I have noticed a comment which appears to imply that this tune 1967 on Karen and repressed 1969 on Moira was incorrectly credited with writers

The implication is that Curtis Williams wrote the music and Ben Knight the Lyrics

Can someone confirm that this is true please ?

Edited April 9, 20205 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Speeling

The record was released in 1969, if you're looking at the release years on Discogs, those are incorrect. The Karen copies are mispresses with the Karen label used instead of the Moira - look at the release number, M-106 is used on both pressings but is consistent with the Moira cataloging system. 

As for writing credits, I don't have any helpful info to who may not have been included, but the credits are the same on both Karen and Moira issues and promos. 

Also, the name of the song is "Magic Corner" not "Magic Garden". 

1 minute ago, Nick Soule said:

The record was released in 1969, if you're looking at the release years on Discogs, those are incorrect. The Karen copies are mispresses with the Karen label used instead of the Moira - look at the release number, M-106 is used on both pressings but is consistent with the Moira cataloging system. 

As for writing credits, I don't have any helpful info to who may not have been included, but the credits are the same on both Karen and Moira issues and promos. 

Also, the name of the song is "Magic Corner" not "Magic Garden". 

That's cos the missus made me do some gardening.....thanks

I do believe that Karen went broke and Ollie through Atlantic repressed them on Moira 1969 ......interesting that all the sales I have seen say Karen was first

The album "Detroit Gold" lists  Pete Varner only as the writer of "Magic Corner". 

Edited April 9, 20205 yr by The Yank

Can't find any reference of "Magic Corner" before 1969. The single did well on WJLB in Detroit - 

 

Slightly off topic but never the less interesting I have Ben Knights unreleased version of Candy, if you are Facebook friends of mine Richard Gilbert you can hear it on my main page in videos 

About all is the same both baring the same Moira cataloging numeration. Even the pressing plant is the same. Only on the Moira under the logo the studio indication is not featured on Karen makes it "different" AND the 'plug side' feature.

Discogs informations are 'open sources' and so is fed of whatever as well as worthwhile informations. On Discgs it even states that the Karen has a 'misprint' !? This is way too open source for me :)))

Maybe Ollie had a little make up my mind/change my mind/ make up my mind again confusion episode kind of fling for a little while there. The odd bit is that both labels got a demo release for promotional purposes...

Edited April 9, 20205 yr by Tlscapital

the writers match up to be correct, but hey Don Davis put his name on lots of songs but unlikely he had a hand in most of them, 

9 hours ago, Gilly said:

the writers match up to be correct, but hey Don Davis put his name on lots of songs but unlikely he had a hand in most of them, 

This are the actual quotes from 2013

"Magic Corner was the Main Song the A side for Beita Woods.  It ws released twice in 1967  in Detroit.  Ollie Mc Laughlin closed his business declared bankruptcy and when to Atlanta to Stax Records a subsidiary of Atlantic Records. He re-released it in 1969. I'm C Williams nmarcad@aim.com"

"Burrell and Varner did not write Magic Corner their names were put on the record label. 
Ben Knight wrote the lyrics to Magic Corner not Curtis Williams or C Williams on the record. Ben Knight put the words to my (C Williams) music. I was young and was angry at him for something so I did not give him credit for writing Magic Corner. I apologies Ben Knight"

The people on this thread are far far more knowledgable than me so hopefully a conclusion can be reached

Brill mate, ive touched on this subject of miss-truths on day one in my book, similar story to Reet-petite I guess. 

4 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This are the actual quotes from 2013

"Magic Corner was the Main Song the A side for Beita Woods.  It ws released twice in 1967  in Detroit.  Ollie Mc Laughlin closed his business declared bankruptcy and when to Atlanta to Stax Records a subsidiary of Atlantic Records. He re-released it in 1969. I'm C Williams nmarcad@aim.com"

"Burrell and Varner did not write Magic Corner their names were put on the record label. 
Ben Knight wrote the lyrics to Magic Corner not Curtis Williams or C Williams on the record. Ben Knight put the words to my (C Williams) music. I was young and was angry at him for something so I did not give him credit for writing Magic Corner. I apologies Ben Knight"

The people on this thread are far far more knowledgable than me so hopefully a conclusion can be reached

Stax is from Memphis not Atlanta and Ollie had a distribution deal with Atlantic/Atco well before ‘67. Here’s a video of Belita Woods talking a little bit about “Magic Corner”:

She states that the record came out in ‘69. She gets some other information wildly wrong like saying that Motown hadn’t taken off/got big yet by 1969 though, so who knows. 

The claim about the writing credits could be correct, but I still firmly believe that the record only came out in 1969 and that the Karen copies are mispresses - that’s why they carry the Moira catalog number instead a normal Karen number, and that’s why they’re so rare. Also, the label style on the Karen version of “Magic Corner” match up with the labels on Betty Lavette’s “Ticket To The Moon” which was also released in 1969. 

If she spent 20 years with George Clinton i am surprised she remembers her name!!!!

