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Which release is considered the rarest ?

Thelma 103(a) - Emanuel Laskey - Lucky To Be Loved By You

Which release is considered the rarest ?

Thelma 103(a) - Emanuel Laskey - Lucky To Be Loved By You

Hi Kev....always thought " lucky to be loved by you" was released only on Wild Duce...but has the Thelma release number on the 45.

Trust you n Sharon are well mate.

atb

Andy

Which release is considered the rarest ?

Thelma 103(a) - Emanuel Laskey - Lucky To Be Loved By You

Hi Kev....always thought " lucky to be loved by you" was released only on Wild Duce...but has the Thelma release number on the 45.

Never seen the Thelma release of LTBLBY

A decent contender for the rarest on Thelma is probably Martha Star - Love Is The Only Solution

The issue is hard (scan of mine below). The WDJ also exists but is a real tough one.

Otherwise a WDJ of Joe Matthews - She's My Beauty Queen. Anyone got one?

Cheers

Richard

Edited November 6, 201113 yr by Premium Stuff

Not sure which the rarest is (could be Martha Starr) but I do know that the UK were onto the label early on with Guy Stevens SUE label releasing Joe Matthews - Sorry Ain't Good Enough from the Thelma lable.

Regards TOTP

I wonder how close "Peace Loving Man" came to a UK release, it was advertised as an new import in Rhythm and Blues monthly in 1966!

My all-time favourite label, just need the Alberta Adams for a complete run.

Edited November 8, 201113 yr by Tony Smith

Loads of stuff including Debonnaires and other Detroit groups were released on UK labels (manage by soul buffs) and supported by the majors such as Polydor and Warner Bros (similar to Grapevine in the 80's backed by RCA). Just think on how many UK releases there could have been form Thelma, Solid Hit and other Detroit Labels. However, this perhaps accounts for later discoveries, having to obtain the records from the US instead of your local outlet.

I wonder how close "Peace Loving Man" came to a UK release, it was advertised as an new import in Rhythm and Blues monthly in 1966!

My all-time favourite label, just need the Alberta Adams for a complete run.

Tony did Martha Star...I wanna be your girl...ever come out on a w/d?

I think my fav on the label is Rose Batiste...i can't leave you......although I haven't heard some of the early releases

Tony did Martha Star...I wanna be your girl...ever come out on a w/d?

I think my fav on the label is Rose Batiste...i can't leave you......although I haven't heard some of the early releases

Hi Andy, hope you're well mate, never seen IWBYG as a demo, or heard of it, unless someone on here knows different?

Hi Andy, hope you're well mate, never seen IWBYG as a demo, or heard of it, unless someone on here knows different?

cheers Tony...doin ok...trust your well mate

Thelma 103(a) - Emanuel Laskey - Lucky To Be Loved By You

I have the full label run except 103 and I don't think it exists. incidentaly the matrix number of 102B is ZTSC97690 and 104A is ZTSC97693 indicating two missing numbers this adds value to the missing number except one of these matrix numbers is used on a Reflections release on Golden World cant remember which one though.

I have the full label run except 103 and I don't think it exists. incidentally the matrix number of 102B is ZTSC97690 and 104A is ZTSC97693 indicating two missing numbers this adds value to the missing number except one of these matrix numbers is used on a Reflections release on Golden World cant remember which one though.

I have the full label run, as well. "Lucky To Be Loved By You" was never released nor even slated for 103 (or any other number by Thelma. Number 103 and the two missing matrix numbers were slated for two songs by a female artist named Pat Smith. I surely would have liked to hear those. I suppose people have asked Don Davis' son what happened to those master tapes. I can't figure out why Davis thought that tiny Wild Deuce could get that release any kind of decent national distribution. I think it was the very best (and most "Motownish" Thelma recording.

