Do these record cleaning machines take the gloss shine off records they clean and leave them looking with a dull matt appearance?

I have noticed a number of 45rpm records I have had recently look in good condition, but have the same dull look to the vinyl. It looks like the shine had been taken off the vinyl, as though it's been buffed matt with something. Are these machines doing this?

Edited August 10, 20231 yr by Solidsoul

1 hour ago, Solidsoul said:

Do these record cleaning machines take the gloss shine off records they clean and leave them dull?

I have noticed a number of 45rpm records I have had recently look in good condition, but have the same dull look to the vinyl. It looks like the shine had been taken off the vinyl, as though it's been buffed matt with something. Are these machines doing this?

Most 'record cleaning' machines using fluids shan't leave such a 'mat veil' but you never know what additive one's adding in their cleaning solution... And if ever the vacuum or drying finish is completed properly. Mind you some record's plastic polymer sleeves are with time deteriorating the record's surfaces in such manner. Physic phenomenon molecule swap and alteration.

Still those plastic polymer sleeves were mostly and commonly used for LP's. Less commonly used on 7". Finally ultraviolet rays (sunshine exposition) will inflict such symptoms. Then last and hopefully least some 'crooks' techniques consisting by 'sanding' the groove surface of rare dee-jay records to eliminate marks and scratches to such kind of visual effect too.

12 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

Do these record cleaning machines take the gloss shine off records they clean and leave them looking with a dull matt appearance?

I have noticed a number of 45rpm records I have had recently look in good condition, but have the same dull look to the vinyl. It looks like the shine had been taken off the vinyl, as though it's been buffed matt with something. Are these machines doing this?

They have been skimmed, or polished. A disgusting practice, where knackered records have the surface removed with a light abrasive surface while being spun.

I’ve had loads over the years. I just send them back straight away. 

I have a pro-ject cleaning machine and it does the opposite of making a record dull, it can turn a dirty old record with years of caked in dust to a shiny surface. Use 90% distilled water and 10% isopropyl alcohol. Turns crackly records into perfect players way beyond anything I’ve ever managed by hand. I’ve thought of upgrading a record and then cleaned it and realised there’s nothing wrong with it, just needed to get years of gunk out that you can’t even see.

It does sound like yours have been skimmed. I knew a guy that used to T-Cut records and sell them, looked great but sounded terrible, bought off him once and got my money back pronto.

8 hours ago, Quinvy said:

They have been skimmed, or polished. A disgusting practice, where knackered records have the surface removed with a light abrasive surface while being spun.

I’ve had loads over the years. I just send them back straight away. 

 

7 hours ago, Sutty said:

It does sound like yours have been skimmed. I knew a guy that used to T-Cut records and sell them, looked great but sounded terrible, bought off him once and got my money back pronto.

What I refer to as 'sanding' but 'skimmed' or 'T-Cut' can also be descriptive qualifications if ever as I can't guess better the 'technique' at play being used to achieve such result. But it does 'flat out' to top groove surface and seem to eliminate most scratches but the technique also polishes the inner groove some !

On "solid" vinyl pressings such technique can make the playback experience with such records sound a bit 'thin' (weak on bass) with mushy high and mid frequencies. But with no too little 'snaps, crackles and pops'. Have also heard such treatments on styrene pressings and they didn't sound even 'as good' or if ever worse.

Is a dishwasher not a good idea , has lots of slots for records where the plates normally go. 12inch in bottom and 7 inch in top racking.  And you have a filter to catch the labels . 

I'm just being a bit bored but wondering if anyone has ever tried it though 🤔 

15 hours ago, Greedy Mick said:

Is a dishwasher not a good idea , has lots of slots for records where the plates normally go. 12inch in bottom and 7 inch in top racking.  And you have a filter to catch the labels . 

I'm just being a bit bored but wondering if anyone has ever tried it though 🤔 

😂 Err.. the water will be way too hot and could cause warping, the cleaning liquid too abrasive, and the labels will come off, but apart from that you could be onto a winner! lol

20 hours ago, Greedy Mick said:

Is a dishwasher not a good idea , has lots of slots for records where the plates normally go. 12inch in bottom and 7 inch in top racking.  And you have a filter to catch the labels . 

