hi in my hand im holding a copy of rose batiste on revilot ,which is a bit unusual as its a sort of silver grey buff colour .the label really clear however the number in the run out groove looks scratched in as opposed to stamped in is this a boot ? I alwas thought the demos where white and the issues a pinky colour and stamped corect me if im wrong !

It is a bootleg...the paper quality and poor print usually gives it away on sight.

Original grey copies (and WDs) are machine stamped.

There is no pink label copy to my knowledge.

It is a bootleg...the paper quality and poor print usually gives it away on sight.

Original grey copies (and WDs) are machine stamped.

There is no pink label copy to my knowledge.

Plus the originals are stryrene and the boot is vinyl

My Goldmine issue has a scratched in matrix, is it legit?

If I turn it 12 degrees from the left it reads ONO-NOTAGIN

Value?

hi pete and tony this copy is styrene and the label printing is really precise and seems to be a bit heavier than your usual boot it was given to my lovely lady on her 21st birthday by gaz kellett 30 years ago, and it appears to read plonker in the groove 380 degrees west ! by the way tony did you go down the 100 club last night ? if so what was the anniversary record ? ,long time no see mate best wishes mark

hi pete and tony this copy is styrene and the label printing is really precise and seems to be a bit heavier than your usual boot it was given to my lovely lady on her 21st birthday by gaz kellett 30 years ago, and it appears to read plonker in the groove 380 degrees west ! by the way tony did you go down the 100 club last night ? if so what was the anniversary record ? ,long time no see mate best wishes mark

Styrene+Gaz=Original 100%

Yes was at 100 club Mark, record was Paramount 4 & Gene&Gary version of Baby Without You, is on refosoul on here, hope you're well mate.

On 19/09/2010 at 10:43, Pete S said:

 

 

Plus the originals are stryrene and the boot is vinyl

Bit of interest here on Tim Brown's current auction for a Demo

Now, around 20 years ago when we had Goldmine Soul Supply, we hit a deal with Don Davis for release of all his productions on Solid Hitbound, Revilot, Ric-Tic, Thelma, etc, etc. Virtually all of this was done via the mastertapes (although the process was never 100% completed in terms of extracting material) and many situations cropped up including this. As I remember it, this take of ‘Hit & Run’ is actually the Debonaires, although the flipside ‘I Miss My Baby’ is Rose. We put out Battiste’s actual take of it on C.D. 

On 18/09/2010 at 19:10, Anoraks Corner said:

It is a bootleg...the paper quality and poor print usually gives it away on sight.

 

Original grey copies (and WDs) are machine stamped.

There is no pink label copy to my knowledge.

 

I concur.  In all my years of searching through, literally, over a million 45s, I've never seen nor heard of "Hit and Run" being on a pink label pressing. 

I realise the opening post was made several years ago, but I'm intrigued to learn definitively if the copy the original poster was asking about was determined to be the Debonaires ?? If so then surely that copy must be seriously rare.. but then begs the question why ?!?

I'm perplexed, bemused, and just plain downright nosey !!

18 minutes ago, Ficklefingers said:

I realise the opening post was made several years ago, but I'm intrigued to learn definitively if the copy the original poster was asking about was determined to be the Debonaires ?? If so then surely that copy must be seriously rare.. but then begs the question why ?!?

I'm perplexed, bemused, and just plain downright nosey !!

https://www.raresoulvinyl.co.uk/auctions/

Sorry.. I missed the bit in your earlier post that states it's Tim's current auction.. But it still goes no further as to matrix details etc.. the 'As I remember..' quote doesn't exactly prove anything categorically ?? And still doesn't answer the question about the 45 in the original post.. the Grey issue.. scratched matrix.. Are the run out details on this auction WDJ copy scratched or stamped I suppose is a good starting point.. Is the CD take mentioned different to the copies we all associate as being by Rose ??

I'll be on the 'phone in the morning.. It's beginning to bug me now !! lol

1 hour ago, Ficklefingers said:

Sorry.. I missed the bit in your earlier post that states it's Tim's current auction.. But it still goes no further as to matrix details etc.. the 'As I remember..' quote doesn't exactly prove anything categorically ?? And still doesn't answer the question about the 45 in the original post.. the Grey issue.. scratched matrix.. Are the run out details on this auction WDJ copy scratched or stamped I suppose is a good starting point.. Is the CD take mentioned different to the copies we all associate as being by Rose ??

