The USA Columbia red issues where northern soul is concerned seem to be infinitely rarer than the various demos….why?

these 3 off the top of my head….any more?

dana valery

liz verdi

Turley Richards

Jimmy Fraser - Tombstones

Susan Rewis - They Say

Linda Lloyd - Breakaway

 

1 minute ago, Alan T said:

Jimmy Fraser - Tombstones

Susan Rewis - They Say

Linda Lloyd - Breakaway

 

Would you say these were much rarer than the demos,I know the jimmy fraser defo is?

19 minutes ago, Alan T said:

Jimmy Fraser - Tombstones

Susan Rewis - They Say

Linda Lloyd - Breakaway

 

Thank you for reminding me of the Linda Lloyd tune too….superb

17 minutes ago, Dobber said:

Thank you for reminding me of the Linda Lloyd tune too….superb

Must admit I do prefer the demos...red on White always looks good,as opposed to the Black on Red,the Red always seems to be mottled and blotchy...

Many of the above have little to do with soul ... other than being spun at UK NS events ...

THAT ASIDE .... it seems it was the US Vice President who got behind this BACK TO SCHOOL 45 release and it was the US Government that wanted Jimmy Fraser's 45 to get an official commercial release (copies in American record stores) ...

 

51 minutes ago, Dobber said:

Would you say these were much rarer than the demos,I know the jimmy fraser defo is?

 

33 minutes ago, Dobber said:

Thank you for reminding me of the Linda Lloyd tune too….superb

I've had a red Linda Lloyd. The ones I listed are a lot harder to find as issues, I'd add Eric Lomax to that list too.

I've had a Susan Rewis - They Say on red Columbia issue.......I've never really seen many of them only the odd few (maybe?), most seem to be white demo's.

This was my copy but ended up selling it a number of years ago 😃

Edited May 2May 2 by Mot
Image added.

I love the look of the Susan Rewis on the red Rhodesian CBS label with the triangular centre as seen on Discogs , can't imagine why it got pressed/released over there.

 

35 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

I love the look of the Susan Rewis on the red Rhodesian CBS label with the triangular centre as seen on Discogs , can't imagine why it got pressed/released over there.

 

That does look great!

11 hours ago, Roburt said:

 

Many of the above have little to do with soul ... other than being spun at UK NS events ...

 

Now that is a whole other ponder? First off…what is soul? Is northern soul just about “soul” and for me i dont think the northern soul would have survived out of the 70’s without these so called “not soul” or “it’s a pop song” wouldn’t most most peoples top 20 be made up of the likes of Dana valery….jimmy Fraser…liz Verdi?

anyway back to subject,whats your thoughts on why with major labels there seems to be loads of demos and next to nothing issues in a lot of cases?

 

13 minutes ago, Dobber said:

 

anyway back to subject,whats your thoughts on why with major labels there seems to be loads of demos and next to nothing issues in a lot of cases?

 

Promotion and feedback, simple. That said certain producers and by extension the promotion guys had their preferred artists, so indi and one off recordings were doomed in most cases to not get beyond demo stage, even if they had sold well in their local areas. 
 

I think we forget sometimes with what it was like back then, certainly from what I’ve read, the music industry was segregated, and as the two markets came together, allot got lost in the mix. 
 

Don’t they have a term in sales, ‘low hanging fruit’ Michael by the C.O.D.S is a great example, but for every ‘Michael’ there were 10 lesser or unprompted records, equally as good but without someone to really push them.

47 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Promotion and feedback, simple. That said certain producers and by extension the promotion guys had their preferred artists, so indi and one off recordings were doomed in most cases to not get beyond demo stage, even if they had sold well in their local areas. 
 

I think we forget sometimes with what it was like back then, certainly from what I’ve read, the music industry was segregated, and as the two markets came together, allot got lost in the mix. 
 

Don’t they have a term in sales, ‘low hanging fruit’ Michael by the C.O.D.S is a great example, but for every ‘Michael’ there were 10 lesser or unprompted records, equally as good but without someone to really push them.

