I'm expecting a lot of stick for this post, but I would like some clarification.

Originally (I thought) WD's were sent to radio stations/DJ's to promote interest in a record and stimulate the general public into buying a record when it was officially released. These were limited press, as the record companies didn't want to spend too much on pressing records if they flopped.

Why are the demo's of Selecta, Hayley, Grapevine and other labels selling for double the issues? Today is a different market to the 60's/70's and there is probably a smaller collecting circle and with web sites like this and the others, raising the profiles of new releases.

When these records are advertised, both issues and demo's seem to be for sale simultaneously, which to me, seems that a false market has been created. I know some people like demo's more than issues (i'm the other way, with a preference for issues). Is there a real need to charge this premium? What is the ratio of Demo's to issues pressed?

I'm not having a go at these labels, I'd just like more clarity as I seem to see a lot more demo's than issues for sale on various web sites.

John

I guess it's more expensive (per copy!) to press up 100 white demos than 1000 colour issues. But I get your point and I agree with you. It's ridiculous.

I'm expecting a lot of stick for this post, but I would like some clarification.

Originally (I thought) WD's were sent to radio stations/DJ's to promote interest in a record and stimulate the general public into buying a record when it was officially released. These were limited press, as the record companies didn't want to spend too much on pressing records if they flopped.

Why are the demo's of Selecta, Hayley, Grapevine and other labels selling for double the issues? Today is a different market to the 60's/70's and there is probably a smaller collecting circle and with web sites like this and the others, raising the profiles of new releases.

When these records are advertised, both issues and demo's seem to be for sale simultaneously, which to me, seems that a false market has been created. I know some people like demo's more than issues (i'm the other way, with a preference for issues). Is there a real need to charge this premium? What is the ratio of Demo's to issues pressed?

I'm not having a go at these labels, I'd just like more clarity as I seem to see a lot more demo's than issues for sale on various web sites.

John

Couldn't agree more, that's why Kent don't sell demos and in fact don't do that many our demos to DJs and radio stations are often regular issues.

Also royalties aren't usually paid on demos so if you want some of your money to go to the artist and song writers, you'd be better off buying the issues.

Hello,

The original reason promotion copies were made was to identify them as being "not for sale" and therefore exempt from mechanical royalties.

Similarly, deletions and cut-outs are often identified by being drilled, marked or cut but the main reason for that is to prevent unscrupulous costomers from returning deletions for full credit as if they had been bought on sale-or-return terms at full dealer prices.

However, record companies are unable to prevent DJs, dealers and fans trading in used records (issues or promos) and it's obvious that promo copies are more desirable (and valuable) to collectors.

It became common in the '80s and '90s, particularly with dance music on 12" singles, for record companies to issue batches of promo copies to be sold in specialist record stores at inflated prices. What isn't clear is if they were accounting to anyone for these sales and I suspect some companies were and others weren't.

With regard to the specialist soul scene, promo copies really serve a VANITY purpose in much the same way as special formats, numbered editions, picture discs etc. I see no problem in specialist labels satisfying the demand by selling promo copies to the public, PROVIDING that they account for these sales of course.

I know that Grapevine, for example, accounted for their sales of promo copies and therefore royalties accrued to licensors and publishers. It should also be noted that without the income from selling promo copies, many releases would not have been commercially viable.

With our labels, Selecta and Shotgun, we don't sell promo copies direct to the public but we are unable to prevent third parties from doing so and in most cases we often welcome the exposure. It's all about making a noise, creating a buzz and supplying to demand.

With most of our releases there only a dozen or so promo copies in circulation.

What is far more important here is the actual payment of royalties. The fact is that many labels are releasing records without a license and without paying a penny to the copyright owners. Additionally, many labels obtain master licenses but manage to evade payment of statutory mechanical royalties. You'd be surprised at some of the culprits - big and small.

Releasing a record as a limited edition, special format or whatever is no different in most cases to allowing so-called "promo" copies to be sold to the public for vanity purposes. What's important is the ACCOUNTING of these sales.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

To add a point, I know of some cases where there are more promo copies than regular issue copies! It will be interesting to see if market values reflect this fact in the future.

Maybe one day soul collectors will pay extra for issue copies???

Paul Mooney

Hello,

The original reason promotion copies were made was to identify them as being "not for sale" and therefore exempt from mechanical royalties.

Similarly, deletions and cut-outs are often identified by being drilled, marked or cut but the main reason for that is to prevent unscrupulous costomers from returning deletions for full credit as if they had been bought on sale-or-return terms at full dealer prices.

However, record companies are unable to prevent DJs, dealers and fans trading in used records (issues or promos) and it's obvious that promo copies are more desirable (and valuable) to collectors.

It became common in the '80s and '90s, particularly with dance music on 12" singles, for record companies to issue batches of promo copies to be sold in specialist record stores at inflated prices. What isn't clear is if they were accounting to anyone for these sales and I suspect some companies were and others weren't.