I'm just being a bit bored but wondering if anyone has ever tried it though 🤔 

Mick why don’t you give it a go, and report back, I foresee some interesting results. 🙂 

On 11/08/2023 at 17:53, Greedy Mick said:

Is a dishwasher not a good idea , has lots of slots for records where the plates normally go. 12inch in bottom and 7 inch in top racking.  And you have a filter to catch the labels . 

I'm just being a bit bored but wondering if anyone has ever tried it though 🤔 

I'm not trusting my wife with any of my records.

I am a big advocate of a good quality record cleaning machine, because a good one used properly really does work. There are loads available at a huge range of prices, as usual the cheaper ones don't do such a good job, the best are the twin head was vaccum types of the really expesvie ultr sonic machines.

I really annoys me that there are so many people out there with huge and extremely valuable records collections who never clean their reocrds and play them on crap turntables that are destroying their records. I have visited a few of the top dealers and have stood and watched them play and record records worth thousands on shitty turntable that cost less than £150 with a 10 year old stylus! and this is mirrored all over the country by people who do not see the worth in investing in a decent turntable, a cartridge and cleaning machine.

4 hours ago, Okehdownsouth said:

I am a big advocate of a good quality record cleaning machine, because a good one used properly really does work. There are loads available at a huge range of prices, as usual the cheaper ones don't do such a good job, the best are the twin head was vaccum types of the really expesvie ultr sonic machines.

I really annoys me that there are so many people out there with huge and extremely valuable records collections who never clean their reocrds and play them on crap turntables that are destroying their records. I have visited a few of the top dealers and have stood and watched them play and record records worth thousands on shitty turntable that cost less than £150 with a 10 year old stylus! and this is mirrored all over the country by people who do not see the worth in investing in a decent turntable, a cartridge and cleaning machine.

This fits in with my own personal findings, and it’s not just confined to dealers either. The decks and PA at many events is also either of terrible quality, or badly set up. Makes me cringe thinking of the damage being done to some incredibly rare vinyl, and to peoples hearing.

Thanks for the good replies on this topic.

The thing I am getting at is not knackered records that have been skimmed etc to pass them off as decent copies. But if relatively good condition records that are put into some of these machines, are coming out with the gloss shine taken off them and appearing with a hazey/matt effect? They play great, but don't have the original look to the vinyl. I have noticed this happening more in the last few years and wondered why this is could be!

Edited August 26, 20231 yr by Solidsoul

5 hours ago, Quinvy said:

This fits in with my own personal findings, and it’s not just confined to dealers either. The decks and PA at many events is also either of terrible quality, or badly set up. Makes me cringe thinking of the damage being done to some incredibly rare vinyl, and to peoples hearing.

I don't go to many soul nights at all but am still a pretty avid collectors and have been for more that 50 years. I have been asked if I could bring along some records and do a spot at some local nights but have a mate who did it and came home with 60 grands worth of knackered records because the turntables were so bad and now won't play on his decent turntable. I have no idea why people with collections worth hundreds of thousands can't bring themsleves to buy a decent hifi and learn how to set it up properly. Since I bought my cleaning machine I hear things on records that I have never heard before.

2 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

Thanks for the good replies on this topic.

The thing I am getting at is not knackered records that have been skimmed etc to pass them off as decent copies. But if relatively good condition records that are put into some of these machines, are coming out with the gloss shine taken off them and appearing with a hazey/matt effect? They play great, but don't have the original look to the vinyl. I have noticed this happening more in the last few years and wondered why this is could be!

I agree, there are lots of very unscrupulous sellers out there peddling crap for big money and are very reluctant to refund buyers because the records look almost mint. I argued for weeks with one a could of year ago and he only refunded me when I got a mate to buy another record from him and found it to be the same. So I threatened to out him on here and posted a note about buying record that look great but play crap.

