say a worthwhile read from 1998 interview with Bill Brewster

some interesting points raised/made/discussed and guess even the image text could make an interesting discussion start point

"I would argue that all pop music stems from black american music" ....

 

 

The bit about taking the Ad-Libs to the Casino is just plain wrong, the record was massive late 71/early 72, it was played at the L'Ambassador in Bradford even before the Torch opened. I bought an issue copy from Ralphs in Manchester on the way to the Torch not long after it opened for nighters, it was the first "true full price" import i ever bought, as opposed to Bradford Market, F.L.Moores etc. cut outs..

 

If Mr Godin took the record anywhere it must have been to the Wheel or possibly the Mecca.

Edited January 30, 20187 yr by Kegsy

I , can't open the attachment but if it's Nothing worse than being alone it was definitely played around 1971as a cover up. I think John bollen  brought it up north for Dave

I’m sure I remember DG writing about taking the Ad Libs to the Wheel, along with “Prove yourself a lady”, in one of his B&S columns

Interesting piece. I agree completly with his criticism of cover-ups. I've never understood the need for them or agreed with the justification behind them. In a nutshell he sums up why they should be incompatible with the soul scene.

Sadly there's the usual dig at the Rolling Stones. Even by his standards this one is offensive, to the the point where it's almost funny. Aside from  insulting the Stones (and other Britsh R&B artist who he never mentions) it's  equally offensive to the black American blues and R&B artists who were on very friendly terms with Jagger, Clapton, Burdon  at al and who openly welcomed the boost that their British fans (Jagger Richards were R&B obsessives and primarilly fans) gave to their carrers and status.

Between these two "Poles" the other points are intersting conversation starters but the dates eem ot be out here and thereby a couple of years.. 

35 minutes ago, maslar said:

Interesting piece. I agree completly with his criticism of cover-ups. I've never understood the need for them or agreed with the justification behind them. In a nutshell he sums up why they should be incompatible with the soul scene.

Sadly there's the usual dig at the Rolling Stones. Even by his standards this one is offensive, to the the point where it's almost funny. Aside from  insulting the Stones (and other Britsh R&B artist who he never mentions) it's  equally offensive to the black American blues and R&B artists who were on very friendly terms with Jagger, Clapton, Burdon  at al and who openly welcomed the boost that their British fans (Jagger Richards were R&B obsessives and primarilly fans) gave to their carrers and status.

Between these two "Poles" the other points are intersting conversation starters but the dates eem ot be out here and thereby a couple of years.. 

Hi,

I've not listened to the article but Dave was the first person I know to have done a 'cover up'!! - As I mentioned earlier, this was the Adlibs - Nothing worse which he gave to John Bollen to bring 'up north' for us to play. Pretty sure he covered another tune but I can't remember what it was.

1 minute ago, JulianB said:

Hi,

I've not listened to the article but Dave was the first person I know to have done a 'cover up'!! - As I mentioned earlier, this was the Adlibs - Nothing worse which he gave to John Bollen to bring 'up north' for us to play. Pretty sure he covered another tune but I can't remember what it was.

Julian, its a written article, here's the direct link

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/01/dave-godin-interview?linkId=47393339

47 minutes ago, maslar said:

Interesting piece. I agree completly with his criticism of cover-ups. I've never understood the need for them or agreed with the justification behind them. In a nutshell he sums up why they should be incompatible with the soul scene.

Sadly there's the usual dig at the Rolling Stones. Even by his standards this one is offensive, to the the point where it's almost funny. Aside from  insulting the Stones (and other Britsh R&B artist who he never mentions) it's  equally offensive to the black American blues and R&B artists who were on very friendly terms with Jagger, Clapton, Burdon  at al and who openly welcomed the boost that their British fans (Jagger Richards were R&B obsessives and primarilly fans) gave to their carrers and status.

Between these two "Poles" the other points are intersting conversation starters but the dates eem ot be out here and thereby a couple of years.. 

I totally agree with you,it was the Bands and solo artists of 60s GB love of R and B that helped promote Black artists of the u.s.a. 