Yeah that makes sense my mate,well put👍

I'm not too sure it was exactly the same case with US 45's, but this was sure what went on with albums ...

Big record companies would sign artists by the dozen. They'd put a lot of effort into the initial releases from each artist (ads to support an album release, financing promo live shows / short tour, etc + releasing a 45 to help publicise the album, etc. If an act's record didn't take off then the label's interest would cool. But, many times they'd signed the artist to a 2 year / 3 album deal ... so they had (by contract law) to put out another 2 LP's. They'd have the act back in the studio & lay down the tracks for an album quickly & cheaply. They'd then press up say 1000 copies of the new album but spend not a single $ on promoting it (apart from sending a few copies out to radio stns). OF COURSE, a radio DJ might like a track or 2 on it & spin it on his show. The album could then get some traction & the label would make a bit of an effort to increase it's sales. BUT, lots of the time, the album would escape almost un-noticed. The label would then ( 2 / 3 months later) add the pressed copies to it's CUT-OUTS pile. These would be sold off in bulk to ONE-STOPS , record warehouses, shipping companies that needed heavy ballast for an Atlantic passage by a freighter.

.. ...  .. the 2nd & 3rd albums would therefore gain release but next to no money would be spent on them. Copies would say cost 50c to manufacture but could be sold off in bulk for say 25c each. The label would declare a loss on the product that they could claim tax relief on. So these artists releases hadn't 'caught on' but it had cost the record company next to nothing in real terms to honour the contract they'd entered into.  

WITH REGARD TO 45's ... a similar process would be followed ... many new 45 releases would be pressed up in PROMO COPY format (say 5000 copies) and these would be sent out to radio station jocks (& later in the 70's to disco DJ's). If the 45 in question gained little or no radio / club plays then a minimal number of 'issue copies' would be all that was pressed up. IF THE 45 did get some radio action, then the single in question would get a proper run of issue copies being manufactured in the label's pressing plant. These would then be made available for sale to ONE-STOPS, record stores, etc. and it would have the chance to sell in bulk and maybe make the charts. But for every 45 that got to enjoy a decent pressing run, there were many others that didn't.

As I posted on the recent article 1964 – The Year Billboard Abandoned R&B, record company promo men would stalk radio DJ's to influence them in what to play on their shows. They'd go to sock hop / club nights the DJ's were hosting and hand over copies of that labels new 45 releases while buying drinks for the jock most of the night.

ANOTHER TACTIC ... bigger labels (Motown, Stax, Capitol, Arctic, etc.) would get their acts to do chitlin circuit shows for certain radio jocks. The acts would play one night for free & the jock would pocket all the takings from the show. IN RETURN, that label would expect the jock to playlist all the label's new 45 releases ... DJ's such as HOT ROD would put on such shows in Baltimore with the acts playing for him for free --  he was on air there with radio stns  WEBB, WWIN and WITH (at different times).

Edited May 2May 2 by Roburt

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

As I posted on the recent article 1964 – The Year Billboard Abandoned R&B, record company promo men would stalk radio DJ's to influence them in what to play on their shows. They'd go to sock hop / club nights the DJ's were hosting and hand over copies of that labels new 45 releases while buying drinks for the jock most of the night.

ANOTHER TACTIC ... bigger labels (Motown, Stax, Capitol, Arctic, etc.) would get their acts to do chitlin circuit shows for certain radio jocks. The acts would play one night for free & the jock would pocket all the takings from the show. IN RETURN, that label would expect the jock to playlist all the label's new 45 releases ... DJ's such as HOT ROD would put on such shows in Baltimore with the acts playing for him for free --  he was on air there with radio stns  WEBB, WWIN and WITH (at different times).

Very informative,and thank you for taking the time out to show us this info👍

From my experience ordering from major US record labels in the 70s the system was based on regional independent distributors who would represent a number of major and lesser labels. They would also do local promotion for the labels, handing promo copies to just about anyone who could get the record played either on the radio or local teen hops. They would have stock copies on their shelves ready for any shop orders.

