One of the main claims on Soul Source is that every man and his dog wants to be a DJ, the general argument for this is that people are jumping on the bandwagon. I'd like to put forward a possible alternative theory, and then 'you lot' can shoot me down and pull it apart

 

So most of the reports of the music policies of venues is that they're stale, for want of a better word. But these reports are usually from an individual viewpoint. So if you take man/woman A, B, C sitting in a venue.

 

Person A would like to hear mostly modern

Person B would like to hear mostly rare

Person C would like to hear mostly oldies

 

Through the night some of the above is played, and the people get up to dance to their respective choices, but come away thinking what they wanted to hear hasn't truly been catered for. They're looking at it from an individual point of view. They go home, look at their record boxes, and put together a set THEY'D like to hear. Then they tout around to get a slot, because in their mind's eye, they're certain they can do a better job of getting people to enjoy themselves. Can't find a slot, hire a small hall, new venue starts up. What's forgotten is that persons A, B, and C all had different choices when it came to what they wanted to hear.

 

Instead of being happy that during the night they attended, they got up and danced 10/20 times, they want a venue where they'd get up all night. What they mistakenly think is that everybody in the room has the same taste as them and will appreciate their efforts. The argument is based on individuality, as are a lot of the comments on here, the collective viewpoint is forgotten, dismissed etc. So by my reasoning, the simple reasons that their are so many DJs these days is that we tend to look at things from an individual angle rather than a collective one, pleasing ourselves has become paramount. Factor in that most of us can't dance as much as we used too, so if we're having to sit down, we want to hear records WE like. Feel free to expand, (your own theories) or rip apart this theory, next time I go out I'll still enjoy myself

 

Winnie

Here's the harm - in this hypothetical example I'll use r&b as I'm no expert on the northern scene, although I imagine it follows comparable trends.

Recognising a genuine gap in the market, like, for example, no r&b being played in the whole country, a night starts, doing something genuinely new, and becomes a sucess. It pulls in people from its local area plus a floating pool of a couple hundred travellers. It's full, but not packed to capacity, so it needs everyone to maintain this pool of attendees.

For one or several of a variety of reasons, such as

* mr x cant get a spot at the primary club,

* primary club isnt felt to be playing the right sort of r&b, you see, about 37% of that played is 5 or more bpm slower than the acceptable level, and some of it falls 2, sometimes 3, years outside of the acceptable era, at each end etc etc

* mr x cant be arsed to travel and wants something closer to home

* mr x doesnt really like crowds, or the fact that primary club had 8 normal people in, and 2 young women, who clealy were enjoying themselves

'Mr x' decides to start a new night, possibly in another city, but equally as likely, in the same city, to satisy his needs.

No harm done right? Competition is good for the consumer etc etc and now we have the luxury of 2 clubs, one playing r&b from 1960 - 1966, and one playing r&b from 1958 - 1963.

Half the people at primary club really do prefer r&b from 1958- 1963 within the 100 - 130 bpm range in an ideal world so, even though they were happy at primary club, they jump ship to secondry club, as its more suited to them, and they like the promotor more, and he did invite them to his wedding.

Now no more customers are created, the whole pool was pretty much aware of primary club. So now that pool is split between two nights, which eventually split into 4, then 8 ...s.

Both are half empty, they limp on for a bit. Any potential newcomer gives them a try, sees that they're fairly dead, doesnt feel that welcome cos there's a fat middle ages guy in a shiny suit staring, so they f*ck off and dont come back.

My point is that the primary club, unless it was seriously failing, or not delivering, had far more chance of expanding the audience on its own than 2, or 4, or 8 separate clubs in the same area do. People attract people. One consolidated audience creates an atmosphere that becomes an attraction in itself, except for the agrophobic

I'll not labour this hypothesis but hopefully you get the picture, more chiefs than indians is the jist of it

Maybe it's just a british thing

 

Common sense......(Except the R 'n' B bit)  

 

Nicely put  

 

Len  

No, I believe the concept of choice is a global thing, even the Russians and Chinese have come to embrace this. The great thing about the Northern scene is the amount of choice. Maybe today we are spoilt for choice, but it's better than having no choice a all.

Well that's the capitalist logic - that choice is better than no choice so as much choice as possible must be even better. Logically false, there is an optimum amount of choice where demand is satisfied and additional choices just share existing demand, after which additional product is superfluous and only serves to waste resources and clutter life up.

