Reading through Joel 90's thread, there were references to 'newly found northern' and progressive northern. Also we keep hearing about upfront northern....can anybody give a difinitive description of it? Is it brand new? I remember talking to Dave Flynn a few years ago, during the Dome's hey-day and he was pretty sure most records had been played at some time or other and rejected, because they didn't fit the scene at the time. What I'd like to know really is.....this progressive thing, is it all new discoverys, or is it the previously rejected records, how much new stuff is really coming through?

The impression I have is that there is not really much new stuff filtering through, and rather than a progressive scene, it's a reactivation thing.

Any comments??

Winnie:-)

I'll staple your zipper next time I see you

I had 4 guys leave halfway through carl fortnums spot at the last lel and thier passin coment to me on the door " going to catch the last few hours at the post office club to hear some sounds they know "

--------------------

Andy g

Carl played some cracking stuff

I know he did karen, and you played a blinder aswell. But when people walk out and go to the post office club, makes you wonder....

I thought all the dj's played sounds for everybodys tastes. I had a few moans here and there but i thought we were on the right track.

Hi Winnie,I believe you posted a similar response to a thread I started when I had only been a member for a short time........there have been new perspectives within the responses ,I believe

I have had Melvin Davis on KE-KE ...Its no news............ for a few months and had covered the flip ..Wedding Bells.........to find out if this tune meets the requirements of PARTLY answering your original post ,please pop onto John's R.O.R. for a listen.......unless this is an overplayed.............! ATB Stevie

AND AS YET NOBODY REPLIES , HAVING LISTENED TO AN OVERPLAYED..............atb Stevie

Great thread Winnie :-) Progressive tag gives me the fear.

Could of all been over on post #2 mind.

At last someone with a bit of sense proggresive my arse,its 60 and 70s for fucks sake

AND AS YET NOBODY REPLIES , HAVING LISTENED TO AN OVERPLAYED..............atb Stevie

==============

I haven't got any speakers at the moment, so can't listen to anything Steve, soz

Winnie:-)

I'll drink to that

I'll admit that I don't know my arse from my elbow, but some people who use the term 'upfront' generally mean 'expensive price tag'. I've seen playlists claiming to be to be the former, but in reality are very much the latter.

Just because it's rare doesn't necessarily equate 'upfrontness' (Yum Yums, Billy Arnell, John & Weirdest et all)

I'm just happy stumbling about in the 'hopeless drunk' pigeon hole

Jamie

How do you know this is the case??? & how can you tell from a play list, surely this is your personal preferences,cos if you didnt see how many people were dancing this a bit of a farce. Just cos records are fetching large amounts of money doesnt mean they arnt any good......................I find this weird, people dance to what they like, some will like em some wont.

I personally dont give a flying fart how much a record is worth, if I like it I dance or with regards to collecting I buy what I like, sometimes a few pounds, sometimes a few hundred or more pounds but price tag is no indication of quality, as you can tell with the some of the over priced over hyped oldies .

Russ

Edited March 23, 200619 yr by Russ Vickers

The problem is Russ, no fcuker turns up to support the venues that are trying to be different, that's the cold reality.

I, on a personal level, am very much with you on the ethos of what the way forward is musically, but time and time again the 'keyboard commandos' moan about it on forums, but don't get off their ass and pay money at the door.

We're just swimming against the tide......

Jamie

I'll be there when I get home from the US Jamie, you can count on that & come the day of the revolution it shall be proven, as it was with Stafford & other venues, that the people who drive the scene forward will be shown to have taken the correct route. I love oldies in the right context, but theres nothing like hearing a fantastic new tune for the first time, still remember hearing Ady drop the RCA stuff for the first time at the 100 Club & the floor never missed a beat................................Allnighter heaven.

Russ

=============

I agree this subject has been discussed many times, but with SS constantly evolving and attracting new members I don't see it as a problem that it's being discussed again. Although our own views may not be fresh, new members could mean new perspectives, which is all good IMO in debate.

Can't argue with that at all, but as I said, I didn't post because I would be repeating my own opinion on it again. I don't think that theres anymore chance of a definitive or satisfactory answer this time but take your point that new posters may have a different take or outlook. However, we all know how new posters can be treated on here when they express a viewpoint, be it pro or anti.

