Robbk

I've never seen a white demo of 1972. The only white demos, or non-sticker-tagged demo of a Big Wheel issue I've seen were The Falcons' "Standing On Guard", and Sandy Hollis' "I'm Tempted". And, I can't be sure that the latter isn't a bootleg, because it was the green, store stalker, that I bought at the time the record was out, and got the white copy a few years later (which, incidentally, doesn't have any wording on it related to being a promotional copy).

After listening to several Chris Clark cuts, I've changed my mind. I'm very confident that Chris and Connie were two different people. Every song sung by Chris Clark that I've played, and can remember in my head has her with a lighter, less full voice, which gets "breathy" whenever she reaches for higher notes, or at the end of extending to a longer note/ Connie, on the other hand, has a more full, and heavy voice all through her song, and her voice never gets "breathy", even when she extends for a long note, or in reaching for the high end of her range. Also, although their individual tones are fairly close as unrelated people go, they are different enough to surmise that they are different people (e.g. ALL Chris Clark's recordings reveal personal tones that are much more alike (with each other), than they are to Connie's "My Sugar Baby". So, until I hear other cuts by Connie that have her singing in a lighter, less full voice, with a tone closer to Chris', AND getting "breathy" when extending a long note, or to the high end of her range, I'll continue to feel very confident that they are/were two different people.

Yes, Connie sounds enough like Chris to make that guess seem plausible. The problem is that there aren't enough of Connie's recordings to make a thorough comparison. Two different people can sound similar when comparing only one song, each, just by coincidence, because that one, particular song, by chance didn't require one or the other (or both) to stretch towards the end of their abilities, to hit a high or low note, or carry a long note to its end, or bring out a particular unique personal style nuance that would set one apart from the other. There are songs that challenge the singer to reach for new heights, and those which are more standard, in which less differences in singing style come out. Our problem here is that we don't have a Connie Clark recording that challenges her enough to hear some (maybe ANY) of her unique style features, that would set her apart from Chris to a degree which would make it obvious that they were two different people. "My Sugar Baby" IS a song that could challenge a singer such as Connie. But, unfortunately, she didn't challenge herself enough by changing her emotional input enough to produce enough of a personal style difference to make it obvious that she is not Chris Clark. To me, she DOES sound different enough from the way Chris does on several recordings, but not quite enough for me to rule out the possibility that they aren't the same person. In other words, if a gun were put to my head, and the holder would ask me to decide if they are the same person, or 2 different people, and if my answer would be wrong he would fire it, I would guess they were 2 different people. BUT, on the other hand, I am not confident enough that that is absolutely true, for me to bet my entire assets on that fact - proving that I'm not convinced enough that I can rule out any possibility that they ARE the same person.

I really doubt that Connie Clark was Connie Van Dyke, who lived in Detroit, was a C&W singer, and won a radio station singing contest as a teenager, to win her having Motown record and release a record on her. Connie Clark lived in L.A. Their voices don't sound alike, at all.

Right! Extremely unlikely to be this one. Connie Clark was a session background singer in L.A., who came to Frank Wilson's attention when he was a songwriter and independent producer. It's unlikely that she was in her 40s when he met her. I think she was in her early 20s at the time of her Jobete L.A, and Joker Records recordings. Also, she sounded more like in her 20s than in her 40s. All the Jobete L.A. female background singers (that I can remember - Brenda and Patrice Holloway, Pat Hunt, Mary Love, Gloria Jones, Sandy Wynns, Jean King, Debra Dion, etc. were either in their late teens or early 20s. I believe that young girls and women generally acted as if they had a short time window in that industry. If they didn't make it fairly big in that industry, as a fairly-well-known singer by their mid 20s, they started leaving to return to school to work on getting into a more stable career, or taking jobs in other fields, or marrying their boyfriends and becoming housewives. Only those prolific background groups, like The Blossoms, Raelettes, and Cookies, etc., could be assured of earning a regular enough income to stay in the music business as a singer, if they couldn't make a regular living through public appearances as a featured singer, or in a featured group.

This woman has GOT to be way-y-y-y too young to have been 20+ years old in 1965.