The theory that stock copies were pressed only after getting radio plays is complete rubbish, this was probably the product of over stimulated minds at the record bar in Wigan Casino and has been repeated ever since. A more typical situation is shown by Ady's sleeve notes for Northern Rarities CD which states that The Imaginations -Strange Neighborhood  first pressing order was for 3500 stock copies and 5000 promo copies. So lots of promos and limited stock copies (as Roburt stated above).

When a record failed to take off or the distributors only sold  a small amount the remaining stock copies would be returned to the labels warehouse. This was essential so the label only paid royalties for actual sales not records shipped. Promo copies didn't count as sales so these were kept by the distributors and then sold for almost nothing, given away or binned. For major labels like Columbia they didn't want their flops in the bargain bins, not good for their image, so destroyed them or sat on them in warehouses. Other major labels would do the same, hence stock copies are rare for RCA, ABC, MGM etc. Smaller labels might have sold off unsold stock as they could have needed the money and didn't have the facilities to store large quantities of records.

For hit records by major pop artists the number of promos seems to be a lot less than stock copies. I don't remember ever finding Columbia promos by the likes of Bob Dylan, Simon and Garfunkel, Johnny Cash and The Byrds.

Just to add to my post above ... a week of shows for Balto radio DJ HOT ROD ... he was the organiser of this revue, so pocketed the cash made each night ... AUGUST 65 ... 

. . . . guess he played a lot of Chess / Checker / Cadet 45's on his show for a few weeks afterwards ...  the reference to his ROCKET REUNION CELEBRATION is coz for years his own promotions were tagged as Commander Hot Rod and the Rocket Ship Show ... 

Edited May 2May 2 by Roburt

The promotional arm of the majors was massive and the amount of radio Djs, Tv stations, club Djs etc to furnish with promo material was massive.  I guess many issues were reground/recycled if sales didn’t follow.

I'd say most majors would press up 5000 promo copies of each 45 release. These would be mailed out to appropriate radio stations -- for soul 45's that would be each & every R&B station in the US + some pop stns (8 or so copies to each to service the stn's Program Manager and each of it's regular DJ's). Then copies would go out to each music mag across the States and the guys who ran relevant TIP-SHEETS. The next load of promo 45's would go out to the label's promotion's team -- the guys on the ground in each area / city that kept in contact with local DJ's and others on the area's soul scene. Those guys were meant to be on the ball and efficient in their work. However, sometimes a promo guy might have other issues to deal with & so not work too hard to 'plug' releases over a certain period. Or he might only like 80% of the new releases sent to him & not wanting to push cuts he didn't believe in, might leave the other 20% in his basement. He would therefore only 'work' the rest of the pile he was meant to help get the word out on.

Retired promotion men many times would have a basement / garage full of old 45's that they had been meant to get out on their local scene. Selling these to a local contact in the biz (while they were still on the payroll of the record company they were working for) would have been a major no-no. But once their ties with the label had ended, well that was way different.  

Some big labels would use certain areas / cities to test a new release. So, on the odd occasion just a certain geographic area would initially be serviced with a particular release. If it failed to take off there, it's general release wouldn't actually follow in a major way. Baltimore was always regarded as a strong & influential radio market for black releases. My brain's fuddled these days but I know some (very few) soul 45's that were just marketed in the Baltimore / DC area, is there anyone here that has a better memory and can name which ones ?  I seem to remember it stating on the label, ONLY AVAILABLE IN BALTIMORE or some similar text.    

During each & every oil crisis, period of vinyl shortage, big labels would recycle returned / unsold 45 stock and add a % of this crumb to the mix when pressing up new singles ... this practise was widespread and not just a US thing. That's why the quality of many un-played 45's from such places as Jamaica leaves much to be desired (there they'd end up with bits of old paper labels pressed into the grooves of 45's manufactured using the technique). Even radio stn's old record library stock was considered for recycling purposes, though how often this actually happened I'm not sure about ...  seems the stns also broadcast pleas for their listeners to also turn in unwanted 45's to be added to the pile for recycling.

