The North South Divide

Its grim oop North

Never ever done any Southern nighters darn Sarf apart from "t" Undred Club many years ago so I am asking the question rather than telling.

Just recently I went to a massive scooter rally on The Isle of Wight where I did The Hipshakers who had advertised a Northernsoul room.

My experience of this was not too impressed to say the least the evening started with a lady dumping a complete canister of talc then proceeded to disappear for the rest of the evening this was then followed by a procession of chaps spilling beer whilst walking across the dance floor. Later a clutch of trendy bendies hit the floor complete with bottles of blue stuff and yup, spilled this on the floor.

Sean Chapman tried valiantly to stop this but to no avail.

The music went from very good at the start to dia fookin bollockale towards the end with every clich being presented.

Now I know this was a scooter rally but I just want to ask the question if this is what happens darn sarf on the nighter scene?

I'm not trying to pick a fight and I'm not trying to diss any promoter, I just want to know?

I did a thread on here back in 2005 entitled 'Northern northern soul v Southern northern soul'. Wanted to post a link as there were some relevant and interesting comments. Worryingly though topics from that far back are now no longer available..

Edited September 9, 200915 yr by Simsy

I've been to a couple darn sarf, and dancefloor discipline wasn't a major concern. I would also say it is shared by some clubs run by younger promoters, some mod dos, and (from what I've heard) some European dos as well.

On the other hand I went to the 100 club for the first time the other day, and it was brilliant, though as it was an anniversary it may not be representative.

Bear in mind there is a school of thought different to that at your average Northern whippet-eating nighter; that seems to go along the lines "rules are for control freaks, and they intimidate or discourage newbies".

Importantly, there isn't the cultural history of "the dancefloor is for dancers", and nightclub tradition seems to provide the template.

Its a particular bugbear of mine, but neither do I like the bullying or undiplomatic approach sometimes taken at more traditional places up here.

It is worth bearing in mind that what most of those places have that many traditional nighters don't, along with the pissheads on the dancefloor is lots more young people.

I haven't been to enough places to generalise though, but I would hazard a guess that not all the traditions of Northern Soul went South (and elsewhere) with the music.

Edited September 9, 200915 yr by spirit

I've been to quite a few both north and south and I would say that there are few differences. The differences that so exist, generally speaking, are:

Younger punters down south

More oldies played up north

People stay longer up north

Modern soul better up north

Allnighters more popular up north

As I said, they're generalisations and there will be notable exceptions but that's just my view.

was also at the iow scooter do

experiance has taught me to stay away from the main scooter night events as these tend to be for the skinhead throw yer beer all over dancefloor knuckle draggers,,

went to the crown in ryde friday and this was like a typical northern night round our way and enjoyed this

on saturday night we were fortunate to be invited by some wolverhampton lads to attend their do at the sands hotel in sandown and we had a brilliant night albeit it was all classic oldies

would very much like to thank martin and especially dave who dj,ed all night and all the wolverhampton boys and girls

As an old dinosor as stated by some people about me,in general terms ive been doing nighters etc for over 30 years,

My views are my own and i aint picking fights here...but

In the south the 100 club is the best nighter going,but i am very biased towards this event,but it does piss me off sometimes when younger people tend to march on the dance floor with beer in hand,but once told it stops.

Evening soul nights in the south are at most times very friendly with very little hassle.

In the north,in general venues like Lifeline , Barnsley, Burnley, Radcliffe, Bishops wood and Rugby are out and out wonderfull venues full of friendly people,good music,i suppose it can be intimidating for first timers,but youll get over it once inside,ive found the promoters up north are more approachable and will do most things to help out.

As for dancefloors ...i dont venture out on them too much these days(i look more like "my left foot")attempting to do my thing,But i do notice things ie beer,f***ing about etc.

We have to embrace the younger people who are into soul if we want our wonderfull scene to continue,we aint getting any younger,some youngsters only have to told once and they are ok about it,others ie the lunatic fringe type ...well dump em and fast.

My comments are my own views and intended to upset folk..........but in general we ALL love Soul Music thats why we go..

