Probably been mentioned before, but here goes 

Admirations - Wait till I get to know you - One Der Ful

Admirations - Don't leave me - One Der Ful

Admirations/Aspirations - You left me - Peaches

Good correlation of releases if nowt else 

Any comments appreciated thanks 

I personally don't hear any similarities between a young Michael and whoever the lead is on "Heaven Is In Your Arms". 

Another thing worth noting, the backing vocalists on "Heaven Is In Your Arms" are female - there are several back-and-forth verses and sighing/swooning noises that give this away in case you can't hear it in their voices:

Lead: "Girl, without your love I would surely die"

Backing group: "Boy, I'm gonna keep you by my side"

Lead: "Believe me girl, this is no lie"

Edited June 20, 20232 yr by Nick Soule

2 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

I personally don't hear any similarities between a young Michael and whoever the lead is on "Heaven Is In Your Arms". 

Another thing worth noting, the backing vocalists on "Heaven Is In Your Arms" are female - there are several back-and-forth versus and sighing/swooning noises that give this away in case you can't hear it in their voices:

Lead: "Girl, without your love I would surely die"

Backing group: "Boy, I'm gonna keep you by my side"

Lead: "Believe me girl, this is no lie"

OK. One "vote" not in it. Good. Evidently about the backing vocals. At least they sound girly... No offense but high 'pitch' boys can too if ever... That's for one.

For two backings girls could all be at work here while the boys rest all the same. And if ever it's problematic with the Jackson Five what about the Admirations boys ?

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

At Tone's studios July 1967 the Jackson Five cut a record at One-derful! Records under the directions of Eddie Silvers.

Guitarist Larry Blasingaine told about it to Jake Austen who was researching a story about the Steeltown release and then contacted Eric D. Leaner one of the four siblings who inherited the One-derful! masters from their dad and Leaner began to search for the reel. Found it. 2014 Secret Stashed revealed it to the world.

Could 'heaven in my arms' have been recorded days or weeks before under Hayes and Jones directions at Tone's too ?

But then maybe (very much hypothetically) Hayes and Jones wouldn't have left the reels there. Unless those Admirations credited sessions reels remained at One-Derful's. Hidding there still in that 'secret stash' of reels. And the initial Paree misleading side credited lived on all this time. Like historical myth live on... Could it ?

Indeed it's cleverly made-up for a 'mix-up' release. The match can easily be fooling. Hayes and Jones 'masterminds' at it. That bit at least we know. For certain. As for the who's who potential 'contenders' those five young brothers do 'tick' many boxes. And even the vocals do share something to say the least. Even if I got carried away above.

There was reels that Secret Stash came across in the Onederful reels that were nothing to do with Onderful or the Leaner Brothers.  There is one fantastic track by Syl Johnson.  It could be the Jacksons ended up where it shouldn’t. I would imagine the producers and arrangers and indeed the studios were so busy and going through sessions very quickly it would be very easy for material to get lost or misplaced. 

The lead on Heaven Is In Your Arms is young, much younger than the lead on any Admirations recording but after listening I don’t think its MJ.  I’m only on the ipad and will compare again once I’m home. 

Edited June 20, 20232 yr by Chalky

9 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

FWIW the Admiration’s singer on Paree sounds very like Little Michael Jackson.... On listening to both sides of the Peaches 45, echoes of the same singer sound through. It does sound like the same lead singer on both records...doing my head in but I think you lot are on to something here!

I was talking to the guy who played bass for the Admirations and wrote I Want To Be Free, it is the Admirations. I will see if I can find the messages and maybe get back in touch with him. 

5 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

I personally don't hear any similarities between a young Michael and whoever the lead is on "Heaven Is In Your Arms". 

Another thing worth noting, the backing vocalists on "Heaven Is In Your Arms" are female - there are several back-and-forth versus and sighing/swooning noises that give this away in case you can't hear it in their voices:

Lead: "Girl, without your love I would surely die"

Backing group: "Boy, I'm gonna keep you by my side"

Lead: "Believe me girl, this is no lie"

I agree and definitely female backing/answer in there. 