Here's an excerpt from Soulful Detroit's "Webisode" on Thelma Records:

"There are many vinyl collectors living in hope of finding a copy of Thelma #103, but they don't exist. That catalogue number was allocated to Pat Smith's unreleased recording, "Going Through A Whirlpool" - Ron Murphy found the documentation in United Sound's archives." I remember Ron, himself, telling me that he found that. He had remembered Pat as a local Detroit singer. Clearly Smith's record was cancelled, without even demos pressed, as Golden World used one of the missing ZTSC numbers.

Edited November 9, 201113 yr by RobbK

I have the full label run, as well. "Lucky To Be Loved By You" was never released nor even slated for 103 (or any other number by Thelma. Number 103 and the two missing matrix numbers were slated for two songs by a female artist named Pat Smith. I surely would have liked to hear those. I suppose people have asked Don Davis' son what happened to those master tapes. I can't figure out why Davis thought that tiny Wild Deuce could get that release any kind of decent national distribution. I think it was the very best (and most "Motownish" Thelma recording.

Here's an excerpt from Soulful Detroit's "Webisode" on Thelma Records:

"There are many vinyl collectors living in hope of finding a copy of Thelma #103, but they don't exist. That catalogue number was allocated to Pat Smith's unreleased recording, "Going Through A Whirlpool" - Ron Murphy found the documentation in United Sound's archives." I remember Ron, himself, telling me that he found that. He had remembered Pat as a local Detroit singer. Clearly Smith's record was cancelled, without even demos pressed, as Golden World used one of the missing ZTSC numbers.

Robb,

The two Pat Smith sides were put out on a Goldmine "Thelma" CD, "Whirlpool" being the original of Marvelous Ray on Abner, it's on Youtube not sure how to Embed.

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Edited November 9, 201113 yr by Tony Smith

I wonder how close "Peace Loving Man" came to a UK release, it was advertised as an new import in Rhythm and Blues monthly in 1966!

My all-time favourite label, just need the Alberta Adams for a complete run.

Ha! the last copy I was looking for to complete my Thelma label run was....Alberta Adams! So here we go, despite the white Demo game Alberta Adamns easily the hardest to track down (especially in good nick). Had a spare in the meantime but sadly already traded it away mate!

atb

marc

whcih answers the question which is the rarestyour

Does anyone have that Goldmine CD and can send me soundfiles of the Pat Smith sides?

I'm not the biggest fan of this label (a lot of the tracks sound sort of like generic detroit to me) but two awesome cuts for me are joe matthews "she's my beauty queen" and jimmy gilford "nobody loves me like my baby".

Sadly I cant remove the ebay logo.

Thelma in particular Joe Matthews Beauty Queen? So What's the connection to Riley's from here is it just Detroit?

Two versions of this. Does the other take look like the above?

Above best version imo and I think the dearer one.

Sadly I cant remove the ebay logo.

Oh, they were so great! Tried to win them but got outbid when they were up on ebay about a year or so ago. Did you win them ?

I'm not the biggest fan of this label (a lot of the tracks sound sort of like generic detroit to me) but two awesome cuts for me are joe matthews "she's my beauty queen" and jimmy gilford "nobody loves me like my baby".

de gustibus non est disputandum ... one of my favourite labels, such an important Detroit record company, so many great tracks, in fact all except maybe for the 2 sides by The Magnificent Seven (which is also amongst the hardest to get on this logo).

Edited November 10, 201113 yr by Marc Forrest

No Mark just pinched them off with Snap & Drag.

On 10/11/2011 at 02:53, Prophonics 2029 said:

Thelma in particular Joe Matthews Beauty Queen? So What's the connection to Riley's from here is it just Detroit?

The connection between Riley's and Thelma is pretty thin, other than both being located in Detroit, and that Joey King Fish worked for both companies, and I believe that Melvin Davis worked on a few recordings for both companies. But, if you recorded in Detroit in the mid 1960s, you were more or less forced to use at least a few musicians that other small R&B/Soul firms were using. Joey King Fish was Diamond Jim Riley's main A & R man for a few years, while he wrote songs and produced several sessions at Thelma, but was less important there (as they had Don Davis, Norman Whitfield, Don Juan Mancha, Clay McMurray and James Gopphine producing as well).  Although, he DID lead their in-house band during much of their existence, and took over as A&R Man and chief producer when Davis left the company for Golden World.

