Robbk

I always heard they were a New York/Northern New Jersey Metro group. They were definitely not The Chicago group who recorded for Beltone and Okeh. There was also a male Opals group during the early 1950s, who recorded for Apollo Records, and a couple other New York labels.

"Blind Girl" got a few stray plays as a new "test record", but never got in even an infrequent rotation, as far as I remember. "Black Girl" by The Desires was played a lot more, and sold decently locally and was stocked in a lot more shops. I saw The Del-Tours in a shop and played it, and then bought it. Incidentally, this is an example for the "Releases With The Same Catalogue Number" thread, both being Starville 1206. Amanda Love's "I Don't Mind" was played more, too.

This is the PR announcement by Talty & Jan's publicist. They were worried about problems with Chess because of the clause in the contract that read "No songs written by Curtis Mayfield will be accepted for production". I'm sure they still felt safe in getting this released by another label because it was recorded previous to her signing her artist contract with Chess. They just leased that old Spring 1963 recording to Stacy in November 1963, they didn't have Stacy record it that late in the year. The same was true of their releasing "Behind The Curtains" on Night Owl. Jan and Don were safe (probably told to them by their lawyer, who advised they add the contract comment in their press release. Clearly she was okay contractwise, as Chess released "I'm Over You" soon after "These Tears" flopped, and several other singles, one-by-one at regular intervals, for 2 years after. There was no long gap, which could account for her leaving Chess after fulfilling her contract with "These Tears", and then she and Don having a rapprochement with Davis or Phil Chess, and signing a 2nd contract. Jan apparently had an exclusive artist contract with Chess, which didn't allow her to do any recording for any other record company while she was under contract to Chess. She didn't, as although the Hootenanny and Night Owl releases occurred while she was under contract to Chess, the recordings were made under the auspices of, and paid for, by different producers, and those owners of those productions had the rights to commercial use of those products, and the right to release new records with those recordings, whenever they wanted to do so. The add-on in the press release was only to let Chess know that Talty and Jan knew their contract obligations and that they weren't breaking them. This was because Chess didn't know whether or not those 2 releases were recorded before she signed her contract. If Billy Davis were to bring up his irritation about the 2 releases, Don could show the recording studio receipt, showing the individual songs. He had to keep those for his Formal Records' taxes. Jan Bradley was still a Don Talty (Formal) artist - she was on lease to Chess Records, just like Marv Johnson was a Berry Gordy artist while under contract with UA.

Although this was released after "Mama Didn't Lie" in Dec. 1963,I believe it was recorded along with other cuts done with Mayfield, BEFORE "Mama Didn't Lie" became a smash hit, and that was before Chess offered a contract to Jan. The Night Owl record's cuts were also produced by Talty with Mayfield, BEFORE Chess leased "Mama Didn't Lie". Her new contract with Chess stated that she couldn't work with Curtis any more. That didn't prevent Don Talty from leasing cuts he made on her working with Curtis and The Impressions before she signed with Chess. The Hootenanny(Stacy) release was cut before - so, no possible problem. The lease to Night Owl (probably owned by Talty, Jan, and Curtis) was, indeed released later than "Mama didn't Lie", but Chess had no claim on it, and couldn't legally prevent the 3 of them from releasing it, because it belonged solely to them, and was recorded BEFORE Chess signed Jan. Talty had 3 releases on Jan from the recordings with Curtis on his own Formal Records, all before Chess leased "Mama Didn't Lie", after its local success on its Formal Records release, and after she was offered the Chess contract, Talty released the Night Owl record, and leased the Christmas record to Stacy/Hootenanny. On Hindsight, Talty and Jan should have not had her sign with Chess, and gone with Mayfield and his crew at ABC IF Chess and Mayfield had the falling out before Chess offered her the artist contract, while her Formal record was just being leased by Chess. I think that was the case, because the disagreement probably came about when Curtis told Chess what cut he wanted for himself out of Chess' ongoing deal with the 3 of them. Jan would have been best off by going with Curtis to ABC, where he worked with Johhny Pate as arranger, and sometimes also as producer, and there was a "Curtom" production crew, including The Impressions as back-ups, Curtis on guitar, Curtis, Johnny Jones, Jerry Butler, Billy Butler, and Major Lance as sometimes songwriters. That group probably would have gotten her more hits than Talty did for Chess, and also more than The Chess writers and arrangers did. However, it could be that the disagreement caused by Mayfield's discontent came AFTER Jan and Talty signed, and then Chess gave them an ultimatum that she'd have to quit working with Mayfield, or they would tear up the contract. They had lots of money and could hire much better lawyers than Talty could. So, they would be afraid to tear up the contract themselves, for fear of losing a big lawsuit. Besides, Talty had gotten her an artist contract with a big, successful label, and he had reason to believe that Billy Davis and his production crew could do just as well for her as Mayfield/Pate could do for her at ABC. But this whole situation just points out how very important the quality of songwriting and production values are to even an excellent singer; and also shows how important having a producer who has a good rapport with the singer, and also knows how to get the most from that singer, and has the singer's best interest at heart (not just for his or her own success). Such a situation can make the difference between the singer making an entire life's career out of singing, or only doing it for a few years and being forced to get a common "day job". A couple years later, Jan was out of The Business.

