gotta say after 30 years of listening to ns/motown david ruffins vocals are probably my favourite male vocals ever, the guy was a genius, but what about the dark side to ruffin eg being an egotistic,habitual drug user, woman beater. read in martha reeves auto biography that he was suspected of a hammer attack on tammi terrell, watch i think everyone knows what happened to her,whats your opinion

gotta say after 30 years of listening to ns/motown david ruffins vocals are probably my favourite male vocals ever, the guy was a genius, but what about the dark side to ruffin eg being an egotistic,habitual drug user, woman beater. read in martha reeves auto biography that he was suspected of a hammer attack on tammi terrell, watch i think everyone knows what happened to her,whats your opinion

BOTH!!!!

god didnt know about any of his dark side! what goes on behind closed doors eh...what a shame and such a contradiction to his music/sound... shatters my illusions... cheers! ha x

god didnt know about any of his dark side! what goes on behind closed doors eh...what a shame and such a contradiction to his music/sound... shatters my illusions... cheers! ha x

If you get the chance watch The Temptations Story DVD'

Alot of his dark side shows through.

Sadly, like so many talented performers, a flawed character.

If you get the chance watch The Temptations Story DVD'

Alot of his dark side shows through.

cracking film seen it a bout 4 times

if it was true that he hit Tammi Terrell with a hammer then he was a c*nt .... any man who does something like that is lower than a snakes bollox

both, in equal measures, as they say, theres a fine line between genius & madness, most artists walk the line

gotta say after 30 years of listening to ns/motown david ruffins vocals are probably my favourite male vocals ever, the guy was a genius, but what about the dark side to ruffin eg being an egotistic,habitual drug user, woman beater. read in martha reeves auto biography that he was suspected of a hammer attack on tammi terrell, watch i think everyone knows what happened to her,whats your opinion

What about both ..

The same can be said for many more soul singers and other artists too....

No doubt, David Ruffin was one of the finest voices in Soul music.

Sure, he was a flawed character, full of dark contradictions. His ego got the best of him and he was, eventually, shown the door.

The Tammi stories, if true, are horrific. Of course, the Man was a slave to the drugs that eventually killed him. But he was some Soul Singer.

Statue of A Fool, the song he always claimed that he wrote (though this was disputed) sums him up so well.

Stil llove him as a great (truly great) artist.

Sean

Surprised to see people say they knew nothing of all this...

Clearly another tormented soul whose anguished vocal genius probably emanated from his personal inner conflicts.

Strange how the romance of songs and records gets automatically transposed onto the personalities of those who perform them.

For all his faults DAVID RUFFIN gave us some beautiful moments of art, something which many other 'brutes' will not manage.

Surprised to see people say they knew nothing of all this...

Clearly another tormented soul whose anguished vocal genius probably emanated from his personal inner conflicts.

Strange how the romance of songs and records gets automatically transposed onto the personalities of those who perform them.

For all his faults DAVID RUFFIN gave us some beautiful moments of art, something which many other 'brutes' will not manage.

Agree mate. The negatives aspects of his life are well publicised. The Tammi stories and rumours are legend.

His genius lives on through his work, and he was certainly a bad mutha in many respects!

Still grateful for the magnificent work he left behind.

Sean

Don't care how great a singer you are,or how Soulful you are,or if you are in my favourite band of all time....DON'T HIT A WOMAN!!

Especially not Tammi FFS!

Sean

Don't care how great a singer you are,or how Soulful you are,or if you are in my favourite band of all time....DON'T HIT A WOMAN!!

I did not see anybody advocating that but I tell you something, if you put a magnifying glass over the lives of countless Northern Soul 'heroes', you'll find many, many similar recurring stories.

They are social issues and representative of a certain sub-culture especially of the times....

Their art is seperate. I cannot see anybody throwing away their MARVIN GAYE or DAVID RUFFIN records on account of such matters. I know I won't.

Especially not Tammi FFS!

Sean

No not TAMMI, my dream vote in the fittest female Soul Singer of all time by a mile - but that's transgressing slightly!