Choice is over rated. All possible requirements of a pair of jeans are more or less satisfied by levis, who made good jeans before there was any competition. Arguably, all other jeans only exist to spread profits and wages over a broader economic area. Choice is more of economic benefit than artistic.

I do take it that were not just looking for the cheapest soul night?

Edited September 24, 201311 yr by penny

The majority of returnees have already got bored again and left Russ, I recently went through my mailing list and over 700 had email addresses no longer working and nearly all were from the days of 2000 to 2005, after that I never ehard from most of them again.  It was they who provided the massive boost in the late 90's, but without them, everything is shrinking back towards the first few post-Wigan years in my opinion.

They might not be buying records Pete but I can assure you they haven't left the scene. I wish they would though and it can go back underground and the music will be what is all about first and foremost once again.

The question should be "So many promoters....why?"

 

Exactly Chalky (Promoter / D.J)

 

All the best,

 

Len (Promoter / D.J)

 

 ......Come on, see the humour!  

 

Laters mate  

No, I believe the concept of choice is a global thing, even the Russians and Chinese have come to embrace this.  The great thing about the Northern scene is the amount of choice.  Maybe today we are spoilt for choice, but it's better than having no choice at all.

 

....Just......the more choice there is, the quality goes down, unfortunately for lots of people that will do. Result being (is) some top quality nights are at risk, due to numbers being spread too thinly, and these nights are the back bone (imho)

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Choice is over rated. All possible requirements of a pair of jeans are more or less satisfied by levis, who made good jeans before there was any competition. Arguably, all other jeans only exist to spread profits and wages over a broader economic area. Choice is more of economic benefit than artistic.

 

 

That's akin to saying "All possible requirements of a soul record are more or less satisfied by Motown, who made good soul music before there was any competition. Arguably, all other soul music only exists to spread profits and wages over a broader economic area.  Choice is more of economic benefit than artistic."

 

I'm all for quality over quantity, but would hate to have little or no choice when it came to which venue to attend.  At the end of the day, it's the individual's choice where he / she goes, or whether they go at all.

Exactly Chalky (Promoter / D.J)

 

All the best,

 

Len (Promoter / D.J)

 

 ......Come on, see the humour!  

 

Laters mate  

Same question would apply though Len (and Chalky) do they consider themselves promoters, or is it us calling them promoters. In general we're talking about a small local night, once a month, once a quarter, usually put on by a group of friends. They only have the one night. That wouldn't be a promoter in my book.

 

Another question that arises: When would someone be accepted as a promoter/DJ does said person only achieve that status when they DJ at certain places. Would said person receive the accolade of promoter only after a specific period of time? 

Well that's the capitalist logic - that choice is better than no choice so as much choice as possible must be even better. Logically false, there is an optimum amount of choice where demand is satisfied and additional choices just share existing demand, after which additional product is superfluous and only serves to waste resources and clutter life up.

Choice is over rated. All possible requirements of a pair of jeans are more or less satisfied by levis, who made good jeans before there was any competition. Arguably, all other jeans only exist to spread profits and wages over a broader economic area. Choice is more of economic benefit than artistic.

I do take it that were not just looking for the cheapest soul night?

You do talk some rubbish ,where do you get these idea's from   

 

 

Bazza   

It's irrelevant what they call or think of themselves Win, they are after all promoting an event and taking money on the door. It also has an effect on the scene as a whole, often detrimentally. Some of these part time promoters have to sit back and take alook at what they are doing and what effect they are having on the scene. Often they put a venue on without taking a look what is already happening and in the process splitting an already dwindling crowd. Many of these promoters probably promote because they aren't getting a set elsewhere?

This is one of the cases where more isn't always better IMO. We definately aren't spoilt for choice, we just have a plethora of venues with the vast majority offering the same old same, that IMO isn't a choice.

Edited September 24, 201311 yr by chalky

Look on Facebook - and I apologise if this encompasses you - at the amount of fella's/lads with their headphones on/at the decks in their main photo...it really is not a good look.

 

If you scream, "I'm a DJ!!", then you generally aren't.

Its not just me thats noticed then lol.