I believe the reality is that most people don't give a shit about the politics and just like to get on with enjoying themselves. Constantly highlighting the divisions, which, if you think bout it have ALWAYS existed in one form or another can't do any good at all.

Anybody coming on here reading this and other similar posts, including the childish public spat that you and I were involved in recently , may well think 'leave the arrogant b*st*rds to it'.

And for venues of whatever musical policy, that can't be a good thing.

Because they're shite

To me 'upfront' means lesser herd stuff that fits the current criteria of todays sounds lets face it one wonderful moment is shit, it sounds dated! end of, there are so many records out there that are just timeless and they are the key facts in our scene, the urgency and energy that some records create is timeless and could have been made yesterday! upfront doesnt have to be rare! just overlooked because it didn't fit in with the current scene be it in the 70's 80's or 90's and tell you what there is litterly 1000's of these records out there so why do we have to put up with some wannabe DJ thats chasing and spining the same records as every other tom dick and harry! At the end of the day its the promotors that need to wise up and stop using your mates as DJ's get some one who is capable to do the job! i.e some one who wants to be differnt.

Bang on mate

Russ

Russ is about my age (40 and a bit), and seems to be at every venue in the country because whenever you go anywhere he always seems to be there, dancing until the end.

Winnie is about my age (40 and a bit), and seems to be at every venue in the country because whenever you go anywhere he always seems to be there, dancing until the end.

Ahh Ted. I think you may have hit on something here. All this talk from Russ about being in the Navy, and now 'living in America'. Is that a smoke screen because Winnie is getting tired of the costume changes....

I have seen these guys in the same room....but at the same time??? Hmmm Anybody?

Hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah .

Russ

To me the Northern Soul scene has alway's had to be 'progessive', that is what the essence of the scene was about & is about.............enterprising DJ's & Promoters finding lesser known rare soul records & bringing them to the attention of a crowd hungry to hear the latest discoveries, whether you like it or not, that is what the original venues were doing & what the original punters wanted & what the scene was built on.

Years later this is still what excites me & keeps me going to Nighters (When I'm in the UK). I appreciate that it is becoming more & more difficult for those DJ's & promoters that have this drive to keep the Northern scene moving forward with completely new discoveries & it must be a real effort & a labour of love, but my hat goes off to these people, because they are keeping the real Northern Soul scene alive, particularly when from some of the comments I hear on SS & else where they could quite easily, play the same old same old week in & week out & a lot of people would be happy & wrongly imagine that they are part of the Northern scene, well it was the f***ing 'all' oldies nighters that nearly killed the scene first time around.

You can call me what you like & if being called smug means that I prefer to stay true to what the proper Northern Soul scene is about then crack on lofty, I dont give a toss really, I'll stop up all night in my front room if I have to & play records rather than have to go to venues that are playing shite & justify this by saying any one that prefers lesser knowns is smug.

I am not knocking oldies, if thats what you like great, fair play to you, I like them myself, but I dont want them all the time, & certainly not the same ones, mix em up, keep the night interesting, oldies, newies, rarieties, sixties, seventies, Modern, Cossover & New releases too where appropriate, if people have a bit of a moan sometimes but the vast majority are happy most of the time great, let the moaners crack on at least we know they're not dead.

I have gone off slightly on a tangent here I know but to be able to keep new discoveries coming through we have to have the venues & DJ's who are prepared to stick with the true spirit of the scene & by slagging off these people who try very hard to do this kinda thing, its not helping the long term future of Northern Soul as it was intended.

Yeah & I'm a smug bastard, cos I care about the the future of the Northern Soul scene & dont want to be ridiculed as a bunch of fat old people dancing to the same thing they were 20 - 30 yrs ago. I'm still 100% passionate about this music & fortunately there are promoters, DJ's & punters out there that are too & I salute you & more power to you, its not alway's easy to do the righ thing.

Now come on then I'm ready for the smart arses to start the slagging instead of thinking of the greater good of the scene.

