When did the americans grasp the rarity of northern soul records, and which ones were sought after in the uk (well give or take a few they describe as northern soul on ebay ) - was it the advent of ebay, record price guides e.g. john manship's? Obvioulsy looking at someof the stuff turning upon ebay at the moment just goes toshow they are still over there for finding., so where do they get them from, house clearances, etc?

just wondered, coz years ago they didnt have a clue!

When did the americans grasp the rarity of northern soul records, and which ones were sought after in the uk (well give or take a few they describe as northern soul on ebay ) - was it the advent of ebay, record price guides e.g. john manship's? Obvioulsy looking at someof the stuff turning upon ebay at the moment just goes toshow they are still over there for finding., so where do they get them from, house clearances, etc?

just wondered, coz years ago they didnt have a clue!

When the f*cking price guide came out!

When the f*cking price guide came out!

and scuppered all of us pete!!

and scuppered all of us pete!!

All except one...

When did the americans grasp the rarity of northern soul records, and which ones were sought after in the uk (well give or take a few they describe as northern soul on ebay ) - was it the advent of ebay, record price guides e.g. john manship's? Obvioulsy looking at someof the stuff turning upon ebay at the moment just goes toshow they are still over there for finding., so where do they get them from, house clearances, etc?

just wondered, coz years ago they didnt have a clue!

in my opinion, there were always some dealers "in the know" - and a few collectors. the first mass wave of price awarines was Simon Soussan. he put an ad in Goldmine, saying he would pay $15 for any record on this page. Shortly afterwards (from the stories I hear - it was because he only got a couple of records from the ad) he put out his Northern and Motown price guide. It was the beginning of the end. eBay was the next step, and once ebay was going, there was no reason not to put out price guides.

Prior to the "Book" there was a quite an extensive "priced" wants list doing the rounds amongst a lot of American dealers, from a U.K. dealer. I'd be interested in how many copies of the Book, in it's various incarnations have been sold in the U.S. , it seems to be EVERYWHERE!! I'm philosophical about it, and certainly don't see JM as some sort of Pariah, if it wasn't John, someone else would have quickly cornered that market, so good luck to him, it just irritates me that people don't know how to use it - £100 in the book, top price for a Mint Copy of something DOES NOT EQUAL $300 for a trashed piece of Sh*t with no label!!

Des Parker

Edited May 27, 200915 yr by SOUL.INC

Prior to the "Book" there was a quite an extensive "priced" wants list doing the rounds amongst a lot of American dealers, from a U.K. dealer. I'd be interested in how many copies of the Book, in it's various incarnations have been sold in the U.S. , it seems to be EVERYWHERE!! I'm philosohical about it, and certainly don't see JM as some sort of Pariah, if it wasn't John, someone else would have quickly cornered that market, so good luck to him, it just irritates me that people don't know how to use it - £100 in the book, top price for a Mint Copy of something DOES NOT EQUAL $300 for a trashed piece of Sh*t with no label!!

Des Parker

Im happier that Manship and Brown have done books rather than the Soussan book that was going around 10+ years ago. The prices were way off mark for more than 50% of the book - Motown related records were hugely overrated and many 50UKP records were in the book for $500 etc..

in my opinion, there were always some dealers "in the know" - and a few collectors. the first mass wave of price awarines was Simon Soussan. he put an ad in Goldmine, saying he would pay $15 for any record on this page. Shortly afterwards (from the stories I hear - it was because he only got a couple of records from the ad) he put out his Northern and Motown price guide. It was the beginning of the end. eBay was the next step, and once ebay was going, there was no reason not to put out price guides.

Sorry but thats only part true, Soussans book was a very limited publication and most didn't get distributed, his book was made up mainly from a Koppell wants list anyway - when ebay started I and a few others were in clover, it was only around 2001-2002 that everyone seemed to join ebay and then of course everyone was after the same records. Once the price guide was out, we'd had it. Don't forget you could get great records out of Discoveries up until the price guide came out as well. Let's put it another way - that price guide has almost put me out of business, so I'm f*cked if I'm going to praise it, not that I don't use it, it's great for b sides and catalogue numbers but to give all that information out, it's like selling your soul.

nb John told me he only put his out because Tim Brown was going to do it anyway. This isn't about John or Tim Brown, it's about the existance of a price guide, wouldn't matter if it was Rod Hull and Emu who put it out, the damage was done.