Moving on with this topic, I just saw this on ebay. Just read the coments by the twat who is selling these records!!!!!!.  Suffice to say that I will NOT be bidding.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374892067155?hash=item57494ef953%3Ag%3AZ6IAAOSwUHNk4kRb&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336393618&customid=&toolid=10049

19 minutes ago, Okehdownsouth said:

Moving on with this topic, I just saw this on ebay. Just read the coments by the twat who is selling these records!!!!!!.  Suffice to say that I will NOT be bidding.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374892067155?hash=item57494ef953%3Ag%3AZ6IAAOSwUHNk4kRb&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336393618&customid=&toolid=10049

I think you'll find that most of the records out there from the 60s and 70s spent their 'early lives' being played on record players just like that or simple Dansettes , were 'stored' in boxes without sleeves in teenagers bedrooms and generally abused.

They were 40c cheap plastic throwaway items essentially , not something that required kid gloves and treating like a piece of precious chinese porcelain.

30 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

I think you'll find that most of the records out there from the 60s and 70s spent their 'early lives' being played on record players just like that or simple Dansettes , were 'stored' in boxes without sleeves in teenagers bedrooms and generally abused.

They were 40c cheap plastic throwaway items essentially , not something that required kid gloves and treating like a piece of precious chinese porcelain.

Earlier today went to a local car boot sale , came across a 100 box with flip lid and still quite tidy , on opening my heart was pumping a little faster and then amazing , all from 63 to 76 all mint with sleeves , 7x Ken Dodd , 5 x New Seekers , Val Donican , Pat Boone , Tammy Wynette etc etc . 2 for 50p I offered £9. For the lot plus the box , the couple said ok ,on the way home emptied all the sleeves into the box the Vinyl into a carrier bag and straight into the local Happy Staffie. 

Have you seen the price of original sleeves these days and the old single boxes lol 

13 hours ago, Okehdownsouth said:

Moving on with this topic, I just saw this on ebay. Just read the coments by the twat who is selling these records!!!!!!.  Suffice to say that I will NOT be bidding.

Don't be too harsh on that seller. He's clearly not into records going by it's somewhat minimalistic gradings if ever and description in playback. To play records on such small 'kids' pick-ups ONCE or TWICE is not necessarily harmful as you might think. The stylus factor on damaging grooves are so rarely well understood and mostly surrounded by beliefs and myths.

If the stylus is in fair shape one should be fine. These are always conicals so alignement is not so crucial. Large cut so the heavy VTF to ensure better tracking is not damaging to the record's groove either. What is stylus groove damaging is other cuts of stylus tip (elliptic, fine line...) not well aligned, thiner tip with too little or too much VTF and broken tips.

Even a well aligned properly VTF set but worn stylus (especially nude because bonded will leave the alloy to be in contact with the groove at one time) shouldn't harm the groove too bad. And if a stylus is worn that far one will hear at one time either the cantilever in the groove or the alloy bond onto which the diamond was... It sounds terrible really.

What is terrible with this careless dee-jay gear first is indeed the state of the styluses there. Dirty like what, not one knows in what condition they are  because everything in these phono stages are crap. So even with new styluses the rest sounds like crap. I always have my headshells, cartridges and stylus when I dee-jay out. Requiring some set-ups.

But worth my records and admiringly always an improvement in playback to these Ortofon OM's. Now this copy of Cajun Hart seems to have surface marks from being sleeveless. And the groove shows what could be 'grey grooves' typical of Juke-Boxes wear. If that's the case the groove can be irremediably damaged with hisses and distortions.

Edited August 27, 20231 yr by Tlscapital

4 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

Thanks for the good replies on this topic.

The thing I am getting at is not knackered records that have been skimmed etc to pass them off as decent copies. But if relatively good condition records that are put into some of these machines, are coming out with the gloss shine taken off them and appearing with a hazey/matt effect? They play great, but don't have the original look to the vinyl. I have noticed this happening more in the last few years and wondered why this is could be!

Well I don’t know what’s happening there then. When I clean records they end up sparkling.