Jan wrote this completely on her own based on trying to copy Curtis Mayfield's style as best she could, because she got her only hit with his song, and she didn't like Talty's songwriting, and Chess had a disagreement with Curtis on producer credits and pay, and told Talty and Jan to not use Mayfield any more. She did such a great job emulating his style that I wish she'd have written a bunch more like that, as the rest of her Chess material was lousy. At least she got Mayfield's other songs written for her out on Talty's Formal Records, and "Behind The Curtains" out on Night Owl Records. Those were all great, having The Impressions backing her.

I bought mine in Chicago during the mid 1960s when it was out, so if anyone wants the runout markings let me know.

Not only that, but the print is weak and uneven, like it was taken from a photocopy.

I love Ashford and Simpson songs; but I love Ashford, Simpson & Armstead songs even more. Ashford & Simpson were a little towards The Brill Building sound. Jo added a more Jazzy & Bluesy feel that made the overall sound more full, rich, and deep. That trio wrote several of my all-time favourite hits - many of which didn't hit it big on the pop charts because they were "too darned Soulful"!

I agree. At least, that's what I heard. Interesting that Loleatta Holloway's version, although recorded in Atlanta, some ex Detroiters worked on it - Floyd Smith, and engineer Milan Bogden.

I can remember when the only people who even knew that record existed were those of us who had seen it in The Motown Record File.

"She can be covered with a rash, 'Long as she's got some cash!" - The Contours - "First I Look At The Purse" Gordy Records 1964 "Without her love I couldn't exist..... I'd e-end my life by cut my-y wrist!" - Gino Washington (backed by the uncredited Rochelles) - "Puppet On A String" Correc-Tone Records original version - 1962 "Well, my heart started beatin' fast as it could be-eat, I stood there shakin' from my head to my feet, I didn't know just what I wanted to do, When a Monster said, 'Which way is Fifth Avenue?' I hollered, 'Save me-e-e!'.... 'Save me!' I hollered, 'Save me-e-e!'..... 'Sa-ave me!' I hollered, 'Save me!', I hollered 'Save me! From the people from another world!' " The Jive Five "People From Another World" - Beltone Records 1962 I was standin', I was standin' on th' cor-ner, wit' my reefers in mah han' up step' dee sar-gent.... took dee reefers out mah han' "Champion" Jack DuPree - "Junker's Blues" - Okeh Records 1940

Good point. It's NOT strange, after all. Apparently I made an incorrect assumption about the dating of the 2 Motown purchases related to that of the Wingate-Griffin co-productions and Wingate's use of "Myto Music" and "Ric-Tic Music". Now it is clear that "Myto Music" was indeed dissolved, upon the first, 1966 Motown buyout, because the Wingate-Griffin co-productions took place in early 1966, BEFORE Motown's later 1966 buyout of Golden World Records, Golden World Sound Studio, and the Myto Music catalogue. At that time, Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton continued operating Ric-Tic Records, starting with Ric-Tic 141, operating out of their house, and using United Sound Studios. With Myto Music gone, they revived an already existing (but dormant since 1963) music publishing company (Ric-Tic Music) they had used in 1962-63 during their early years of operating Golden World and Ric-Tic Records, when they recorded in New York, and used New York songwriters. When they stopped operation of Ric-Tic Records in 1968, and sold off the contracts with a few more artists, and sold off the Ric-Tic Music catalogue (up to that point) and related master tapes, they DID NOT sell the name "Ric Tic Music", so they could use it again, because its former product now was instantly transferred to the Jobete Music Catalogue. So, that must be why Ed and JoAnne could again use Ric-Tic Music to publish their 1971 Golden World record.

All 3 issues were recorded, pressed up, and had been sold from commercial outlets before the changeover. Ric-Tic's "I Love You Madly", by The Fantastic Four, was selling well in the middle of its run, when the Motown 2nd Wingate (Ric-Tic) buyout/purchase and transfer was being completed. As soon as the takeover was completed, Motown pressed up the charted record's next press run on its own Soul label, as Ric-Tic had been shut down. Credits for its publishing had been changed to Jobete Music (from Myto), as the rights to that song's publishing were part of the existing Myto Music catalogue purchase. So, all those Myto Music songs existing at the time of Motown's buyout, immediately became published by Motown's Jobete Music. However, Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton were not out of the music business. They had some productions after that, including projects done together with Herman Griffin (Diane Lewis on Wand Records, The Players on Columbia), both of which listed their Myto Music (which hadn't been purchased by Motown in the buyout, - only the songs existing at that time). In 1971, The Wingates released a Golden World record "Stompin' Crazy Legs" by The Modern Times, which was also published by a Wingate publisher, Ric-Tic Music.