 

Edited May 3May 3 by Roburt

Another fascinating read Roburt. Thanks.

Can't any company only press a certain amount or a certain percentage of demonstration copies?  I know they couldn’t press as many as they wanted.

Edited May 3May 3 by Chalky

On 03/05/2025 at 09:42, Chalky said:

Can't any company only press a certain amount or a certain percentage of demonstration copies?  I know they couldn’t press as many as they wanted.

I've not read about this anywhere but it could have been a result of the payola scandal in the 1950/60s. The Wikipedia entry for payola doesn't give a lot of information just that radio DJs were paid cash and other incentives to play records. If this included boxes of promos a limit on numbers pressed may have been stipulated. There's a lot of stuff about payola out there that may mention this but someone else might know more or be able to find out. 

 

 

On 03/05/2025 at 08:23, Roburt said:

I'd say most majors would press up 5000 promo copies of each 45 release. These would be mailed out to appropriate radio stations -- for soul 45's that would be each & every R&B station in the US + some pop stns (8 or so copies to each to service the stn's Program Manager and each of it's regular DJ's). Then copies would go out to each music mag across the States and the guys who ran relevant TIP-SHEETS. The next load of promo 45's would go out to the label's promotion's team -- the guys on the ground in each area / city that kept in contact with local DJ's and others on the area's soul scene. Those guys were meant to be on the ball and efficient in their work. However, sometimes a promo guy might have other issues to deal with & so not work too hard to 'plug' releases over a certain period. Or he might only like 80% of the new releases sent to him & not wanting to push cuts he didn't believe in, might leave the other 20% in his basement. He would therefore only 'work' the rest of the pile he was meant to help get the word out on.

Retired promotion men many times would have a basement / garage full of old 45's that they had been meant to get out on their local scene. Selling these to a local contact in the biz (while they were still on the payroll of the record company they were working for) would have been a major no-no. But once their ties with the label had ended, well that was way different.  

Some big labels would use certain areas / cities to test a new release. So, on the odd occasion just a certain geographic area would initially be serviced with a particular release. If it failed to take off there, it's general release wouldn't actually follow in a major way. Baltimore was always regarded as a strong & influential radio market for black releases. My brain's fuddled these days but I know some (very few) soul 45's that were just marketed in the Baltimore / DC area, is there anyone here that has a better memory and can name which ones ?  I seem to remember it stating on the label, ONLY AVAILABLE IN BALTIMORE or some similar text.    

During each & every oil crisis, period of vinyl shortage, big labels would recycle returned / unsold 45 stock and add a % of this crumb to the mix when pressing up new singles ... this practise was widespread and not just a US thing. That's why the quality of many un-played 45's from such places as Jamaica leaves much to be desired (there they'd end up with bits of old paper labels pressed into the grooves of 45's manufactured using the technique). Even radio stn's old record library stock was considered for recycling purposes, though how often this actually happened I'm not sure about ...  seems the stns also broadcast pleas for their listeners to also turn in unwanted 45's to be added to the pile for recycling.

 

Re Baltimore , Ed Balbier the owner of Global records mentioned that certain records were popular in Baltimore and Pittsburgh only. Two he picked out were Feathers- Trying To Get To You and Tony Galla when they were selling as Northern soul.

Ed operated an indie distribution business in late 50s and 60s so would have an insight into regional playlists. He would have known loads about the US record industry but I , like others, never asked and it's too late now. To us he was just a grumpy old man.

56 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

Re Baltimore , Ed Balbier the owner of Global records mentioned that certain records were popular in Baltimore and Pittsburgh only. Two he picked out were Feathers- Trying To Get To You and Tony Galla when they were selling as Northern soul.

  I'm not sure if I would agree with Ed about Tony Galla and the Feathers. Tony did best in Buffalo, New York (his hometown)  and the Feathers was played on over 30 U.S. stations going from Bakersfield, CA. all the way to stations in Florida.

 

And neither had anything remotely to do with "Columbia Red Issues" ...