29 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Hi,

I've not listened to the article but Dave was the first person I know to have done a 'cover up'!! - As I mentioned earlier, this was the Adlibs - Nothing worse which he gave to John Bollen to bring 'up north' for us to play. Pretty sure he covered another tune but I can't remember what it was.

Given that Godin released the other Ad-Libs Share release Giving Up/Appreciation on Deep Soul, it makes you wonder whether he might have had plans to release NWTBA as well.

1 hour ago, maslar said:

Interesting piece. I agree completly with his criticism of cover-ups. I've never understood the need for them or agreed with the justification behind them. In a nutshell he sums up why they should be incompatible with the soul scene.

Sadly there's the usual dig at the Rolling Stones. Even by his standards this one is offensive, to the the point where it's almost funny. Aside from  insulting the Stones (and other Britsh R&B artist who he never mentions) it's  equally offensive to the black American blues and R&B artists who were on very friendly terms with Jagger, Clapton, Burdon  at al and who openly welcomed the boost that their British fans (Jagger Richards were R&B obsessives and primarilly fans) gave to their carrers and status.

Between these two "Poles" the other points are intersting conversation starters but the dates eem ot be out here and thereby a couple of years.. 

Did he ever explain in any detail why he disliked the Stones so much? Maybe it was politically motivated - Mick Jagger was already being wowed by Times editor William Rees-Mogg (yes, the father) in 1968 for his libertarian views. 

Clapton is credited by some with inspiring the Rock Against Racism movement after a drunken concert appearance some time in 1976 when he spoke in favour of the NF. Not really the sort of thing you'd expect a blues afficionado to do.

Possibly Godin thought that tax exiles were poor champions of a musical form born out of suffering.

1 hour ago, mike said:

Julian, its a written article, here's the direct link

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/01/dave-godin-interview?linkId=47393339

Thanks Mike. Will read it

23 hours ago, Kegsy said:

The bit about taking the Ad-Libs to the Casino is just plain wrong, the record was massive late 71/early 72, it was played at the L'Ambassador in Bradford even before the Torch opened. I bought an issue copy from Ralphs in Manchester on the way to the Torch not long after it opened for nighters, it was the first "true full price" import i ever bought, as opposed to Bradford Market, F.L.Moores etc. cut outs..

 

If Mr Godin took the record anywhere it must have been to the Wheel or possibly the Mecca.

 

3 hours ago, JulianB said:

Hi,

I've not listened to the article but Dave was the first person I know to have done a 'cover up'!! - As I mentioned earlier, this was the Adlibs - Nothing worse which he gave to John Bollen to bring 'up north' for us to play. Pretty sure he covered another tune but I can't remember what it was.

Iv'e Read The Article Where Dave Godin Said " He Took It To Wigan " It Was Well Established By Then ! , I Was At The Wheel The Nite He First Played It - He Also Played " Bull & The Matadors -on Toddling Town ( Move And Groove ) Plus " Larry Banks -I Don't Wanna Do It (Which Was Already Played In The Wheel) . I recollect Him Also Playing " Barbara Lynn - Take Your Love And Run- JETSTREAM But Not Sure If That Was His First Or Second Visit ?? .

Within A Month Of DAVE Playing " The Ad Libs " BARRY TASKER Was Playing It At The First PENDULUM 

3 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

Did he ever explain in any detail why he disliked the Stones so much? Maybe it was politically motivated - Mick Jagger was already being wowed by Times editor William Rees-Mogg (yes, the father) in 1968 for his libertarian views. 

Clapton is credited by some with inspiring the Rock Against Racism movement after a drunken concert appearance some time in 1976 when he spoke in favour of the NF. Not really the sort of thing you'd expect a blues afficionado to do.

Possibly Godin thought that tax exiles were poor champions of a musical form born out of suffering.

Not that I'm aware of. His dislike of Jagger in particular seems completly irrational. I've read the stories attributed to their relationship and each one fell apart instantly. None of it adds up. What's strange is that so many people seem to accept it and revel in it : DG the man who told Jagger to f*** off. The man who introduced Jagger to the blues. etc, etc

    

For me the Stones are among those who always "got it" re black music. They could do it authentically, as opposed to pastiche or nervously respectful tribute. They've done a lot of other stuff that doesn't really fit the category, but that's no reason to condemn them. Jagger produced the recent film doc of James Brown, and it's clear how much he held and still holds JB in awe.

