Royal Mail refusing to honour insurance - thoughts/advice?

[Paraboliccurve]

I sell (and buy) a lot of records.

Only ever had to claim twice - once for a record that disappeared en route, and recently for one which arrived cracked.

It was only a copy of Cashing In, but still.

I had sent it guaranteed next day with standard insurance (I can't remember but I think you're automatically covered up to £750 - doesn't matter anyway, I had declared the value at £75, which is what I'd sold it for, and it was clearly well within the standard insurance figure).

Well-packaged, the same as they always are - hence I've never needed to claim for a breakage before.

Royal Mail have simply refused to honour the insurance (in two emails).

They haven't even explained why, which is almost as aggravating as the refusal.

I am of course escalating this claim, and if necessary I'll go to the small claims court, just on principle, but I wondered what experience others had had?

 

 

[Modern Man]

On the odd occasion I’ve had to make a claim I’ve never had a problem as I always make sure I use an adequate service with the correct compensation level for the value of the item and always keep the posting receipt for a couple of years to avoid possible Paypal “charge back” scam claims etc.

Can’t see the problem here. So long as you have the original posting receipt Royal Mail should honour the claim provided that you have filled in the claim form correctly and provided the standard details they ask for such as photographs of the damaged item etc.

Should you have to take them to the small claims court it’s highly likely they won’t defend the action due to the costs involved for them and even if they did you should win as long as you can show you have followed a correct line of procedure. Good luck hope you get your money back. 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Modern Man
Spelling error

[Mal C]

Yeah good luck we all hope you get your money back, lert's face it RM are a bunch of crooks, that hasnt changed... they should have their Royal patronage taken off them after everything they have done to their service and employees.

[Paraboliccurve]

23 minutes ago, Modern Man said:

On the odd occasion I’ve had to make a claim I’ve never had a problem as I always make sure I use an adequate service with the correct compensation level for the value of the item and always keep the posting receipt for a couple of years to avoid possible Paypal “charge back” scam claims etc.

Can’t see the problem here. So long as you have the original posting receipt Royal Mail should honour the claim provided that you have filled in the claim form correctly and provided the standard details they ask for such as photographs of the damaged item etc.

Should you have to take them to the small claims court it’s highly likely they won’t defend the action due to the costs involved for them and even if they did you should win as long as you can show you have followed a correct line of procedure. Good luck hope you get your money back. 

Yes, I always post anything worth more than £50 Special Delivery Next Day Guaranteed by 1pm for precisely this reason.
 

(Anything more than £1k I courier or even hand deliver if close enough.)

I can't see the problem either - I'm mystified actually.

I could easily claim more than £75 for a NM Cashing In, too - I'm simply claiming what I sold it for, not the likely replacement cost (I don't need a replacement).

I'm familiar with the way the courts operate and I doubt it will come to it but I'm quite prepared to go that far if necessary. 
 

I can only assume they're under some sort of directive designed to fob off the less determined - the process certainly appears to become more laborious as you progress through the various tiers, which I assume is by design. 

[Blackpoolsoul]

18 hours ago, Paraboliccurve said:

Yes, I always post anything worth more than £50 Special Delivery Next Day Guaranteed by 1pm for precisely this reason.
 

(Anything more than £1k I courier or even hand deliver if close enough.)

I can't see the problem either - I'm mystified actually.

I could easily claim more than £75 for a NM Cashing In, too - I'm simply claiming what I sold it for, not the likely replacement cost (I don't need a replacement).

I'm familiar with the way the courts operate and I doubt it will come to it but I'm quite prepared to go that far if necessary. 
 

I can only assume they're under some sort of directive designed to fob off the less determined - the process certainly appears to become more laborious as you progress through the various tiers, which I assume is by design. 

As with most companies nowadays the message is cascaded down. "Put them off and we will chance they will give up".  Stick to your guns and claim for your time as well, time is valuable.

[Paul Capon]

The problem I’ve had is Royal Mail demand proof of value not the sales price. How many of us have receipts for every records you own…..

In all the years I’ve only had to make 5 or 6  claims. The most recent was a few weeks ago for a £5.50 George Benson 45 that never arrived. I refunded the buyer and made a claim on principle rather than for the money and to RM’s credit they sent me a cheque inc postage. 

[Soul16]

12 hours ago, Paul Capon said:

The problem I’ve had is Royal Mail demand proof of value not the sales price. How many of us have receipts for every records you own…..

Interesting, is not a sale price essentially proof of value?

Royal Mail recently lost a 45 I sold on ebay - sale price was £65. I filed a claim and I sent them a screenshot of the sale price. This figure was accepted as proof of value.