Smug Russ

Good call Russ. Progressive Northern.. almost a contradiction methinks, but desirable nontheless. I've had many an earbending from Northern Soul fans over the years for playing "Non-Northern" tunes at Northern Soul Nights e.g. Bobby Patterson "I'm In Love With You" back in 75, Brothers Guiding Light "Getting Together" in 73, Darrel Banks "I'm The One Who Loves You" in 74, Invitations "They Say The Girls Crazy" in 73, Ujima "I'm Not Ready" in 75 etc. etc. material that was either brand new at the time or only a couple of years old when I played them, all established "Northern Soul" tunes some 30 years later. But you're right, in order to progress DJ's need to dig deep and mix up the format, keep it soulful and not rely on the tried and tested monotony associated with the "oldies" scene. Oldies with imagination by all means. New discoveries..yes please, New releases, of course... (I could play you stuff from the last few years that would have been massive 30 + years ago... had they been around). But you know the score Russ, you're a Yarmouth lad, when you're in the UK so you know the stuff I'm referring to. Bring it on in a couple of weeks. Also, check out the upcoming Cleethorpes dayer which will feature a PITCHES / Phoenix room ...with the original PITCHES DJ's for a dose of real Progressive Northern Soul. Smug Plug over.

Hope you're well Russ. Watch the blood pressure.

Sean

Good call Russ. Progressive Northern.. almost a contradiction methinks, but desirable nontheless. I've had many an earbending from Northern Soul fans over the years for playing "Non-Northern" tunes at Northern Soul Nights e.g. Bobby Patterson "I'm In Love With You" back in 75, Brothers Guiding Light "Getting Together" in 73, Darrel Banks "I'm The One Who Loves You" in 74, Invitations "They Say The Girls Crazy" in 73, Ujima "I'm Not Ready" in 75 etc. etc. material that was either brand new at the time or only a couple of years old when I played them, all established "Northern Soul" tunes some 30 years later. But you're right, in order to progress DJ's need to dig deep and mix up the format, keep it soulful and not rely on the tried and tested monotony associated with the "oldies" scene. Oldies with imagination by all means. New discoveries..yes please, New releases, of course... (I could play you stuff from the last few years that would have been massive 30 + years ago... had they been around). But you know the score Russ, you're a Yarmouth lad, when you're in the UK so you know the stuff I'm referring to. Bring it on in a couple of weeks. Also, check out the upcoming Cleethorpes dayer which will feature a PITCHES / Phoenix room ...with the original PITCHES DJ's for a dose of real Progressive Northern Soul. Smug Plug over.

Hope you're well Russ. Watch the blood pressure.

Sean

Summed up perfectly Sean

Today's Modern = tomorrows Northern.

Hopefully see you at Cleggy but there's a hell of a lot on that day.

Mart...

Kev is NOT from Sheffield Stuart. He is a Derbyshire woollyback who no doubt attached himself to Sheffield W*dn*sd*y when they were a , ahem, "big club'. (ie when they got to a cup final. And lost 3-2. God bless

You're both wrong our kev is from Sutton-in Ashfield, Notts.

**************************************************************************

Back to the topic, can you remember when we used to TRAVEL to hear these RECORDS played, there were very few TAPE RECORDERS, NO C.Ds or MP3s.The only way to hear them was at a venue

No one had large collections, except a privilaged few and certain DJs.

We HAD to travel to hear the music, no Radio2, No local stations with special soul slots.

Nowadays the music is readily available, EVERY WHERE on TV ads etc, we all buy CDs for one or two tracks, but with the help of people like Ady who MADE people listen to other stuff it opened up the scene.

So now you go to a local soul night or all nighter with a vast amount of knowlage in your head, if you are constantly searching for something new, there are very few places you can go.

A DJs job is to fill the dance floor, a GOOD DJ on our scene will be constantly adding "new" sounds into his spots, so his Set will change completly over a 6 month span, the records added will move on to be "Big" when other DJs pick them up and they get played in other clubs and people get to know them.

There are plenty of venues offering "New ,Rare & forgotten" sounds Most of the Big crossover stuff was discovered at Thorne in the 80s which was a small crowd (50ish) but now has moved on to a broader appeal as the 60s sounds "run out".