Perhaps we'll be none the wiser until Jagger publishes his autobiography. Or maybe Jerry Hall will provide some clues 

Sadly it's not so uncommon that a loathing of personality overrides any objective appreciation of that person's work or achievements. Perhaps Mick ran off with Dave's girlfriend. How out of character that would have been 

Could it be because the stones were a pathway to authentic r&b and Dave Godin thought people should seek it out themselves without needing pointers or guidance ?

 

just a thought...

Edited January 31, 20187 yr by dylan

45 minutes ago, Mickey Finn said:

 

 

Sadly it's not so uncommon that a loathing of personality overrides any objective appreciation of that person's work or achievements. Perhaps Mick ran off with Dave's girlfriend. How out of character that would have been 

Very unlikely that Mr Godin had a girlfriend for Mick to run off with

2 hours ago, dylan said:

Could it be because the stones were a pathway to authentic r&b and Dave Godin thought people should seek it out themselves without needing pointers or guidance ?

 

just a thought...

Perhaps it was because the Stones did covers of loads of black American stuff in the early days but never really acknowledged the fact or gave the original artists any credit. 

Didn't DG and Mick Jagger know each other at school ? I recall a story about Mick asking Dave about meeting Marvin Gaye on an early tour and getting a curt reply... it's clear there was bad blood.

Also not sure the Stones covered 'loads of black American stuff' without giving credit... any examples ?

46 minutes ago, soulski said:

Didn't DG and Mick Jagger know each other at school ? I recall a story about Mick asking Dave about meeting Marvin Gaye on an early tour and getting a curt reply... it's clear there was bad blood.

Also not sure the Stones covered 'loads of black American stuff' without giving credit... any examples ?

1 No, they weren't at school together. the age gap between them is too great. it is of course possible they knew each other although I've never seen any reference to DG in any Stones or Jagger biography. 

2.  Why would Mick Jagger, one of the world's leading pop stars, have to ask Dave Godin to introduce him to Marvin Gaye? Didn't this question spring right out at you?  It's completley absurd and untrue. They'd already ,met backstage at a concert in  the States prior to DGs version of events. They were already on friendly speaking terms. Just as MJ was on friendly terms with James Brown at the same concert.  They didn't need introductions. It wasn't a garden party.

I found this today via google. I wasn't going to  mention it but .it just shows you don't have to dig too deep before you hit ......

From the udiscovermusic website (not sure of source). On  DG and the naming of the Stones in 1962 -.

  There was also the small matter of what the band should call themselves. According to Dave Godin, a friend from Kent, where Mick and Keith grew up, “I was there when they decided on the name, and there is no way that it came from the Muddy Waters 78 "Rolling Stone Blues". No one would be seen dead with 78s, we exclusively had 45s and 7" EPs. I had the Muddy Waters "Mississippi Blues" EP on London that includes "Mannish Boy" which has the interjection ‘Ooo I’m a rollin’ stone’.” Not everyone liked the name, particularly Ian Stewart, "I said it was a terrible name. It sounded like the name of an Irish Show Band, or something that ought to be playing at the Savoy."

All this is unture. The story of how the Stones were named is well known enough. Brian Jones named them, not "they". And it was done by phone to Jazz Review. He chose the name on the spot by looking at the track listing on a Muddy waters LP beside him. This would be a "best of" released in 1958. There weren't any other that contained Rollin' Stone. It's all a little petty.  Why does DG feel  the need to provide his version?

And a "friend"? Really. That aside, he doesn't seem aware of the fact that the track was available on an LP that the Stones/ Brian Jones had in their possession.  DG may have had singles and e.p.s but they were not exclusive at all. Jagger was ordering Chess LPs from the States prior to all this.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe they were more knowledgeable than him? Or at least equal? And he only ever talks about Jagger. The Stone were initially Brian Jones' band. And what about Richards. he was also  into R&B for years and  Watts was a jazz affecionado of long standing.