2 hours ago, Chalky said:

There was reels that Secret Stash came across in the Onederful reels that were nothing to do with Onderful or the Leaner Brothers.  There is one fantastic track by Syl Johnson.  It could be the Jacksons ended up where it shouldn’t. I would imagine the producers and arrangers and indeed the studios were so busy and going through sessions very quickly it would be very easy for material to get lost or misplaced. 

The lead on Heaven Is In Your Arms is young, much younger than the lead on any Admirations recording but after listening I don’t think its MJ.  I’m only on the ipad and will compare again once I’m home. 

FWIW the Jackson Five One-Deful reel official story was "borrowed" from a Rolling Stone magazine from September 30th 2014 quoting the historical Secret Stash found and release (I guess with Secret Stash's blurb about it for source).

Ye. MJ came to my mind with all the extras 'conjunctions' about and around it making it all very plausible. And also a very possible match. But indeed such appreciation is mostly subjective. Maybe only with people working in that field...

Edited June 20, 20232 yr by Tlscapital

Found this on you tube- it's the group with WVON'S Herb Kent - 

 

Edited June 23, 20232 yr by The Yank

50 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Found this on you tube- it's the group with WVON'S Herb Kent - 

 

Nice find!  Brings back old memories.  🙂

Side note from the 'Secret Stash' imaging at 7 O'Clock in that Christmas YT video the 'Audiotape' reel for the Ultimations, Madeleine (Miss) and Admirations titled 'it's a matter of time' before retitling it 'wait till I get to know you'...

Love that ! Insignificant as it is. It is what I always sung along to ever since... 

On the vocals 'trial' today I had the visit of a musician friend whose ears are rather well trained. Occasionally I call on him with such musician "technical" queries. So I took the chance to submit him the 'blind' test of the 4 vocals mp3's.

Telling him only at first 3 of the mp3's are definitely from a same singer and a 4th could be or not. He began first to 'imprint' the voice of 'Big Boy' (One-Derful 1967). Then right after I played him the 'heaven in your arms' vocal mp3.

His first quotes were it could be the same singer but on 'heaven in your arms' the young singer is much more 'fluent' and 'paced' right where on 'big boy' (1967) not. Like 'big boy' (1967) seemed more amateurish and just 'off pace'.

By the time I played him 'big boy' (1968) he pointed out then that the singing there was more 'reminiscent' of the singer of 'heaven in your arms'. FWIW  by that time he had guessed that it was a young Michael Jackson at the mike.

Playing him time and time again the vocal mp3 of 'heaven in your arms' he went on saying that to him the lead there could very well be Michael. Like he was convinced that this was actually Michael. Not a proof but still his ear opinion.

These assumptions are again only that. No scientific or factual proof. Plus these impressions based on ear analysis don't answer the difference in singing maturity for what we would have deducted to be contemporary sessions.

Elaborating his analysis finding more similarities in the singing "maturity" between 'heaven in your arms' (1967) and 'big boy' (1968) but not as much (or at all) with 'big boy (1967) where the singing is more "immature" or amateurish.

As you say it is all in the ears of the beholder. Unless it goes through voice sampling or comparison software we will never know. Just listening on the iPad whilst they sound very similar one is slightly higher than the other. 

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

As you say it is all in the ears of the beholder. Unless it goes through voice sampling or comparison software we will never know. Just listening on the iPad whilst they sound very similar one is slightly higher than the other. 

Yes but then comparing the One-Deful 'big boy' mp3 voice to 'big boy' (Steeltown) mp3 voice with my musician friend from earlier on he pointed out that even Michael's voice there on both recordings done only 6 months appart (we believe) singing the same tune were totally appart. Not only in 'pace' with the tune but also in tone too.

To his 'musician' trained ear in 'heaven in your arms' was where Michael (if ever) was singing best. Then and there I stressed that young boys vocal cords could be very well be less consistant than a bit later (before going 'cave man deep') at least. And during lengthy studio sessions between takes young vocal chords might alter too.

He ended up stating that to his ears the 3 Jackson Five mp3 vocals had less in common than 'heaven in your arms' had with the Michael he knows. Taking into account his 'musician' ear approach criteria I must admit that I ended hearing all that too. Implying that very young Michael singing was not always so consistant in that regard. Worth point.