It's what I built my reputation on Simsy....I knew nowt else...! Missed out on getting bored with oldies or stuck in the mud for newies....it was all new....and I played 'music'...irrelevant of it's history or genre.....innocently!x U and ure Mrs can come to my first gig I promote again for free......my kinda guy!x

@@

~

LUV

SOOTY

X

Sooty

God!!!!Not another new night starting up...........in Hull

Cheers

Martyn

It's irrelevant what they call or think of themselves Win, they are after all promoting an event and taking money on the door. It also has an effect on the scene as a whole, often detrimentally. Some of these part time promoters have to sit back and take alook at what they are doing and what effect they are having on the scene. Often they put a venue on without taking a look what is already happening and in the process splitting an already dwindling crowd. Many of these promoters probably promote because they aren't getting a set elsewhere?

This is one of the cases where more isn't always better IMO. We definately aren't spoilt for choice, we just have a plethora of venues with the vast majority offering the same old same, that IMO isn't a choice.

Remember a thread on here where I think the only 2 events knew of where the promoters was not djs was Rugby and New Century.

I know of a few promoters that dj at their own events wouldn't get any dj spots if they wasn't a promoter so it has its perks.

Same question would apply though Len (and Chalky) do they consider themselves promoters, or is it us calling them promoters. In general we're talking about a small local night, once a month, once a quarter, usually put on by a group of friends. They only have the one night. That wouldn't be a promoter in my book.

 

Another question that arises: When would someone be accepted as a promoter/DJ does said person only achieve that status when they DJ at certain places. Would said person receive the accolade of promoter only after a specific period of time? 

 

Blimey Win - this is exhausting!  

 

There's no 'accolade' being a promoter (maybe there is to some) I use the word as a descriptive - It describes someone who puts on an event....As for 'D.J', again descriptive, I see some as 'Good' D.J's, and some as 'Bad' D.J's.....That's my thinking anyway.

 

Len  

"plethora of venues with the vast majority offering the same old same, that IMO isn't a choice."

 

 

And verily,the Soul Spin Doctors were born. 
 

the Soul Spin Doctors

 

 

'The Soul Spin Doctors'.....Now there's a Cover Up name I could use on my next 'unsuspecting' 'B' side - Thanks  

 

Len  

 

P.s - It's even better than 'The Hidden Agendas'  

Edited September 24, 201311 yr by LEN

....Just......the more choice there is, the quality goes down, unfortunately for lots of people that will do. Result being (is) some top quality nights are at risk, due to numbers being spread too thinly, and these nights are the back bone (imho)

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

 

Now as this is a Democracy and we are all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions, I cant concurr to your above statement Len.

 

There is possibly a partial amount of justification that too many events or "DJ's" are diluting things and that

"Top quality" nights are at risk. But in who's opinion are they top quality nights? The majority, minority or the select few? 

Surely an element of, we're better than all the rest,or if you dont attend a certain event then you're not fanatical about "The Scene" as we are or for a promoter to self embelish with statements as "we're very lucky to have an event like this in our area" dont class it as a "Top quality" night. Thats for the people attending to justify. Surely its the same as a tradesman having "proffesional, quality, trustworthy blah blah blah" on the side of their van. If they are thats for the people who emlpoy him to state. Otherwise it is seen as self gratification and puts people off. It doesnt matter how much an individual shouts about how forward thinking and the proper scene ethos their event is if it aint what people want they wont attend.

Admittedly in my opinion events labelled as Northern Soul and Motown nights as we all know are to attract as many varied people as possible to get as many through the door. Also in my opinion events that are on every month with the same 5 or 6 "dj's" on the bill every time arent really offering anything out of the ordinary unless they can lay their hands collectively on every tune available covering the decades.Or that 3 or 4 events in the same area ran by the same promoters at least once a month surely isnt going to dilute the attendance at any other club in the area,wherever that is in the country now is it???????  Is anyone going to stop this from happening, probably not, should anyone try and stop this from happening? definately not, who would have the right?

The simple demographics of it is from what I can gather from this thread is that. Too many events and or too many dj's all trying to get a piece of the pie, is that the pie needs to be a frigging big one for us all to get a piece. I dont believe that thats true.  I have always believed that if you put on an event that people WANT to attend then they will regardless of the people spinning boots, carvers, ovo or cd's. All you can do is book, or ask your mates to dj and open the door.  If people choose to attend then you've done something right, you may not know what that is, if they dont then its probably going to be for an innumerous list of reasons or just one.  It may be that people dont attend because they are evented out and have been to 2 or 3 do's in the month already and cant be bothered going out again. In my opinion I dont believe that to be true, if its somewhere you want to go then you will regardless of energy or less important commitments.