Buyer got a refund, I lose a record and I'm now wondering where these 'lost' items disappear to... It was clearly labelled up with a return address too.

[Paraboliccurve]

49 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

Interesting, is not a sale price essentially proof of value?

Royal Mail recently lost a 45 I sold on ebay - sale price was £65. I filed a claim and I sent them a screenshot of the sale price. This figure was accepted as proof of value.

Buyer got a refund, I lose a record and I'm now wondering where these 'lost' items disappear to... It was clearly labelled up with a return address too.

Sale price in and of itself is pretty much irrelevant if it comes down to a court case - otherwise the potential for fraud is very real.

For instance, I agree with you to sell you a pressing with a realistic value of £5 for £500, it 'arrives broken' (because you stamp on it after receiving it), I claim, we split the £500.

(I hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas - this would be a serious criminal conspiracy.)

Value in something like a record would be established by data from popsike, discogs, and possibly an expert or two eg Manship. Sale price would be supporting evidence.

By the way, they are still refusing to pay, which is absurd.

I had two more emails yesterday, both of them confirming that they're not prepared to honour their insurance, the meat of which is as follows.

First email:

To claim compensation for damaged items, you need to provide evidence of a transaction taking place, if sold on eBay this needs to be the final sale page.  Evidence of the original packaging including the internal packaging and external packaging showing the postage label in full.  I note from your claim this was not provided.
 
If you’re able to provide evidence of a transaction or refund taking place and evidence showing the original packaging, I’ll be happy to reassess your claim.

My response to this email was as follows:

1. This is the first I was told of this 'requirement', which does not appear on the original claim form. I can of course provide such evidence - of £75 plus money for postage being transferred to me by the original purchaser of the record and then of my reimbursement of the same to him when it arrived broken.

2. But it is anyway nonsensical. I purchased insurance from the Post Office for the transportation of a record, and they damaged the record in transit. It doesn't make any difference whether I was sending it as a purchased item, or a gift, or just as a curiosity for the recipient to (I dunno) DJ with and then send back to me. I appreciate this last scenario is unlikely, but it's not impossible, and I introduced it merely as a way of demonstrating tnat the insurance I paid for was entirely unrelated to the reasons for my sending the record (or anything else).

Anyway, while I was digesting that piece of nonsense I received a second response:

I’m sorry to advise you that having inspected the packaging of your item, the contents wouldn’t have been sufficiently protected and as such I’m unable to take any further action in this matter.  More information on our packaging guidelines can be found at www.royalmail.com/packaging. Specifically the section for Records (Vinyl discs).

Obviously, she hasn't 'inspected the packaging', only the photographs I submitted with my original claim. The packaging was exactly the same as I always use - namely, four stiff thick pieces of cardboard, two either side of the record, which is itself in a further cardboard sleeve.

This is way stronger than any mailer Post Office sells, and I've sent hundreds of records out in that manner (and received many in similar style) with no previous damage. This by definition means it is suitable for post.

Her link to www.royalmail.com/packaging and the section for Records gives 'guidance'.

The guidance is as follows:

Place between thick card and surround with cushioning material at least 2.5cm longer than the item. Wrap in strong paper, seal with tape and clearly mark package RECORDS - DO NOT BEND.

It also says (in a general preamble): Please follow these guidelines to make sure your eligibility for compensation isn't affected if the item doesn't arrive as expected.

I expect this is ultimately what they will try to hide behind - my packaging was absolutely fine for purpose, but I didn't follow this to the letter (because I'd never read the guidance before, I don't suppose many of us have?).

However, as I say, it is guidance - if they said it was mandatory that might be different - and these guidelines have never been stipulated as conditional to me by any Post Office employee (ie they've never said to me 'This record is inappropriately packaged and does not meet our guidance which is a condition of our accepting this contract'), nor have they refused to take my money because I don't quite meet the guidelines

So I think I'm on fairly strong legal ground - it will probably come down to proving the value of the record (£75 is well within any margin of error) and proving that my packaging was of sufficient quality that I had a reasonable expectation that the record would arrive in good condition.

But this is food for thought, at least.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paraboliccurve]

13 hours ago, Paul Capon said:

The problem I’ve had is Royal Mail demand proof of value not the sales price. How many of us have receipts for every records you own…..

In all the years I’ve only had to make 5 or 6  claims. The most recent was a few weeks ago for a £5.50 George Benson 45 that never arrived. I refunded the buyer and made a claim on principle rather than for the money and to RM’s credit they sent me a cheque inc postage. 