1 hour ago, Okehdownsouth said:

Moving on with this topic, I just saw this on ebay. Just read the coments by the twat who is selling these records!!!!!!.  Suffice to say that I will NOT be bidding.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374892067155?hash=item57494ef953%3Ag%3AZ6IAAOSwUHNk4kRb&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336393618&customid=&toolid=10049

Yup, seen loads of dealers using those.

17 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Don't be too harsh on that seller. He's clearly not into records going by it's somewhat minimalistic gradings if ever and description in playback. To play records on such small 'kids' pick-ups is not necessarily harmful as you might think. The stylus factor on damaging grooves are so rarely well understood and mostly surrounded by beliefs and myths.

If the stylus is in fair shape one should be fine. These are always conicals so alignement is not so crucial. Large cut so the heavy VTF to ensure better tracking is not damaging to the record's groove either. What is stylus groove damaging is other cuts of stylus tip (elliptic, fine line...) not well aligned, thiner tip with too little or too much VTF and broken tips.

Even a well aligned properly VTF set but worn stylus (especially nude because bonded will leave the alloy to be in contact with the groove at one time) shouldn't harm the groove too bad. And if a stylus is worn that far one will hear at one time either the cantilever in the groove or the alloy bond onto which the diamond was... It sounds terrible really.

What is terrible with this careless dee-jay gear first is indeed the state of the styluses there. Dirty like what, not one knows in what condition they are  because everything in these phono stages are crap. So even with new styluses the rest sounds like crap. I always have my headshells, cartridges and stylus when I ddee-jay out. Requiring some set-ups.

But worth my records and admiringly always an improvement in playback to these Ortofon OM's. Now this copy of Cajun Hart seems to have surface marks from being sleeveless. And the groove shows what could be 'grey grooves' typical of Juke-Boxes wear. If that's the case the groove can be irremediably damaged with hisses and distortions.

How the heck do you change the carts/head shells and set them up, at an event?

It’s dark, and you’ve only got three minutes max?

11 hours ago, Quinvy said:

How the heck do you change the carts/head shells and set them up, at an event?

It’s dark, and you’ve only got three minutes max?

I'm the champ ! Ask anyone... Watching me doing it with angst ! Plus my MONO dee-jay styluses / cartridges are of very low compliance and so also requires to add weight (50p coins on blutak) on the counterweight and tonearm tubes sometimes to balance it all to reach 3 grams plus for VTF ! Yes I know I rule ! 🤠

Edited August 27, 20231 yr by Tlscapital

2.5 max for weight and VTF! Everything above that will cause wear to your records sooner or later.

2 hours ago, Okehdownsouth said:

 I have been asked if I could bring along some records and do a spot at some local nights but have a mate who did it and came home with 60 grands worth of knackered records because the turntables were so bad and now won't play on his decent turntable.

So goes to a local night , spins twenty £3000 records in a spot and ruins them all with one play .................

 

 

11 hours ago, Benji said:

2.5 max for weight and VTF! Everything above that will cause wear to your records sooner or later.

No not with large conical or elliptical stylus on low compliant cartridges / styluses. By the late sixties and through the seventies with the myth of high compliant cartridges and low VTF anything above 1.5 VTF was considered a sinful groove destroyer... So where's the limit ? You get those lab tests done that one day tell you one thing and the next day another one.

There's just too much going on to make one rule for every stylus and every record in every application to make one factual best way to play any sort of record the best way without wearing them too much (?). I've heard and seen rare singles played on good phonos gear sounding just like muck. Definitely not to enjoy them one bit. Worthless wear IMO.

Playing record is wearing them any which way you do it. So if you play them (not all do) play them right and get the best with the most out of them for fair wear at least. Then tracking is crucial and at 45 rpm it works differently than on 33. On loud & rough 7" differently than on quiet & refined 12". My home cart takes 2 to 4 VTF. Sounds best set at 3. 

Edited August 27, 20231 yr by Tlscapital

The only thing I can think of is to play bootlegs and re-pressings and totally ignore the ovo policy.  Maybe download anything and everything and when someone requests it plug the relevant memory stick in lol. 

