reckons they have an different take to the release) uploading a recording to Soul source to compare.

Edited October 13, 200420 yr by CRAIG W

WDs (Ducky & G'S) are WDs for the simple reasons that the label is cheaper, quicker and easier to produce than a multi-coloured one,

Since the label are cheaper, can't anyone help me out with a copy of said track

best

Leo

Usually like already stated white demos are rarer but not always...take RCA, issues often the more sought after and often rarer of the two.

Have seen different titles from demo to issue.

Often get one sided or same both sides demos to the issue and the demo is the worst side..at least as far as NS collectors are concerned.

These thoughts kind of relate to the topic under discussion. I wonder if anyone else has ever noticed or had a similar experience of the following:

The first copy of Jeff Perry's "Love Don't Come No Stronger" I ever had was the UK Arista white DJ. I only ever heard the US issue on a decent domestic system about two years ago at a mate's house and was completely bowled over by the vast difference in the two versions of the track.

The UK demo is stereo, but only just. The handclaps at the start of the UK cut have no reverb or echo on them. The sax solo is set so far back in the mix that it's practically inaudible and the record has an all-round flatness and lack of sparkle. It really was like listening to two completely different records. I immediately offered to swap the (relatively more expensive) UK Demo for the bog standard US issue.

Thinking back to how well received the Jeff Perry 45 was when an import (Blues & Soul Record of the Year 1976 etc.) I often wondered why it was never a massive pop hit. Perhaps the desperately poor quality radio station copy serviced to UK pop DJs was the real reason why this record never crossed over to the pop charts.

Can anyone else think of another example where the UK release of a tune is so different to its American counterpart?

Interesting topic this one, Mick the Derek Martin issues have a organ based backing and the demo's don't, demo sounds oh so much better as the organ to my ear spoils the tune.

The George Blackwell Example does not look right to me and i believe it's a speeded up version.

Regarding the original thread here is not just the simple fact that many of our records never made it to the issue stage so many of the records are promo/demo/audition only not always white put certainly demo's.

Can't beat the pureness and richness of holding a box full of demo's as it don't get much better does it.

Mark Bicknell.

Thinking back to how well received the Jeff Perry 45 was when an import (Blues & Soul Record of the Year 1976 etc.) I often wondered why it was never a massive pop hit. Perhaps the desperately poor quality radio station copy serviced to UK pop DJs was the real reason why this record never crossed over to the pop charts.

link

You've probably given the reason it was never a UK hit yourself there. It sold huge numbers on import, so in all honesty, who was left to buy it when it came out on UK. Even though there were a lot more people actively buying records back in the Seventies, it still needed big sales of a UK issue on the UK Soul scene to get it where it registered on the BBC charts so that 'non-soul' buyers would even get to hear it.

Interesting and very useful post there from Mr Hippo.

I have to say that Jimmy Fraser is a very tough one to find on a red issue( I saw one at Keith Money's house a while ago) and I think that applies to a lot of the Columbia sides played on the Northern scene - I've only ever seen Liz Verdi, Jimmy F, The Uptights once or twice on red stock copies.

Saying that, I haven't been around as long as some people but you do notice trends.

Hammy

Usually like already stated white demos are rarer but not always...take RCA, issues often the more sought after and often rarer of the two.

I think it is far to say that the big labels where the (Northern) WDs are rare, the issues are rarer e.g. RCA, Columbia

This topic is an interesting case of different strokes for different folks. Aesthetically, I would always go for an issue copy of a record rather than a DJ copy if given the choice. I can't think of anything more tedious than looking through boxes of sterile loooking WDJs. Give me the multicoloured issue labels any day. Deejay copies often lived lives cooped up on radio station shelves. The issues were left to take their chances in the big wide world; examples that survive in good nick are more fascinating to me for that reason.

As an extension of this I've often thought collecting British issues of US soul records was odd for similar aesthetic reasons. Compare and contrast the wonderful and often weird world of US label graphics with the staid, post-war austerity "ration-book" feel of the Parlophones / UK Libertys / Londons of this world.

Also, as a collector of 1970s soul, as has already been pointed out, it's often the case that the 'good' or now in-demand sides of 45s were only included on issue copies, which were often pressed in far shorter runs than the WDJs.

This topic is an interesting case of different strokes for different folks. Aesthetically, I would always go for an issue copy of a record rather than a DJ copy if given the choice. I can't think of anything more tedious than looking through boxes of sterile loooking WDJs. Give me the multicoloured issue labels any day. Deejay copies often lived lives cooped up on radio station shelves. The issues were left to take their chances in the big wide world; examples that survive in good nick are more fascinating to me for that reason.

As an extension of this I've often thought collecting British issues of US soul records was odd for similar aesthetic reasons. Compare and contrast the wonderful and often weird world of US label graphics with the staid, post-war austerity "ration-book" feel of the Parlophones / UK Libertys / Londons of this world.

Also, as a collector of 1970s soul, as has already been pointed out, it's often the case that the 'good' or now in-demand sides of 45s were only included on issue copies, which were often pressed in far shorter runs than the WDJs.

link

Gareth

It's a fetish thing, if you love WDs like me, anything else is immaterial! Except maybe that big red A on a British white demo!!!!!!

This question has ben bugging me forever;

How many demo copies would the record company press? My interest is in the British stuff. Take Cameo Parkway for example. Or the Okeh releases on Columbia?