Some Motown insiders have stated that they had heard that Berry Gordy originally set up that label for Miss Ray to run, because she wanted to try her hand in producing records and working with new, young artists. But, clearly, Berry had a lot to do with the label from the beginning, both producing sessions and writing for the artists. He wasn't going to give his long-coveted newly-signed Temptations away to solo handling by Raynoma. She did use the label to get out a record on herself (Little Iva). As stated above, Miracle Records was converted to Gordy Records in early 1962, with The Temptations, and Valadiers moving with the label. Mel-O-dy Records was started soon after, as Motown's 4th imprint, at first, also as mainly an R&B label. before a big change a few months later, when they started a new Gospel label (Divinity), Jazz label (Workshop Jazz), and Mel-O-dy was converted first, to a catch-all label, adding Pop and novelty, and soon after, becoming a C&W label, ending up as a more diversified record company, attempting to serve several different musical markets with 6 different label imprints, using multiple distributors, and within one more year, opening up production offices and marketing offices in different areas of the country (Los Angeles, New York, and Texas). So, Starting Miracle Records was the first major move to increase the size and diversification of the company.

Yes, GRT/Chess was hurting badly for new hits by 1970-72, so they re-issued several cuts by known artists, some of whom were no longer contracted to their label.

Well, you would expect it to get a fair amount of play in Chicago. The reason I, myself, didn't hear it in on WVON and WLS in January, 1967, was because I was attending university in L.A., where it got virtually no airplay, and was only in Chicagoland during Christmas Vacation, leaving to return to L.A. in late December, ostensibly before it started to get regular play on WVON. I returned in Spring Break (late March, or early April), well after its run had finished. Whether or not it sold decently in Chicago, during my many years of making record searching trips across USA and looking through hundreds of thousands of 45s, it was very rare compared with other Dells' releases. So, I doubt that it sold well or charted much nationally. I could see Chess re-releasing it to see if it would sell, similar to Motown's releasing "Jimmy Mack" by Martha and The Vandellas 2.5 years after it was recorded.

One thing I CAN tell you is that there was little or no marketing push by Chess on this record. Unlike most of The Dells' mid-to-late Cadet releases which were national, or, at the very least, regional and local hits, with massive airplay by WLS and WVON, KGFJ, KHJ, and KRLA, KDIA and KYA, this one got almost no airplay on its initial run in 1966. It may have been just a random casualty of Chess having too many big hits at JUST the time this one was first released. Later, in 1969 or 1970, Chess may have been in-between in having effective releases for The Dells, so they re-released this one to see if it could get some action, as it would have been fresh and new to the public, almost all of whom had never heard it?

I had forgotten about that one. I do have that record. But, that's not what I meant. My point was that none of those producers worked together at Wise World, to further strengthen my point that Wise World only leased finished productions from other independent producers, because Wise World didn't have a production staff of their own (therefore, owned only by investors). It turns out that I was, more or less, on the right track. But it was Clay and Corsi who were the money partners, who didn't have time to produce their own records at Wise World. But they DID have extra cash to press records for "poorer" indie producers, and they thought they also had connections with DJs and distributors to give their clients' records more push than Silvers, Armstead/Collins, and those other fellow indie producers could get on their own. However, it turned out that NONE of those Wise World records did well. The only one I remember even being on the radio in a decent rotation for a decent amount of time, at all, was The Classics' release, and The Foxy and The 7 Hounds was tested as a "newy" for a few plays over a week or maybe two. And I'm not convinced that Silvers couldn't have done that well with it without Clay's help.

That's good enough for me. Bob is a long-time friend of mine, and nobody knows more about Chicago Soul than he does. I guess the reason Don didn't write songs for Wise World, and didn't produce records and run sessions for them is that he was busy working for Chess all through Wise World's run. I guess he and Phil thought they could make some extra money by using their connections with DJs and distributors to take other independent producers' productions, and pay for their pressing, and market them to get some local and regional hits. This was very unlike how he worked at his Boss Records (partnered with Ric Williams), Flash Records (partnered with Flash McKinley), and Clay Records (partnered with a financier), in which HE was chief A&R man and producer, and each of those companies wrote their own songs, published their own music, and produced their own recording sessions. Actually I was just looking through my copy of Bob's book to find that page. I couldn't remember if he had gone into any depth on Wise World. So, thanks for saving me some more work.