In 'heaven in your arms' the singing is consistant and most reminiscing of Michael (if ever) as we'll know him later. Why is that happening more with 'heaven in your arms' than with the 3 other Michael's recordings ? Is it sometimes just like that ? Could 'heaven in your arms' have been precisely at the right conjunction of people, time and place ? 

12 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Yes but then comparing the One-Deful 'big boy' mp3 voice to 'big boy' (Steeltown) mp3 voice with my musician friend from earlier on he pointed out that even Michael's voice there on both recordings done only 6 months appart (we believe) singing the same tune were totally appart. Not only in 'pace' with the tune but also in tone too.

To his 'musician' trained ear in 'heaven in your arms' was where Michael (if ever) was singing best. Then and there I stressed that young boys vocal cords could be very well be less consistant than a bit later (before going 'cave man deep') at least. And during lengthy studio sessions between takes young vocal chords might alter too.

He ended up stating that to his ears the 3 Jackson Five mp3 vocals had less in common than 'heaven in your arms' had with the Michael he knows. Taking into account his 'musician' ear approach criteria I must admit that I ended hearing all that too. Implying that very young Michael singing was not always so consistant in that regard. Worth point.

In 'heaven in your arms' the singing is consistant and most reminiscing of Michael (if ever) as we'll know him later. Why is that happening more with 'heaven in your arms' than with the 3 other Michael's recordings ? Is it sometimes just like that ? Could 'heaven in your arms' have been precisely at the right conjunction of people, time and place ? 

As we say it is all conjecture and we will probably never know the real truth without either specialist software that would say in all probability it is or isn’t MJ or the session logs. 

Edited June 25, 20232 yr by Chalky

A consideration to factor in would be which take the tracks were, something of course that will remain unknown unless studio paperwork turns up. Sure, there was always pressure to get the tune in the can on the first take, but this could cause nervousness in a very young singer. If the group had rehearsed the track and performed it several times in public, the singer would deliver a less novicey vocal. Heaven Is In Your Arms sure sounds like a youngster rather than an adult - there could only have been a tiny number of budding child-stars guesting in Chicago recording studios in the 1960’s. I think Chalky’s mention of using computer software to analyse the voices would be worth trying out. 

Yes I do get the A.I. 'voice recognition' examination and I've asked friend into that field if ever. But from what I can understand of it it's that as with everything "electro spectro analytic" it has its flaws and limitations. So it's used in combination with a human 'ear' specialist for cross examination too to elaborate the conclusions in meaningful terms.

A bit like statistics if you ask the A.I. to interpret one reading of a statistic chart, it is certainly capable to draw easy enough conclusions rather well. But not necessary much further nor in other ways to see through or by cross readings for other unexpected phenomenon in there. I wouldn't diminish the human factor of the better - authistic kind so easily.

In a way I'm also certain that a 'medical' vocal cord specialist or some specialist alike could shed some interesting lights here too. A bit like C.S.I. relying on both technology and specialists in general science to come to a conclusion and solve the case. Our 'heaven in your arms' case. Ha !

Here's an alternative to your theory. One-derful/ Mar-V-Lus also had another Kid group around the same time as the Admirations and Jackson Five.  And this group also was working with Hayes and Jones. If the Young Folk used another lead vocal and put Miss Madeline in the chorus, it's also possible it could be them.

34 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Here's an alternative to your theory. One-derful/ Mar-V-Lus also had another Kid group around the same time as the Admirations and Jackson Five.  And this group also was working with Hayes and Jones. If the Young Folk used another lead vocal and put Miss Madeline in the chorus, it's also possible it could be them.

Ooh yes. OK. But from memory the lead of 'Joey' was not "rocky" enough and upon replay really not a match. BUT and the but is important here as the Young Folk were a pack with more to them than the delightful Miss Madeleine ('behave myself' fame) and the leader on 'Joey'. Leaving room for other contenders of the pack if ever. Even though we don't know each individually's distinctive voice. But what a great alternative lead this is indeed too. Thanks a lot !

Excerpt from Robert Pruter's book "Chicago Soul" about the Young Folk;

The group was formed in 1964 while the members were still in grade school and performed Miracles songs under the name "Baby Miracles".
 

