Lots of discussion recently regarding the 'unreal' prices achieved for certain records. Does the price achieved set a new perceived 'market value' - Not in my view, all it tells us is that ONLY ONE PERSON (in the world?) was prepared to pay that price on that day. So in theory if the record (different copy) was auctioned the next day the 2nd highest bidder from the first auction would only have to beat the 3rd highest bidder from the first auction i.e. 1 increment above the figure 3rd highest bidder dropped out.  These 2 now have the record so anyone now wanting to sell a copy is selling to a 'market' most of whom wouldn't pay anything like the first ending auction price. Personally I would look at the auction price where the bulk of bidders dropped out to get some idea of perceived current 'market value' (I didn't watch the recent Cecil auction but that would have been interesting to view). all theoretical I know but that how I look at these auctions.

Surely the artwork we are concerned with is the music itself? Vinyl being the preferred or only medium to carry that work at the time.  I’m sure if CDs and downloads were about in the 60s our world would be very different? 

2 hours ago, Steve G said:

Interesting perspective. I consider myself a serious soul collector (not just northern); been doing it all my adult life, for me it is about owning the original artefact and the historical provenance that goes with it (i.e. someone's hopes and dreams of success, who is the person whose name is written on it, why / how did they buy it, what was the recording session like etc., even what was the label thinking of). It is also about having a collection, like any other type of "collector". Whilst CDs are valuable especially for unissued tracks and when a serious writer is employed for the sleeve notes (some interesting history), to me they will never replace original vinyl. Rarity or the music? As a (mainly) collector who DJs occasionally, I only buy records I like or by artists / producers I collect. But the lure of something different / unknown (and / or rare) is always an attraction I must admit. 

Steve, I like your take on the historical provenance of a piece of vinyl. It's something that is largely ignored.

I have a copy of Walter Jackson's 'That's What Mama Say'.  A printed label on it states ' Mrs Jeannette Jackson' and a Detroit Michigan address.  I'd love to think it was his mother's copy of the song he recorded about her. Probably not, and I haven't managed to find out, but it struck me when I first saw it in a sales box and means more to me because of that possibility.

- Kev

 

4 hours ago, Okehdownsouth said:

For me being rare is defined by demand and how many are really available to buy and what condition they are in. 

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I believe that "rare" and  "in demand" are two different things. Cecil Washington is clearly in demand but it isn't rare.

On the other hand, there are plenty of genuinely rare records - ie not many pressed up and even fewer in circulation now, that no one wants and are thus not in any demand at all..

John

 

19 minutes ago, Johndelve said:

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I believe that "rare" and  "in demand" are two different things. Cecil Washington is clearly in demand but it isn't rare.

On the other hand, there are plenty of genuinely rare records - ie not many pressed up and even fewer in circulation now, that no one wants and are thus not in any demand at all..

John

 

What I would love to know is a rough consensus as to how many copies, presumably pressed and not destroyed = rare?

13 hours ago, Tomangoes said:

Vitriol? Nay, banter.

Most comments are based on value estimations from numerous sources compared with specific auction results.

Some are deemed over priced, some a fair price, and some a bargain.

But "the correct" valuation is never going to be the same for everybody.

A single unused stamp sold at auction this week for probably more than if the top 1000 rare soul records went up as a job lot, so we do have to put it into perspective!

Ed

There is an unused Penny Black stamp being auctioned soon at Sotheby's with a pre sale estimate of £6.000.000 (yes six million!!) for a tiny stamp.

As records are much more fun than stamps, is that where its going?????  

1 minute ago, Soulsearch said:

There is an unused Penny Black stamp being auctioned soon at Sotheby's with a pre sale estimate of £6.000.000 (yes six million!!) for a tiny stamp.

As records are much more fun than stamps, is that where its going?????  

I'ts easy to say but I'd hope I'd try and do some good instead if I had that sort of spare cash.  At least with a picasso I could sit and look at it but some little  boring square, it's beyond my comprehension.

1 minute ago, Soulman58 said:

I'ts easy to say but I'd hope I'd try and do some good instead if I had that sort of spare cash.  At least with a picasso I could sit and look at it but some little  boring square, it's beyond my comprehension.

Agree - but you can also look at a stamp though?  Very exciting TBH  

On 27/10/2021 at 08:24, Steve G said:

2) Record collecting is more popular than it has ever been, despite the old boys saying it is dying out / will be over in 10 years. Genres that you couldn't give away decades ago, now fetching high prices. Some records that were in demand now badly out of fashion, others massively "in". And of course soul collecting is now global, not largely limited to callow youth in a record bar in the UK. Linked to this the advent of the "trophy record" which transcends trends and the people that crave them. Del Larks, Salvadors, Eddie Parker we all know 'em.

3) You absolutely can compare records to stamp collecting and other forms of collecting from football cards to enamel signs to comics, especially the genuinely rare records (not the "dozens of copy" records that people keep saying are "very rare" like Cecil W, Sam Dees etc. which are not rare). Aligned to that is a lack of knowledge amongst some collectors. No real idea of what is rare and what was about in quantity and therefore by definition no compass to guide them. At this point if something is genuinely rare, it is unlikely more copies will surface. Not impossible, but increasingly unlikely. Look at the amount of crap on eBay, discogs etc.

 

 

 

 

Hit the nail on the head there. I never collected soul - used to buy Kent albums in the 80's but only because you got more tunes for your money, I didn't particularly look after them either. 

It turns out though that I did collect records in other genres, and a hell of a lot of stuff I bought mail-order or in small specialist record shops in the 80's and 90's for well under a tenner is now in the high teens and hundreds. Now rare-ish records I bough in the Virgin megastore for £6.99 are sometimes fetching £100 +. Collectors mainly seem to be in the US and Japan but also all over Europe and I guess at the time they had no access to this stuff.

The only regret I have is how much stuff in the 90's I part-exed or sold to friends usually for beer money! And being a relative youngster I was seduced by CD's and stopped buying any vinyl around 91.

Edited October 28, 20213 yr by Timillustrator

On 27/10/2021 at 06:50, Okehdownsouth said:

Stamps! I thought that this was a forum about soul music and record values, shall we now start discussing the crazy prices that some people are paying for houses?

I was thinking it's very similar to the housing market. Where previously houses would be set sale, estate agents decided to auction them since demand was outstripping supply. Everybody could've played it cool and decided to just keep paying the "set sale" price, but instead decided they were happy to pay 10% over the asking price and so it kept on fuelling itself. The only reason house prices have doubled is because people with spare savings decided that's what they wanted to spend their money on. Of course, the people who bought property 20 or 30 years ago can still buy and sell - in essence, they're only spending what they paid back then. So... basically the same as records?

I agree, and just like when the 2008 recession hit there will be a massive price correction because people will no longer have the means to pay the inflated prices.

14 minutes ago, Okehdownsouth said:

I agree, and just like when the 2008 recession hit there will be a massive price correction because people will no longer have the means to pay the inflated prices.

Some will still have the means, but there will potentially be less bidders.

Agree but that will lead eventually to lower prices and not just for records. I don't want to expand this into a debate about the impending economic doom that is likely to hit us very soon, so I will call it a day and leave this topic now.

3 hours ago, Okehdownsouth said:

I agree, and just like when the 2008 recession hit there will be a massive price correction because people will no longer have the means to pay the inflated prices.

My thoughts exactly the "bursting bubble"