I'll be on the 'phone in the morning.. It's beginning to bug me now !! lol

Original issues are styrene and like promo are Stamped

Edited June 16, 20204 yr by Blackpoolsoul

Yes.. I know all that - you are missing my point..

Original issues are grey, stamped, and STYRENE

The topic originator has stated his copy has a SCRATCHED matrix - and also on STYRENE.. The boots are VINYL !!!

Is that copy ACTUALLY the Rose Batiste take mentioned on the CD - and NOT the Debonaires version that lists Rose as the artist ??

So.. as I said - I'll be on the 'phone in the morning lol

Edited June 16, 20204 yr by Ficklefingers
additional question

6 hours ago, Ficklefingers said:

Yes.. I know all that - you are missing my point..

Original issues are grey, stamped, and STYRENE

The topic originator has stated his copy has a SCRATCHED matrix - and also on STYRENE.. The boots are VINYL !!!

Is that copy ACTUALLY the Rose Batiste take mentioned on the CD - and NOT the Debonaires version that lists Rose as the artist ??

So.. as I said - I'll be on the 'phone in the morning lol

So sorry, lockdown has fried my brain, please let us know

No need for apology lol.. my brains are completely mashed too and even took me a while to figure out what I meant 🙃

2 hours ago, Ficklefingers said:

No need for apology lol.. my brains are completely mashed too and even took me a while to figure out what I meant 🙃

I just got another message saying it was actually Gwen Owens ?

6 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I just got another message saying it was actually Gwen Owens ?

What !!!! OMG - prey tell the details.. I'm even more intrigued now !!

I did telephone Tim this morning but got no response.. I know when I spoke to him a couple of weeks back he said he was only physically working in the warehouse one day a week at present - but will keep trying until I get through

I already know the questions I'm gonna ask, but with any new info you may now have I may need to add a few more to the list..

There's a 'story' here somewhere, and I'm determined to get to the bottom of things and establish the facts..

Watch this space !! 🤓

PS: Does anyone know who 'Mark'.. the original poster is ?? Could do with a conversation with him too..

Edited June 17, 20204 yr by Ficklefingers

13 minutes ago, Ficklefingers said:

What !!!! OMG - prey tell the details.. I'm even more intrigued now !!

I did telephone Tim this morning but got no response.. I know when I spoke to him a couple of weeks back he said he was only physically working in the warehouse one day a week at present - but will keep trying until I get through

I already know the questions I'm gonna ask, but with any new info you may now have I may need to add a few more to the list..

There's a 'story' here somewhere, and I'm determined to get to the bottom of things and establish the facts..

Watch this space !! 🤓

PS: Does anyone know who 'Mark'.. the original poster is ?? Could do with a conversation with him too..

I can't quote him yet until he has come back to me as I have queried it with him

Will Kev Roberts be able to help ?, as he might have been involved with Tim and the masters and the Grapevine thing

8 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I just got another message saying it was actually Gwen Owens ?

I seem to remember when Don Davis' "Groovesville" and other tapes were procured, some of them were unlabled as to the artist name, and there were "guesses" made when they came available to the public on "The Groovesville Masters or Tapes", released CD.  What we do know is that many of the Don Davis-related Groovesville, Solid Hitbound, Golden World/Ric Tic, and Thelma cuts that were or were not released on record, had more than one, and often 2 or 3 versions made by different artists.  Just like Motown, these off-Motown, Don Davis-related labels often had different artists record a given song, originally (sometimes one was originally a demo, whose vocal could later be given a full, finished mix, or tracks made with an earlier company still in Davis' hands, could be used with a different artist produced by Davis, while working with a later company).  So, some of the artists on some of the artist-unlabled tapes of previously unreleased versions, are still not officially confirmed, (even though, being labeled with the non-confirmed "guesses" has semi-legitimized them from their familiarity.

Edited June 17, 20204 yr by Robbk

If this is the same version you're talking about, I'm not sure that is Gwen Owens. It is hard to tell because the 

track seems to be slowed down. - 

 

2 hours ago, Ficklefingers said:

What !!!! OMG - prey tell the details.. I'm even more intrigued now !!

I did telephone Tim this morning but got no response.. I know when I spoke to him a couple of weeks back he said he was only physically working in the warehouse one day a week at present - but will keep trying until I get through

I already know the questions I'm gonna ask, but with any new info you may now have I may need to add a few more to the list..