The group was Madeline Strickland (lead), her brother Glenn Strickland, Patrice Scaggs, Jerry Starks and brothers Johnny and Arthur McThune.

They broke up within a year of the release of "Joey" which was written by Otis Hayes and Jimmy Jones (who also produced it).

36 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Ooh yes. OK. But from memory the lead of 'Joey' was not "rocky" enough and upon replay really not a match. 

Of course it's not a match- the lead on "Joey" is Miss Madeline. That's why I thought it was possible the lead was one of the guys in the group for "Heaven Is In Your Arms".

The Baby Miracles/Young Folk certainly fit the bill age wise and also a Jones/Hayes recording

2 minutes ago, Chalky said:

The Baby Miracles/Young Folk certainly fit the bill age wise and also a Jones/Hayes recording

You beat me to it with the pic. Yeah while the unreleased Baby Miracles 'I Feel Good All Over' gives Miss Madeleine again for lead... Leaving no chance to hear the others if ever they could 'sing' a whole song instead of only backing up.

On 20/06/2023 at 00:58, Frankie Crocker said:

FWIW the Admiration’s singer on Paree sounds very like Little Michael Jackson.... On listening to both sides of the Peaches 45, echoes of the same singer sound through. It does sound like the same lead singer on both records...doing my head in but I think you lot are on to something here!

Ralph Childs stated categorically that "My Admiration ..." is The Admirations and "Heaven ..." definitely is not.

 

 

3 hours ago, Phild said:

Ralph Childs stated categorically that "My Admiration ..." is The Admirations and "Heaven ..." definitely is not.

The vocal mp3's trial from up there says the same. Unanimously all I've 'blind' tested in comparison come to the very same conclusion. Just as it did for me instantly once I've listened to it actively to it and not just in disregard of that 'heaven in your arms' tune.

That which honestly I never did before. As I thought it was only an Admirations side that didn't suit my ear buds or my expectation from them. Paying no more attention to it. But thanks to your comment reporting what Ralph Childs told you in person is now an evidence.

Ever so grateful to you both I am for having shed that 'new light' on that very matter so evidently. To know who is singing is a side matter that remains non the less relevant. Even though it might just remain a mystery for ever. History is made of unsolved issues too.

On 26/06/2023 at 13:21, Tlscapital said:

 To know who is singing is a side matter that remains non the less relevant. Even though it might just remain a mystery for ever. History is made of unsolved issues too.

 Slow down- According to the liner notes of Secret Stash's "Mar-V-Lus-The One-Derful Collection" , The Young Folk's original lead singer Arthur Mcthune says  the group singing on "Heaven Is In Your Arms' is made up of Arthur, Miss Madeline, Patrice Suggs and Marlene Lee.  According to Arthur, Otis Hayes wanted him to join the Admirations  but he decided to stay in his group the Competitors.

     As an aside Madeline, Patrice and Marlene added John Sibley and became The Love Column on Duo. 

23 minutes ago, The Yank said:

 Slow down- According to the liner notes of Secret Stash's "Mar-V-Lus-The One-Derful Collection" , The Young Folk's original lead singer Arthur Mcthune says  the group singing on "Heaven Is In Your Arms' is made up of Arthur, Miss Madeline, Patrice Suggs and Marlene Lee.  According to Arthur, Otis Hayes wanted him to join the Admirations  but he decided to stay in his group the Competitors.

     As an aside Madeline, Patrice and Marlene added John Sibley and became The Love Column on Duo. 

Drawing my brakes... Skreeetch ! That's great info. Thanks for that. As I wanted to ask at one time if anybody had those LP's in order to see if the liner notes would give us clues there. But I did not yet. Nor dared to bother folks on here about this now very 'anoraky' indeep 'wonder who' quest...  

Is that a word by word extract from the Secret-Stash LP ? As reading it (not knowing the source either) they imply that Arthur McThune was the lead singer of the young Folk's although Miss Madeleine (Strickland) seem to be the the leader as shown in the paper photo snippet and as heard on both Mar-V-Lus 45's.