Toby

Yes there is a difference Simon

scooter rallies oop north play better northern than down south and the crowd more receptive to whats played, a lot of 70s/80s gets played at rallies down here except when im djn then they get PROPPA northern

as for nighters, from what ive found is that there aint a nighter crowd down south that could sustain a nighter without our northern friends support, 100 club and exception but then at times that struggles to fill up,

and as for Hipshaker the crowd looked like they was on their last night at Uni party but where else can you get a pint on the Saturday night so loads of cheesy music and happy smiling students rolled in with your im a scooterist once a year brigade and a recipe for truely awful scenes of "aint no mountain high enough" hands all going up in the air and a sing along to boot

time for an early Bearsy exit

was also at the iow scooter do

experiance has taught me to stay away from the main scooter night events as these tend to be for the skinhead throw yer beer all over dancefloor knuckle draggers,,

went to the crown in ryde friday and this was like a typical northern night round our way and enjoyed this

on saturday night we were fortunate to be invited by some wolverhampton lads to attend their do at the sands hotel in sandown and we had a brilliant night albeit it was all classic oldies

would very much like to thank martin and especially dave who dj,ed all night and all the wolverhampton boys and girls

Totally agree.....The main room of most Rally events is a mish mash of Oldies, Ska and a bit of summat for everyone! No one will ever respect the "no beer on the dancefloor" policy that always goes without saying at a Soul night!!!

However.....alot of rallies will have a separate Northern room and the majority have respect for the floor. Hemsby and the old Shires rally were always great for me. But for some of the others with just a main room..... The only real soul to be found was......The sole of ya shoes stuck to the dancefloor, due to the amount of beer spilt on it!!!

Now I know this was a scooter rally but I just want to ask the question if this is what happens darn sarf on the nighter scene?

I don't honestly believe there's a nighter scene down South as such. True you have the 100 Club, but the only other allnighters that I can think of are Crossfire (2 to 3 times a year) this is a predominantly Mod event, being promoted by The New Untouchables. Or at least that's the impression that I get. Then there's the Bank Holiday Allnighters in Brighton and just recently Riverside Soul (Mike E) have started an allnighter in Gloucester (more South West than South).

The South seems to be predominantly more soul nights/evenings. I feel that there are more people willing to attend allnighters in the North. Also the distances that people have to travel affects attendances. Up North you've got in my opinion a better motorway/road network (M6/M1/M62),also cross pennine train services between towns like York, Sheffield, Manchester & Crewe makes travelling easier. Down here we've got the M25, a glorified car park. Yes there are some southerners that travel regularly up north to attend events, but how many northerners would travel for 4+ hours to attend an event that may finish at 3 or 4 am? I recently posted on another forum that people are probably more willing to travel longer distances to attend an allnighter (8+ hours of soul), than the same distance for a soul night that could be over in 4^1/2 hours.

Finally I don't think you can compare the music & behaviour of people attending a scooter rally allnighter and those at a soul allnighter. At a soul allnighter people are there firstly for the music, at a scooter rally they're there predominantly for the scooters and an allnighter is a great venue to remain pissed allnight with others you may not see until the next rally (which nowadays seems to be every other weekend)!

Also too many soul night djs and not enough Nighter djs dont help

me i love travelling oop north to hear something different and get away from all these Shandy drinking southern poofters

get away from all these Shandy drinking southern poofters

Mr Pot calling Mr Kettle!

a lot of the points raised are spot on....dont get passed stoke so not gonna compare with up north for soul niters and unlike the 80s when i went to every rally dont go to that many now but the ones i do go on are more alcohol fuelled with scooters and 'the social' being more important to most than the music.....this then also means there tend to be more OF THE SAME oldies played...

at our local rally in weston last year i heard frank wilson 6 times over the weekend in two venues...this year it seemed to be alfie davidson 5 times ! most of the nites will be like this (maybe they are the 'on any format 'venues?)...hemsby and camber have top soul rooms though...not just cos ive played them either !! but think they are all scooter loving soul djs rather than soul loving scooter djs.......never done hip shaker but must say im suprised , for some reason imagined it too be better

as far as niters ..not many down here in the southwest.....the riverside niter hopefully will be the first of many...mainly uptempo 60s stuff with lots of semi known although still a few 'soul nite oldies' ...tunes aswell as punters ! but a great nite without loads of doubles ...and good dancefloor manners

dave thorley tried a different approach at berkley though which sadly wasnt supported...more unknown and towards seventies.....although still some classics so should have been supported more IMHO, was a great venue...

most of the soul nites here in the south west have good dancefloor manners.....but not many youngsters its true......Bristol however is different will always get enthusiastic youngsters with drinks but normally leave them on tables once told...and never any bad attitudes or trouble...this is after all , as banksy put it 'the mild mild west'...

will avta get up north soon !

dean

Also too many soul night djs and not enough Nighter djs dont help

me i love travelling oop north to hear something different and get away from all these Shandy drinking southern poofters

Speak for yerself ducks..