With regard to the specialist soul scene, promo copies really serve a VANITY purpose in much the same way as special formats, numbered editions, picture discs etc. I see no problem in specialist labels satisfying the demand by selling promo copies to the public, PROVIDING that they account for these sales of course.

I know that Grapevine, for example, accounted for their sales of promo copies and therefore royalties accrued to licensors and publishers. It should also be noted that without the income from selling promo copies, many releases would not have been commercially viable.

With our labels, Selecta and Shotgun, we don't sell promo copies direct to the public but we are unable to prevent third parties from doing so and in most cases we often welcome the exposure. It's all about making a noise, creating a buzz and supplying to demand.

With most of our releases there only a dozen or so promo copies in circulation.

What is far more important here is the actual payment of royalties. The fact is that many labels are releasing records without a license and without paying a penny to the copyright owners. Additionally, many labels obtain master licenses but manage to evade payment of statutory mechanical royalties. You'd be surprised at some of the culprits - big and small.

Releasing a record as a limited edition, special format or whatever is no different in most cases to allowing so-called "promo" copies to be sold to the public for vanity purposes. What's important is the ACCOUNTING of these sales.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

Great reply that Paul

Rather than 'vanity' i'd suggest it's really a 'collectors thing' (and not just on the Soul scene either). It's natural for record collectors to want the 'limited edition' 'special collectors edition' etc etc and owning a demo (which is 'usually' made in much smaller quantities than the issue) to me comes into this category!

Cheers

Steve

Great reply that Paul

Rather than 'vanity' i'd suggest it's really a 'collectors thing' (and not just on the Soul scene either). It's natural for record collectors to want the 'limited edition' 'special collectors edition' etc etc and owning a demo (which is 'usually' made in much smaller quantities than the issue) to me comes into this category!

Cheers

Steve

Steve I agree with you 100% - it's nothing to do with vanity, it's about your personal preferences in the context of your collecting.

For example I have collected all the original 70's series of Grapevine releases in demo format, and for completion have done likewise with all the recent Grapevine 2000 releases. I don't show these off; they don't leave my house; I just like them as a set, just as they are. Had I collected the 70's series in issue format, I would most probably have collected the 2000 series as issues - as I say, just a personal preference.

Brian

I'm expecting a lot of stick for this post, but I would like some clarification.

Originally (I thought) WD's were sent to radio stations/DJ's to promote interest in a record and stimulate the general public into buying a record when it was officially released. These were limited press, as the record companies didn't want to spend too much on pressing records if they flopped.

Why are the demo's of Selecta, Hayley, Grapevine and other labels selling for double the issues? Today is a different market to the 60's/70's and there is probably a smaller collecting circle and with web sites like this and the others, raising the profiles of new releases.

When these records are advertised, both issues and demo's seem to be for sale simultaneously, which to me, seems that a false market has been created. I know some people like demo's more than issues (i'm the other way, with a preference for issues). Is there a real need to charge this premium? What is the ratio of Demo's to issues pressed?

I'm not having a go at these labels, I'd just like more clarity as I seem to see a lot more demo's than issues for sale on various web sites.

John

Allready done this one,and got hammered for it

Maybe one day soul collectors will pay extra for issue copies???

Paul Mooney

This is already happening in a big way with US records. Stock copies of RCA, MGM and ABC releases are usually now more sought after than the promo copies - whether thats to do with the records history in that in the case of an issue, somewone would have had to order it specially or at least go to a shop to buy it. Not saying I'm Mystic Meg or anything but I wrote an article on this subject back in about 1993 saying that people will eventually wise up and realise that demo copies were simply giveaways and issues will become the main currency in rarities. If a promo of Gene Toones can reach 1500 quid - thats for a record that was originally given away - then the issue copy is going to be worth double that. I turned down 800 quid for the dean courtney mgm issue...then let my best mate have it for what I bought it for (150), I must have been f*cking mental

Hello Pete,

You're quite right. At one point in the US there were almost three thousand radio stations who played black music so you can assume that some companies pressed more than 3,000 promo copies to service them all. For pop music, the figures are much higher.

If the subsequent release was a poor seller or was cancelled or withdrawn, it's likely that the regular issue copies will be much harder to find.

The same applies to many UK releases today. In some cases there may be less issues than promo copies in circulation.

Best regards,

Paul

Here's an interesting (or boring) piece of trivia for collectors.

With our Selecta and Shotgun singles, most of the issue copies are "dinked" so that they have large centre holes. Only a few weren't dinked (about 50 of each issue) and most of those were sold through one outlet, Soul Supermarket.

The undinked copies are therefore worth looking out for and they can't be faked because you can dink an undinked record but you can't undink a dinked record!

Paul Mooney

...it's nothing to do with vanity...

Brian

Hello Brian

You're so vain,

You really think this song is about you,

Don't you?

