This kind of listing makes me want to rip my hair out........ damned pirates!

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380173283701&fromMakeTrack=true

That actually looks real to me - looks like a styrene original

That actually looks real to me - looks like a styrene original

Think you're right Pete looks fine to me too

That actually looks real to me - looks like a styrene original

It is the Styrene prmo in the runout is 2TSP9J192-1C at ten o'clock then T11 at four o'clock

Any info about bootleg please.

My copy is plain white [no lines]. NOT a DJ copy. ZTSP 95192-1B scratched in. No mention of "Embee" at all.

ROD

That actually looks real to me - looks like a styrene original

That's the problem. It looks real. It's looks more authentic than the original. The OG Bobbie Smith white label with black writing has no lines on it and is styrene. Boot has lines and is vinyl. Check the pics in Manship.

Any info about bootleg please.

My copy is plain white [no lines]. NOT a DJ copy. ZTSP 95192-1B scratched in. No mention of "Embee" at all.

ROD

Yours sounds OG to me

I contacted the seller and they thanked me for the info. Are they going to change the false listing of an OG copy? Probably not. Is someone going to pay way too much for a boot? Probably.

Well at least its a vinyl copy.

The bootleg is white label with no lines and no "dj copy - not for sale" text. Every copy that doesn't look like this is an original, (b/w demo, r/w demo, black issue).

Samson, I think you're wrong, IMO the one on Ebay is an original. Tho it doesn't look half as nice as a black issue...

they both sell for about the same price on popsike, strange.

That's the problem. It looks real. It's looks more authentic than the original. The OG Bobbie Smith white label with black writing has no lines on it and is styrene. Boot has lines and is vinyl. Check the pics in Manship.

It's not a bootleg and I don't need to check anything with manship.

The bootleg is plain white and made from vinyl.

There are a few originals, including the plain white one (this is the rarest), the lined white one, and a lined one with red print. And of course the black stock copy.

Edited November 3, 200915 yr by Pete S

I have to concur - the one on Ebay is definitely the real deal. The only boots of these from the mid-80s were NEVER lined.

Manship's 5th guide states the bootleg is vinyl but shows the image of the label with lines as the bootleg example. His bootleg guide simply says all originals are styrene (issues and demos) whilst the bootlegs are vinyl - doesn't mention labels at all.

So that's probably where the confusion comes from.

I've just sold a styrene with no lines and I was pretty sure it was an original.

Manship's 5th guide states the bootleg is vinyl but shows the image of the label with lines as the bootleg example. His bootleg guide simply says all originals are styrene (issues and demos) whilst the bootlegs are vinyl - doesn't mention labels at all.

So that's probably where the confusion comes from.

I've just sold a styrene with no lines and I was pretty sure it was an original.

Yes the picture in the guide is incorrect.

And of course another point, this record didn't go big until the mid 80's, when were the last styrene bootlegs made? 1979 I think.

Manship's 5th guide states the bootleg is vinyl but shows the image of the label with lines as the bootleg example. His bootleg guide simply says all originals are styrene (issues and demos) whilst the bootlegs are vinyl - doesn't mention labels at all.

So that's probably where the confusion comes from.

I've just sold a styrene with no lines and I was pretty sure it was an original.

These are the 6 legal releases/demos of Bobbie Smith that I know of. All are pressed on styrene:

1. Demo, white label with black lettering, lined

2. Demo, white label with red lettering, lined

3. Issue, white label with black lettering, no lines

4. Issue, black label with silver lettering, lined

5. Issue, black label with silver lettering, 'fat, squareish' typeface on title, lined (see pic below from Popsike).

6. Issue, black label with silver lettering, no lines

As far as known, the 'no lines' (No. 3) only exists as a white issue, without the 'Promotional copy/Not for sale' text.

Some demos are date stamped 'Oct 1964'

BOOTLEG

As for No. 3, but pressed on vinyl

Edited November 3, 200915 yr by Gene-R

And of course another point, this record didn't go big until the mid 80's

It was certainly big in the early 70's

It was certainly big in the early 70's

Where?

It wasn't known in the early 70's.

Edited November 3, 200915 yr by Pete S

Thanks lads. Mine is #3 on styrene.

ROD

oh bollocks! mines just an mp3

oh bollocks! mines just an mp3

But is it a vinyl MP3, or a styrene MP3?

But is it a vinyl MP3, or a styrene MP3?

i dunno, its so bloody small i can't even see the sodding thing! ha ha ha

Where?

It wasn't known in the early 70's.