Agree about not enough nighters in the South though.

Lets face it, it's Northern soul for a reason innit?

Speak for yerself ducks..

Agree about not enough nighters in the South though.

Lets face it, it's Northern soul for a reason innit?

Ian you keep on about not enough nighters in the south,well ill have to do something about it then ,maybe i should extend the hours at Groovesville till 06.00am what do you think then eh.

With our venue it costs no more for 04.00 am finish than it would for a 06.00 am finish,but im sure we would not get enough in for a 06.00am finish,prove me wrong and ill go for it howzat

Toby

Ian you keep on about not enough nighters in the south,well ill have to do something about it then ,maybe i should extend the hours at Groovesville till 06.00am what do you think then eh.

With our venue it costs no more for 04.00 am finish than it would for a 06.00 am finish,but im sure we would not get enough in for a 06.00am finish,prove me wrong and ill go for it howzat

Toby

6am finish would be fantastic mate.

No disrespect to the current venue, it's great. However if it were at the old venue with a 6am finish I think it really would be worth it, as the size of the place/dancefloor would definitely warrant folks traveling down from the north (not to mention south/midlands) on a regular basis.

Maybe this depends on what people call the North and South.. For many up North its below Watford i guess but Rugby would be South for many of them real ooooooooop North folk..

Even the 100 club is helped by Northern folk who moved down South/ London at some point..

Does it matter if the South aint got so many niters??? enough good soul nights and how many folk would stay to the end anyway.. As Toby says, a 4am seems pretty good but a later licence could be sorted if folk want it..

On the whole we have people getting long in the tooth and 4am is late enough i guess..

No point starting a topic about North V South and then talking about a scooter rally event really.. I can't comment as i stopped going late 80s to these events, it was soul first and scooters second and i did not like how the dancefloor was swamped with beer, blood, spit and dead bodies at times , plus the music on offer was not what i wanted...

There is a North/ North divide with regards to the oldies scene and the more forward thinking night too...

We will see a dramatic change with regards to the niter scene in the not too distant future, many folk who aint spring chickens will not be able to sustain a whole night and some good younger crowd have come through but not in enough numbers to keep the scene as big as it is now...

There will always be a underground soul scene and for that i am happy, don't care too much if its 40 people in a bar or 300 in an all niter, as long as we get our fix of soul..

Different game for the big promoters though,they will be chasing the ever dwindling crowd... It will be a brave person to risk cash up front and hope to make a return on there money..

6am finish would be fantastic mate.

No disrespect to the current venue, it's great. However if it were at the old venue with a 6am finish I think it really would be worth it, as the size of the place/dancefloor would definitely warrant folks traveling down from the north (not to mention south/midlands) on a regular basis.

Sadly Ian,we no longer have any contact with the old venue,as you know he was a wrong un of the highest order,(cheet/thief/wanker)etc,who after upseting us can no longer run a bath let alone a nightclub,

But i will have a good long hard think about the 06.00 finish that i will promise

Toby

Finally I don't think you can compare the music & behaviour of people attending a scooter rally allnighter and those at a soul allnighter. At a soul allnighter people are there firstly for the music, at a scooter rally they're there predominantly for the scooters and an allnighter is a great venue to remain pissed allnight with others you may not see until the next rally (which nowadays seems to be every other weekend)!

Exactly..Trust me,from all my years on the scooter scene,most of em don't give a shite about our PRECIOUS "northern soul" From about 25+ scooterists from where i used to live I was the only one really interested in it..These days I go to nighters..They still go to scooter rallies. Simple.

Easy really...Northerners are good humoured...good looking...intelligent individuals and Southerners are...well...from the south

Jobs a good en

Easy really...Northerners are good humoured...good looking...intelligent individuals and Southerners are...well...from the south

Jobs a good en

where abouts in London was you born Beeks

oh and Norverners talk funny

've been to a couple darn sarf, and dancefloor discipline wasn't a major concern. I would also say it is shared by some clubs run by younger promoters, some mod dos, and (from what I've heard) some European dos as well.

On the other hand I went to the 100 club for the first time the other day, and it was brilliant, though as it was an anniversary it may not be representative.

Bear in mind there is a school of thought different to that at your average Northern whippet-eating nighter; that seems to go along the lines "rules are for control freaks, and they intimidate or discourage newbies".