Repeat chorus and ad-lib to fade...

Hayley does white demos for collectors. Quite frankly, they are a pain because separate artwork has to be done and separate paper labels, which, when you only do a small number, become very expensive. That is one reason why the retail cost is more. We haven't done white promos for every release, and that's why.

Hope this is helpful.

Hello Brian

You're so vain,

You really think this song is about you,

Don't you?

Repeat chorus and ad-lib to fade...

This is already happening in a big way with US records. Stock copies of RCA, MGM and ABC releases are usually now more sought after than the promo copies - whether thats to do with the records history in that in the case of an issue, somewone would have had to order it specially or at least go to a shop to buy it. Not saying I'm Mystic Meg or anything but I wrote an article on this subject back in about 1993 saying that people will eventually wise up and realise that demo copies were simply giveaways and issues will become the main currency in rarities. If a promo of Gene Toones can reach 1500 quid - thats for a record that was originally given away - then the issue copy is going to be worth double that. I turned down 800 quid for the dean courtney mgm issue...then let my best mate have it for what I bought it for (150), I must have been f*cking mental

This warrants a seperate thread methinks (although it's probably been done loads of times before)

But (with the case of the UK demo) it's still the 'collector' mentality at work here!

For instance, I'm a sucker for collecting issues where they are infinitely rarer than demos (Tony Drake, Channel 3 etc etc) BUT also vice-versa, usually on say, Motown hits were i love having white demos (although these must have both sides on them or it's back to the issue!)

Cheers

Steve

taking this on just for interests sake, promo cd's that i am receiving now are being individually numbered and registered to me, clearly stating that it is still 'technically' still in the ownership of the record company, with the implicit 'threat' that if it turns up anywhere else it can be traced back to me.

This is actually the way its always supposed to have been anyway but impossible to police, but is indicative of the paranoia that exists these days.

issues do sometimes get the flip which doesn't appear on the demo's that just have the same song on both sides. In this case they should probably be worth more as you get 2 songs.

not realy relevant to the original post just an obseravtion which could effect price.....

I think what everyone is missing here is DJ promos are meant to be exactly that. FREE promotional copies, sent to radio stations and up-front disc jockeys who will play the track and expose it to a wide audience.

The idea of having to PAY double for the privilege of doing a record label's promotional campaign is, quite frankly, a rip-off.

Then again, I prefer issues because I like bright colours - shallow? Moi?

I think what everyone is missing here is DJ promos are meant to be exactly that. FREE promotional copies, sent to radio stations and up-front disc jockeys who will play the track and expose it to a wide audience.

The idea of having to PAY double for the privilege of doing a record label's promotional campaign is, quite frankly, a rip-off.

Then again, I prefer issues because I like bright colours - shallow? Moi?

I agree. Is there a valid case for 7" vinyl promos in the 21st century anyway? Surely radio stations will play the tracks off CD or other digital forms? As for the DJ fraternity we're talking about a scene where the 'up-front' DJs who are given the track for wider exposure purposes could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand and therefore could easily be given acetates.

They only exist because (1) historically they did in 60s America and (2) They can be sold for a premium to fools with more money than sense.

Edited July 3, 200717 yr by sweeney

This warrants a seperate thread methinks (although it's probably been done loads of times before)

But (with the case of the UK demo) it's still the 'collector' mentality at work here!

For instance, I'm a sucker for collecting issues where they are infinitely rarer than demos (Tony Drake, Channel 3 etc etc) BUT also vice-versa, usually on say, Motown hits were i love having white demos (although these must have both sides on them or it's back to the issue!)

Cheers

Steve

Yeah and you'd miss a lot of good B sides too - especially with Motown. As a kid I used to collect demos because of the "Not for sale" mystique but then had a change of heart many years ago. Now prefer issues with invariably a good deep, funk, or northern flip. Channel 3 is a case in point, as is Arnold Blair and Rozetta Johnson on Clintone.......Steve

Here's an interesting (or boring) piece of trivia for collectors.

With our Selecta and Shotgun singles, most of the issue copies are "dinked" so that they have large centre holes. Only a few weren't dinked (about 50 of each issue) and most of those were sold through one outlet, Soul Supermarket.

The undinked copies are therefore worth looking out for and they can't be faked because you can dink an undinked record but you can't undink a dinked record!

Paul Mooney

Hi Paul,

Yes that's me just being difficult! But a big thank you for always keeping a few undinked ones for me

Since Paul started doing the Selecta and Shotgun releases I've always stocked them on my website, because they have always been quality releases and I'm glad to be able to help out an independant label that is releasing quality new soul. But to me Selecta & Shotgun are UK labels and UK 45s have small undinked centres so I've always requested these for my stock....really looking forward to the new release as well.

On the general issue/demo debate I'm generally not bothered what format I have the 45 on except where demos are double sided then i prefer to have the issue.

Adam.