Yes. Richard worked also with Leo Austell, who worked on lot together on those small Chicago labels related to Renee(Sta-Set, Conduc, Lu-Cee, and Mar-Jan). Lamaja Music was Austell's. Jerhart was Bob Lee's. I think Austell was the A&R man, and managing partner (head producer and also arranger for most of them, partnering with financiers, or Lee in most. Where he and Lee both were involved, they shared producing duties. Goldsby (Ricky Gee) recorded for all those except Lu-Cee. Ruth Moore's Vick, and Lee's Hawk Records were related, as well.

As far as I remember, "Ricky Gee" was Richard Goldsby (family originally related to the family with the surname, Goolsby), and was an African-American. I remember seeing a few photos of him. He was Bob Lee's partner in a couple tiny Chicago record labels, and a songwriter, and helped Lee with production. As far as the versions, I bought the yellow Conduc issue, which was the common one, which was pretty pervasive locally. I don't remember seeing the red one in stores. So, my guess is that the red version might have been the original version, which didn't sell, or Lee couldn't get DJs to play, so he recorded a different version, or changed the speed to make it more marketable, based on people's reaction to the first version.

And Ike was born in 1927.

Yes, Eddie was the oldest, and he was a Jazz/Swing combo leader, musician, and vocalist, as well.

I never knew he was Nat's, Eddie's, and Ike's brother. His voice has much less family resemblance than the other three, although it does have some level of their smoothness and familial tone.

"Society Hill" is an American metaphor for the place where the rich (high-falutin') people live. That song is more likely to be about Pittsburgh than Philadelphia. It's not about Chicago because that city is perfectly flat. Not even a mole hill there. In Chicago, the singer would be talking about "the billionaires on Lake Shore Drive".

It wasn't a dead rare record. But, it certainly wasn't the easiest to find, even back when it was out.

The pacquet's white label has BOTH "Hit and Run" AND "You'd Better Wake Up" written twice. "Hit and Run" is listed as by Gwen Owens twice (i.e. 2 different versions), and "You'd Better Wake Up" has Gwen Owens listed for the first version, and Telma (Hopkins) as the possible artist for the second version. The second one follows the colon, just as Gwen Owens does. Therefore, it must be a guess as to who the artist is, rather than the record company recipient of the recording. I doubt that that was a misspelling of "Thelma" standing for Thelma Records.

I can't believe that Martha Reeves would have sung a demo for Thelma Records in 1966, or, even as early as 1965. She had absolutely no reason to risk angering Berry Gordy at that time, to help out Don Davis or Joey "King" Fish, or just to make a little extra money. That makes no sense at all. On the other hand, her group's rumoured moonlighting, backing up some of J.J. Barnes 1963 and early 1964 Mickay's and Ring recordings, for her old bosses, Joe Hunter and Fred Brown, would have been a different story, considering that back then, Hunter was still also an important cog at Motown, and the group's money was still being "managed" by Berry Gordy. In that case, The Vandellas could help Hunter out, and get some needed cash, and, if caught, maybe just a slap-on-the wrist fine, because Berry likely didn't want to lose Hunter's services (he DID leave some months later near the end of 1964).

Yes, but wasn't that during the time in which he was between contracts and holding out for a better deal, and he got together with The Cavaliers, and booked some dates of gigs to get leverage, trying to get a better deal with Motown (then, he DID re-sign with Motown, after only some weeks in between)? I think that the recording listed as Martha Reeves might have been Martha Starr, or one of those other singers who sounded like her.

No, I never knew for sure that he was a songwriter or songwriter/producer with them. I just heard that as a rumour from one or two L.A. record collectors. I did see his name as co-writer on one or two of Hal Davis' Finesse Music published songs on small Hal Davis-related L.A. labels, which seemed to go along with the rumour. He was one of the group of Watts/South Central/South L.A. producers and songwriters who hung out together, and sometimes worked together on projects with the same small label, and he had one or two of his own productions, or self-written sons released on the same small L.A. label as had released Jobete songs, so I guessed that he might have been among the writers whose songs could be used by Davis and Gordon to offer to Jobete. Now that I've looked through all my records in those labels, I'm wondering if that was a reasonable conclusion. He may have just been a general colleague as a fellow South L.A. writer/producer, who crossed paths with all the Jobette crew, but never had actually worked on a Jobette project. Or, maybe I saw a Jobette song he co-wrote in another collector's collection, and I've since forgotten the record?

I never did understand why Martha would have recorded a solo for Don Davis, as late as 1965 or 1966, well after becoming a mega-star with Motown. She did record, along with her group members, some backgrounds for Joe Hunter, for use on J.J. Barnes releases in late 1963 and early 1964 (after "Heatwave", but before she had gathered in a lot of money, and while Motown was still parceling it out very slowly to her. I found it very hard to believe. And I wasn't sure, after listening over and over to it, that that was really Martha.