I was speaking to someone at St Ives on Saturday and they said they wouldnt miss this night for all the tea in China and if they had one last event to go to before they died it would be there. I asked them why St Ives Reunion and they said and I quote " because its where I know Im going to have a bloody good night and would hate myself if I missed it". Thats the key to it all at the end of the day. How many events were on on Saturday? Im not sure but I bet there were a fair few, and they chose St Ives because they wanted to.

Do I get shit because of what I do or dont do regarding The Northern Soul Scene? You bet your bottom dollar I do!!!!  Does it bother me, used to admittedly. But I go where I want, when I want and support whomever I want and that is true of us all.

 

Reagrds

 

Kev (dont do modern) Such

Edited September 24, 201311 yr by kev such

That's akin to saying "All possible requirements of a soul record are more or less satisfied by Motown, who made good soul music before there was any competition. Arguably, all other soul music only exists to spread profits and wages over a broader economic area.  Choice is more of economic benefit than artistic."

 

It is, except that all possible requirements of a soul record were not satisfied by Motown for one, and secondly you dont get diminishing returns from entertainment the same way you would a utility good as novelty is an intrinsic part of the product.

But even then, if you were to say that all possible requirements of soul music were more or less satisfied by, say, 1975, then you would have an at least debatable point.

Certainly, all possible requirements of blues recordings were satisfied by the early 70s, you'd probably have to say, so it can sort of apply.

It is not a communist ethic to be happy with what you have, despite capitalist theory claiming it to be.

Obviously, capitalism is like a pyramid scheme, it needs constant new product and consumers so cultivates this choice myth,that the opposite of infinite choice is soviet style no choice. Its just not the case, with a stable population, a town would have a single firm of, say, butchers, for generations. The reason it never became a monolpoly was because once upon a time, there was community and people just cared for free.

Now as this is a Democracy and we are all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions, I cant concurr to your above statement Len.

 

There is possibly a partial amount of justification that too many events or "DJ's" are diluting things and that

"Top quality" nights are at risk. But in who's opinion are they top quality nights? The majority, minority or the select few? 

Surely an element of, we're better than all the rest,or if you dont attend a certain event then you're not fanatical about "The Scene" as we are or for a promoter to self embelish with statements as "we're very lucky to have an event like this in our area" dont class it as a "Top quality" night. Thats for the people attending to justify. Surely its the same as a tradesman having "proffesional, quality, trustworthy blah blah blah" on the side of their van. If they are thats for the people who emlpoy him to state. Otherwise it is seen as self gratification and puts people off. It doesnt matter how much an individual shouts about how forward thinking and the proper scene ethos their event is if it aint what people want they wont attend.

Admittedly in my opinion events labelled as Northern Soul and Motown nights as we all know are to attract as many varied people as possible to get as many through the door. Also in my opinion events that are on every month with the same 5 or 6 "dj's" on the bill every time arent really offering anything out of the ordinary unless they can lay their hands collectively on every tune available covering the decades.Or that 3 or 4 events in the same area ran by the same promoters at least once a month surely isnt going to dilute the attendance at any other club in the area,wherever that is in the country now is it???????  Is anyone going to stop this from happening, probably not, should anyone try and stop this from happening? definately not, who would have the right?

The simple demographics of it is from what I can gather from this thread is that. Too many events and or too many dj's all trying to get a piece of the pie, is that the pie needs to be a frigging big one for us all to get a piece. I dont believe that thats true.  I have always believed that if you put on an event that people WANT to attend then they will regardless of the people spinning boots, carvers, ovo or cd's. All you can do is book, or ask your mates to dj and open the door.  If people choose to attend then you've done something right, you may not know what that is, if they dont then its probably going to be for an innumerous list of reasons or just one.  It may be that people dont attend because they are evented out and have been to 2 or 3 do's in the month already and cant be bothered going out again. In my opinion I dont believe that to be true, if its somewhere you want to go then you will regardless of energy or less important commitments.

I was speaking to someone at St Ives on Saturday and they said they wouldnt miss this night for all the tea in China and if they had one last event to go to before they died it would be there. I asked them why St Ives Reunion and they said and I quote " because its where I know Im going to have a bloody good night and would hate myself if I missed it". Thats the key to it all at the end of the day. How many events were on on Saturday? Im not sure but I bet there were a fair few, and they chose St Ives because they wanted to.

Do I get shit because of what I do or dont do regarding The Northern Soul Scene? You bet your bottom dollar I do!!!!  Does it bother me, used to admittedly. But I go where I want, when I want and support whomever I want and that is true of us all.