I agree Pete. It was a collector's cheapie by the time of late Wigan, not really played out until a few years after this. One of the first Stafford records to spread nationwide, helped no doubt by the fact that it's a fairly common 45. The red demo looks good, but to me nothing matches the mystique of the black American Arts issues. Has anyone aver tracked Bobbie Smith down and is there any substance to the rumour that she was a white artist?

Has anyone aver tracked Bobbie Smith down and is there any substance to the rumour that she was a white artist?

This will answer part of your question Gareth. Here's Bobbie Smith & The Dream Girls (but I don't know who's who).

Edited November 3, 200915 yr by Gene-R

It's not a bootleg and I don't need to check anything with manship.

The bootleg is plain white and made from vinyl.

There are a few originals, including the plain white one (this is the rarest), the lined white one, and a lined one with red print. And of course the black stock copy.

Aha Mr Smiff!

Totally off topic - but I've missed your posts! You tell em son.

Many thanks Gene, but I'm not sure if this answers the question as there seems to be some conjecture as to whether Bobbie Smith on Big Top is the same artist as the girl on American Arts.

And while I'm at it, here's a great site full of pics and discographies, where the Dream Girls pic came from.

https://www.blogg.org/blog-65325.html

This will answer part of your question Gareth. Here's Bobbie Smith & The Dream Girls (but I don't know who's who).

I sincerely hope she ain't the one on the right or my dreams are shattered!

Many thanks Gene, but I'm not sure if this answers the question as there seems to be some conjecture as to whether Bobbie Smith on Big Top is the same artist as the girl on American Arts.

Hi Gareth,

The Bobbie Smith discography on the site I've just posted the link of seems to pigeon-hole her as the same person who was with the Dream Girls.

https://www.blogg.org/blog-65325-themes-dream_girls__bobbie_smith___the_-259971.html

Hi Gareth,

The Bobbie Smith discography on the site I've just posted the link of seems to pigeon-hole her as the same person who was with the Dream Girls.

https://www.blogg.org/blog-65325-themes-dream_girls__bobbie_smith___the_-259971.html

Very interesting Gene. I'd say the Twirl tie-in is conclusive and the Michigan location helps as well. It would appear to be the same woman.

Cheers.

That actually looks real to me - looks like a styrene original

You're right Pete, it's real enough...

Easy to get confused though...

Yes the picture in the guide is incorrect.

And of course another point, this record didn't go big until the mid 80's, when were the last styrene bootlegs made? 1979 I think.

Ahhh, Thanks Pete. The source of my confusion.

So to clarify: All styrene copies are original?

Also, how often is Manship incorrect?

Ahhh, Thanks Pete. The source of my confusion.

So to clarify: All styrene copies are original?

Also, how often is Manship incorrect?

Yes all styrene is original and in answer to question two...not every often...but he didn't believe there was a coloured label bootleg of Edward Hamilton just because he'd never seen it...none of us know everything

Also, how often is Manship incorrect?

He is correct most of the time, but his guide does contain mistakes.

If you try and tell him he will not take any notice.

The bootleg is white label with no lines and no "dj copy - not for sale" text. Every copy that doesn't look like this is an original, (b/w demo, r/w demo, black issue).

This info seems to conflict with what i just learned. It sounds like the OG styrene copies without lines don't have the "dj copy - not for sale" printed on them.

Sounds like any lined white label that doesn't have "dj copy - not for sale" printed is a bootleg. That would also match the photo in Manship.

Does this sound right.....or is it more complicated than that?

Yes all styrene is original and in answer to question two...not every often...but he didn't believe there was a coloured label bootleg of Edward Hamilton just because he'd never seen it...none of us know everything

Thanks Pete.

Where?

It wasn't known in the early 70's.

hmmm my memory must be worse than I thought wouldn't swear by it but thought it got played out at the Mecca

I certainly played it at the local youth club and it was definitely big in my house

my Bobbie Smith boot on vinyl.... yes a do own a couple.

To help clear up the confustion of the "bootleg" record featuring matrix ZTSP-95192, here it is. Following is the artist and track information on the actual single that Columbia Custom (New York) had assigned to matrix numbers ZTSP-95191 and "B" side ZTSP-95192.... It is in an "extremely rare" case that Columbia Custom ever used a matrix number for 2 different records.

ZTSP95191Smith, BobbieMiss Stronghearted3:00American ArtsAA-02A7/00/64Subsidiary of WORLD ARTISTS label. Originating out of Pittsburgh, PA.ZTSP95192Smith, BobbieWalk On Into My Heart2:02American ArtsAA-02B7/00/64Subsidiary of WORLD ARTISTS label. Originating out of Pittsburgh, PA.

Reg Bartlette