Agree with what's said here, a monster but a monster with one of the best voices ever.

gotta say after 30 years of listening to ns/motown david ruffins vocals are probably my favourite male vocals ever, the guy was a genius, but what about the dark side to ruffin eg being an egotistic,habitual drug user, woman beater. read in martha reeves auto biography that he was suspected of a hammer attack on tammi terrell, watch i think everyone knows what happened to her,whats your opinion

Read it was a crash helmet DR hit Tammi with, before escaping from a hotel window when her family turned up. The hammer attack, according to her sister, was inflicted by James Brown and pretty serious by all accounts. She was on tour at the time and Gene Chandler (who she'd gone to for help) was so concerned about her physical wellbeing he phoned her family to come and rescue her.

Edited October 23, 200915 yr by isis

Ruffin, fundamentally a bad person with a great voice.

What 'Sub-Culture' would this be then? One that says,hey it's OK to batter your wife cos you can sing?? 'BULLY' that word springs to mind.....Oh and the word 'POWER' is up there too..... Knock your partner about is not too bad cos you did Little Darling................Violence against a person is unacceptable,and if you disagree then l'll batter you!

What are you talking about? Stop playing games and trying to make out I am justifying violence against women. A sub-culture of the streets, a ghetto way of life that yes, not surprisingly included violence against women on a high degree, hence my comment on many Northern Soul 'heroes'. Regrettably it still does spawn such aspects and I am sure there are battered wives in Dublin too. My point is that if every Soul artist whoever hit a woman is banned from your record box, your collection will be significantly smaller. That is not justifying something, it's just stating a fact. Just what is your exact point?

It's a very strange contradiction that someone with one of the most soulful voices ever had such an inner demon.

Strange but not unusual in the truly talented.

Try and balance the vocal on 'Walk Away From Love' and the darker side in his life..

David Ruffin - Walk Away From Love -

If you get the chance watch The Temptations Story DVD'

Alot of his dark side shows through.

That's well worth a watch. Best film I've seen in ages

What are you talking about? Stop playing games and trying to make out I am justifying violence against women. A sub-culture of the streets, a ghetto way of life that yes, not surprisingly included violence against women on a high degree, hence my comment on many Northern Soul 'heroes'. Regrettably it still does spawn such aspects and I am sure there are battered wives in Dublin too. My point is that if every Soul artist whoever hit a woman is banned from your record box, your collection will be significantly smaller. That is not justifying something, it's just stating a fact. Just what is your exact point?

since when was a "ghetto way of life" an excuse ? most men would not hit a woman wether they come from "the streets" or not .

anyones so called "culture" too often seems like an excuse for uncivilized behaviour.

i dont think we should be bothered or feel guilty for liking music made by "tortured artists" , f*** em its only a job theyr not gods or anything and why single tammi terrel out for special consideration, any woman who is a victim of domestic violence should have our support and sympathy surely

Edited October 23, 200915 yr by sarahleen

David never touched Tammi !!, the hammer attack was done by James Brown who also threw her down a flight of stairs inflicting the head injuries that eventually took her life Thought this was common knowledge

His reworking of The Jackson 5's "I want you back" is a masterpiece imho, pure soul at it,s finest

Ian.

David never touched Tammi !!, the hammer attack was done by James Brown who also threw her down a flight of stairs inflicting the head injuries that eventually took her life Thought this was common knowledge

His reworking of The Jackson 5's "I want you back" is a masterpiece imho, pure soul at it,s finest

Ian.

Well, the hammer episode is certainly disputed by Brother Jimmy.

I saw him in a TV interview saying that David NEVER hit Tammi with a hammer.

"He just slapped her upside the head a few times"

So that's alright then.

David never touched Tammi !!, the hammer attack was done by James Brown who also threw her down a flight of stairs inflicting the head injuries that eventually took her life Thought this was common knowledge

His reworking of The Jackson 5's "I want you back" is a masterpiece imho, pure soul at it,s finest

Ian.

Shut up Ian or I'll come round and b b b b bat batter ya

DR, great voice but like so many well known and lesser known artists not the nicest of people.