Oldies venues will continue to thrive, even I like the odd oldies do now and again, like Joan said its like going to the Pictures every week to watch the same film over again, however I like to watch "Forrest Gump" at least twicwe a year and "Rita ,Sue & Bob too" always has me pissing myself, so you pays your money and you makes your choice, just do what you enjoy, after all really its just a social scene "Birds of a feather flock together" with a F****ing BRILLIANT SOUNDTRACK whatever your taste .

Kev is NOT from Sheffield Stuart. He is a Derbyshire woollyback who no doubt attached himself to Sheffield W*dn*sd*y when they were a , ahem, "big club'. (ie when they got to a cup final. And lost 3-2. God bless

You're both wrong our kev is from Sutton-in Ashfield, Notts.

I stand corrected Rob, thought he was from Matlock. A Notts woollyback then

Edited March 24, 200619 yr by SteveM

Can't argue with that at all, but as I said, I didn't post because I would be repeating my own opinion on it again. I don't think that theres anymore chance of a definitive or satisfactory answer this time but take your point that new posters may have a different take or outlook. However, we all know how new posters can be treated on here when they express a viewpoint, be it pro or anti.

I believe the reality is that most people don't give a shit about the politics and just like to get on with enjoying themselves. Constantly highlighting the divisions, which, if you think bout it have ALWAYS existed in one form or another can't do any good at all.

Anybody coming on here reading this and other similar posts, including the childish public spat that you and I were involved in recently , may well think 'leave the arrogant b*st*rds to it'.

And for venues of whatever musical policy, that can't be a good thing.

===========

I agree we were a little childish, but not sure about arrogant. The spat we had wasn't about this subject in general, more to do with politics within SS. I won't rehash it, as I'm sure neither will you, from what I can gather it was down to a misunderstanding on both our parts.

Arrogance to me is saying something like this or that record is shit, without taking into account that other people may like it. Perhaps that's why some new members don't post so much, their taste in music and their views are often treated with contempt, particularly if they don't fit the current trend.

As for highlighting the divisions, I don't think it's a secret is it? I see it all the time on here, people saying choose the sort of venue you want, people promoting the sort of music they'd like to hear, they're the people promoting the divisions. I do agree it's not a good thing, but suppose it's human nature.

If there was a multitude of new discoveries coming through, then perhaps I could understand the terms 'upfront' or progressive, but theres not, basically it's just a different set of oldies. Nothing wrong with that, but progressive for me would be to embrace all the different genres in one place. Just my personal opinion and not a difinitive answer by any means, but it could just slow the divisions down?

I also understand that yourself and others feel they've had their say, so no longer want to (or don't feel the need to) take part in this debate

Winnie;-)

Bang on mate

Russ

===========

You say bang on to Baz's statement re: current criteria, and sounds fitting it. Pointing out the obvious, todays scene is predominately an oldies scene, so that would appear to be the current criteria.

I take it you're talking about the 'progressive' scene, I'd still like to know who is responsible for setting that criteria, it clearly isn't just about playing underplayed oldies, or apple peaches or breakaway could be included. The criteria it seems to me is more about reactivating records that were rejected first time round, but I don't know because no one has told me yet

And before anyone says those records are shit, I am trying to point out that they would fall into the underplayed (these days) category. I'd also like to say if I heard them I'd probably dance to them, cos as Steve said it's about enjoyment.

One other point, are those pushing the 'progressive' scene, more listeners than dancers?

Winnie:-)

===========

I agree we were a little childish, but not sure about arrogant. The spat we had wasn't about this subject in general, more to do with politics within SS. I won't rehash it, as I'm sure neither will you, from what I can gather it was down to a misunderstanding on both our parts.

Arrogance to me is saying something like this or that record is shit, without taking into account that other people may like it. Perhaps that's why some new members don't post so much, their taste in music and their views are often treated with contempt, particularly if they don't fit the current trend.

As for highlighting the divisions, I don't think it's a secret is it? I see it all the time on here, people saying choose the sort of venue you want, people promoting the sort of music they'd like to hear, they're the people promoting the divisions. I do agree it's not a good thing, but suppose it's human nature.

