I'm coming clean. I have paid over the top for records on numerous ocassions.

It began just before Wigan opened when I paid Pete Lawson £7 for a Louise Lewis original not knowing he had hammered it on EMI Disc and it was about to be bootlegged. The 'coven' of collectors at the time thought I was a fool. Recently I paid way over the odds for a copy of Pro-Fascination from another respected collector because it irritated me when I heard it on CD but didn't own it on vinyl. Most people would think I was mad on that deal too.

But there are lots of reasons why people pay over the odds - and its not just because they 'have more money than sense'.

So come clean - have you paid over the odds? Why? And how do you feel now about the record?

Now I'm off to the last night at Caledonia now its only a fiver to get in. But I'm going to insist on paying £7 quid.

(PS Pete Richer, Chalky Pete-S and myself have been disputing this on another thread about the Cashmeres and I though it desrved a wider attention)

[i've just copied this post from the other thread, just to add a bit of flavour and help the topic get going]

chalky Posted Today, 09:35 PM

 

Since 2004 the Cashmeres on ebay was selling for between $835 and as high as $2150 which was a tad ott IMHO, on average the record was selling for around $1500, give or take a bit half what Tim valued it at in his guide, which is after all a guide. That btw is for copies that popsike have picked up on, know there has been more than the copies stated.

50 copies only, I bet there's been almost that up for sale via auctions, lists and sales boxes at venues the past few years, have seen it for sale often enough was also told one seller on e-bay had multiple copies, rumour or fact dunno?

as for the understating of values by those who should know better, give us some examples? the so called understatement could after all be just a honest opinion, maybe the last value the one who should know better saw a record sold for?

----------------------------------

These are interesting points Chalky; and of course condition, the number of people looking to buy (and the strength of their demand (and wallet!) at any given time), and indeed how many new copies have turned up, all play their part.

The other thing we don't know is whether the same copies of a record are being re-sold!

Even the respected record dealers of 30+ years standing are only estimating the number of copies, except in the cases where only very few have ever been found and are well documented (such as Mello Souls, Inspirations on Breakthrough, Don Gardner 'Cheating Kind', the really rare stuff on Shrine etc.), or where hundreds have been seen at the same time (such as Frankie Beverly on Sassy or Epitome of Sound) in which case 'rarity' doesn't really come into it.

Peter

But there are lots of reasons why people pay over the odds - and its not just because they 'have more money than sense'.

So come clean - have you paid over the odds? Why? And how do you feel now about the record?

A few months back I paid Richie (the gasher) £150 for The Fifth Avenue Band - One way or the other. I was reliably informed by a third party before i PMed Richie that it was going for around £150, so i thought fair enough and bought it...

About a week later someone offers a copy for £30 and someone else says they have two copies they'll let go for £30 each as well .

Funnily enough i didn't feel i'd paid over the odds, even though 3 more turned up cheaper (how was i to know that was gonna happen?) and i certainly didn't feel ripped off by Richie, because both he, myself and my advisor (Mark Freeman ) all thought it was worth £150 and Richie even got into an argument with one of the other sellers about the low price they were offering it at.

So..

a) was i just unlucky?

is Fifth Avenue Band really only a £30 record and i paid over the odds?

c) or did i pay the correct going rate at the time i bought?

Love it anyway, and don't regret buying it.

Matt

Edited July 22, 200618 yr by Matt Male

I don't understand the question....

Every time I buy a record for more than $10 I feel like I've paid over the top for it

I paid far too much for a copy of Don & Juan - All That's Missing is You on blue Mala cos I bloody wanted it and had the money. I've since had & sold 2 copies of said record on Terrific (one to Soul Sam who told me it wasn't worth what I was asking then reviewed it saying it was fantastic and he'd been after a copy for years) but never seen another on blue Mala.