David never touched Tammi !!, the hammer attack was done by James Brown who also threw her down a flight of stairs inflicting the head injuries that eventually took her life Thought this was common knowledge

His reworking of The Jackson 5's "I want you back" is a masterpiece imho, pure soul at it,s finest

Ian.

QUOTE FROM MARTHA REEVES BOOK

when i was out on the roadwith james brown she(tammi)was out on the road with him too

neither one of us should have been there we were both too young.she was james browns woman

that lie that they put out about david ruffin hitting her in the head with a hammer,causing that brain injury to her head,

trust me that happened way before david ruffins time,i know that for a fact

think i stand corrected whoops sorry mr ruffin, mr brown you c**t

since when was a "ghetto way of life" an excuse ? most men would not hit a woman wether they come from "the streets" or not .

anyones so called "culture" too often seems like an excuse for uncivilized behaviour.

i dont think we should be bothered or feel guilty for liking music made by "tortured artists" , f*** em its only a job theyr not gods or anything and why single tammi terrel out for special consideration, any woman who is a victim of domestic violence should have our support and sympathy surely

Jesus. Please take a deep breath and carefully read back the previous posts. Nobody has made any 'excuse'. If you wish to try and perpetuate the myth that anti-social and quite often inhumane acts and practises are not a common feature of ghetto life then you are on a different planet. There are also many ghettos in the USA and in other countries where a vast percentage of life is far from 'civilised', try a couple of days in Trenchtown, Jamaica and come back to tell me about civilised behaviour. Then again, are you trying to uphold that the horrendous poverty and social neglect that affects generation after generation in these places is anything remotely near 'civilised'? Treat people like animals, they act like animals simple as that and sometimes sadly the damage is wrought in the early years. No end of material wealth can help change people whose lives are emotionally wrecked in their formative years. There are serious casualities in this life, period. On a similar note, I did not use the word 'culture' as an 'excuse' either.

An apparent environmental culture breeds behavioural patterns and yes, whilst we may agree they seem 'uncivilised' to people from a different background, some kids are sadly bred with domestic and social violence as on ongoing feature of their upbringing be it through peer, parental or whatever channel of influence. That I repeat, is not an excuse but in order to change something you have to understand it, then you can start to work on such aspects. No significant behaviour patterns are ever achieved simply because somebody stands on the opposite side of the road wearing a permanent expression of condemnation. I also was certainly was not 'singling out Tammi Terrell', although I suppose as men, as soon as we made a comment that revolved around her physical beauty, we were leaving ourselves open for attack on that one!

i stand by everything i said in my post and i stilll dont see how poverty should necessarily "breed" domestice violence . you talk as if "ghetto" (your word) people are somehow different to everyone else . i was going to say i find that patronising but actually its quite insulting to talk of any people in terms of being "uncivilized" or like "animals".

when i said i think culture is often an excuse for uncivilized behaviour why did you automatically think i meant only poor people ? . people sat in an opera house (culture) in london that has been renovated with with millions of pounds of lottery money is imo not only uncivilized but obscene. there is a charity working in this country trying to stop female curcumcision (culture) not only abroad but in this country too that could have done with that money. culture ? , you can stick it mate .

"behavioural patterns " ? you say that often in your post . it means nothing to me , its just a another social label given to people from a distance an "expression of condemnation " , perhaps . i went to -kes- type school so excuse my lack of education , i often struggle to keep up sometimes , but im not gonna let that stop me . lol

how dare you put my people down by more or less calling them animals and uncivilized . we might not come from a priveledged background but there are decent and civilized people in poor areas. brave people . i suggest you do what they often try and walk up to a gangster round MY town and say to them "your destroying this community with your drugs , prostitution , guns and beatings "( good luck!!) . its poor people who are fighting these things . decent people , civilized people .

as for your tammi terrell comment . im truly lost for words . yes she was beautiful and young but what difference does that make ? what the hell has that got to do with a woman, any woman , being beaten to death ?