If there was a multitude of new discoveries coming through, then perhaps I could understand the terms 'upfront' or progressive, but theres not, basically it's just a different set of oldies. Nothing wrong with that, but progressive for me would be to embrace all the different genres in one place. Just my personal opinion and not a difinitive answer by any means, but it could just slow the divisions down?

I also understand that yourself and others feel they've had their say, so no longer want to (or don't feel the need to) take part in this debate

Winnie;-)

Perception of arrogance to outsiders really Winnie.

I understand the reason for your post, its just that I can't add anything to what I've said already, and didn't post because it would almost certainly led the topic away from your original intention, which was, I believe, seeking a definitive meaning of 'progressive'.

Not a criticism of your or the thread

===========

I agree we were a little childish, but not sure about arrogant. The spat we had wasn't about this subject in general, more to do with politics within SS. I won't rehash it, as I'm sure neither will you, from what I can gather it was down to a misunderstanding on both our parts.

Arrogance to me is saying something like this or that record is shit, without taking into account that other people may like it. Perhaps that's why some new members don't post so much, their taste in music and their views are often treated with contempt, particularly if they don't fit the current trend.

As for highlighting the divisions, I don't think it's a secret is it? I see it all the time on here, people saying choose the sort of venue you want, people promoting the sort of music they'd like to hear, they're the people promoting the divisions. I do agree it's not a good thing, but suppose it's human nature.

If there was a multitude of new discoveries coming through, then perhaps I could understand the terms 'upfront' or progressive, but theres not, basically it's just a different set of oldies. Nothing wrong with that, but progressive for me would be to embrace all the different genres in one place. Just my personal opinion and not a difinitive answer by any means, but it could just slow the divisions down?

I also understand that yourself and others feel they've had their say, so no longer want to (or don't feel the need to) take part in this debate

Winnie;-)

As a newbie I agree with Winnie I don't know wha't an oldie,progressive 60's, 70's is I just know it's a great tune ....... and that's why there is a reluctance to post an opinion.

I've spent 30+ years playing music and am really now only enjoying and discovering soul music........

I'm listening to Phyllis Hyman - you know how to love me and the next track on my player is Billy Butler - the right track ----- different styles but one thing in common just good soul music..............

Next you'll be telling me it is arrogant to say that oldies fans are plastics, third class tickets and progressive fans are real Northern Soul fans ;-)

Honestly this PC stuff just goes toooooo far.

Since the mid 70s there have been at least a couple of scenes running concurrently under the umbrella term Northern Soul. Since the Casino started running specifically Oldies all-nighters reviving sounds from the Torch, Wheel, Cats, early Wigan etc. there has been a (seemingly massive) demand for that sort of night.

But running alongside that has always been the desire to find and play new sounds. Richard Searling's plays from the late Wigan era defined the idea of 'progressive'. Records like Cecil Washington, John & The Wierdest etc. had a very different sound in the late 70s to records which had been huge only eighteen months before: harder-edged, darker, more esoteric. Add the new releases or recently made rarities that he was programming into the mix and this was a very different type of NS. He wasn't doing anything specifically new in terms of his approach, because the 'pioneering' spirit had always been the bedrock of the scene from day one until 'oldies mania' took a hold as stated above. Searling was by no means the only one, but he was a figurehead for those who thought that something of that pioneering feel had been lost. The Stafford deejays and a dedicated number of collectors took up the baton in the 80s, and that spirit clings on to this day: Lifeline, Soul Essence etc. all feature a host of deejays not content to go down the defeatist route of saying there are no great rare soul records left to be found and programmed. It's not merely about reactivations only, because I can think of a reasonable number of plays from the likes of Butch, Soul Sam, Andy Dyson and others that have never been tried anywhere before; the great thing is that a number of these records are fantastic, certainly good enough to have been played anywhere, any time. Yes, there's going to be a law of diminishing returns in trying to find new sounds to play, but are you saying that no-one should attempt to keep things fresh or even mildly radical, Winnie?

This scene is smaller, but is that such a bad thing? The Lifeline weekender was only about a tenth of the size of Prestatyn in terms of people attending, but there were still enough people there to fill the venue, have a great time and listen to fresher sounds. It was by no means about 'chin stroking' alone: the dancefloor saw plenty of action and the atmosphere was buzzing for the nighter sessions.