I couldn't care less if I've paid "over the odds", money is only beer tokens at the end of the day. Some times you have plenty, sometimes you don't have much.

i was the person who first queried the £1900+ price paid for the cashmeres on manship's auction. just like to say i wasn't trying to make myself out to be a 'wise owl' stuart

i was just genuinely surprised that it went for that. i think 800 quid is about the 'right' price personally. i've had several copies myself, and i'm no big collector or dealer or anything, and i always end up selling them for a couple of hundred quid more than i paid for them because i know another copy will be along soon. it's just not a rare record (though it is great IMO).

all that said, i'm not criticising anyone who pays anything for a record. as i've said before, it's all relative. someone on the dole paying £30 for a £20 record is madder than a millionaire paying £2000 for a £1000 record, for starters. (if i ever make serious money i won't be messing around trying to beat people by ten quid, i'll just be buying everything i want whatever the price and leaving myself more time to spend with my coke and whores).

secondly, records are only worth what someone wants to pay - there's no 'right' price.

thirdly, on topic, of course i've paid over the odds, pretty much everyone has i'd say. certainly, historically. i try to keep it to a minimum and avoid buying from dealers generally but sometimes you can't help it, can you?

In the past I've often thought I've paid OTT for records but my attitude has always been, if you like the sound buy it! But must admit I've taken a step back a couple of times when I know some of the dealers were just out to rip you off!!

ie I've sold a couple of tunes at nighters then see them in their boxes the same night with another £10 on top!

The Bloody cheek of it

I'm coming clean. I have paid over the top for records on numerous ocassions.

It began just before Wigan opened when I paid Pete Lawson £7 for a Louise Lewis original not knowing he had hammered it on EMI Disc and it was about to be bootlegged. The 'coven' of collectors at the time thought I was a fool. Recently I paid way over the odds for a copy of Pro-Fascination from another respected collector because it irritated me when I heard it on CD but didn't own it on vinyl. Most people would think I was mad on that deal too.

But there are lots of reasons why people pay over the odds - and its not just because they 'have more money than sense'.

So come clean - have you paid over the odds? Why? And how do you feel now about the record?

Now I'm off to the last night at Caledonia now its only a fiver to get in. But I'm going to insist on paying £7 quid.

(PS Pete Richer, Chalky Pete-S and myself have been disputing this on another thread about the Cashmeres and I though it desrved a wider attention)

superb thread.

Yeah Ive paid over the odds for tunes, too many to list in fact.

My philosphy is if you've got the wedge why lose it to someone for the sake of another £50, sounds flippant but we're talking about vinyl that you've wanted in your collection for 10, 15 sometimes 30 years.

The problem arrises when two like minded individuals lock horns during an auction, Lenny Curtis last week is a prime example, I paid £7 for mine however if someone wants to bid £1000 for what is in reality not a rare record, fair play to em, its no different than a wine collector paying top dollar for a bottle wine, though most wouldn't pay big money for a 1966 Blue Nun, or would they???

I collect White promos and if a copy of Johnny Wyatt -This think called love came up on Auction on Bronco white promo, I'll warn you all now I will sell my Mum to get this, however for everyone that you pay over the odds for there's been ones which you get cheap to balance the books so to speak...Fortson and Scott £10, Bob and Fred £7, The Inticers £8.

Btw...Don Gardner aint that rare imo...

THIS WORKS BOTH WAYS,REMEMBER WIGAN 1979 INSPIRATIONS ON MIDAS YOUR WISH IS MY COMMAND,ABOUT £80 DEEMED A SMALL FORTUNE AND AT THE TIME WAY OVER THE ODDS!

HOWEVER CURLYMOORE ONLY £200 ,JOHNNY ROBINSON BOUT THE SAME,BOTH ON E BAY A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.I AGREE WHEN 2 PEOPLE PUSH THE BOAT OUT,PAID £60 QUID FOR AN ISONICS FROM ANGLO YEARS AGO AND SOLD IT FOR WELL OVER 800 DOLLARS ON EBAY,THIS WAS DEFINETLY A DEMAND THING.

TO ME THE FREE MARKET HAS ALWAYS MADE COLLECTING RARE SOUL A PLEASUREABLE HOBBY COS AT SOME POINT ,IVE COLLECTED SINCE 79,A BIT NOUS AND SUSS COME INTO THE EQUATION.