22 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I have noticed a comment which appears to imply that this tune 1967 on Karen and repressed 1969 on Moira was incorrectly credited with writers

The implication is that Curtis Williams wrote the music and Ben Knight the Lyrics

Can someone confirm that this is true please ?

why would karen be first when it has the moira catalogue number.. sorry i jumped in without reading the thread..but moira is first and seeing as theres an issue on karen if anything karen is the 2nd issue

Edited April 10, 20205 yr by Dave Pinch

If Magic Corner was released in 1967 then perhaps the song's writers should be suing the estates of Eugene Record and Sonny Sanders (Soulful Strut/Am I The Same Girl) for copyright infringement ...

It never was recorded in 1967 and never sounded like anything Ollie Produced that year.

It's just me, myself & I kno'iT'all 'cos it's on Karen and it's rare gibberish made up theory... 

With all due respect to those who just forwarded the words thinking it was reliable source.

Spent an evening with Belita one time 1985 at Pat Lewis's house, also there were George Clinton and George McGregor and Sandra Richardson. Belita RIP dressed in tight leather clothing she looked the business, bless 

Both Record World and Cashbox reviewed "Jan Jan" by the Fabulous Counts (Moira #103) in their December 21st, 1968 issues.

It doesn't make much sense for Belita Woods (Moira #106) to have been released 2 years earlier. 

its typical nothern soul folklore..rarer always first..load o bollox really

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

It never was recorded in 1967 and never sounded like anything Ollie Produced that year.

It's just me, myself & I kno'iT'all 'cos it's on Karen and it's rare gibberish made up theory... 

With all due respect to those who just forwarded the words thinking it was reliable source.

This is interesting so you think that the Curtis Williams quote on Discogs (comments section) 13 years ago was maybe A: someone pretending to be him or B: he was mistaken ?

8 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This is interesting so you think that the Curtis Williams quote on Discogs (comments section) 13 years ago was maybe A: someone pretending to be him or B: he was mistaken ?

Open sources source are only that, so no, I'm not implying. Co-composers can be ripped off evidently. Sadly; so if co-composer Curti Williams claims/think/feel he was grugged, that could very well be. But the recording of the tune 'magic corner' was not happening before end 1968 or about.

Sad if true. But so common in the music business as well. Would love to hear an earlier rendition of the same tune if ever. On the other end I'm a sound "consumer" selfish as that may sound. And as a "moral" person I defend justice there while I can. Like on here. Maybe, sometimes...

8 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Open sources source are only that, so no, I'm not implying. Co-composers can be ripped off evidently. Sadly; so if co-composer Curti Williams claims/think/feel he was grugged, that could very well be. But the recording of the tune 'magic corner' was not happening before end 1968 or about.

Sad if true. But so common in the music business as well. Would love to hear an earlier rendition of the same tune if ever. On the other end I'm a sound "consumer" selfish as that may sound. And as a "moral" person I defend justice there while I can. Like on here. Maybe, sometimes...

Is it worth a cheeky email to clarify, a lot of stars have sadly passed on recently and I wonder if anyone knows his status now

YES !

51 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This is interesting so you think that the Curtis Williams quote on Discogs (comments section) 13 years ago was maybe A: someone pretending to be him or B: he was mistaken ?

   I would go with B. There's a few artists who tend to "fluff" their resume.

   I know of a female singer who remade a song from 1964 in 1966 and claims she wrote the song and owns the copyrights 

  to the song on you tube. I'm not going to mention names to spare her from further embarrassment. 

24 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

YES !

 

5 minutes ago, The Yank said:

   I would go with B. There's a few artists who tend to "fluff" their resume.

   I know of a female singer who remade a song from 1964 in 1966 and claims she wrote the song and owns the copyrights 

  to the song on you tube. I'm not going to mention names to spare her from further embarrassment. 

I have emailed him anyway ......here's hoping as I sent him a link of this thread

🤠

I spoke to Moira McLaughlin earlier She's a friend and a Facebook friend and asked her the question about the Karen release, she in turn said I will ask Ira McLaughlin (also a friend) and neither of them are aware that it even came out on anything other than Moira. She had a look at Soul Source btw and has read this thread. I will ask her to become a member if she isn't already, im sure the Forum would welcome her with open arms. 

I am Curtis Williams that Composed The Music to Magic Corner and Wait for me by the Brown bombers. 

This form on Magic corner was sent to my email. I since change my name to Naim Abdur Rauf because now I am a Muslim. 

Magic Corner was 1st released in 1967. I thought I was under The Moira lable. and i tought that it was rereleased in 1969 under the Karen label in Atanta i think. I became a Muslim in 1969 and didn't care about that music. But when into Jazz, an original member  of The jazz group that became Giot Galaxy  and traditional African music. became a Storyteller of African storys music and dance under the name Stories and music of Africa by Naim Abdur Rauf and performed over the tri state area from 1980 to 2002.

As a piano and Organ player i composed many compositions at Tri-Sound recording studio on Hamilton Ave in Highland park Michigan. where i was a studio musician and composer and player the piano and Organ. with Our Band The Soul Partners.