As their 1965 unreleased 'I feel good all over' credited to the Baby Miracle's whose weak young boy lead singer should be Arthur McThune would have have to have practice enough 2 years before recording 'heaven in your arms' if ever it's him. And I still hear no similitude in the voice nor in the respective singing of 'heaven' and 'feel good'.

But for a few backing vocal group sessions with them for sure this makes good sense indeed as it could be them there. While the Miss Madeleine and Young Folk's 'behave myself' have maturer young man for backing vocals. Where the Young Folk's backing group could very well be featured in full formation both on 'Joey' and 'heaven in your arms'. Yep !

       Oh  ye of little faith ......

 

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by The Yank

34 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

 

Is that a word by word extract from the Secret-Stash LP ? As reading it (not knowing the source either) they imply that Arthur McThune was the lead singer of the young Folk's although Miss Madeleine (Strickland) seem to be the the leader as shown in the paper photo snippet and as heard on both Mar-V-Lus 45's.

 

But for a few backing vocal group sessions with them for sure this makes good sense indeed as it could be them there. While the Miss Madeleine and Young Folk's 'behave myself' have maturer young man for backing vocals. Where the Young Folk's backing group could very well be featured in full formation both on 'Joey' and 'heaven in your arms'. Yep !

   After the local success of "Joey" (#7 on the WBEE chart) it was decided that Miss Madeline was going to be spun off as a solo artist. There was no second Young Folks 45. The "maturer young men" you mentioned on "Behave Yourself" are actually Patrice Suggs and Marlene Lee (this is from the liner notes from the Young Folks sections which someone else may want to post) . 

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by The Yank

8 hours ago, The Yank said:

       Oh  ye of little faith ......

That settles this quest once and for all. OK so 'heaven in your arms' is a Young Folk Mar-V-Lus recording that by some quirk of faith with little help of Otis Hayes and Jimmy Jones got issued credited to the Admirations on the flip of an actual Admirations 45 released on Paree.

Likely 'my admiration for you' was also recorded at Mar-V-Lus just before the Admirations got signed to One-Derful. The story told by Arthur McThune to join the Admiration to take the lead somehow sounds partial or off some (old time long ago memories intertwined...) to me.

But the link's between all those people in time and place exists that's for sure. And how he explains all about the 'heaven in your arms' makes it so clear to me now. Only missing the story for the Paree split groups sides on the single. As there must be a story there too... Great stuffs.

My MICHAEL JACKSON theory as a potential singer contender on 'heaven in your arms' is most likely totally ruled out by now. Relying on vague memories of both Larry B. and Arthur Mc. on the matter makes it most plausible for it to be him here. Their words on it corroborate that enough.

Edited June 28, 20232 yr by Tlscapital

Settling this Admirations discography  (leaving only the Peaches releases with a speculated guess for date of releases) at this stage with these clarifications in regard of the Paree single thanks to all (the Yank mostly) we can put a  date of release on all others and once and for all know who is actually singing 'heaven in your arms' that is not the Admirations.

- JUNE 1967- The Admirations 'my admiration for you' B / W the Young Folk (in real with singer Arthur McThune on lead) 'heaven in your arms' on Paree (featuring Otis Hayes & JimmyJones recorded at the One-Derful group)

- JULY* (?) 1967 - The Aspirations 'you left me' on Peaches (with the PEACHES logo to the RIGHT first then repress with the logo to the LEFT) (featuring Eddie Silvers recordeed at One-Derful group + same fonts typos as for the One-Derful presses)

- SEPTEMBER* 1967 - The Admirations 'wait till I get to know you' on Onder-Full (featuring Eddie Silvers for One-Derful group + same fonts typos as for the Peaches presses)

- JANUARY 1968 - The Admirations 'all for you' on One-Derful (NO MORE EDDIE SILVERS !!! + same fonts typos for the Peaches presses)

- FEBRUARY (?) 1968 - The Admirations 'you left me' on Peaches (featuring still Eddie Silvers with his cash-on in revenge record done alone + re-release under their corrected name of ADMIRATIONS (mismatching typo) to cash on it after being cast aside + similar typos for the credits using different fonts in places than for both the Aspirations releases)

Edited June 28, 20232 yr by Tlscapital

6 hours ago, The Yank said:

   After the local success of "Joey" (#7 on the WBEE chart) it was decided that Miss Madeline was going to be spun off as a solo artist. There was no second Young Folks 45. The "maturer young men" you mentioned on "Behave Yourself" are actually Patrice Suggs and Marlene Lee (this is from the liner notes from the Young Folks sections which someone else may want to post) .