HOWEVER IF I WAS TO LIST EVERY RECORD I HAVE PAID OVER THE ODDS FOR I THINK I WOULD BE ON HERE ALL DAY.REMEMBER THE TSU TORNADOES-ONLY INSIDE SPUN AT STAFFORD I PAID £50 FOR WHEN IT WAS SPUN,NOW THAT IS A FIVE QUID RECORD IF EVER THERE WAS ONE.

BAZ A.

I've been well and truly mugged a few times recently.

Over the course of about 2 months I've paid

£350 for manship's guide price at £175

£200 for manship's guide price at £50!

£200 for manship's guide price at £100

and £150 for manship's guide price at £100

On complaining about the first two to the seller next time I saw him out I got the (admittedly brilliant) response

"You can't trust Manship's Guide - those prices are way out"!

Got to admire his cheek

To me whatever you are thinking of buying ie- car, house, clothes, records, you are going to pay what you feel is right and what is within your budget, it can only be worth what someone is willing to pay for it. i have never paid over the top for a record because i wanted it i paid what i thought it was worth to me and not a guide so to me im happy with all my records and thier value to me, PRICELESS !!!!

I don't think I've paid over the odds for many records, although I'm sure other people think I have!

I paid £1,300 for a copy of the Cautions (No Other Way) on auction a couple of years back when it was tending to sell for £800 on E-bay, but the one I got was absolutely stone mint, and there's not many of the later Shrine issues you can say that about. I actually think it is probably worth about £1,500 now in that condition, and I'm very glad I bought it - it is a prized jewel in my collection.

There really is no 'right price' for a record. I get lists from John Manship, Shifty, John Anderson and Henry Atkinson (among others), and there are differences between them on even the relatively common records such as the Impressions (You've Been Cheating) and Spyder Turner (I Can't Make It Anymore). It's not always the same dealers who are the most expensive, or the cheapest, either. Which one is right? They try to value them at a price which will sell and get a good return for themselves.

People tend to pay 'over the odds' if it is a fashionable in-demander (e.g. Brown Sugar a couple of years back), or if they are trying to squeeze a rare record out of an unwilling seller's collection.

Proper auctions give a truer reflection of top price, and by proper auctions I mean like John Manship's which continues (just after the closing time) until everyone has finished bidding within a reasonable amount of time - just like Sotheby's or Christie's does (going once ... going twice ... etc.). Although these still depend on who wants the record, and how much they can afford, at that period in time. It can, and does, fluctuate.

However, a common misconception is that a record is worth what the winner is prepared to pay. It's not, it's worth just a little bit more than the SECOND highest bidder is prepared to pay at that time. And next time it comes up for sale who knows who the second highest bidder will be, and how much they'll be willing to pay? You never know just how far the winner was prepared to go!

Another interesting point, from my recent experience, is that the psychology of the sale comes into play. Shifty was kind enough to sell a Dena Barnes issue for me. A couple of lists back it was on auction with a starting bid of £350, and nobody at all was interested. So, last list it went on set sale for £500 and it sold within a couple of days! Amazing. It could still be construed as a bargain though, as a year ago one sold on JM's auction for £700!

Peter

I paid £20 for 'Run For Shelter' 20 years ago.

According to Record Collector its still only £20 now

Does that count?

Edited July 23, 200618 yr by Soulsmith

I don't think I've paid over the odds for many records, although I'm sure other people think I have!

and there are differences between them on even the relatively common records such as the Impressions (You've Been Cheating) and Spyder Turner (I Can't Make It Anymore).

Proper auctions give a truer reflection of top price, and by proper auctions I mean like John Manship's which continues (just after the closing time) until everyone has finished bidding within a reasonable amount of time - just like Sotheby's or Christie's does (going once ... going twice ... etc.). Although these still depend on who wants the record, and how much they can afford, at that period in time. It can, and does, fluctuate.

Peter

What's the difference in price between the dealers on the records you mention above? There shouldn't really be that much of a difference???