 

Reagrds

 

Kev (dont do modern) Such

Not sure about this popularist type theory, that whatever is most popular is therefore what people want.

It seems to miss the points that people aren't always aware of all their options and that it's human nature to go for the most comfortable or easy option, even if this isnt ultimately the most rewarding for them.

For example, you take away a kids playstation, they might go outside and climb a tree or build a den or some shit. Now I have no idea if building a den is better than playing a playstation but I'm entitled to believe that it is, just as I'm entitled to think that people would ultimately get more from hearing new soul music than they would from hearing abba and lady gaga at the local mobile disco.

I have not much solid evidence that one is better than the other but it seems strange if the mobile disco were to be proved better thansoul just because more people liked it.

Take away fast food, people wouldnt sit and starve, theyd start to eat veg and shit. Soul veg.

Well Winnie, me ol’ mate, you have surpassed yourself with this thread, and no matter what views were, they were all put forward in a very good manner, and that’s what healthy debate is all about.

 

I’m gonna just put my closing thoughts down…...but I do suspect this thread may ‘rave up’ again, so goodbye for now, it’s been enjoyable.

 

Thanks Win.

 

(There is a point to this)…..I have always, tried my best to conduct myself the best way I possibly could, respecting everything that has gone before me, right back to ‘Northern Soul B.C’ (Before Croasdell) ((Sorry Ady - you just happened to ‘fit' there))  and beyond - right back to when a young Billy Wizz first ventured on to a dance floor (hello again Billy)  

 

Most of all I have respected my peers, and if over the 30 odd years that I have been ‘doing it’, I have managed to earn a fraction of that respect in return, then I am more than happy…….

 

……This kind of thinking doesn’t even enter some people’s heads, and it p*sses me off! A Scene that I once loved, stomped all over with not a thought for those that have neutered it over so many years.

 

Penny, I hope I’m not being too undignified in saying this - I shall now return to dignity, and support people and places that I respect, simply ignoring everything else, as sadly, it can’t be changed......Again, it's the world we now live in.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Edited September 24, 201311 yr by LEN

Not sure about this popularist type theory, that whatever is most popular is therefore what people want.

It seems to miss the points that people aren't always aware of all their options and that it's human nature to go for the most comfortable or easy option, even if this isnt ultimately the most rewarding for them.

For example, you take away a kids playstation, they might go outside and climb a tree or build a den or some shit. Now I have no idea if building a den is better than playing a playstation but I'm entitled to believe that it is, just as I'm entitled to think that people would ultimately get more from hearing new soul music than they would from hearing abba and lady gaga at the local mobile disco.

I have not much solid evidence that one is better than the other but it seems strange if the mobile disco were to be proved better thansoul just because more people liked it.

Take away fast food, people wouldnt sit and starve, theyd start to eat veg and shit. Soul veg.

 

Pure ... dead ... brilliant   

Well Winnie, me ol’ mate, you have surpassed yourself with this thread, and no matter what views were, they were all put forward in a very good manner, and that’s what healthy debate is all about.

 

I’m gonna just put my closing thoughts down…...but I do suspect this thread may ‘rave up’ again, so goodbye for now, it’s been enjoyable.

 

Thanks Win.

 

(There is a point to this)…..I have always, tried my best to conduct myself the best way I possibly could, respecting everything that has gone before me, right back to ‘Northern Soul B.C’ (Before Croasdell) ((Sorry Ady - you just happened to ‘fit' there))  and beyond - right back to when a young Billy Wizz first ventured on to a dance floor (hello again Billy)  

 

Most of all I have respected my peers, and if over the 30 odd years that I have been ‘doing it’, I have managed to earn a fraction of that respect in return, then I am more than happy…….

 

……This kind of thinking doesn’t even enter some people’s heads, and it p*sses me off! A Scene that I once loved, stomped all over with not a thought for those that have neutered it over so many years.

 

Penny, I hope I’m not being too undignified in saying this - I shall now return to dignity, and support people and places that I respect, simply ignoring everything else, as sadly, it can’t be changed......Again, it's the world we now live in.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Hi Len, i wasn't too sure what BC stood for, now i know lol.

Have a nice evening.

Cheers Billy

I think the thread has pretty much ran it's course now, thanks to all those who contributed, as Lenny said, all done without any cross words. If it does need opening again because you have a new perspective to add, let me know and I'll unlock it for another day or so. Once again thanks

 

Winnie