Right OK thanks for this vocal backing group "maturer" line-up on 'behave yourself'. Now if ever you could find something about the Eddie Silvers involvement with the Peaches release in the Secret-Stash liner notes or about the last Admirations release not featuring Eddie Silvers for that 'all for you' release that could tell a story please don't hesitate to drop it on here. Thanks a bunch in advance.

This role swapping makes sense in this line-up for 3 singles with 4 songs 'joint-venture' group that the were the Young Folk. With 'Joey' B / W 'lonely girl' featuring Madeleine Strickland on lead released in May 1967, then for the split Paree single 'heaven in your arms' featuring Arthur McThune on lead released in June 1967 and Miss Madeleine's final release of 'lonely girl' B / W 'behave yourself' in August 1967.

The Young Folk productions also taking place in a very short time window frame only predating by 2 or 3 weeks the first Admirations 45 on One-Derful. As for the Arthur McThune version preferring his own kin fidelity not to join the Admirations (also made of 3 brothers) stating from his old memory doing the harmonies in 'heaven in your arms' but not specifying the lead says a little about his memory in testimony accuracy.

All sorted then, decent topic.  Glad my ears didn't deceive cause having listened again at home, despite knowing the answer, I still can hear the slight difference in then voices.  When you look ate the credits though, Jones and Hayes etc across the discs it makes sense.

Superposing the Young Folk / Miss Madeleine entries next to the Admirations discography in their time frame with their now established and dated Paree split 45 shows that the Young Folk had a Mar-V-Lus release prior to this 'heaven in your arms' tune under the Admirations credit.

Knowing that the Young Folk already had an unissued Ma-V-Lus recording dating from 1965 as The Baby Miracles with the dreadful 'feel good all over' it is possible that this later recording 'heaven in your arms' also got rejected or put aside for a later release then forgotten about...

As the Secret-Stash Mar-V-Lus album liner notes states Larry Blasingaine remembered Arthur McThune 'heaven in your arms' as a promising Mar-V-Lus future release... But could the bad "vibes" of the oncoming shut down of Mar-V-Lus have pressed that Paree outsider release ?

Used as a 'B' side filler and credited to the Admirations for the release of the actual Admirations first single 'my admiration for you'. A "common" practice then when artists had no other gear under the hand to release a single with a proper 'B' side. Here likely a Hayes & Jones initiative.

- MAY 1967 - The  Young Folk (Miss Madeleine) 'Joey' on Mar-V-Lus (featuring Otis Hayes & JimmyJones)        

- JUNE 1967- The Admirations 'my admiration for you' B / W the Young Folk (in real with singer Arthur McThune on lead) 'heaven in your arms' on Paree (featuring Otis Hayes & Jimmy Jones recorded for the One-Derful group)

- JULY (?) 1967 - The Aspirations 'you left me' on Peaches (with the PEACHES logo to the RIGHT first then repress with the logo to the LEFT) (featuring Eddie Silvers recordeed for One-Derful group + same fonts typos as for the One-Derful presses)

- AUGUST 1967 - Miss Madeleine 'lonely girl' on Mar-V-Lus (featuring Otis Hayes & JimmyJones  + same fonts typos as for the One-Derful presses)                        

- SEPTEMBER 1967 - The Admirations 'wait till I get to know you' on Onder-Full (featuring Eddie Silvers for One-Derful group + same fonts typos as for the Peaches presses)

- JANUARY 1968 - The Admirations 'all for you' on One-Derful (NO MORE EDDIE SILVERS !!! + same fonts typos for the Peaches presses)

- FEBRUARY (?) 1968 - The Admirations 'you left me' on Peaches (featuring still Eddie Silvers with his cash-on in revenge record done alone + re-release under their corrected name of ADMIRATIONS (mismatching typo) to cash on it after being cast aside + similar typos for the credits using different fonts in places than for both the Aspirations releases)

Edited July 3, 20232 yr by Tlscapital