All the prime movers  on the 1950s UK blues and R&B scene  -Alexis Korner, Chris Barber, John Myall etc had no qualms about the Rolling Stones at all.

4 hours ago, Kegsy said:

Perhaps it was because the Stones did covers of loads of black American stuff in the early days but never really acknowledged the fact or gave the original artists any credit. 

Muddy Waters, BB King, Sonny Boy Williamson etc etc   said otherwise

The Britsh R&B groups and the Beatles did more to popularise black American artists than anyone else.

Seem to remember dg having a dig at old Elton somewhere in print. Anyone? 

I can understand DG being just pissed of in general about the British R and B  boom, whether the British acts credited them or not. Bo didn't make diddly compared to the stones. I felt exactly the same way when the prodigy sold millions to divs, by sampling C. C. Rodgers and Marshall Jefferson's sublime 'Someday'. 

Edited January 31, 20187 yr by geeselad

10 hours ago, soulski said:

Didn't DG and Mick Jagger know each other at school ? I recall a story about Mick asking Dave about meeting Marvin Gaye on an early tour and getting a curt reply... it's clear there was bad blood.

Also not sure the Stones covered 'loads of black American stuff' without giving credit... any examples ?

Firstly I said "perhaps", secondly it depends what is meant by credit. Did the Stones acknowledge/give credit in interviews, with regard to the origins of many of their early recordings, maybe they did I wasn't looking at the Stones very closely at the time, maybe Godin thought they didn't. Obviously they had to "credit" the songwriters on the records, but let lets face it how many people took notice or knew who they were. The Spencer Davis Group and Jackie Edwards being a perfect example, who the hell knew who J. Edwards was at the time ?.

Edited February 1, 20187 yr by Kegsy

When Howlin' Wolf recorded his "London Sessions" album for Chess in 1971 he was accompanied by Charlie Watts, Ian Stewart and Bill Wyman, along with Clapton and Steve Winwood. Winwood was also involved in the Muddy Waters "London Sessions" LP a year later, along with Rick Grech (ex-Blind Faith), Rory Gallagher and ex-Jimi Hendrix drummer Mitch Mitchell. In the 60s Mike Vernon did a lot of work bringing over and recording older blues artists like Champion Jack Dupree and Otis Spann, who recorded with a lot of these guys and others to do with the UK blues scene.

To get some idea of what it must have felt like for these African Americans to be treated like royalty by white people, it's worth reading Miles Davis' autobiography where he talks about his first visit to Paris and how mindblowing it was to be treated simply with respect.

Whatever beef DG had with Jagger or anyone else, it's unlikely to be based on any kind of bad attitude of Jagger's towards the original artists and music. The most obvious difference between them from this distance is their very contrasting political views, and especially Jagger's unashamed moneymaking. That's what so impressed Rees-Mogg, who tried to persuade his establishment chums that Jagger was anything but a threat to them, but was in fact just the kind of entrepreneurial type that was required to shake up the country. Not much of a rock'n'roll rebel in reality. Alternatively, maybe DG just had an irrational dislike that couldn't be explained properly.

Did DG ever say anything about Rod Stewart?

56 minutes ago, Mickey Finn said:

When Howlin' Wolf recorded his "London Sessions" album for Chess in 1971 he was accompanied by Charlie Watts, Ian Stewart and Bill Wyman, along with Clapton and Steve Winwood. Winwood was also involved in the Muddy Waters "London Sessions" LP a year later, along with Rick Grech (ex-Blind Faith), Rory Gallagher and ex-Jimi Hendrix drummer Mitch Mitchell. In the 60s Mike Vernon did a lot of work bringing over and recording older blues artists like Champion Jack Dupree and Otis Spann, who recorded with a lot of these guys and others to do with the UK blues scene.

To get some idea of what it must have felt like for these African Americans to be treated like royalty by white people, it's worth reading Miles Davis' autobiography where he talks about his first visit to Paris and how mindblowing it was to be treated simply with respect.