The aspect of the Northern scene that keeps me coming back is the hope of experiencing great soul records I've never heard before, rather than revelling in a historical reenactment society dedicated to something that was great thirty years ago. I realise that I may be in a minority, but as far as I'm concerned it is the only way forward: without a feeling that it is moving forward in at least some small way, the scene as a whole (including oldies only all nighters) will die on its arse.

Edited March 24, 200619 yr by garethx

I have just finished reading this really interesting, if somewhat pointless thread. I have found some of the points very interesting.

I don't know about definitions but I know what I like and I guess we are wll the same. My points for what they are worth (I realise this is very little but as much as anyone elses)

The top 500 - Kev did spend some time eliciting views from all people on what should be in the top 500 he appealed via magazines and Richard's radio show. I disagree with the vast majority of them but then I didn't send him my views at the time so there's no wonder. The title put me off I just knew it could only ever be right at a split second in time. I can't write two personal top tens five minutes apart and them be the same so defining the top 500 for everyone for all time was a doomed project.

The Shakers - Classic northern and a superb record in its day it once had the power to make the hairs satnd up on the back of my neck but now I'd rather not hear it for 15 years or so and then maybe it would sound fresh again . Whinnie if you want to hear it get to Preston Grasshoppers last friday of the month you'll hear it and loads like it every month.

Progressive - just a word to give punters a clue

Up Front - just a phrase to give punters a clue

There are very very few new tracks on the scene but loads that are new to me. Pick up a price guide pick a single page a see how many of the tracks listed you can hand on heart say you have heard in the last three months? And on any page for most of us at least there will be some we don't know at all (by name at least) maybe these are the upfront or progressive ones?

There are very very few new tracks on the scene but loads that are new to me.

Ditto Ged, and thats got to be the case with the vast majority of people.

There are very very few new tracks on the scene but loads that are new to me.

Ditto Ged, and thats got to be the case with the vast majority of people.

Absolutely ...... EVERY record is a NEW record the FIRST time you hear it .....

Since the mid 70s there have been at least a couple of scenes running concurrently under the umbrella term Northern Soul. Since the Casino started running specifically Oldies all-nighters reviving sounds from the Torch, Wheel, Cats, early Wigan etc. there has been a (seemingly massive) demand for that sort of night.

But running alongside that has always been the desire to find and play new sounds. Richard Searling's plays from the late Wigan era defined the idea of 'progressive'. Records like Cecil Washington, John & The Wierdest etc. had a very different sound in the late 70s to records which had been huge only eighteen months before: harder-edged, darker, more esoteric. Add the new releases or recently made rarities that he was programming into the mix and this was a very different type of NS. He wasn't doing anything specifically new in terms of his approach, because the 'pioneering' spirit had always been the bedrock of the scene from day one until 'oldies mania' took a hold as stated above. Searling was by no means the only one, but he was a figurehead for those who thought that something of that pioneering feel had been lost. The Stafford deejays and a dedicated number of collectors took up the baton in the 80s, and that spirit clings on to this day: Lifeline, Soul Essence etc. all feature a host of deejays not content to go down the defeatist route of saying there are no great rare soul records left to be found and programmed. It's not merely about reactivations only, because I can think of a reasonable number of plays from the likes of Butch, Soul Sam, Andy Dyson and others that have never been tried anywhere before; the great thing is that a number of these records are fantastic, certainly good enough to have been played anywhere, any time. Yes, there's going to be a law of diminishing returns in trying to find new sounds to play, but are you saying that no-one should attempt to keep things fresh or even mildly radical, Winnie?

This scene is smaller, but is that such a bad thing? The Lifeline weekender was only about a tenth of the size of Prestatyn in terms of people attending, but there were still enough people there to fill the venue, have a great time and listen to fresher sounds. It was by no means about 'chin stroking' alone: the dancefloor saw plenty of action and the atmosphere was buzzing for the nighter sessions.

