After recent finds could we say without fear of contradiction that it would be impossible to make a counterfeit that would fool everyone?

Especially one like say the DB which is the first on that label to appear so no one as reference to any other for comparison? Art forgers have managed to knock up Rembrants etc that have fooled " the experts" for years, and the price these top end records are fetching it must be worthwhile if possible?

There are plenty of  people who are convinced man never stepped on the moon and it was all a con, counterfeiting a 7 inch piece of vinyl in comparison would be a doddle surely?

Edited December 24, 201410 yr by chatty

Earlier this year I sold an original Del Larks issue and the chap I sold it to was actually suspicious because it was in fact mint, so he took it to Prestatyn to compare it to another dj's original.  I don't blame him, paying such a lot of money, but it proves that even in 2014, a mint copy of a rarity can turn up.   I'm not over the moon about having my integrity questioned when it comes to selling originals,  but as I say, I guess if I was paying a lot of money and wasn't 100% sure, I'd check as well.  Incidentally the copy was found in the UK!

Edited December 29, 201410 yr by Pete S

Earlier this year I sold an original Del Larks issue and the chap I sold it to was actually suspicious because it was in fact mint, so he took it to Prestatyn to compare it to another dj's original.  I don't blame him, paying such a lot of money, but it proves that even in 2014, a mint copy of a rarity can turn up.   I'm not over the moon about having my integrity questioned when it comes to selling originals,  but as I say, I guess if I was paying a lot of money and wasn't 100% sure, I'd check as well.  Incidentally the copy was found in the UK!

 

I think most of the Del-Larks were found in the UK Pete. I seem to remember Jim Wilson @ Shoreditch turning 'em up amongst all the doo-wop he had at the time. That's certainly where mine came from.......

 

Ian D 

they couldn't get it right...even when they used the same plant, stampers, paper & everything there were still tell tale indicators 

Best Russ

How do we know?? If they got it bang on right we will never know, because everyone would think it was an original!

The only fakes we know about are the one's that are wrong in some small way or another. Any that are spot on will never be found out!

For example, if the Monarch pressing plant had used the original numbers for the remakes/pressings they made in the 70's no one would be able to tell the difference. They were all done on the same/similar machines from 10 years earlier, but they gave it all away by using the Delta number then a higher number than the original release.

Edited December 29, 201410 yr by Guest

Which records are you talking about?

 

We were discussing whether it would be possible to produce them now rather than in the seventies. The world has moved on a hell of a lot since then.

As ever, always impressed with the collective knowledge on SS. No sarcasm - I mean it.

 

I think this thread shows why any chance of a large scale crim. bootlegging scam is very small - the web comms and knowledge swapping and sharing means it probably wouldn't work. It might of worked  'last century' before SS and similar were created, and knowledge was more  ' word of mouth '. 

 

I'm far more nervous about cyber scamming when buying a  [ bigger ] tune ? Especially when the seller is not known to me, but I can't resist  'engaging ' in the chase for the record.

How do we know?? If they got it bang on right we will never know, because everyone would think it was an original!

The only fakes we know about are the one's that are wrong in some small way or another. Any that are spot on will never be found out!

For example, if the Monarch pressing plant had used the original numbers for the remakes/pressings they made in the 70's no one would be able to tell the difference. They were all done on the same/similar machines from 10 years earlier, but they gave it all away by using the Delta number then a higher number than the original release.

Monarch didn't "give it all away" as they weren't trying to fool anyone, they were legitimately pressing re-issues on behalf of record labels. That's why they used the numbers that they did.

 

The argument is that it isn't possible to fake an original that would fool everyone, so to say the only fakes we know about are those that are wrong just backs up that argument. If there's a way of getting the vinyl, the label, the font, the ink etc etc correct it would be known about.

Monarch didn't "give it all away" as they weren't trying to fool anyone, they were legitimately pressing re-issues on behalf of record labels. That's why they used the numbers that they did.

 

The argument is that it isn't possible to fake an original that would fool everyone, so to say the only fakes we know about are those that are wrong just backs up that argument. If there's a way of getting the vinyl, the label, the font, the ink etc etc correct it would be known about.

 

They were obviously just pressing anything with no questions asked, not on behalf of record labels, on behalf of certain individuals - 90% of Monarch Northern stuff from the 70's is bootleg material

They were obviously just pressing anything with no questions asked, not on behalf of record labels, on behalf of certain individuals - 90% of Monarch Northern stuff from the 70's is bootleg material

 

pressed on behalf of a jolly little frenchman from leeds

May be not a great example but in the early 80s the Japanese bought loads of old manufacturing equipment from Levi's in the States, anything from rivet makers to sewing machines to letter presses for labels, also weaving looms from cone denim mills. Their various repros are very hard to detect indeed and only distinguishable because of modern washing instruction labels that can be removed. 

Surely faking rare stamps or even bank notes would be easier on the basis that there's less elements to reproduce.....?

 

Ian D 

 

Met a guy back in the 80ts got guilty on 20 million of Dutch gilders did 8 years - i guess it's risk over gain

Met a guy back in the 80ts got guilty on 20 million of Dutch gilders did 8 years - i guess it's risk over gain

 

So, 2.5 million guilders per year. Mmm. Not bad....... 

 

Ian D 

I know for a fact there are some fake bell sound acetates in circulation that were manufactured years ago and have changed hands several times for big money.

 

yule.

Met a guy back in the 80ts got guilty on 20 million of Dutch gilders did 8 years - i guess it's risk over gain

Nation states get a bit touchy about counterfeiting their currency but I doubt they would give a damn about records pressed in the 60's for low profile artists, many of whom have passed away and wont be complaining.

That's why I suspect in due course the criminal minds will get round to working out they can make money from counterfeiting records (not just NS) which can be sold for four figures and cost very little to produce once the pressing plates are accurately created.

We may never know if they have already started unless by some good fortune the police (not necessarily in the UK) accidently stumble across the pressing plant in operation; and these police officers dont take a bribe.   

We may never know if they have already started unless by some good fortune the police (not necessarily in the UK) accidently stumble across the pressing plant in operation; and these police officers dont take a bribe.   

 

Well, the biggest selling record of the last year (Pharrell William's "Happy") was bootlegged on 7" vinyl, so I guess anything's possible...

 

Ian D 

I know for a fact there are some fake bell sound acetates in circulation that were manufactured years ago and have changed hands several times for big money.

 

yule.

 

some Virtue ones as well, you could buy original 60's blanks on ebay a few years ago

Edited December 30, 201410 yr by chalky

For example, if the Monarch pressing plant had used the original numbers for the remakes/pressings they made in the 70's no one would be able to tell the difference. They were all done on the same/similar machines from 10 years earlier, but they gave it all away by using the Delta number then a higher number than the original release.

Exactly.

 

Russ