Edited May 27, 200915 yr by Pete S

it's like selling your soul.

For top dollar

Soussans book was a very limited publication and most didn't get distributed,

It certainly found its way into just about every collector's record shop from Boston to Philly as well as to most of the serious collectors and dealers who frequented the monthly record shows in the northeastern US, and it most certainly had a huge impact on the price and availability of records.

While price guides have a way of seemingly making records less affordable to those acting as a middle-man, there's a flipside to this as well. It makes those records more available to the people willing to pay the price for them by virtue of the fact that the low-balling middle-man will leave records behind that he deems too expensive. Good (read pricey) records thus accumulate over time and the people willing to pay more for records end up getting a very fine selection of records to choose from.

Another phenomenon also occurs. Those middle-men wishing to remain in the business of buying and selling records usually end up paying closer and closer to the book price for quite a lot of items and then marking them up over book price when selling them on. I think that's part of the reason values have skyrocketed over the last few years. If you look back to Soussan's book or even Manship's first guide, some of those prices look almost cheap now.

I think the advent of ebay as a central marketplace for record transactions has had a much larger impact on the buying and selling of records than any price guide, however. The ability of remote sellers to reach even more remote buyers eliminates the need to rely on a guide to value most records. Any record that is well-known amongst the collecting community will find its rightful value via the supply and demand on ebay. One of the only categories you can't put on ebay and get a predictably decent price for is the "unknown" or "lesser known" 45, and price guides don't really help or hurt those sales either.

For every dealer in the US in the know there are plenty who dont that was the mantra right up to the quides and basically if you were fortunate to get out there then you coul do quite well.Alot of Us dealers now sell online and the quides are used alot in this respect,IF YOUR OUT THERE INFRONT OF THEM [the lesser known ones]then green talks imo.

BAZ A

It certainly found its way into just about every collector's record shop from Boston to Philly as well as to most of the serious collectors and dealers who frequented the monthly record shows in the northeastern US, and it most certainly had a huge impact on the price and availability of records.

While price guides have a way of seemingly making records less affordable to those acting as a middle-man, there's a flipside to this as well. It makes those records more available to the people willing to pay the price for them by virtue of the fact that the low-balling middle-man will leave records behind that he deems too expensive. Good (read pricey) records thus accumulate over time and the people willing to pay more for records end up getting a very fine selection of records to choose from.

Another phenomenon also occurs. Those middle-men wishing to remain in the business of buying and selling records usually end up paying closer and closer to the book price for quite a lot of items and then marking them up over book price when selling them on. I think that's part of the reason values have skyrocketed over the last few years. If you look back to Soussan's book or even Manship's first guide, some of those prices look almost cheap now.

I think the advent of ebay as a central marketplace for record transactions has had a much larger impact on the buying and selling of records than any price guide, however. The ability of remote sellers to reach even more remote buyers eliminates the need to rely on a guide to value most records. Any record that is well-known amongst the collecting community will find its rightful value via the supply and demand on ebay. One of the only categories you can't put on ebay and get a predictably decent price for is the "unknown" or "lesser known" 45, and price guides don't really help or hurt those sales either.

Well said not a truer word spoken!!

BAZ A.

Sorry but thats only part true, Soussans book was a very limited publication and most didn't get distributed, his book was made up mainly from a Koppell wants list anyway - when ebay started I and a few others were in clover, it was only around 2001-2002 that everyone seemed to join ebay and then of course everyone was after the same records. Once the price guide was out, we'd had it. Don't forget you could get great records out of Discoveries up until the price guide came out as well. Let's put it another way - that price guide has almost put me out of business, so I'm f*cked if I'm going to praise it, not that I don't use it, it's great for b sides and catalogue numbers but to give all that information out, it's like selling your soul.

nb John told me he only put his out because Tim Brown was going to do it anyway. This isn't about John or Tim Brown, it's about the existance of a price guide, wouldn't matter if it was Rod Hull and Emu who put it out, the damage was done.

As someone who was going to all the record shows around the time, Soussans book was everywhere. Photocopies were at every dealers table. Maybe he wasnt selling em, but they were there. That was about the time I decided that it would be too hard to make a living doing records, and instead opened a scooter shop

It certainly found its way into just about every collector's record shop from Boston to Philly as well as to most of the serious collectors and dealers who frequented the monthly record shows in the northeastern US, and it most certainly had a huge impact on the price and availability of records.