It DOES say there that Don started the label. But that doesn't make any sense to me. Neither his name, nor any of his music publishers' names even appears ONCE on ANY of their releases. I seem to remember seeing a couple other Wise World releases, both of which also are unrelated to any of these others. There are 2 records related to Eddie and Mary Silvers, and 2 that are loosely related to each other one to Joshie Armstead, and one to Ric Williams/Bridges/Knight/Eaton (the 2 of which had worked together at a few Chicago labels). But Williams/Armstead never worked with Silvers. This smacks to me as a label owned by a non-music industry wealthy person, who leased tapes from various small independent producers, who wanted badly to get a record out fast, already had recorded it, but didn't have the extra money to get it pressed up. And so they leased their tape, hoping it would get airplay and some sales action, and that they could get a major label to pick it up. I can't EVER remember even ONE instance in which Don Clay was solo owner, or partner in a record label in which he was not the man running the label, or co-running it as the top A&R man and top producer, or one of 2 or 3 top producers (and getting label credit for himself, songwriting credits, and his music publisher was either his alone, or a partnership between him and his other label-owning partner or partners). He just didn't operate the way Wise World seemingly was run. And it also seems strange that I was around town then, and didn't hear that Don was the owner. Why did I never hear who the owner was? Why did I never hear who the head producer and A & R man was? Why didn't I know who the in-house songwriting staff was? Or where they regularly recorded their sessions? Or who their regular arranger(s) was (or were)? Because there were none of any of those people. Don Clay didn't HIRE Eddie Silvers to produce a session for him, and didn't hire Jo Armstead and Bridges, Knight and Eaton to work for him; and IF he hired Phil Orsi to cut a record on himself, you can bet he'd have put his own name on the record as executive producer, or co-producer, if Phil insisted on getting producer credit. The whole operation is just too disjointed. It seems to have been mainly a "paper organisation". Therefore, I am still skeptical, and believe that that "information" placed on Discogs came from hearsay, and long-time false "corroboration" by having been copied and used hundreds of times on The Internet. I would feel better about that bit of "information" if I read or heard it come from an interview of someone in the industry who had worked with Don, done by someone like Bob A. or another trustworthy professional interviewer. Personally, not only am I skeptical about Don Clay having started that label and having been the solo owner or part owner; I am even skeptical that he had any connection to it, until I see evidence to the contrary. I would bet that evidence is sitting in the recorded interviews on "Sitting In The Park". I remember that Bob interviewed Eddie Silvers (or someone close to him), and The Antennas, and some of the people who worked with him at One-derful, as well as people who worked with Ric Williams, and at least one of Bridges, Knight, and Eaton. But, before I spend many hours re-listening to all those interviews, maybe someone else on this thread can point me to some more concrete proof. I am not saying that Discogs is not a reliable source for what they print. They are a great resource for information. But, I have seen a LOT of things in print that originally came from conjecture, then turned to hearsay by someone credible, who was unaware of the original source.

I bought mine when it was out (2nd of 4 press runs), and it had no hiss. I found another copy in a thrift store, with slight wear (3rd pressing). That one also had no hiss.

I never was under the impression that Don Clay owned Wise World. That label seemed to have pressed up productions from unrelated indie producers from all over The City. I wonder if Wise World was just owned by a wealthy businessman who wanted to get into the music business, and just leased productions from independent producers, hoping a few of them would hit it big. They didn't seem to have a single A&R man running the label. Can we get together a discography of that label, and scans of all the releases, so we can try to patch its history together?

So Orsi may have been a partner in Flash, and had a 1/3 ownership in the tape. In any case, Clay and McKinley probably knew about it and didn't mind.

Maybe Orsi knew Don Clay, and/or Flash McKinley, and asked them if they had any extra background tracks he could use to make a new record, and he couldn't afford to pay for a recording session, and didn't want to share the profits with a label owner (wanted it to come out on his own label), and could write the words to an existing tune (but wasn't any good at writing music), and they, or one of them needed cash and could take in needed money, with Corsi singing new words over it, there would be little chance of anyone recognising it as "Mr. Shy". They knew there was little chance of Orsi getting a monster hit with it. Orsi could also have gotten it from Marshall Thompson, who had been the arranger, and may have ended up with a tape copy (it may even be an alternate take or preliminary mix of it. He could possibly have gotten it from a friend who worked in the recording studio where it was made (One-derful's, Ter-Mar (Chess'), or Universal); and it may have been unlabled, and no one knew what it was, so they said the worker could have it. Eventually, recording studios toss out unlabled, unclaimed old tapes, because they need the shelf space to store things from on-going jobs. And, so, the friend sold it to Corsi to make a little money, and help out his friend. Didn't Ed Cody work at Chess' Ter-Mar Studio before founding his own United Technique Studio? Cody may have had the extra preview mix left over and a few years after "Mr. Shy", let Corsi use it. There are lots of possibilities.