No worn out records and not worried about light fingers helping themselves to your records.  And you can play the original joe90 on casino classics without worries of the weight of the stylus 🙃

 

Edited August 27, 20231 yr by Greedy Mick
Spelling

16 hours ago, Quinvy said:

How the heck do you change the carts/head shells and set them up, at an event?

It’s dark, and you’ve only got three minutes max?

Have seen one dj with his own cartridges set up one whilst last record of previous set is playing,  eg weight etc then once he has started playing his 1st record do the same thing for his 2nd spin and at end of his set he does the reverse and as his last but one spin finishes he swaps them back and again after last record finishes leaving very very little time for the next dj

1 hour ago, Greedy Mick said:

Have seen one dj with his own cartridges set up one whilst last record of previous set is playing,  eg weight etc then once he has started playing his 1st record do the same thing for his 2nd spin and at end of his set he does the reverse and as his last but one spin finishes he swaps them back and again after last record finishes leaving very very little time for the next dj

I only ever saw this happen once, and I won’t mention the person’s name, because his set was totally ruined by the tone arms constantly jumping on the  records.

Used to use my own cartridges when dj-ing for many years. Changing/setting them up only takes a few seconds.

3 hours ago, Quinvy said:

I only ever saw this happen once, and I won’t mention the person’s name, because his set was totally ruined by the tone arms constantly jumping on the  records.

Understanding of it all (tonearm effective mass combined with different cartridge / headshell weight and cantilever compliance) tweaked if necessary to be able to counter balance the tonearm if ever (my 50p coins on blutak) then to adjust VTF, anti-skate and VTA eventually is all also critical for proper tracking !

Yes I've seen cartridges 'jumping' at do's and even got it myself with cartridge's cantilever's compliance shot? But also got it from 'suspended floors' bias. because dee-jay's booth leveling, 'anchoring' and insulation from floor 'rumble' is also IMO too often seriously overlooked and problematic at 'cheap' do's mostly. 

Edited August 27, 20231 yr by Tlscapital

20 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

So goes to a local night , spins twenty £3000 records in a spot and ruins them all with one play .................

 

 

Before you accuse me of lying please would you read the other comments on this and then you might realise the importance of setting up a turntable properly. There are a lot of people who support my comments which proves that there is truth in what I am saying. By all mean continue playing your record on crap equipement that it not set up properly, it may not ruin them in one play but they will quickly deteriorate.

You could try one of these low tech options, don't know where it came from found it whilst clearing stuff. Tried it on an old 60s pop record, didn't make any difference whatsoever. 

That thing would not be let anywhere near any of my records. It looks like one of the things from the 1970's for removing fluff from suit jackets!

52 minutes ago, Okehdownsouth said:

removing fluff from suit jackets!

It's exactly like that, when I took it out of the box I expected the tape to have perished like masking tape does after time but rolling a couple of inch off the barrel the surface was still very sticky. Rolling it over the pop record made no difference,no trace of anything on the roller, maybe when new the tape was a tad more spongy, still wouldn't want to try it on any of mine either. 

Classic 1970’s Ronco....currently on eBay at £25.00....wonder if it actually does a good job ....

I highly recommend this: https://www.knosti.de/shop/en/vinyl/30/disco-antistat-record-cleaning-unit?c=14

Been using it for many many years. Very good results. The liquid is meant to be used a couple of times. They charge a lot for refill bottle of the liquid but you can easily mix the liquid yourself with ingredients you get at your local chemist cheap.

On 31/08/2023 at 22:04, Benji said:

I highly recommend this: https://www.knosti.de/shop/en/vinyl/30/disco-antistat-record-cleaning-unit?c=14

Been using it for many many years. Very good results. The liquid is meant to be used a couple of times. They charge a lot for refill bottle of the liquid but you can easily mix the liquid yourself with ingredients you get at your local chemist cheap.

This type of machine is certainly better than a lot of the crazy options that people have dreamt up, just remember to use distilled water, change the solution regularly and keep the brushes clean and this will do a reasonable job, and it's cheap!