One evening at Tri-Sound while I was playing the piano on one of my compositions Ben Knight started singing to it and came up with the lyrics to Magic corner.  later as Tri-Sound was closing down i as Ben Knight what he wanted to do with Magic Corner he said "I don't care what ever you want to do with it". 

sometimes later Wayne King a writer at Tri-Sound came to me about playing the piano for his neighbor's girlfriend. 

Wayne King then introduced me to his neighbor Petey Varner and is girlfriend Beilta Woods. So i was contracted by Petey Varner to accompany Beilta Woods on some vocal training. I thought that she could sing very good. They had no songs for her yet. Then I thought that Magic corner was a perfect fit for her style of singing. 

so Petey Varner took it to Ollie McLaughlin and the rest was history. But I really didn't like the musical arrangement I has the tune more groovy similar to the feel of the song "Groovin" though it was before "Groovin" . I wanted it smooth but they wanted it speed up. Ollie and Petey were old school at that time and I was 17 and a great dancer. I danced at all the major clubs at that time so i knew the the people wanted but they had the money so that's how Magic corner was recorded and published out.

I think that if was left like I wanted I Magic corner would have been a bigger hit. But that wasn't the will of Allah if it was successful i might have been in a different direction in life.

Oh by the way the reason I didn't give credit to Ben Knight was Haha I had a brick of weed and he stole a lot of weed from me so I was Mad at him. haahaa

Ben Knight use to sing in a group called the Falcons whose members included  Wilson Prickett, Sir Mack Rice, Joe Stubbs (Levi Stubbs lead singer of the Four Tops Brother) and Robert Eaton. Ben And Robert were later additions to the Fortunes 

Welcome on here and thanks for all that Naim. Really appreciates all your insights around and on this peculiar 45 although far from being a favorite of mine. A bit like you maybe 😉 Informative as tasty with 'crunchy' details. Memories are crucial but are often 'tainted' and pictures as written testimonies can confront them and not necessary in the way one can/would/should expect. This is true for each and every soul in the universe.

OK that sounds presumptuous as to implied I would know the universe. But not. Just consider planet earth for the moment 😉 And so all is concretely proving that this 45 was issued late 68 or early 69. Undeniably that is and arguably, such musical production and arrangements to my ears sounds nothing like Ollie McLaughlin did by 1967 or even early 1968. It is really in phase with the rest of his then productions and so studio sessions.

Now as you explain the composition or "making" of the tune (riffs and lyrics also by you) might pre-dates that. The final credentials are often given to the one who laid it on paper last. Unfair as it is said; history is written by the victors. A record release's date is the day it to comes out of the pressing plant. Radios write the date it got dropped in the mail box and the day it reaches a position in the BillBoard Charts is even another date and so on.

This might all seem pretty nerdy, but we are that. A little ? A bit more than that ? Some ? Who cares, we are very enthusiastic and passionate materialistic people who love to own and enjoy our records, the music on them and all that got involved in the making of them. And to go in-depth of all we shy not in front of compromise to challenge our mental or emotional confort and rock our boat for revised history since we know who 'made it'.

5 hours ago, Naim AR said:

Magic Corner was 1st released in 1967. I thought I was under The Moira lable. and i tought that it was rereleased in 1969 under the Karen label in Atanta i think.

If it was released in 1967, it wasn't on Moira. 

The first release on Moira, which is FIVE releases ahead of "Magic Corner", was released/mastered sometime between January and June of 1968. Most discographies say April 1968. 

The release on Moira just ahead of "Magic Corner", #105, was released in April 1969. 

My thoughts on this topic 1 I wouldn't say the song wasn't written in 1967 and there may be a recording of it some where but what you hear from the 45 be it Karen or Moira or the acetate that was sold a few years ago doesn't come over to me as a 67 production more in keeping with a 69 production. If it turns out to be a proven fact that 67 was its recorded year then it was way ahead of its time.

     Compare other 67 releases from any other McLaughlin product or any other Detroit release from that year. Just a few of Popcorns 67 releases like Washed Ashore, GI Joe, I Spy. Maybe food for thought (that isn't a song btw) 

well 1969 was correct because what prevented Magic corner from being number one was two recordings. What does it takes by Jr Walker that held that spot for about 6 weeks and Color him Father by the Winstons was number two. though Magic corner did make a comeback up to number 2 after Color him Father left the number 2 spot but Jr Walker's What does it takes was still number one .now im referring to the R&B charts.

On 11/04/2020 at 18:44, Naim AR said:

well 1969 was correct because what prevented Magic corner from being number one was two recordings. What does it takes by Jr Walker that held that spot for about 6 weeks and Color him Father by the Winstons was number two. though Magic corner did make a comeback up to number 2 after Color him Father left the number 2 spot but Jr Walker's What does it takes was still number one .now im referring to the R&B charts.

Was your Soul Partners group the same group that recorded the Hot Mama/Watch Me Now 45 on Sa-Mo & related to the group that became Al Hudson & The Soul Partners/One Way?