I bought the 2nd and 3rd issues. The first one I got (2nd issue) at United Distributors for 50¢ (I had a friend who worked there, so I bought all my new records wholesale), and found the second one in a thrift shop, maybe a year later. I was still attending university in L.A., so, only returned to Chicago during Thanksgiving week, Christmas Break, Spring Break or early June. But, I do remember "Mr. Shy" on heavy rotation on WVON, and selling well in shops when I returned, and it hadn't made the radio nor been in shops in L.A. Based on my flipping through hundreds of thousands of 45s between 1967 and 1972, I would guess that the 4th issue (with "Flash" in larger font) is, by far the rarest, with the first issue (with "Records" lined up to the beginning of The "F" in "Flash" being the 2nd rarest.

Okay then.... So the singer on this record is NOT the Chicago Blues belter, Gloria Shannon! Then, I have no idea who it is. The voice is not really distinct enough to recognise.

As I remember it, Flash Records was owned by Don Clay and William "Flash" McKinley. Vapac Music was owned by The Leaner Brothers (George and Ernie), who owned One-derful, Ma-V-lus, M-Pac, and Toddlin' Town Records, as well as United Record Distributors. Naturally, when Clay produced the record, rather than go directly to his bosses at One-derful, to make a distribution deal, he would first have a small press run to give some to local DJs, and to hawk to the regular R&B/Soul record shops, so he could get airplay, and early sales, to be in a better bargaining position, to get a better regional or national distribution deal with The Leaner's United Record Distributors. Thus, the first pressing wouldn't include Vapac Music, because The Leaners had no part in the record's early action. The label misprint initiated a new pressing (which probably would have occurred, anyway, due to initial good reviews, lots of airplay on Chicagoland radio stations, and early sales to stores. Once the distribution deal with United was made, all, or a good chunk of The Leaners' portion would come in the form of the royalties payments for Vapac Music's share of the publication rights. I think Vogue Music was co-owned by Clay and McKinley. If not, then by Clay, alone. Clay had a good relationship with most of the key Chi-Town DJs, because he had known most of them through The Leaners' uncle, legendary Chicago R&B DJ, Al Benson.

Billy's "Mr. Shy" is one of my favourite songs.

A fine job of deduction, piecing the pieces of the puzzle together. Your scenario outline above jibes with my memory. The first self-distributed issue of the record only within the City of Chicago and to it's local radio stations' DJs started to get airplay in February 1969. Soon, certainly no later than March, "Ain't Got No Problems" was being played, and records were being sold in the stores. I returned to Chi-Town on school break in late March or early April, to hear the record on WVON, see that my cousin and some friends had it, and bought a copy, which had a catalogue number of 3001, following along after the establishment of a label catalogue number series starting with Drake and The En-Solids' 3000. The rushing to have new press runs out resulted in the reversion back to using the pressing code. It also fits in with my theory that Alteen expanded to the two storefront buildings from initially having one, rather than starting with renting two, and giving one up through lack of funds. Self distributing to local stores, at first wouldn't have drained their coffers, because they were probably getting wholesale record price back in cash by selling directly to the stores. After the record started selling big locally, Alteen would have needed extra space to store records, take on a few more workers, hire a receptionist and give her a desk, and give the office a "professional look", because they were now a viable "Record Company". Usually, such labels started out as a husband/wife/and best friend "hobby" managed from the couple's home (the way Al-Tog started) - then, after their first record that hits sells well locally - and cash is rolling in from direct wholesale sales to record shops, they open a small office (as Al-Tog did). IF they get a regional or national hit, they get a national distribution deal, and need to look professional, so they need to expand to a larger office, sometimes even in a more prestigious location. Looking at all these different labels allowed me to notice that legendary Chicago singer, Billy McGregor (misspelled as McGreagor)(Cousin of Detroit drummer/producer, George McGregor), was also involved in Bill Meeks' tiny label, in addition to Marshall Thompson, of The Chi-Lites, who had been a drummer before his group hit big, and was an arranger and probably participated in songwriting with the label.

Yes, I meant WLS in Chicago. But, actually, it got some plays for at least a short time, but I don't think it charted.

This matches what I remembered watching the progress of the record in real time. Most of the Alteen copies I saw were well-played, while the Chess copies were mostly mint. I never saw them in people's houses. People I knew had all bought the Alteen. Many of the Chess copies we see now probably came from boxes that stayed in Chess' offices, or in distributors' warehouses, and never got to stores.

I knew Sunday made it to WLS. That St. Louis KATZ survey is interesting, with DJ, "Bob B.Q.", "Boys Will Be Boys" by the Fidels making #4, The Corner Boys, and "The Friends of Destination" doing a cover of "Going In Circles" (must have been a St. Louis local "imposter group".