Maybe, but the second print run never appeared because he defaulted on payment on the first or something like that - and the fact I've twice sold my copies of this book for over £50 must say something about it's availability, I fluked the first one off a Motown collector and paid £40 for the second off ebay.

As someone who was going to all the record shows around the time, Soussans book was everywhere. Photocopies were at every dealers table. Maybe he wasnt selling em, but they were there. That was about the time I decided that it would be too hard to make a living doing records, and instead opened a scooter shop

I've always thought you could have made a good living if you'd chosen records as a career . For a period of about 10 years (approx 1996 to 2006), despite price guides and ebay (an argument could be made that it was in no small part DUE to price guides and ebay), I was able to vastly expand my collection and earn a tidy second income from selling the "spares" and non-northern items I picked up. I must also say that for many of the rarer items on my wants list, I've always told US dealers that I would pay the full book price and sometimes would pay a premium over book price. Some records just don't turn up often enough to quibble over the price.

No doubt Des will tell me if I'm wrong, but I heard at the last Allentown 45 Show that the dealer who made most money on the saturday was the one selling Manships guide....

Maybe, but the second print run never appeared because he defaulted on payment on the first or something like that - and the fact I've twice sold my copies of this book for over £50 must say something about it's availability, I fluked the first one off a Motown collector and paid £40 for the second off ebay.

Pete, you're talking about the rarity of the book itself and the collectibility of it now - probably to UK buyers. That's got nothing to do with what Gene is saying about the information from the guide (via the book itself or via photocopy) being readily available in the mid 90's at record shows and shops all over the northeastern US. Simon marketed the book to US dealers, particularly those outside of California. I'm sure he didn't want it ending up in the UK - what good would that have done him? Gene and I would know. We were here in the US trying to buy lots of records at that time.

Pete, you're talking about the rarity of the book itself and the collectibility of it now - probably to UK buyers. That's got nothing to do with what Gene is saying about the information from the guide (via the book itself or via photocopy) being readily available in the mid 90's at record shows and shops all over the northeastern US. Simon marketed the book to US dealers, particularly those outside of California. I'm sure he didn't want it ending up in the UK - what good would that have done him? Gene and I would know. We were here in the US trying to buy lots of records at that time.

Yeah I guess you're right - it was years before I saw a copy.

I have a copy of the Sousan book, bought it in LA in the early 90s. I`d gladly pay those prices now, or even the prices in Maships edition one or two. My beef with Johns book is that the prices have by and large gone up with every edition, when i real terms they have`nt. At the moment you have the crazy situation where some US dealers think the book is gospel and they think that its still 2 for 1 dollar pound exchange rate. hence a genuine £200 pound record thats in the book at £300 comes up for sale at $600 at a record show...where do you begin to negotiate on that!? You should see the look on some dealers faces when you say "No, its just too much" and walk away......

As previously said when you are out there searching thru boxes of tunes and you have a pile worth several hundred dollars the cash talks and most dealers realise you have come a long way and need to make a deal.The people making the most money now on rare soul 45s are the US guys who put an ad in the local paper etc and get calls from people wanting to sell whole loads of 45s and good luck to them, going to see some of these people can be a dangerous experience. I know of guys who "check in" with a friend, tell them the address where they are going to and "if I have`nt called you by 7.00pm come and find me" type of thing!

I first went to the US in 1991 and have been 28 times in total, been to every State apart from Maine and spent about 18 months of my 39 years in the States looking for records, it has never been easy but i have always done ok, had some of the best times of my life there and met some of the best people i have ever met and made some genuine friends from people i met in search of records.

Chris.

As a 'Yank' active in collecting records since the late 1970s, I've been asked for 'northern' soul records since the early 1980s. The first one that sticks in my mind was the Bell Boys "I don't want to lose you", probably as I lived in Akron and the record was recorded there (the band was from PA, relocated to Youngstown, Ohio). Sometime around 1990 I was given two different priced want lists, all handwritten. There was also an 'addendum' sheet that included recent finds. I also acquired a typed bound price list, two different editions. I used all of them for reference and for pricing. I remember when I junked Tina Roberts "one way...." and looked it up - that night was dinner at my favorite expensive restaurant (sold it for $600 in VG shape). There was also several major 'wanted to buy' ads in Goldmine and Discoveries magazine starting in the mid 1980s. I won't name names.....you all know who was making the lists.