There's a 'story' here somewhere, and I'm determined to get to the bottom of things and establish the facts..

Watch this space !! 🤓

PS: Does anyone know who 'Mark'.. the original poster is ?? Could do with a conversation with him too..

On the sleeve notes for "The Groovesville Collection" CD Goldmine GSCD 56  it states-

"Another classic is "Hit and Run" by Rose Batiste, put out as Revilot 204, however our research shows Batiste's version as presented here, was never actually released; Instead the wrongly credited version by the Debonaires was coupled with Rose Batiste's "I Miss My Baby" on Revilot 204"

I thought this means that all copies of Revilot 204 have the version of Hit and Run recorded by the Debonaires on it due to a mistake made at the time the track was labeled or mastered. Rose Batiste's take is only on the CD.

The Gwen Owens version is on GSCD 130 and the Pat Lewis version on GSCD 87.

I have seen a listing on the US magazine Record World for some best selling singles on various indie labels from 67 that has "I Miss My Baby" listed as a good regular selling single. I can't find it now. Billboard 24/6/1967 lists Revilot 204 on a list of "Cream of the Blues singles" so the record was rated at the time and could have a couple of pressings but all on the grey label.

Rick

 

 

Thanks for that Rick, and it is entirely possible a couple of pressing runs could have happened, and seems logical.

The thing that's bugging me is the actual disc mentioned by this topic's originator - and the fact it appears genuine, but with matrix differences to the known original styrene  copies that have a stamped matrix - and I now NEED to know if his copy is simply a different run, possibly from a different plant (and hence the matrix anomaly) but playing the usual Debonaires cut.. OR.. could it possibly be a real anomaly - with Rose Batiste performing the vocals ??

Now THAT would be a story !!

Anyway.. any and all input greatly received and very much appreciated - but until my tiny mind is satisfied, I ain't gonna be happy until I get to the bottom of it all 🙃

53 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

 

I have seen a listing on the US magazine Record World for some best selling singles on various indie labels from 67 that has "I Miss My Baby" listed as a good regular selling single. I can't find it now. Billboard 24/6/1967 lists Revilot 204 on a list of "Cream of the Blues singles" so the record was rated at the time and could have a couple of pressings but all on the grey label.

Rick

 

 

Found this in Record World's November5, 1966 issue - 

 

It also received a 4 star rating in the same issue - 

 

This is my old acetate I got from the engineer in Detroit, he said its Rose Batiste, when she was over the UK I played it her as she stood by me in Dave Clegs RIP house, she said "that aint me singing" I now believe it to be Gwen Owens 

18 minutes ago, Gilly said:

This is my old acetate I got from the engineer in Detroit, he said its Rose Batiste, when she was over the UK I played it her as she stood by me in Dave Clegs RIP house, she said "that aint me singing" I now believe it to be Gwen Owens 

This woman has a higher pitch than Rose Batiste in her normal voice.  So. I'm inclined to believe it is more likely to be Gwen Owens singing this, than Rose.  But, it could be any of several women who sang for Davis by the early Solid Hitbound period.  I have seen "guesses" of Gwen Owens" on uncredited Groovesville acetates, but I can't remember any true confirmation that Owens ever recorded for them.  Has anyone here seen or heard any authoritative conformation that she had before the release of Revilot 204?

1 hour ago, Gilly said:

This is my old acetate I got from the engineer in Detroit, he said its Rose Batiste, when she was over the UK I played it her as she stood by me in Dave Clegs RIP house, she said "that aint me singing" I now believe it to be Gwen Owens 

I haven't heard Pat Lewis's version, can I assume it's nothing like this ?

I know Gwen recorded other songs at Golden World but none of them released, (I have another song by her unreleased, written by Don Davis) and couldn't have been written and recorded after late 66 as Berry took ownership of that studio, again from the same engineer who worked at GW before moving on to United Sound Systems. Mind you Don put his name on anything and everything if he could 

What about other versions of this song, Martha Reeves ? yes/no 

6 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I haven't heard Pat Lewis's version, can I assume it's nothing like this ?

if I have heard that version, its been along time since 

3 minutes ago, Gilly said:

What about other versions of this song, Martha Reeves ? yes/no 

Hi Gilly

It's on the CD "Thelma's Detroit Collective" Goldmine GSCD 69 as Hit and Run (Demo version) but the sleeve notes give no further info. It sounds like a very basic rhythm track with sparse vocal backing . 