Edited October 27, 200915 yr by sarahleen

Ruffin, fundamentally a bad person with a great voice.

A truly wonderful voice who was certainly one sandwich short of a picnic.

I interviewed him in 1988. At Mcdonalds he ordered £90 worth of Cheesburgersf

for 5 of us! Now I know why I put on weight.

Ludie Montgomery(Tammi's sister) is a great friend of ours and she confirmed

the great man's bizarre behaviour.

Yep, that aside.. Listen to You're My Everything as he shares the tortured vocals with Eddie K.

ps a colleague has just reminded me that i " probably have relatives in trenchtown " , do you fancy coming over there with me chorley ?

its sarahs daughter caty. ma mom is pissed with her friends laughing at some of the idiotic comments and after reading the comments leave her alone, no she is not realted to people in trench town but she is not blind to domestic violence or a poor cultureal upbringing but has morals and is a hard worker and has brought herself out of a deprived background and browt me and my brothers up alone we are all in higher education with good manners and wide prospects i think any kind of violence is unacceptable domestic or not but people often choose to beleive that violence is often a result of a poverty which is untrue because people with no money have nothing to loose so it is not hidden, wealthy people are the authories wealthy people can justify their violence in the sense that they think they are higher society the point is violence is violence in any culture and is not any diiffrent in another culture so all cutures are to blame for violence as a society we obviosly see it in secret as acceptable hard reality to face im affraid

Surprised to see people say they knew nothing of all this...

Clearly another tormented soul whose anguished vocal genius probably emanated from his personal inner conflicts.

Strange how the romance of songs and records gets automatically transposed onto the personalities of those who perform them.

For all his faults DAVID RUFFIN gave us some beautiful moments of art, something which many other 'brutes' will not manage.

Fookinhell!!!!!!! that second line should win awards.

and the winner, for most poigniant(hope thats spealt right)sentence ever on Soul-source.....goes to Chorleysoul.

Nice reply...

webby only started this thread as a general chit chat,didnt think it would get this deep

webby only started this thread as a general chit chat,didnt think it would get this deep

whats that ment t mean ???

....WHAT!!!You started the thread,mate.D.V. is a very emotional subject,mate,and l'm sure there's 100's on here who have seen it...Good thread though!!

hey its sarahs daughter yeh its a very serious subject tho some people are not deep or clever enough or sum times affraid to discuss it, first time av bin on this sight lol

i stand by everything i said in my post and i stilll dont see how poverty should necessarily "breed" domestice violence . you talk as if "ghetto" (your word) people are somehow different to everyone else . i was going to say i find that patronising but actually its quite insulting to talk of any people in terms of being "uncivilized" or like "animals".

when i said i think culture is often an excuse for uncivilized behaviour why did you automatically think i meant only poor people ? . people sat in an opera house (culture) in london that has been renovated with with millions of pounds of lottery money is imo not only uncivilized but obscene. there is a charity working in this country trying to stop female curcumcision (culture) not only abroad but in this country too that could have done with that money. culture ? , you can stick it mate .

"behavioural patterns " ? you say that often in your post . it means nothing to me , its just a another social label given to people from a distance an "expression of condemnation " , perhaps . i went to -kes- type school so excuse my lack of education , i often struggle to keep up sometimes , but im not gonna let that stop me . lol

i dont need to "go to trenchtown for a couple of days " to meet jamaicans and see how they live . im from bradford and grew up with jamaicans and pakistanis and people from all over the world good people ,decent people actually , as did my parents . you talk to me as if i no nothing of such things as child abuse and domestic violence . as a child i lived in a one up one down back to back terraced house with no bathroom two sisters and a ********** mutha ! . i suggest YOU try that one on for size and come back and tell me all about it . but of course thats besides the point .

how dare you put my people down by more or less calling them animals and uncivilized . we might not come from a priveledged background but there are decent and civilized people in poor areas. brave people . i suggest you do what they often try and walk up to a gangster round MY town and say to them "your destroying this community with your drugs , prostitution , guns and beatings "( good luck!!) . its poor people who are fighting these things . decent people , civilized people .

as for your tammi terrell comment . im truly lost for words . yes she was beautiful and young but what difference does that make ? what the hell has that got to do with a woman, any woman , being beaten to death ?