The aspect of the Northern scene that keeps me coming back is the hope of experiencing great soul records I've never heard before, rather than revelling in a historical reenactment society dedicated to something that was great thirty years ago. I realise that I may be in a minority, but as far as I'm concerned it is the only way forward: without a feeling that it is moving forward in at least some small way, the scene as a whole (including oldies only all nighters) will die on its arse.

=================

Pretty sure I didn't say that Gareth, in fact I gave my view of what I consider progressive, something from every genre under one roof, which is paraphrasing Russ's view.

The new terms 'upfront' etc seem to promote elitism, and I feel that that will and is a far greater danger to the scene than anything else. The constant theme that comes across on here is that those liking oldies are second class citizens who don't have the ability or knowledge to like anything else, which I just don't think is accurate. It could also be argued that people stay away from newies events because they don't want to be ridiculed, either in the way they dance or the way they dress. I find these sort of attitudes much more divisive in creating splits. For some reason these attitudes are never really addressed, for whatever reason, maybe the 'elitists' don't feel they deserve an answer, or maybe they just feel they're the irrelevant views of an average soulie. Who really knows, I certainly don't. What I do know is that I've done upfront venues for years and enjoyed them alongside oldies events, now I'd like to see an end to the elitism and enjoy them in the same venue, without someone telling me "This is what you should be dancing to".

I accept that lifeline etc are not all about 'chinstroking', but can't help thinking most of the people promoting that style of music on here aren't what I'd classify as dancers. Please be aware I've said most and not all. Hearing new/reactivated sounds isn't always what dancers want, and personally I think they've got just as much of a say in musical direction as anybody else??

I don't neccessarily think you're in a minority Gareth, I think there are lots of people who want to hear something different, but not at the expense of being told they're favourites are rubbish and don't stand the test of time. To me that is arrogance personified.

Winnie:-)

I have just finished reading this really interesting, if somewhat pointless thread. I have found some of the points very interesting.

I don't know about definitions but I know what I like and I guess we are wll the same. My points for what they are worth (I realise this is very little but as much as anyone elses)

The top 500 - Kev did spend some time eliciting views from all people on what should be in the top 500 he appealed via magazines and Richard's radio show. I disagree with the vast majority of them but then I didn't send him my views at the time so there's no wonder. The title put me off I just knew it could only ever be right at a split second in time. I can't write two personal top tens five minutes apart and them be the same so defining the top 500 for everyone for all time was a doomed project.

The Shakers - Classic northern and a superb record in its day it once had the power to make the hairs satnd up on the back of my neck but now I'd rather not hear it for 15 years or so and then maybe it would sound fresh again . Whinnie if you want to hear it get to Preston Grasshoppers last friday of the month you'll hear it and loads like it every month.

Progressive - just a word to give punters a clue

Up Front - just a phrase to give punters a clue

There are very very few new tracks on the scene but loads that are new to me. Pick up a price guide pick a single page a see how many of the tracks listed you can hand on heart say you have heard in the last three months? And on any page for most of us at least there will be some we don't know at all (by name at least) maybe these are the upfront or progressive ones?

==============

Ged I keep trying to explain I haven't chosen that record because I want to hear it, I've chosen it because it comes within the category of underplayed these days. What seems to be the general consensus from the posts is that it doesn't have the quality to get into an underplayed/reactivated/new release kind of night and that seems kind of snobbish to me, because most people would have danced to it at some time.

As you, Steve and Joan have said, pick up a list and there will be things on there you either haven't heard, or can't remember and of course some of them are worth spinning again, but what worries me is who decides. If venue A in the North for instance goes down the road of playing 'apple peaches' which is never played anymore and others of the same ilk, they will be ridiculed as having no taste (in all likelyhood).

Venue B in the south, plays reactivated oldies, but plays things that weren't popular first time round and they are heralded as groundbreakers. Both are doing the same thing, but in some eyes the quality of the music differs, but in essence both are doing the same thing, playing things that no longer get spun.

Maybe I'm missing something very important within the debate.........taste

You're right it is quite a pointless thread, as it doesn't look like anything definitive can be decided, so really for the future of the scene the die is cast.

Winnie:-)

===========

You say bang on to Baz's statement re: current criteria, and sounds fitting it. Pointing out the obvious, todays scene is predominately an oldies scene, so that would appear to be the current criteria.