Back in 1985 we tried to by some masters from Don Davis on visiting his studio, it was before CDs got going and his prices were like telephone numbers, so it was a no, no. Tim Brown did a deal with Dons Brother Willie Davis his prices were more favourable + CDs were all the rage so he had a better chance of making something from it 

4 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

Hi Gilly

It's on the CD "Thelma's Detroit Collective" Goldmine GSCD 69 as Hit and Run (Demo version) but the sleeve notes give no further info. It sounds like a very basic rhythm track with sparse vocal backing . 

there is also a backing track only knocking about some where, 2 infact I think 

 

Just now, Gilly said:

there is also a backing track only knocking about some where, 2 infact I think 

 

I don't have the CDs im afraid 

The Pat Lewis and Martha Reeves (?) versions of "Hit And Run" are both on you tube.

29 minutes ago, The Yank said:

The Pat Lewis and Martha Reeves (?) versions of "Hit And Run" are both on you tube.

I never did understand why Martha would have recorded a solo for Don Davis, as late as 1965 or 1966, well after becoming a mega-star with Motown.  She did record, along with her group members, some backgrounds for Joe Hunter, for use on J.J. Barnes releases in late 1963 and early 1964 (after "Heatwave", but before she had gathered in a lot of money, and while Motown was still parceling it out very slowly to her.   I found it very hard to believe.  And I wasn't sure, after listening over and over to it, that that was really Martha.

When the Don Davis estate was being sold off around Detroit a couple of years ago, the record shop I used to work at got the tape for the Gwen Owens version of "Hit & Run" among other things. I don't know what happened to this tape, but I did get to hear it and I believe one of the takes is the same as Gilly's acetate. 

7 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

When the Don Davis estate was being sold off around Detroit a couple of years ago, the record shop I used to work at got the tape for the Gwen Owens version of "Hit & Run" among other things. I don't know what happened to this tape, but I did get to hear it and I believe one of the takes is the same as Gilly's acetate. 

Yes, thankyou, I know where that tape is, and that's how I now know its Gwen Owens, I also know the other two songs, as one of them is something I got in 1994 from the engineer. I will contact the owner and see if he wants to join in on this conversation. Thank Nick

A very kind person has sent me privately 10 different versions of this song, 3 vocals and 7 backings 

I've got the above pictured tape. I bought this and many others together with Brad Hales at Peoples Records in Detroit.

I also have a couple of takes of the instrumental, both finished and unfinished on Golden World tapes

15 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

When the Don Davis estate was being sold off around Detroit a couple of years ago, the record shop I used to work at got the tape for the Gwen Owens version of "Hit & Run" among other things. I don't know what happened to this tape, but I did get to hear it and I believe one of the takes is the same as Gilly's acetate. 

Does the Telma on the above package sound like Thelma (aka Telma ) Hopkins who was with the Debonaires?

On 18/06/2020 at 16:25, The Yank said:

Does the Telma on the above package sound like Thelma (aka Telma ) Hopkins who was with the Debonaires?

 

 

Edited August 29, 20204 yr by Simon T

On 17/06/2020 at 18:27, Robbk said:

I never did understand why Martha would have recorded a solo for Don Davis, as late as 1965 or 1966, well after becoming a mega-star with Motown.  She did record, along with her group members, some backgrounds for Joe Hunter, for use on J.J. Barnes releases in late 1963 and early 1964 (after "Heatwave", but before she had gathered in a lot of money, and while Motown was still parceling it out very slowly to her.   I found it very hard to believe.  And I wasn't sure, after listening over and over to it, that that was really Martha.

  I doubt that's Martha- in a few places there are some resemblances but that's about it.

  I don't think Martha was working with Groovesville either. But one other Motown artist

did- David Ruffin made "Still In My Heart" with Don Davis in 1966.

Edited June 19, 20204 yr by The Yank

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

  I doubt that's Martha- in a few places there are some resemblances but that's about it.

  I don't think Martha was working with Groovesville either. But one other Motown artist

did- David Ruffin made "Still In My Heart" with Don Davis in 1966.