Top price paid at auction doesn't neccesarily give a true reflection of the discs worth just the price it's worth to one individual. Price is often driven higher by two individuals (very rarely do you see several) getting involved in a bidding war. If the individuals have a certain amount of spare cash and a top want is there to be bid on then they will go for it more often than not regardless whether or not the record is worth what the are paying. how often is it discussed on here how daft some bugger is for paying "silly x" amount for a record? All the time!!

Often an over inflated price paid on an auction has a knock on effect and the next copy for sale is then deemed to be worth the last price paid on auction, Cashmeres, Bill Bush etc are good examples of this

I have never paid over the odds for a record at the time of buying.

In hindsight now it may appear I have paid over the odds and indeed others may have though I paid over the odds at the time.

But if I willingly part with my cash how the hell can it be over the odds to me?

What's the difference in price between the dealers on the records you mention above? There shouldn't really be that much of a difference???

Top price paid at auction doesn't neccesarily give a true reflection of the discs worth just the price it's worth to one individual. Price is often driven higher by two individuals (very rarely do you see several) getting involved in a bidding war. If the individuals have a certain amount of spare cash and a top want is there to be bid on then they will go for it more often than not regardless whether or not the record is worth what the are paying. how often is it discussed on here how daft some bugger is for paying "silly x" amount for a record? All the time!!

Often an over inflated price paid on an auction has a knock on effect and the next copy for sale is then deemed to be worth the last price paid on auction, Cashmeres, Bill Bush etc are good examples of this

Another example of this is the Masqueraders - How on La beat. No way is this a rare piece, but since J.M. auctioned it everyone expects a grand for it.

Another example of this is the Masqueraders - How on La beat. No way is this a rare piece, but since J.M. auctioned it everyone expects a grand for it.

==============================================================

If its not a rare 45 Phil how come you hardly see it for sale ?

Going off prices which some easy to obtain 45,s are going for How on LaBeat

is a steal at a grand and no i aint sellin mine to Cliff he would only sell it

the day after to Stew for £2000

Another example of this is the Masqueraders - How on La beat. No way is this a rare piece, but since J.M. auctioned it everyone expects a grand for it.

I know....nearly as bad as the Volumes on Karen eh?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

i have a question about all of this:

how EXACTLY do price guides determine how they are going to list prices for these records. is it simply and "educated" guess based simply on demand?

all i know is that over the course of the past 4 years, it has become practically impossible to walk out of a record store/record fair/dealer's house without the seller pulling out a copy of manship's guide. it all seems a bit unfair to me, as demand in this country (and they have chosen to sell to buyers in this country) is far less than in the UK, where the guide is printed.

personally, i refuse to pay more than $300 for any record as long as I am living in the US - and i will pay that much on VERY RARE OCCASSIONS.

Another example of this is the Masqueraders - How on La beat. No way is this a rare piece, but since J.M. auctioned it everyone expects a grand for it.

I think this is one of those records that might not be rare (define rare?) but not many people will part with it. So it may be that a lot of people have one in their collection but if you want to buy one it is difficult to come by.

I think the same can be said of the ringleaders, not really rare but people don't want to part with it unless they get serious wedge. so it is a 200-300 record.

It's a demand thing

Edited July 23, 200618 yr by paultp

i have a question about all of this:

how EXACTLY do price guides determine how they are going to list prices for these records. is it simply and "educated" guess based simply on demand?

all i know is that over the course of the past 4 years, it has become practically impossible to walk out of a record store/record fair/dealer's house without the seller pulling out a copy of manship's guide. it all seems a bit unfair to me, as demand in this country (and they have chosen to sell to buyers in this country) is far less than in the UK, where the guide is printed.

personally, i refuse to pay more than $300 for any record as long as I am living in the US - and i will pay that much on VERY RARE OCCASSIONS.

The introduction of the JM priceguide states:

"This is perhaps the ONLY price guide anywhere in the world, which is a database of our actual sales. We can say 95% of the 45s within this guide have been sold by John Manship Records."