I take it you're talking about the 'progressive' scene, I'd still like to know who is responsible for setting that criteria, it clearly isn't just about playing underplayed oldies, or apple peaches or breakaway could be included. The criteria it seems to me is more about reactivating records that were rejected first time round, but I don't know because no one has told me yet

And before anyone says those records are shit, I am trying to point out that they would fall into the underplayed (these days) category. I'd also like to say if I heard them I'd probably dance to them, cos as Steve said it's about enjoyment.

One other point, are those pushing the 'progressive' scene, more listeners than dancers?

Winnie:-)

hi winnie

i think and this is only my opinion that the upfront and progressive are as said on hear just a guide to let people know what they are likely to hear at the venue,

there are not so many new things turning up and quite often one mans new discovery is someones oldie.

This is because as stated on hear we have not heard everything ever played and because of the way i am and for the very reason i got into the music in the first was to hear new stuff as much as possible, one reason why we all used to travel huge distances in the 70's as there was always records that one dj had that the others did not.

the type of records i like may have been overlooked in the 70's or became fairly popular in the 80's which i missed for contractual reasons

there was an awful lot of stuff got played maybe once or twice at the likes of blackpool, wigan, stafford, cleethorpes, and a lot of other places a lot of stuff was considered to easily obtained in the 70's so never got a look in.

1 case in point Rhonda davis a staple for collectors and tape swappers in the 70's got played again in 20001/2 and look what happened it went from small clubs to the main room and wham! a cheap record can no longer fill the demand, and this happens very often,

the upfront/progressive clubs also borrow from other genres of music popcorn R&B, it is just to keep freshness in the music, as is said on here all the time new to my ears!

no one asks or tells anyone what to do or where to go you make your own choice the only way you can make that decision is if the club puts it on the flyer or someone you know has been, if it was not put on the flyer then we would have lots of disgruntled oldies fans coming up every minute asking for stuff they know or my favourite one have you go anything we can dance to.

without some from of description you have no way of knowing if you will enjoy the music.

i have no problem with oldies i just do not enjoy listening to the same things week in week out there are lots of underplayed oldie (stompers) but i think a lot are just too fast for failing old legs, when was the last time you heard terrible tom, saxie russell, velvet satins, johnny bragg and too many to list, i am not saying oldies are shit they are not they just have there place and i choose not to go there.

i know that this will not satiate your thirst for an answer but i have had a go.

remember it is always the dj that chooses to play the records not the dancers the dancers just confirm his choice.

mark

==============

Ged I keep trying to explain I haven't chosen that record because I want to hear it, I've chosen it because it comes within the category of underplayed these days. What seems to be the general consensus from the posts is that it doesn't have the quality to get into an underplayed/reactivated/new release kind of night and that seems kind of snobbish to me, because most people would have danced to it at some time.

Winnie:-)

Point taken Winnie. I was just pointing out that for me it certainly doesn't fit into the 'underplayed' category. I don't go to hoppers that often now but when I do it gets played. I think, for me at least, it has the quality but I'm just tired of hearing it. I genuinely believe I may feel good about it as a record if I heard it again after it had faded from my memory. I suspect regional differences are at play here.

Wish I'd gone / been around to go to Canal Tavern - Thorne to hear the stuff Rod Dearlove et al were spinning.

Rich

I once asked a wise old soul called Pete Lawson what he thought made a soul record a GREAT soul record ... and he replied that a great soul record is one that

sounds as good the LAST time you heard it ... as it did the FIRST time you heard it ..... no matter HOW MANY times you've heard it .....

Yes i'll admit to dancing to one wonderful moment when i first started on the scene only because i didn't have anything to compare it to because it was all new to me ... they were all great.

After a while though you realise that they're not all great.

You soon realise that it's records like Eddie Parker that are great ..... and that the likes of One Wonderful Moment are not ...

Have enjoyed the debate, but as was said numerous times no real definitive answer possible So will close the thread to avoid any more repetition. If anybody wants the right of reply, let me know and I'll re-open it. Thanks to everyone for your input.

Winnie:-)