'

Okay. Sorry if you are upset emotionally but let me clarify some points for you.

I was born in a council estate with a violent Mother, (what would be classed as a 'sink' estate now) and have lived all my life in social housing. I come from a multi-cultural background, African Great Grandmother mixed with Jewish etc, etc so I am not patronising anybody by means of race, far from it. I grew up in a multi-racial area and I still live in one now. I served 7 years of my life in institutions when I was younger and only at 28 did I sign up for a 'special Unit' in Prison. In there I had to address my own life through six months of congenital Behavioural therapy and that's where I learnt the real facts of life and I am grateful everyday for it. Sorry, but poverty does breed violence and unsociable behaviour. Poverty ensures lack of education for many people, that ignorance does manifest in varying forms of disenfranchisement and degrees of agression. Here in London, Mothers fear their sons will be knived or Knife somebody elses son every day of the year and there are whole communities whose lives revolve around such fears.

Sorry again, but when I was young, I believe there was a certain part of me that was 'animalistic' (Me and many of the Young Inmates I grew up with) and there are many young people now carrying the same scars. So if you thought I was some University educated middle class twat sitting here, being insulting to working class people of any race, you are mistaken. The statistics relating to imprisonment in this country quite clearly show that poverty and low economic environments are clearly a factor reating to crime and the the percentage of Males locked up from a pre-dominantly 'poor' background is enormous compared to any other social grouping.

Further, the amount of Black Prisoners in the UK far outweighs what Black people represent in terms of population ratio. There are a number of factors that can be debated as being responsible for this but it is an unescapable fact that many young Black Males in our inner cities, are turning to a life of Gang association, on an almost American style scale. The type of violence and 'Gangster' culture that manifests as a result of this is costing London very dear in young lives as we speak, so to try and purport that there is no link between poverty and crime is quite frankly bollocks. Young Blacks are murdering each other regularly on the streets of London over an insult or a remark to a girlfriend. If young guys will kill for such low stakes, of course you will see a somewhat 'slack' attitude sometimes to aspects such as domestic or relationship violence. That's the type of 'Ghetto Culture' I am talking about and it is something that exists. It's something real that we have to deal with somehow. Ignoring it or pretending it does not exist does nobody any good.

As for the 'my people' bit. We come from the same people sister. I've spent years working with young people on Government funded Arts schemes. I've been into Prisons to visit Lads who've gone back into crime even after doing well in our schemes. I've made Documentary films charting the lives of Young people in our area and I've had an ITV Documentary made about me and my work in such areas. So sorry if you misunderstood me, but I am exactly one of those people who has been 'working' with our 'people' to try and make some type of difference. I admit, I have become somewhat exhausted and disillusioned, but one thing I will assurre you is that 'gangsters' dont intimidate me. Far from it.

I've gone into the box in front of Judges and and pleaded for young Guys not to be sent to Jail, knowing full well what they will come out like. My own Nephew is currently serving an 8 year Jail sentence at the age of 21 and was one of the lads featured on the Portaland Football Team Squad programme recently. IAN WRIGHT even came round to visit my Brother in law who was also interviewed on the programme. I almost despair at what is happening in our inner cities in this country and I do as much as I can, in my little way to combat it.

Im not ashamed of the education I gave myself. It saved my life. I was 'uncivilised' before I served time in that unit. For certain. Sadly so are many other people, but how we reach them and change lives is the battle. But to try and deny that we do not have a massive problem, here in the UK right now, is foolhardy.

And please, of course every woman is as important as Tammi Terrell. I have 4 daughters myself. One of whom rang me today, furious at some BNP guys she'd just confronted. I am extremely proud of her and all of them, as I am sure you are of yours. Please dont manipulate some jokey banter into more than what it was.

All the best. Peace.

Edited October 26, 200915 yr by chorleysoul

Listen to You're My Everything as he shares the tortured vocals with Eddie K.

