Can someone confirm that the orientation of a record label in relation to the location of stamps and etchings on a 45 runout area are effectively random?

In other words, label position and stamps are likely to be different from one copy to another?

I sold a mint 45 on ebay the other week and the buyer is returning it for a refund because he says it is unplayable due to a nasty scratch... he sent a photo and there are subtle marks on the label that tell me it's not my copy, but I need something more obvious to prove he's a crook.

Looking at comments left by others, he is making a habit of this - upgrading his collection by deception and theft.

I would say the the rotation of the label relative to the runout matrix numbers is totally random and will differ from one copy to another.

If the labels are stacked identically as the usually are the stamp will be in the same place. 

Thanks for your replies.

Oh well, I'll be hoping they were pressed some time apart and the label stack was misaligned. 

Might be better to report the problem to ebay before the disc is returned if at all possible.

4 minutes ago, Tagtag said:

Might be better to report the problem to ebay before the disc is returned if at all possible.

Yes, I have reported it since, but I was too hasty and hit the return item option out of ignorance.

Ebay still allows me to pursue it though, the rough 45 will be good as evidence (FWIW).

 

Do you want to say who this buyer is? Do we need to be warned?

Most double copies of records I have looked at, are random. The runout markings and label orientation are random. Sometimes just by chance and the way they are stacked they might be close, but I have never seen two records exactly the same.

Edited August 27, 2024Aug 27 by Solidsoul

On 27/08/2024 at 11:35, Solidsoul said:

Do you want to say who this buyer is? Do we need to be warned?

Once I have the record back and Ebay onside, I will name him via PM.

 

Edited September 2, 2024Sep 2 by Soul16
Specific detail removed

I'm sorry you're having trouble. Life is full of people who, absolutely shamelessly, want to extort money, betray friendships, and cause misery. I'm having my life made a misery at the moment by two individuals. Not record related.

I hope you manage to resolve your issue and righteousness prevails.

Peter 

A bit 'horses bolted' I know , but any time I've sold anything online , rarely I must add , I've made sure to take good quality photos of said item with a dated item , newspaper usually , just in case of this very scenario occurring.

Much depends on whether the label was applied manually or mechanically. Some minor local labels would load the paper discs by hand for a small pressing run - the YouTube clip for Archer reveals this. Major labels eg RCA, ABC, MGM pressing many thousands of records would use a machine so batches of records’ labels could appear very similar in their positioning.

You sold a mint record so surely there was no scratch on it…

Always best to photograph records for sale to avoid this situation.

On 27/08/2024 at 15:18, Frankie Crocker said:

You sold a mint record so surely there was no scratch on it…

Always best to photograph records for sale to avoid this situation.

No, not a mark anywhere. I have photos and they're good enough to show sufficient detail. I can already see from the photo he sent me that he's done a switch. It's just whether ebay will be diligent enough to confirm.

Mechanically applied for sure.

I've been selling some things off in order to justify a silly money purchase (wife to placate) and aggravation like this just rubs salt into the wound!

Edited September 2, 2024Sep 2 by Soul16
Specific detail removed

3 hours ago, Soul16 said:

No, not a mark anywhere. I have photos and they're good enough to show sufficient detail. I can already see from the photo he sent me that he's done a switch. It's just whether ebay will be diligent enough to confirm.

Mechanically applied for sure. It was the TMG 1170 solid centre reissue of FW.

I've been selling some things off in order to justify a silly money purchase (wife to placate) and aggravation like this just rubs salt into the wound!

The curse of Frank Wilson…

Your photos should clinch it - send them to the chancer and confront him.

7 hours ago, Chalky said:

If the labels are stacked identically as the usually are the stamp will be in the same place. 

But there will be more than one stack of labels for a pressing probably ?

guess it depends how the machine is stacked for labels.

 

 

The labels could be stacked anyway round.

It doesn't matter and anyone loading the machines know this so would not bother trying to get them all the same way round to match the run-out details!

What would be the point of that?

It would be like putting bottle tops on to line up with the bottles labels!

Edited August 27, 2024Aug 27 by Solidsoul

Soul16, sorry to hear this, what a devious bas***d. I hope you can get some sort of resolution on the positive side for yourself.

2 hours ago, Dylan said:

But there will be more than one stack of labels for a pressing probably ?

guess it depends how the machine is stacked for labels.

 

 

Maybe. If mechanical like many plants then for each batch of labels they would generally be in the same place and therefore the stamp in the same place. You only have to read manships guide where he describes the place in hours for where the stamp is for some presses. 

I don't have his record with me yet.

I'll do a proper comparison when his worthless piece of junk arrives, I can check the B side too and have a look at etch locations, although looking at the runout groove, I suspect that they will be the same.

Edited September 2, 2024Sep 2 by Soul16
Images removed

2 hours ago, Soul16 said:

I don't have his record with me yet, so first photo is the one he sent me via ebay and the second is from my ebay listing.

I'll do a proper comparison when his worthless piece of junk arrives, I can check the B side too and have a look at etch locations, although looking at the runout groove, I suspect that they will be the same.

Not sure how good the resolution will be here, but the differences are pretty clear to me.

 

Happened to me 13 years ago with an MVP's UK Demo and ever since then I have taken photos like you. I am no doubt that you are being scammed on a return policy scam.

When Gwen Owens came to Prestatyn she brought with her 4  copie’s of Just Say Your Wanted all originals to sell. These were what she had given to her family back in the day. 2 had identical runouts and the other 2 were completely different, this meaning that there were at least 3 runs pressed from different plates. The plot thickens. 

Two different records mate. Well done on spotting a scammer. Photos are proof of the facts - the buyer should be rather worried now his wheeze has been rumbled.

On 28/08/2024 at 19:25, Frankie Crocker said:

Two different records mate. Well done on spotting a scammer. Photos are proof of the facts - the buyer should be rather worried now his wheeze has been rumbled.

I've sent him the photos and asked for his thoughts, but unfortunately he has not replied.

Edited September 2, 2024Sep 2 by Soul16
Specific detail removed

If I publicly name him, I could find myself in trouble because as far as eBay is concerned he hasn’t committed an offence…

Topic closed.

 

Edited September 2, 2024Sep 2 by Soul16
Outcome update