Soul records are still findable at non-book prices here. Not everyone is bothered about looking up records in price guides, especially if they are dealing with loads of promos or records too beat (but playable) to list. I hear of good records, and even the occasional new/unknown record, finds all the time. Some of which are never offered on the open market and go right into US collections

- George

As previously said when you are out there searching thru boxes of tunes and you have a pile worth several hundred dollars the cash talks and most dealers realise you have come a long way and need to make a deal.The people making the most money now on rare soul 45s are the US guys who put an ad in the local paper etc and get calls from people wanting to sell whole loads of 45s and good luck to them, going to see some of these people can be a dangerous experience. I know of guys who "check in" with a friend, tell them the address where they are going to and "if I have`nt called you by 7.00pm come and find me" type of thing!

Chris.

i had an ad in the paper for maybe 3 years and never felt threatened in the way you are describing and I'm in Chicago. I also didn't really have any big scores though so it's not like it was "worth it" but i built up a lot of my collection.

There were price guides in the US before Manship.

Jerry Osbornes Rockin Records was one though it didn't always have accurate information ...it listed Lou Pride with a $20 value and Flamin King as $30 and Tina Britt The Real Thing on Eastern at $200...it was the book used by many record dealers, one in North Carolina that I used to go to used it.....only wish I had found a Lou Pride there

ebay definetly had an effect but I think Popsike has a huge influence because it provides chronological information on the internet of what records sell for

There were price guides in the US before Manship.

Jerry Osbornes Rockin Records was one though it didn't always have accurate information ...it listed Lou Pride with a $20 value and Flamin King as $30 and Tina Britt The Real Thing on Eastern at $200...it was the book used by many record dealers, one in North Carolina that I used to go to used it.....only wish I had found a Lou Pride there

ebay definetly had an effect but I think Popsike has a huge influence because it provides chronological information on the internet of what records sell for

Osborne still isn't accurate- if you look at the 19th edition (2008?) he has "Just A Little Misunderstanding" by the Contours as a $750- 1000 record !

Osborne still isn't accurate- if you look at the 19th edition (2008?) he has "Just A Little Misunderstanding" by the Contours as a $750- 1000 record !

Osbournes used to list 7th Ave Aviators as $5 - I loved finding dealers/shops that went by Osbournes...

I think that the internet in general and ebay in particular are the main cause of the problem.

I used to go to the US 3 to 5 times a year every year from 87 to 98 specifically to buy records. I had some great times and found some amazing tunes. Even on a "bad" trip I would find enough stuff to put a few choice pieces in my collection and the proceeds from the rest of the finds would completely cover the costs of the trip and leave me enough to buy the plane tickets for the next!

However the last time I went on a pure record buying trip was summer '99, and although I still found stuff it was obvious that the halcyon days were over. Too many priced wants lists around, too many UK collectors willing to pay over the odds for even mediocre records meant that most shops and dealers I visited had dramatically hiked their prices and were wanting silly money even for stuff they didn't have a price guide for but just that "looked" Northern.

That's when I decided it was no longer worth going to the US specifically to buy records. I have continued to go regularly to the US (I've been twice this year already) but only for holidays or on business, and I rarely venture into a record shop these days unless I'm stuck for something to do.

Phil

people in this thread keep blaming the price guides, internet, etc. for lack of finding records. I agree that those are huge things but they're also leaving out the fact that records in many places in the us have also just dried up. maybe the internet accelerated the process, but I can't even find trashed, overpriced, common 45s lots of the time anymore.

Mmmm interesting thread

Just arrived back yesterday from a trip to the USA, which was very short notice to look up some acts, go to a wedding and have a "little" look for some sounds.

Now in the space of 18 months I've noticed something serious going on, I've been going to the USA for 30 years- always found stuff (as I did this time)-but Ive always also bought "Odd ball" labels blind- in 4 days of solid hunting through plenty of records (50,000 45s plus) I haven't bought 1 local label record-60s or 70s.

Now this suggest to me that record "Hunters" are buying up local stuff-as with the advent of "Funky" items now becoming "Big ticket" items as well they can't really miss out, buy them 25 cents to $3 dollar, either check Johns book or stick em on E-bay and Bobs your uncle! If its rare or in demand it sells!