Ha!

I was only saying to my daughter the other day, I wonder if another take was done, at Motown, where they swapped the parts over!

Magnificent record.

Sean

whats that ment t mean ???

started a thread about david ruffin genius or brute, the thread has gone to chatting deeply about dv, sub cultures ,ghettos.

just not what i thought this thread would amount to

'

Okay. Sorry if you are upset emotionally but let me clarify some points for you.

I was born in a council estate with a violent Mother, (what would be classed as a 'sink' estate now) and have lived all my life in social housing. I come from a multi-cultural background, African Great Grandmother mixed with Jewish etc, etc so I am not patronising anybody by means of race, far from it. I grew up in a multi-racial area and I still live in one now. I served 7 years of my life in institutions when I was younger and only at 28 did I sign up for a 'special Unit' in Prison. In there I had to address my own life through six months of congenital Behavioural therapy and that's where I learnt the real facts of life and I am grateful everyday for it. Sorry, but poverty does breed violence and unsociable behaviour. Poverty ensures lack of education for many people, that ignorance does manifest in varying forms of disenfranchisement and degrees of agression. Here in London, Mothers fear their sons will be knived or Knife somebody elses son every day of the year and there are whole communities whose lives revolve around such fears.

Sorry again, but when I was young, I believe there was a certain part of me that was 'animalistic' (Me and many of the Young Inmates I grew up with) and there are many young people now carrying the same scars. So if you thought I was some University educated middle class twat sitting here, being insulting to working class people of any race, you are mistaken. The statistics relating to imprisonment in this country quite clearly show that poverty and low economic environments are clearly a factor reating to crime and the the percentage of Males locked up from a pre-dominantly 'poor' background is enormous compared to any other social grouping.

Further, the amount of Black Prisoners in the UK far outweighs what Black people represent in terms of population ratio. There are a number of factors that can be debated as being responsible for this but it is an unescapable fact that many young Black Males in our inner cities, are turning to a life of Gang association, on an almost American style scale. The type of violence and 'Gangster' culture that manifests as a result of this is costing London very dear in young lives as we speak, so to try and purport that there is no link between poverty and crime is quite frankly bollocks. Young Blacks are murdering each other regularly on the streets of London over an insult or a remark to a girlfriend. If young guys will kill for such low stakes, of course you will see a somewhat 'slack' attitude sometimes to aspects such as domestic or relationship violence. That's the type of 'Ghetto Culture' I am talking about and it is something that exists. It's something real that we have to deal with somehow. Ignoring it or pretending it does not exist does nobody any good.

As for the 'my people' bit. We come from the same people sister. I've spent years working with young people on Government funded Arts schemes. I've been into Prisons to visit Lads who've gone back into crime even after doing well in our schemes. I've made Documentary films charting the lives of Young people in our area and I've had an ITV Documentary made about me and my work in such areas. So sorry if you misunderstood me, but I am exactly one of those people who has been 'working' with our 'people' to try and make some type of difference. I admit, I have become somewhat exhausted and disillusioned, but one thing I will assurre you is that 'gangsters' dont intimidate me. Far from it.

I've gone into the box in front of Judges and and pleaded for young Guys not to be sent to Jail, knowing full well what they will come out like. My own Nephew is currently serving an 8 year Jail sentence at the age of 21 and was one of the lads featured on the Portaland Football Team Squad programme recently. IAN WRIGHT even came round to visit my Brother in law who was also interviewed on the programme. I almost despair at what is happening in our inner cities in this country and I do as much as I can, in my little way to combat it.

Im not ashamed of the education I gave myself. It saved my life. I was 'uncivilised' before I served time in that unit. For certain. Sadly so are many other people, but how we reach them and change lives is the battle. But to try and deny that we do not have a massive problem, here in the UK right now, is foolhardy.

And please, of course every woman is as important as Tammi Terrell. I have 4 daughters myself. One of whom rang me today, furious at some BNP guys she'd just confronted. I am extremely proud of her and all of them, as I am sure you are of yours. Please dont manipulate some jokey banter into more than what it was.