Re value Paul see my reply below - they pretty much have to go on 'value', and that definitely isn't just about the price you personally paid (often years earlier), but it's an interesting point. I always get asked to declare a value when posting,

[Wiggyflat]

I sent a record registered

...arrived cracked....claimed online ...they wanted proof.Tje photos I uploaded were not good enough I sent them the cracked record and the packaging which I luckily got back.Took months and months and I had to threaten them with the small claims court.It is a war of attrition.

[6T's Mojoman]

I don't sell many records, but i've had a similar problems of a record arriving broken to a customer in Germany, one posted the same day to Portugal took longer to arrive but was intact. I used the same packing in both parcels & sent all the details they required, proof of purchase etc. photo's from the customer of the packing & broken record & heard nothing. I phones them on several occasions for an update only to be told "I'll look into it for you" The final time about 3 months later the P.O. guy I spoke to said "I think you've waited long enough" and I got a refund within a few days. I think they deliberately do nothing & hope you give up, I had to pester virtually weekly at the end to get a result, don't give up that's what they are hoping for. I no longer send abroad, as I don't think the risk is worth all the hassle if there are problems .

Good Luck

[Paraboliccurve]

34 minutes ago, 6T's Mojoman said:

I think they deliberately do nothing & hope you give up, I had to pester virtually weekly at the end to get a result, don't give up that's what they are hoping for. I no longer send abroad, as I don't think the risk is worth all the hassle if there are problems .

Good Luck

Cheers. I think this is right. I've almost no doubt - even allowing for the vagaries of the county court - that I'm on strong legal ground, so I assume they'll settle before it gets to that. But I'm going to ask for an hour of my time to be paid for as well now, and warn them that more time will become chargeable thereafter

[Sheep]

On 14/07/2024 at 11:40, Paraboliccurve said:

I sell (and buy) a lot of records.

Only ever had to claim twice - once for a record that disappeared en route, and recently for one which arrived cracked.

It was only a copy of Cashing In, but still.

I had sent it guaranteed next day with standard insurance (I can't remember but I think you're automatically covered up to £750 - doesn't matter anyway, I had declared the value at £75, which is what I'd sold it for, and it was clearly well within the standard insurance figure).

Well-packaged, the same as they always are - hence I've never needed to claim for a breakage before.

Royal Mail have simply refused to honour the insurance (in two emails).

They haven't even explained why, which is almost as aggravating as the refusal.

I am of course escalating this claim, and if necessary I'll go to the small claims court, just on principle, but I wondered what experience others had had?

 

 

Think only the buyer can make the claim, as he has payed you and does not have the item .. 

[Paraboliccurve]

6 minutes ago, Sheep said:

Think only the buyer can make the claim, as he has payed you and does not have the item .. 

That's not correct - his contract was with me.

I have to compensate him for delivery of a faulty product (which I have), but he can't claim against the Post Office because he has no contractual relationship with them

[Chalky]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Royal Mail in their small print stipulate packaging should be in a jiffy bag, or they did. 

[Sheep]

1 hour ago, Paraboliccurve said:

That's not correct - his contract was with me.

I have to compensate him for delivery of a faulty product (which I have), but he can't claim against the Post Office because he has no contractual relationship with them

That's not my experience.  They have a duty of care to deliver the item to the recipient. In your case the buyer has not lost any money, so a different situation.

[Paraboliccurve]

1 hour ago, Sheep said:

That's not my experience.  They have a duty of care to deliver the item to the recipient. In your case the buyer has not lost any money, so a different situation.

You can't seek redress for the failure to provide a service in circumstances like these which you haven't paid for, that's a simple matter of English law.

I'll happily stand corrected but I don't think this is possible. 
 

It makes no difference whatsoever if he's lost money (ie if I had refused to reimburse him).
 

He can only seek redress from me (which obviously I was happy to agree to, getting the record there safely is my problem, not his), because he *has* paid me, and it's then up to me to seek redress for the failure of my counterparty ie the Royal Mail. 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Paraboliccurve

[Paraboliccurve]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Royal Mail in their small print stipulate packaging should be in a jiffy bag, or they did. 

They certainly don't now - as above they suggest guidelines but those don't include Jiffy bags. 

But - also as above - guidelines are guidelines, not conditions.
 

For that to be a serious issue they would have to make the Jiffy bags (or any other packaging they cared to stipulate) a condition of service (ie a term of the contract) and make that very clear. 

It obviously would be untenable for them to accept £8.95 for a service which explicitly includes insurance if they know in advance that the customer will not be able to rely on that insurance because of incorrect packaging.