Whatever beef DG had with Jagger or anyone else, it's unlikely to be based on any kind of bad attitude of Jagger's towards the original artists and music. The most obvious difference between them from this distance is their very contrasting political views, and especially Jagger's unashamed moneymaking. That's what so impressed Rees-Mogg, who tried to persuade his establishment chums that Jagger was anything but a threat to them, but was in fact just the kind of entrepreneurial type that was required to shake up the country. Not much of a rock'n'roll rebel in reality. Alternatively, maybe DG just had an irrational dislike that couldn't be explained properly.

Did DG ever say anything about Rod Stewart?

With regards to how black artists were treated by Parisians is amazing,they were absolutely idolised.I have a love of the great Josephine Baker,who made Paris here home.On the day of here funeral Paris came to a standstill,there were over 20 thousand partisans lining the streets to bid here farewell. 

Just now, Wheelsville1 said:

With regards to how black artists were treated by Parisians is amazing,they were absolutely idolised.I have a love of the great Josephine Baker,who made Paris here home.On the day of here funeral Paris came to a standstill,there were over 20 thousand partisans lining the streets to bid here farewell. 

Ps I meant to say Parisians. 

On 31/01/2018 at 23:53, maslar said:

1 No, they weren't at school together. the age gap between them is too great. it is of course possible they knew each other although I've never seen any reference to DG in any Stones or Jagger biography. 

2.  Why would Mick Jagger, one of the world's leading pop stars, have to ask Dave Godin to introduce him to Marvin Gaye? Didn't this question spring right out at you?  It's completley absurd and untrue. They'd already ,met backstage at a concert in  the States prior to DGs version of events. They were already on friendly speaking terms. Just as MJ was on friendly terms with James Brown at the same concert.  They didn't need introductions. It wasn't a garden party.

 

If you have been googling you could have also googled the DG wiki....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Godin



 

Edited February 2, 20187 yr by soulski

On 02/02/2018 at 23:52, soulski said:

If you have been googling you could have also googled the DG wiki....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Godin



 

I don't understand the point you're making. I'm aware of the wiki page. It's based on the 1995 Savage interview. I've just looked through that  interview again, the first time in many years, and it's even worse than I remembered it.  

Must say it does seem the DG was telling a few porkies about his stones connections. there is a real age gap between them that damages his credibility in terms of being at school with MJ. 

Nethertheless DG's reputation as a major influence to the introduction of black music to Europe stands firm 

On 04/02/2018 at 18:00, geeselad said:

Must say it does seem the DG was telling a few porkies about his stones connections. there is a real age gap between them that damages his credibility in terms of being at school with MJ. 

Nethertheless DG's reputation as a major influence to the introduction of black music to Europe stands firm 

MJ would have been nine years old when  DG left school at sixteen. Even if he'd stayed on till upper sixth they would have still missed each other.

 

 

Re. Dave Godin going to school with Mick Jagger. I purchased two copies of the fanzine 'The Gospel According to Dave Godin' ( was there any others) a few weeks ago along with some others and have just began reading them this afternoon.

In a lengthy interview, Dave relates that he did go to school with Jagger and goes on to tell a couple of interesting tales around this.

2 minutes ago, SouledTrafford said:

Re. Dave Godin going to school with Mick Jagger. I purchased two copies of the fanzine 'The Gospel According to Dave Godin' ( was there any others) a few weeks ago along with some others and have just began reading them this afternoon.

In a lengthy interview, Dave relates that he did go to school with Jagger and goes on to tell a couple of interesting tales around this.

I think he mixed MJ up with someone else. No other explanation.

Not by this interview, as he mentions walking home from school with him, going to a record shop to pick up an album, having him at his house and sitting in and playing harmonica in a pre Stones jamming session.

On 16/02/2018 at 18:55, SouledTrafford said:

Not by this interview, as he mentions walking home from school with him, going to a record shop to pick up an album, having him at his house and sitting in and playing harmonica in a pre Stones jamming session.

So what? what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

2 hours ago, maslar said:

So what? what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

Not trying to make any point. The topic subject was basically did Dave Godin know/go to school with Mick Jagger and I was simply mentioning what DG had said in an interview that I had just read in an old fanzine.