All the best. Peace.

its sarahs daughter again my mom said she is also sorry and misunderstood you she is watching t.v at mo, i think that this whole dissgussion was not based around cultures, poverty or upbringings yes the effects of an upbringing can cause uncivilised behaviour but like i said before violence is violence what ever the culture and that is the disscussion my mom never said you was part of higher society but you implied she was by saying try live in trench town for a week like she had no knowlege of such matters, as for prisons my dad has served many big sentences that my mom stood by him through and as for domestic violence well that is her own business i'am currently engaged and my fiance is serving a four year i.p.p sentence but is NOT a animal nor uncivilised yet i'am at uni, on the subject of violence we all disagree yet if a man was to hit your wife it would be wrong and if the husband was to attack the man that had hit her that would be acceptable wrong there will always be violence weather it is wrong or write poor or rich this is no competion to whom has had a better upbringing or worst, world paece is impossible poverty has nothing to do with it me and my boyfriend have had similar upbringings the differnce my mom browt me up with morals and strength to make my own self worth, my boyfriend with out maybe those are the reasons i'am at uni he is in prison but he is still my equal, it is was what strenghts and morals you have been browt up with that determines who you are and how you behave not how much money was in your parents pockets.

its sarahs daughter again my mom said she is also sorry and misunderstood you she is watching t.v at mo, i think that this whole dissgussion was not based around cultures, poverty or upbringings yes the effects of an upbringing can cause uncivilised behaviour but like i said before violence is violence what ever the culture and that is the disscussion my mom never said you was part of higher society but you implied she was by saying try live in trench town for a week like she had no knowlege of such matters, as for prisons my dad has served many big sentences that my mom stood by him through and as for domestic violence well that is her own business i'am currently engaged and my fiance is serving a four year i.p.p sentence but is NOT a animal nor uncivilised yet i'am at uni, on the subject of violence we all disagree yet if a man was to hit your wife it would be wrong and if the husband was to attack the man that had hit her that would be acceptable wrong there will always be violence weather it is wrong or write poor or rich this is no competion to whom has had a better upbringing or worst, world paece is impossible poverty has nothing to do with it me and my boyfriend have had similar upbringings the differnce my mom browt me up with morals and strength to make my own self worth, my boyfriend with out maybe those are the reasons i'am at uni he is in prison but he is still my equal, it is was what strenghts and morals you have been browt up with that determines who you are and how you behave not how much money was in your parents pockets.

exactly what i said i didnt start this thread to be talking about poverty ,upbringings and culture. gotta go now cos the missus said if i dont get off here shes gonna beat the crap out of me, lol only joking

exactly what i said i didnt start this thread to be talking about poverty ,upbringings and culture. gotta go now cos the missus said if i dont get off here shes gonna beat the crap out of me, lol only joking

lol

Don't wanna be a kill-joy but DV does work both ways...Especially when you're asleep!!

mate i allways sleep with one eye open ha ha

To add a twist to this...is a man who beats women on a par with a paedophile?

I am with Webby...never have hit a woman and truly believe real men don't beat women. Real men don't assault or manipulate children either (neither do women). Is there a difference?

Some men beat women for sexual gratification not because of drugs, drink etc etc.

So is David Ruffin on a par with say ...oh, Micahel Jackson in the realm of abusive behavior by a genius, because in my mind they are all in the same cess pool.

Edited October 26, 200915 yr by Mark Holmes

To add a twist to this...is a man who beats women on a par with a paedophile?

I am with Webby...never have hit a woman and truly believe real men don't beat women. Real men don't assault or manipulate children either (neither do women). Is there a difference?

Some men beat women for sexual gratification not because of drugs, drink etc etc.

So is David Ruffin on a par with say ...oh, Micahel Jackson in the realm of abusive behavior by a genius, because in my mind they are all in the same cess pool.

if any one abuses some one in a sexual nature then yes i supose they would come in the same catergory as a nonse, but people make mistakes in the sense a man can hit a woman once but regret it and never lay a finger on her again.