They'd have to instruct their staff not to accept packages which didn't meet those conditions.

They don't do this I assume because it would mean their staff spent all day rejecting packages, not accepting them, and would crater their business inside a week. 
As someone else says above, they're trying it on and they're going to be out of luck. 

[Paraboliccurve]

Just a quick update on this - it's a bit long and boring for most probably but might be of some interest and use to anyone posting out records.

Royal Mail has agreed to pay me the £75 plus the cost of the postage.

However, as you'll see below, they are describing it as a 'goodwill payment'.

I don't accept that, I see it as the compensation I paid for when I took out their insurance, and, while I have accepted the cash (obviously), I am seeking clarification from the relevant Royal Mail review body.

I've done this partly out of academic interest but mostly because of the implication in the 'goodwill' reply, which is that if it happens again they will dig their heels in harder.

(They have also suggested that popsike - data from which I submitted as a way of confirming the value of the record - isn't a suitable means of establishing value; this is nonsense from a legal point of views, though it might be that the relevant page from eg Manship Guide, or a statement from a dealer/dealers, might also help if it ever went any further. Anyway, that's not an issue at this stage.)

 

Their latest reply to me:

Thanks for your email received on 17 July 2024.

I’m sorry to learn of the damage to the contents of your Royal Mail Special Delivery item with reference VExxxxxxxxxGB and you’re dissatisfied with our response.

I also appreciate you’ve sent similar items in the past without any damage caused and I’d like to apologise for any upset or inconvenience we may’ve caused.

Although Royal Mail Special Delivery items receive tracking during stages of their journey, I’ve been unable to identify exactly how your item became damaged.

The details you provided will be used to pinpoint areas of concern, enabling targeted steps to be taken to improve the service we provide.

To claim compensation for damaged items, other than for the postage paid, you need to provide a certificate of posting (this may include photocopies or electronic confirmations) and evidence of value along with the damaged contents and all the original wrapping and packaging used for us to inspect.

When considering claims for compensation for items sold on eBay, customers need to supply the item number, the sale page and a PayPal/bank statement showing the amount paid and any refund given.  This is stated when completing our electronic claim form under What you need to provide.

Customers listed as business sellers on eBay need to also provide evidence of the cost price of sold item.

Compensation isn’t paid for damaged items which aren’t packaged in accordance with our published guidelines.

For your future reference, information on our retail compensation policy for damaged items can be found on our website at Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for damage and part loss │ Royal Mail Group Ltd.

Having reviewed your claim for compensation, I note the images provided don’t show your item was packaged in line with the requirements stated online at How to Securely Wrap a Parcel (royalmail.com) and that we haven’t received the required evidence of value.

In light of the unsatisfactory service and responses you've received, I’ve sent you a cheque for £75.00.  Whilst I trust this will help restore your confidence in us, I’d be unable to offer a further goodwill payment in the unlikely event of a similar occurrence.

I recognise you may still be dissatisfied with my response.  If you wish to escalate this matter further, you can do this by contacting the Postal Review Panel by either emailing postalreview@royalmail.com or by writing to Freepost Postal Review Panel.

I’m sorry for any unintended annoyance or inconvenience our previous decisions may’ve caused you.  I hope this reply has resolved the matter to your satisfaction.

Kind regards

XXX XXXXXX

Escalated Customer Resolution Team

 

My email to the Postal Review:

Dear Sir or Madam

You'll see from the below that I have been engaged in a fairly lengthy correspondence with the Royal Mail after a vinyl record which I posted Special Delivery Guaranteed by 9am arrived broken at the other end.

I have eventually received the compensation to which I was entitled (the postage plus the £75 value of the record) but it was described as a 'goodwill payment'.

The main ground for describing it in those terms appears to be that I did not pack the record in line with the Royal Mail's guidelines.

I do not accept that this is in fact a goodwill payment; I sell a lot of records, I package them in a way which in my opinion is superior to those guidelines (of which I was hitherto unaware), and indeed this is the first time one has been broken in transit.

It is my contention that I packaged the record as I see fit, and that it was accepted by counter staff, who also accepted my payment for the insurance.

At no point did they point out that it was not packed in line with those guidelines, nor that it was a term of the contract and a condition of our agreement that it be so packed.

I would like you to clarify please: are the packaging guidelines on your website in fact to be interpreted as conditions, and thus as contractual terms?

If so, will you please update this section of your website and make your counter staff aware of this policy?

regards

 

Edited July 19, 2024 by Paraboliccurve

[Whiskyagogo]

What a pain for you but Well done in sticking to your guns.

Nothing Royal about the post office hey?