The introduction of the JM priceguide states:

"This is perhaps the ONLY price guide anywhere in the world, which is a database of our actual sales. We can say 95% of the 45s within this guide have been sold by John Manship Records."

So, that means that the prices on manship's site for records that he is selling arent based on the price that he has quoted in his guide for said records?

i have a question about all of this:

how EXACTLY do price guides determine how they are going to list prices for these records. is it simply and "educated" guess based simply on demand?

all i know is that over the course of the past 4 years, it has become practically impossible to walk out of a record store/record fair/dealer's house without the seller pulling out a copy of manship's guide. it all seems a bit unfair to me, as demand in this country (and they have chosen to sell to buyers in this country) is far less than in the UK, where the guide is printed.

personally, i refuse to pay more than $300 for any record as long as I am living in the US - and i will pay that much on VERY RARE OCCASSIONS.

with most collectors and dealers the prices come with experience and the knowledge you gain because of it, alos keeping an eye on what gets sold at venues, by lists and auction etc. Others it's simply a case of referring to a guide Price can be subjective as well as we've seen with some prices reached on auctions net

with most collectors and dealers the prices come with experience and the knowledge you gain because of it, alos keeping an eye on what gets sold at venues, by lists and auction etc. Others it's simply a case of referring to a guide Price can be subjective as well as we've seen with some prices reached on auctions net

the record world is a funny little world the only way for a collector in this country to guage the worth of a record is via auction sales. records typically dont get sold at gigs to any degree, and dealer fairs are nothing to keep track of, as they will typically trade all of the good stuff amongst themselves before the fair even starts - and those newly aquired records go directly to ebay. what you DO see at dealer fairs are common records remotely considered Northern Soul (usually this is anything 60s) priced to the sky by a gaggle of dealers who only care about rockabilly or doo-wop. you rarely ever see anything of rarity at these things. just a bunch of old dudes with fannypacks looking to make a little cash on what seems to them "a recent trend."

also, it is pretty typical to see dealers/shops pricing records from Manship regardless of condition.

==============================================================

If its not a rare 45 Phil how come you hardly see it for sale ?

Going off prices which some easy to obtain 45,s are going for How on LaBeat

is a steal at a grand and no i aint sellin mine to Cliff he would only sell it

the day after to Stew for £2000

hi ian if stew wanted the masqueraders id give it to him no charge , just asi let him have eric mercury sac devotions nation ., timmy williams mala etc ps i told him about the tattoos give him aring pm for his no ...

==============================================================

If its not a rare 45 Phil how come you hardly see it for sale ?

Going off prices which some easy to obtain 45,s are going for How on LaBeat

is a steal at a grand and no i aint sellin mine to Cliff he would only sell it

the day after to Stew for £2000

Blimey, you bit on that one Ian. ......

I've seen loads of them for sale since J.M. got the grand on his auction....

I know....nearly as bad as the Volumes on Karen eh?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

TOUCHE' mate. But I have seen loads more Masqueraders for sale than Volumes. And I got a fantastic trade for it off Cliff.

Best, Phil.

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

i have a question about all of this:

how EXACTLY do price guides determine how they are going to list prices for these records. is it simply and "educated" guess based simply on demand?

all i know is that over the course of the past 4 years, it has become practically impossible to walk out of a record store/record fair/dealer's house without the seller pulling out a copy of manship's guide. it all seems a bit unfair to me, as demand in this country (and they have chosen to sell to buyers in this country) is far less than in the UK, where the guide is printed.

personally, i refuse to pay more than $300 for any record as long as I am living in the US - and i will pay that much on VERY RARE OCCASSIONS.

Recently I paid way over the odds for a copy of Pro-Fascination from another respected collector because it irritated me when I heard it on CD but didn't own it on vinyl. Most people would think I was mad on that deal too.

Just out of interest, what percentage over 'the odds' were you prepared to pay? 5% 50% 200%?

Also, now that you've attained the prised disk, what have you done with it? Played it non stop, played it a couple of times and put it on the shelf, or thought what a silly begger I am and asked Manship to auction it for you?