Edited November 16, 20213 yr by Robbk

Does anyone have that Goldmine CD and can send me soundfiles of the Pat Smith sides?

I've certainly got one of them, Whirpool, but it's the same record as Marvelous Ray on Abner - not a cover as someone says above, it's the same recording. There is an instrumental version as well on the Goldmine cd.

Robb if I have the files I will PM you.

I've certainly got one of them, Whirpool, but it's the same record as Marvelous Ray on Abner - not a cover as someone says above, it's the same recording. There is an instrumental version as well on the Goldmine cd.

Robb if I have the files I will PM you.

Marvelous Ray..what a nice 45. Still regret having sold that on ebay (where you bought it off me )

Marvelous Ray..what a nice 45. Still regret having sold that on ebay (where you bought it off me )

I used to get them off TImes Square Records, Must have had 6 or 7 copies on repeat visits, this was long long ago though - 1998-99, since then, only had two or three.

Marvelous Ray..what a nice 45. Still regret having sold that on ebay (where you bought it off me )

Loved it since it was c/u as Baby Washington "going round in circles", only got a copy about 3 months ago though.

I have the full label run, as well. "Lucky To Be Loved By You" was never released nor even slated for 103 (or any other number by Thelma. Number 103 and the two missing matrix numbers were slated for two songs by a female artist named Pat Smith. I surely would have liked to hear those. I suppose people have asked Don Davis' son what happened to those master tapes. I can't figure out why Davis thought that tiny Wild Deuce could get that release any kind of decent national distribution. I think it was the very best (and most "Motownish" Thelma recording.

Here's an excerpt from Soulful Detroit's "Webisode" on Thelma Records:

"There are many vinyl collectors living in hope of finding a copy of Thelma #103, but they don't exist. That catalogue number was allocated to Pat Smith's unreleased recording, "Going Through A Whirlpool" - Ron Murphy found the documentation in United Sound's archives." I remember Ron, himself, telling me that he found that. He had remembered Pat as a local Detroit singer. Clearly Smith's record was cancelled, without even demos pressed, as Golden World used one of the missing ZTSC numbers.

Re. Pat Smith; butch had a United acetate by pat smith that he used to spin at the 100 club in the early 9ts. I think it was called "time to think it over", and uptempo dancer with female backing. He said he bought it off tim ashibende, who found it at either billy kennedy or emanuel laskey's home. According to tim, it was supposed to have been considered for a Thelma release.

Yeh, I remember that, thought he had "Whirlpool" too?

From Billy Kennedy I think?, some other good stuff came out of that haul.

The connection between Riley's and Thelma is pretty thin, other than both being located in Detroit, and that Joey King Fish worked for both companies, and I believe that Melvin Davis worked on a few recordings for both companies. But, if you recorded in Detroit in the mid 1960s, you were more or less forced to use at least a few musicians that other small R&B/Soul firms were using. Joey King Fish was Diamond Jim Riley's main A & R man for a few years, while he wrote songs and produced a couple sessions at Thelma, but was less important there (as they had Don Davis, Norman Whitfield, Don Juan Mancha, Clay McMurray and James Gophinne producing as well).

Hi Rob hope is all well .. I was with Joey last week in Detroit and I did ask him about Rileys which he confirmed he worked there but when i Asked him about the Tempo's cut of " I never forget " which as the same backing as you know as Joe Matthews he knew nothing about it .. maybe be the case he as forgotten as this as been the case with some artist's and producers etc .. we are talking about 50 yrs long time to remember everything , another intresting thing Fab budford glanton who also recored with The Tempos on Riley's stated it was not the same group as the Diamond jim 45 .