On 16/02/2018 at 18:23, maslar said:

I think he mixed MJ up with someone else. No other explanation.

I wondered if he knew Brian Jones, who less of an age gap? 

1 hour ago, geeselad said:

I wondered if he knew Brian Jones, who less of an age gap? 

Well he cartainly talks as if he knew him. The Stones were London based then so I don't know.

Actually looking at the interview again he claims 1953 was his start point (hearing Ruth Brown on the jukebox that also had Fats Domino and Smiley Lewis). I'd suggest 1955 would make more sense since all three had UK 45s (inc Mama He Done...)in that year. It also ties in with the start of the jukebox boom in the UK.  If that's the case it would put him at about  19.  I'm pretty sure (without checking) that that was about the time MJ first got into Little Richard. He'd be around 12 or 13.

 

1 hour ago, maslar said:

Well he cartainly talks as if he knew him. The Stones were London based then so I don't know.

Actually looking at the interview again he claims 1953 was his start point (hearing Ruth Brown on the jukebox that also had Fats Domino and Smiley Lewis). I'd suggest 1955 would make more sense since all three had UK 45s (inc Mama He Done...)in that year. It also ties in with the start of the jukebox boom in the UK.  If that's the case it would put him at about  19.  I'm pretty sure (without checking) that that was about the time MJ first got into Little Richard. He'd be around 12 or 13.

 

In the magazine interview he mentions the Ruth Brown record, but gives the fate as 1952. He goes on to say that he knew Jagger well. "I'll tell you the facts. I used to go to school with MJ and to my shame I was the person who introduced him to the music of black America. I remember I'd ordered the Bo Diddley l.p. 'Bo Diddley is a Gunslinger'. I was walking home the same way from school that night I was going to the record shop to collect this record and he was interested and you'll have to come round to hear it some time and he did, and I introduced him to the music."

He goes on to say that the motivating force behind the Stones was a guy called Bobby Beckworth, who was eventually elbowed out. He relates that they started off as something off a jam session at Beckworth's house. Keith Richard is mentioned as being there and Dave says he played the harmonica, learning from records. Jagger couldn't play anything and Dave describes him at the time as being an awful singer.

23 minutes ago, SouledTrafford said:

In the magazine interview he mentions the Ruth Brown record, but gives the fate as 1952. He goes on to say that he knew Jagger well. "I'll tell you the facts. I used to go to school with MJ and to my shame I was the person who introduced him to the music of black America. I remember I'd ordered the Bo Diddley l.p. 'Bo Diddley is a Gunslinger'. I was walking home the same way from school that night I was going to the record shop to collect this record and he was interested and you'll have to come round to hear it some time and he did, and I introduced him to the music."

He goes on to say that the motivating force behind the Stones was a guy called Bobby Beckworth, who was eventually elbowed out. He relates that they started off as something off a jam session at Beckworth's house. Keith Richard is mentioned as being there and Dave says he played the harmonica, learning from records. Jagger couldn't play anything and Dave describes him at the time as being an awful singer.

Bo Diddley's "Gunslinger" came out in 1960. DG would have been 23/24 by then. What school would that be exactly?

Also by that time MJ had been into R&B for years.

Bob Beckwith was one of two guys who joined some already established jam session when they were really all just messing around as schoolboys. The idea he was the the motivating force behind the Stones is completely absurd.

Edited February 19, 20187 yr by maslar

27 minutes ago, maslar said:

Bo Diddley's "Gunslinger" came out in 1960. DG would have been 23/24 by then. What school would that be exactly?

Also by that time MJ had been into R&B for years.

Bob Beckwith was one of two guys who joined some already established jam session when they were really all just messing around as schoolboys. The idea he was the the motivating force behind the Stones is completely absurd.

Seems to be a bit like another of DG's favourite artists 'muddy waters'. Who knows what the correct story is? Only other person mentioned in the Stones part of the interview is someone called David Sted (?) who DG said he was walking home with after Jagger had been singing and he said to him that the singing was awful.