Yes, but wasn't that during the time in which he was between contracts and holding out for a better deal, and he got together with The Cavaliers, and booked some dates of gigs to get leverage, trying to get a better deal with Motown (then, he DID re-sign with Motown, after only some weeks in between)?  I think that the recording listed as Martha Reeves might have been Martha Starr, or one of those other singers who sounded like her.

11 hours ago, The Yank said:

  I doubt that's Martha- in a few places there are some resemblances but that's about it.

  I don't think Martha was working with Groovesville either. But one other Motown artist

did- David Ruffin made "Still In My Heart" with Don Davis in 1966.

I doubt Martha did this song, but I can tell the story behind the David Ruffin 'Still in my Heart' as told to me by Don Davis in 1985. Steve Mancha's release is late 65, or early 66. Don told me that David had been bugging him to do a take on Still in my heart, for a long time. Don gets a phone call at some unearthly time in the night/morning, the conversation went something like this, "Don its David" Don replies, "David, do you know what time it is?" "No" he says, adding "I want to do that song" Don says "I know you do, but when?" "Now" said David. So Don gets out of bed, makes a few phone calls to assemble someone to work the studio equipment, (they will be using the original backing for the song as used on Mancha's take) David begins to sing in an upright standing position, and as the song progresses, he drops down to crouch, then knees, and finally finishes the song, lay flat on his back, one take, nailed it in one. Don said he had never seen anyone prior or since do what David had just done. Now Don didn't own United Sound Systems until 71/2 so it must have been sung from then onwards, (5/6 years after Mancha's) I don't know if or who David was in contract with, but its fair to say, and his 'Wife' agrees, (spoke to her the other week) that David sure was a loose cannon. If he was under contract then that would have been a good reason why it never came out, until Tim at Anglo bought masters from Willie Davis (Dons brother) and it went onto CD. This and other trivia/facts will be included in my forthcoming book due Nov 2020

19 hours ago, Simon T said:

 

Gwen Owens - Hit And Run telma.mp3 386.16 kB · 11 downloads

Telma (Thelma) Hopkins is one half of Tony Orlando's group Dawn, the other girl being Joyce Vincent, I also wonder if Telma is being taken as a spelling mistake for Thelma as in Thelma Records ? 

21 minutes ago, Gilly said:

Telma (Thelma) Hopkins is one half of Tony Orlando's group Dawn, the other girl being Joyce Vincent, I also wonder if Telma is being taken as a spelling mistake for Thelma as in Thelma Records ? 

Diane Hogans (who dated Stevie Wonder) is another "potential" contender as she was also a member of The Debonaires

It does make me wonder if "one" of these ladies was lead on Hit and Run (the version being discussed) and Telma seems the most likely to me and I think you are spot on about the label. what a fantastic shout mate, maybe Don chose her name for the label (it happens a lot)

 

Edited June 19, 20204 yr by Blackpoolsoul

Another thing is, it could have been the Debonairs singing Hit and Run, but don't forget Rose Batiste was a stunner, and a model, so if you wanted your song to do well, you will always go for the pretty girl 

I will chuck another question in the mix, 'This Heart is Lonely' released by UK Pied Piper (ACE) ive never asked Ady about this, but its down as Rose Batiste as singer. If you go on BMI for this it gives Telma Hopkins as the singer? 

it just gets deeper and deeper me thinks 

5 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Diane Hogans (who dated Stevie Wonder) is another "potential" contender as she was also a member of The Debonaires

It does make me wonder if "one" of these ladies was lead on Hit and Run (the version being discussed) and Telma seems the most likely to me and I think you are spot on about the label. what a fantastic shout mate, maybe Don chose her name for the label (it happens a lot)

 

She is also Thelma Lavern on Northern Da La label, Johnnie Mae Mathews Label.

not just that...but how did 'I Miss My Baby' get to 'Bari Track'?

I'm sure there is a thread on here on somewhere, but can't find it.

1 hour ago, Gilly said:

I will chuck another question in the mix, 'This Heart is Lonely' released by UK Pied Piper (ACE) ive never asked Ady about this, but its down as Rose Batiste as singer. If you go on BMI for this it gives Telma Hopkins as the singer? 

it just gets deeper and deeper me thinks 

    In the liner notes to "Pied Piper Presents ...Detroit Soul", Shelley Haims said he thought the lead singer of 

"This Heart..." was Telma Hopkins.