I've certainly got one of them, Whirpool, but it's the same record as Marvelous Ray on Abner - not a cover as someone says above, it's the same recording. There is an instrumental version as well on the Goldmine cd. Robb if I have the files I will PM you.

That was me Pete, are you sure they are the same?. Must admit it's a long time since I had MR (also from Lou Silvani), I'm sure the Pat Smith sounds more like a demo run through??

de gustibus non est disputandum ... one of my favourite labels, such an important Detroit record company, so many great tracks, in fact all except maybe for the 2 sides by The Magnificent Seven (which is also amongst the hardest to get on this logo).

different strokes for different folks

Sheet music given to me by Joey, great Guy !

That was me Pete, are you sure they are the same?. Must admit it's a long time since I had MR (also from Lou Silvani), I'm sure the Pat Smith sounds more like a demo run through??

Not listened to it for ages but when I first did, I was just shcoked that it was the same record - I think it is - but maybe needs checking.

Pat Smith - goin through a whirlpool

Marvellous Ray

de gustibus non est disputandum / different strokes for different folks

almost a street slang translation

It's the same record

Two versions of this. Does the other take look like the above?

Above best version imo and I think the dearer one.

Would have thought someone on here would have know this?

Would have thought someone on here would have know this?

There should be threads on here about it as we have done it a few times

Clues to the different mixes are in the deadwax.

Cheers

Richard

There should be threads on here about it as we have done it a few times

Clues to the different mixes are in the deadwax.

Cheers

Richard

You are right mate, cheers.

It's the same record

I still think they are different vocal tracks and there is more instrumentation on the Marvellous Ray, could be added onto the master, anyone else?

The connection between Riley's and Thelma is pretty thin, other than both being located in Detroit, and that Joey King Fish worked for both companies, and I believe that Melvin Davis worked on a few recordings for both companies. But, if you recorded in Detroit in the mid 1960s, you were more or less forced to use at least a few musicians that other small R&B/Soul firms were using. Joey King Fish was Diamond Jim Riley's main A & R man for a few years, while he wrote songs and produced a couple sessions at Thelma, but was less important there (as they had Don Davis, Norman Whitfield, Don Juan Mancha, Clay McMurray and James Gopphine producing as well).

Thanks for sharing that Rob seems to make sense, I have been listening to other tracks on Riley's and they seem to have typical sound but weather its a Thelma or Riley's thing dunno. Pro

I wonder how close "Peace Loving Man" came to a UK release, it was advertised as an new import in Rhythm and Blues monthly in 1966!

My all-time favourite label, just need the Alberta Adams for a complete run.

Hey mate that was my last one.

atb,Geoff.

Imagine, you record a couple of tracks and wait in great anticipation to see your record in the flesh...the discs arrive...the box is opened in extreme excitement...only to discover they spelt your name incorrectly! Poor Billy...at least they corrected it for the finished stock copies!

I picked this acetate of Jimmy Gilford up a couple of years back

On 08/11/2011 at 09:48, Tony Smith said:

 

 

Hi Andy, hope you're well mate, never seen IWBYG as a demo, or heard of it, unless someone on here knows different?

I've got it on turquoise commercial stock copy, and only ever seen that issue (3 copies (including mine).  I think it was the rarest, by FAR.  I never even saw it in one of the major Detroit Soul or R&B collectors' collections.  Although, I believe one or two of the biggest had it.

Edited November 16, 20213 yr by Robbk

On 10/11/2011 at 07:17, sostenuto said:

 

 

Re. Pat Smith; butch had a United acetate by pat smith that he used to spin at the 100 club in the early 9ts. I think it was called "time to think it over", and uptempo dancer with female backing. He said he bought it off tim ashibende, who found it at either billy kennedy or emanuel laskey's home. According to tim, it was supposed to have been considered for a Thelma release.

I think "Time To Think It Over" was slated as  the "B" Side of "Whirlpool".