I also had a look through 1,000 items priced via Johns book £20, £30 £50 etc, the dealer takes $3-$5 average on them due to the fact he cant sell them ! Most stuff is at nighters for £5 to £10 max. Which may suggest the book is "Over-priced" on common stuff.

Ive bought about 150 45s and spent $350 what did I pay ? most expensive was $20, cheapest 20 cents, loads to sell on to make my $350 back, a couple of "nice" items for the collection plus a load of US Motown demos- Tons of enjoyment, a couple of "Heart stoppers" (Bobby McClure on Sedrick as i split a pile it was the top record and I only saw the Sedrick !) and I just love finding them.

A couple of great albums for a buck each as well.

All I kept thinking is "What did we leave when i was with tats in the 80s and 90s"

Condition is also another factor, anything MINT will be snapprd up regardless of genre if its cheap enough Ive probably got £3,000 to £5,000 worth of records for just over £200 so worth the effort.

Best thing I saw but wasn't for sale (yet) YUM YUMs ISSUE ABC-so they are still out there !

Rob

people in this thread keep blaming the price guides, internet, etc. for lack of finding records. I agree that those are huge things but they're also leaving out the fact that records in many places in the us have also just dried up. maybe the internet accelerated the process, but I can't even find trashed, overpriced, common 45s lots of the time anymore.

Hi Boba

your version of "The antiques Roadshow" is also to blame, I watched an old programme on cable that showed a guy with a small record box with about 40 45s that was valued at over $1,000, I couldn't see anything special, but the "Expert" kept prattling on about collectors items !

Rob

Hi Boba

your version of "The antiques Roadshow" is also to blame, I watched an old programme on cable that showed a guy with a small record box with about 40 45s that was valued at over $1,000, I couldn't see anything special, but the "Expert" kept prattling on about collectors items !

Rob

there is this hippie record appraiser on the US antiques roadshow, he knows about stuff like psych and garage and beatles. I've seen him appraise a beatles butcher cover, a bunch of old posters for bands like the chocolate watchband, etc. I do agree that in general the antiques roadshow has raised the visibility of people's old junk being worth money though. With soul probably price guides, ebay, etc. has affected it more, but I still think the reason people can't find records anymore is because the records have dried up.

there is this hippie record appraiser on the US antiques roadshow, he knows about stuff like psych and garage and beatles. I've seen him appraise a beatles butcher cover, a bunch of old posters for bands like the chocolate watchband, etc. I do agree that in general the antiques roadshow has raised the visibility of people's old junk being worth money though. With soul probably price guides, ebay, etc. has affected it more, but I still think the reason people can't find records anymore is because the records have dried up.

There seem to be plenty of Albums for sale, but 45s pre 1985 were VERY hard to find outside of the normal outlets or collectors/specialist shops. i didn't event see any record boxes for sale this time !

there is this hippie record appraiser on the US antiques roadshow, he knows about stuff like psych and garage and beatles. I've seen him appraise a beatles butcher cover, a bunch of old posters for bands like the chocolate watchband, etc. I do agree that in general the antiques roadshow has raised the visibility of people's old junk being worth money though. With soul probably price guides, ebay, etc. has affected it more, but I still think the reason people can't find records anymore is because the records have dried up.

I agree with you there. I used to have my pick of stores here in NJ and could easily go into NYC to go visit lots more. The number of stores is now countable on one hand. Of the music stores around where I work - non of them have any 45s and mostly just used 80s LPs. Mic Mac 12"s anyone?

Gene

Edited May 29, 200915 yr by Gene

Had a look recently going to Pasadena record fair first sun month got there 5 am top level all priced re manships book noticed some were polishing them ! On the 2nd floor asked a seller if he had Manships book ''no is it any good '' had loads 5 for a dollar lots popcorn like Bruce channel . Checked the record shops Rockaway ect they had loads around 5 us . Great to pick up the new Garage price guide by Barry wickham & Geoffrey Richman wellrecomended. Scored a few knocking on doors in Compton & Watt's . Great to see my mate pick up the Soulful Experience l/p on tigerlilly sealed of a mexican in car park for a dollar . Can't wait to go back next yr anyone been to Austin record fair ? best john in da sun

Ps nice to see my Montereys going well on manships cleared a few floors with that class tune in Brissie

PPS Talking of books the Funk lexicon is a must have with a chapter on record dating ect