Importantly, there isn't the cultural history of "the dancefloor is for dancers", and nightclub tradition seems to provide the template.

Its a particular bugbear of mine, but neither do I like the bullying or undiplomatic approach sometimes taken at more traditional places up here.

It is worth bearing in mind that what most of those places have that many traditional nighters don't, along with the pissheads on the dancefloor is lots more young people.

I haven't been to enough places to generalise though, but I would hazard a guess that not all the traditions of Northern Soul went South (and elsewhere) with the music.

Lee, you are one of the very few people who can comment on the state of the scene, because you really do get around to a lot of differing venues. Only trouble is, you are fairly new to it, and much younger than most of us......so you see things from a slightly different perspective. Pity there aren't another 200 like you, same age group, same outlook, oh, and preferably female.....

Phil.

It's always been a travelling scene and I think it's a good thing the majority of the nighter action is in the North. If it were an even split or the majority were in the midlands/south, then perhaps the 'northern soul' tag would be redundant. I couldn't bear that. Northerners have always had the best musical taste in the country, so in part it's best the way things are I spose?

6am finish would be fantastic mate.

No disrespect to the current venue, it's great. However if it were at the old venue with a 6am finish I think it really would be worth it, as the size of the place/dancefloor would definitely warrant folks traveling down from the north (not to mention south/midlands) on a regular basis.

Little-Stevie, you going to Wigan (I fookin luv sayin that!)

Don't forget your talc

Lee, you are one of the very few people who can comment on the state of the scene, because you really do get around to a lot of differing venues. Only trouble is, you are fairly new to it, and much younger than most of us......so you see things from a slightly different perspective. Pity there aren't another 200 like you, same age group, same outlook, oh, and preferably female.....

Ta, Phil. Was very lucky with the transport last couple of years and made the most of it. Will be scaling back now, being more sensible and picky - luckily we've got lots to choose from - particularly in the North - and your little nighter is one of the best of 'em. See you there soon.

The North South Divide

Its grim oop North

The music went from very good at the start to dia fookin bollockale towards the end with every cliché being presented.

Now I know this was a scooter rally but I just want to ask the question if this is what happens darn sarf on the nighter scene?

I'm not trying to pick a fight and I'm not trying to diss any promoter, I just want to know?

Imber boy..

Getting back to the IOW, up at the Crown we cater for all Northern tastes..

But at the end of the day its a scooter rally first, northern do 2nd..

but we do aim to make it the best purely Northern do on that weekend..

not easy when you have dj's from differnt soul/scooter back grounds.

For me personally Sunday was the best night up there as it was back of the box stuff..

a real mix of sounds.. stuff I have not played before.. stuff I was worried about playing... the best stuff..

but it's down to the dj who's on.. etc..

I know next year Pete Kelross (Bisley) is changing the way some of the dj's go about there business up there..

and he will be pushing more towards the do's we all pay to go to each week..

it's never going to really happen as it is a rally but if we get 96% right it will be worth it..

but we just done our 6th year there and had a good crowd in, apart from Sunday but it filled up later..

saying that Sean and Pete Talk of the south boys.. got it right the year they had the Northern Allnighter at the IOW...

that was awesome...

was it 2002? any one, scooterists soulies on here?

Edited September 10, 200915 yr by mischief

I'm more interested in the EAST/WEST divide dunno why just following soul source protocol and intejecting with insecure midlife crisis bollocks...sorry.

Edited September 10, 200915 yr by PaulDonnelly

I don't honestly believe there's a nighter scene down South as such. True you have the 100 Club, but the only other allnighters that I can think of are Crossfire (2 to 3 times a year) this is a predominantly Mod event, being promoted by The New Untouchables. Or at least that's the impression that I get. Then there's the Bank Holiday Allnighters in Brighton and just recently Riverside Soul (Mike E) have started an allnighter in Gloucester (more South West than South).

The South seems to be predominantly more soul nights/evenings. I feel that there are more people willing to attend allnighters in the North. Also the distances that people have to travel affects attendances. Up North you've got in my opinion a better motorway/road network (M6/M1/M62),also cross pennine train services between towns like York, Sheffield, Manchester & Crewe makes travelling easier. Down here we've got the M25, a glorified car park. Yes there are some southerners that travel regularly up north to attend events, but how many northerners would travel for 4+ hours to attend an event that may finish at 3 or 4 am? I recently posted on another forum that people are probably more willing to travel longer distances to attend an allnighter (8+ hours of soul), than the same distance for a soul night that could be over in 4^1/2 hours.

Finally I don't think you can compare the music & behaviour of people attending a scooter rally allnighter and those at a soul allnighter. At a soul allnighter people are there firstly for the music, at a scooter rally they're there predominantly for the scooters and an allnighter is a great venue to remain pissed allnight with others you may not see until the next rally (which nowadays seems to be every other weekend)!

I held the first Allnighter in Gloucester for many many years on the 14th August. We had over 300 through the door with many travellers from all over, including Derbyshire, The Midlands, Manchester and throughout the South and South West. The DJ's were seasoned Noighter DJ's: Sean Chapman, Ted Massey, Nige Brown, Des Parker plus other quality local and regional DJ's.

The next one will be on january 29th 2010 with the second room being DJ based rather than a strict music policy. DJ's lined up so far are: Mick H, Neil Rushton, John Weston, Killa, Sean, Des, etc and one or two more guest DJ's. For those of you that came, Ian Included I think you will share with me that the venue is superb and the music in the Main room from a Northern Perspective was spot on. The second room was Motown and Club soul classics. I will not be doing that next time as indicated above, as felt that it attracted a too diverse crowd. I want to see the venue include people who are happy to move between both rooms rather than stick in the same room all night and hope that by having two Soul Rooms one playing more mainstream nighter music and the other allowing DJ's to play what they want--- from a soul perspective of course.

Hope to see some more of you from OOP North at the next one. Plans also for 2 others next year, in May and November. Got the scope for more If I want to run more.

Mike

I'm more interested in the EAST/WEST divide dunno why just following soul source protocol and intejecting with insecure midlife crisis bollocks...sorry.

My b******s had a mid life crisis years ago

Malc Burton

north and south thats all bullshit, what bout the east, the best djs the best record collecters and the best dancers and most of all the passion, i remember the first allnighter at the 100 club six carlos came down we blew the place away dance floor wise, and we took in charge of mr.ms in the early days we always had the back section, to many nighters to mention in the early days the lads from the east always had an impact on nighters so next time you ask about the north and the south dont forget the east.

Billy keep on keepin on u get my drift

Debbie - Im from London & i went to alot of Northern Soul/Mod nights around London, Brighton & Southend from The early 80s, we had some great nights at The Mousetrap, Almost Grown, The Underground, Capitol Soul Club, 100 Club, Scenesville & many others, (i found my old membership cards the other day ), with the music being all 60s & alot of the folk dressed in retro & vintage clothing, it was blinding!

When i moved to Lancashire 6 years ago, i did have a bit of a shock, the first night i went to in Wigan, i was the only woman dressed in vintage clothing, but i made a few friends that night & got a few of the ladies back into wearing a good bit of vintage

Some of the venues up north do tend to have a bit more talc on the floor, one of these days im going to slip over & brake everything!

I still hear some great 60s music, but we do tend to hear alot of the same tracks, when there is still alot of old music that does not get played, which is a shame!

I dont mind the odd 70s track, but that modern stuff leaves me cold, i cant even stand the music on the radio, ask Ian!

Im now living in Lincolnshire & have found a few great nights in Peterbourgh, Nottingham etc...

I never went to the Casino, being a bit too young, some of my older friends did & one of them left me all his original Casino patches, i have put them on my bag in memory of my best friend, as i know this is what he would of wanted!

I had a fantastic time Down South & im still having a great time now

The only problem that i have with the North is that its "TOO COLD!"

Edited September 10, 200915 yr by parkash

I'm more interested in the EAST COAST/WEST COAST divide

Tru dat.

Edited September 11, 200915 yr by spirit

i wouldn't take is as a reflection of the south in general. as mischief said first of all its a scooter rally, then not really a reflection of your average scooter rally as it is the biggest one in the calendar ...... and overall more like a festival of sorts with the many different venues.

as for the music in the talk of the south room, that was purely the responsibility of sean and pete ... who both undoubtedly know their stuff. i popped in and out and it always looked busy and they ramped up the atmosphere towards the end.

as for our event itself, bear in mind that we run events in ryde throughout the year and attract a small-ish number of locals i'm sure to the rally event. and also it is well attended so there will be a variety of people.

the drinks on the floor issue, something different. we told security to look out for this so will bear in mind for next year.

imber - nice to meet you, enjoyed a chat with you and your mate about patrick hernandez and the 2nd world war german occupation of the iow!

off topic posts removed

if wanna post scooter pics post them up in freebasing or gallery albums