On the green Truth label,   the Stax subsidiary.

Anyone care to enlighten the soul world with more information?

 

 

On 1/26/2016 at 18:24, Ian Dewhirst said:

I dig what you're saying Dean but there's still all sorts of things which don't completely add-up. Two separate people who are not connected with each other both claim they've either had it (me) or seen it and held it in their hands (the other Dean). The one that Dean had through his hands came from John Anderson so there's another avenue to check out if anyone speaks to John.

When you say, "so the idea that they would divert funds to make an album is unlikely" I would question that. I thought that they had bought the album in the first place and it's the album repertoire which produced the material for the two singles or 4 songs. So I thought it was a finished album deal right from the off? 

Also weird, is that the completed album was subsequently sold to Demon in 1989 from when the reissue came out (note I say reissue :)). So one would assume that Stax lost ownership of the album right? And then the 2 Sandra Wright singles turn up on the Complete Stax/Volt Singles 5 years later in 1994. So it's pretty confusing as to who actually owns the repertoire in my view. Also weird that this is pretty much the ONLY 'lost' album from such a vast catalogue. It's not like we've been inundated with bundles of other 'lost' albums by any of the other Stax acts is it? Also weird that Demon would release something like that rather than Ace don't you think? They would have either had to license the 4 Stax controlled tracks from Ace or, 5 years later, Universal would have had to licence the 2 tracks for the box set from whoever controlled the licensing of the album to Demon surely? The tracks can't be owned by two different parties can they? 

Questions, questions. However I'm realistic enough to know that this will never be accepted until the definitive proof is provided so, like the other Dean, until then I don't think there's any point saying anything else. 

Killer album period. Wish I'd kept it!

Ian D

 

Its quite simple really Stax/Volt/Fantasy only had the rights in the U.S. maybe nobody had the rights in the UK/worldwide which is why Dave Johnson could grant the rights to Demon as he had only sold the U.S. rights. It is not the ONLY "lost album" 2 of the others in the Truth album discography have never been seen either.

Just now, Kegsy said:

Its quite simple really Stax/Volt/Fantasy only had the rights in the U.S. maybe nobody had the rights in the UK/worldwide which is why Dave Johnson could grant the rights to Demon as he had only sold the U.S. rights. It is not the ONLY "lost album" 2 of the others in the Truth album discography have never been seen either.

Nope. Fantasy bought worldwide rights as any of the Ace/Kent guys will confirm.

Ian D

totally conceivable.

Stax are having cash-flow troubles, not paying bills.

They get the LP pressed up at a plant, can't pay because the company is in a state of collapse.

Plant refuses to release the product until they are paid for the pressing.

Stax don't pay.

The Sandra Wright LP is destroyed by the plant because the order was never paid for, but maybe a copy or two sneak out with employees or were sent as "tests" or something.

It is known that some Stax product was never shipped from the pressing plant because Stax never paid at the time & certain plants even refused to do business with them after word got out that they were sinking.   

1 hour ago, Kris Holmes said:

totally conceivable.

Stax are having cash-flow troubles, not paying bills.

They get the LP pressed up at a plant, can't pay because the company is in a state of collapse.

Plant refuses to release the product until they are paid for the pressing.

Stax don't pay.

The Sandra Wright LP is destroyed by the plant because the order was never paid for, but maybe a copy or two sneak out with employees or were sent as "tests" or something.

It is known that some Stax product was never shipped from the pressing plant because Stax never paid at the time & certain plants even refused to do business with them after word got out that they were sinking.   

Hence my question as to whether Stax used Monarch in L.A. throughout this period. This was when I managed to get into a store-room @ Monarch and picked up a bunch of stuff including the Si Hightower T.P. I'm beginning to think that's where I found the Sandra Wright album because they were storing at least one copy of everything they pressed in that room. That's my guess anyway and it's pretty much the only one that makes sense.

Ian D

 

i did not bring enough of my records or any of my books with me when i moved here to be able to answer that sorry

We still need to hear from Paul Mooney and in particular Colin Dilnot.

Perfectly understandable if Colin values his privacy and wishes to keep away from the spotlight of rabid rare soul collectors but surely someone on here knows him well enough to contact him and ask him the big question.

6 hours ago, sunnysoul said:

We still need to hear from Paul Mooney and in particular Colin Dilnot.

Perfectly understandable if Colin values his privacy and wishes to keep away from the spotlight of rabid rare soul collectors but surely someone on here knows him well enough to contact him and ask him the big question.

Not sure Paul wants to get involved - asked him a couple of times of facebook but he hasn't been on here to offer any opinion. 

On 1/26/2016 at 18:24, Ian Dewhirst said:

 

Edited January 28, 20169 yr by Kegsy

11 hours ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Nope. Fantasy bought worldwide rights as any of the Ace/Kent guys will confirm.

Ian D

Its already been said that Soul Brother licensed it from Dave Johnson and it states quite clearly on the Demon release that it was licensed from him too. Perhaps Fantasy only had the rights to previously released material and only in the format it was released on. Given the ins and outs of this thread perhaps FANTASY would have been the best label for it to come out on. 

Edited January 28, 20169 yr by Kegsy

16 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

Its already been said that Soul Brother licensed it from Dave Johnson and it states quite clearly on the Demon release that it was licensed from him too. Perhaps Fantasy only had the rights to previously released material and only in the format it was released on. Given the ins and outs of this thread perhaps FANTASY would have been the best label for it to come out on. 

Yep. It all seems a bit murky from that period doesn't it? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it wouldn't surprise me if Dave Johnson took the rights back following Stax's implosion which, contractually, he could have had the right to do since the record company generally contractually agrees to use it's 'best efforts' to exploit the artist and repertoire - something that Stax was unable to do by this point. 

Possibly the same scenario for Jo Armstead who leased the Gospel Truth sides to Collectables in 1996:-

https://www.discogs.com/Jo-Armstead-A-Stone-Good-Lover/release/2271957

Ian D

2 minutes ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Yep. It all seems a bit murky from that period doesn't it? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it wouldn't surprise me if Dave Johnson took the rights back following Stax's implosion which, contractually, he could have had the right to do since the record company generally contractually agrees to use it's 'best efforts' to exploit the artist and repertoire - something that Stax was unable to do by this point. 

Possibly the same scenario for Jo Armstead who leased the Gospel Truth sides to Collectables in 1996:-

https://www.discogs.com/Jo-Armstead-A-Stone-Good-Lover/release/2271957

Ian D

Maybe they never paid him, in which case they would not have the rights anyway.

8 hours ago, Kegsy said:

Maybe they never paid him, in which case they would not have the rights anyway.

Well, for sure. Although generally most record companies will usually pay their advances well before any records are issued. But Stax really was in chaos at that time. I think I'll have a re-read of the two Stax books again and try and work out exactly what was happening from the dates between the two singles. As someone pointed out earlier, Stax even bought it's own pressing machine because it was running out of manufacturers............

Ian D

22 hours ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Hence my question as to whether Stax used Monarch in L.A. throughout this period. This was when I managed to get into a store-room @ Monarch and picked up a bunch of stuff including the Si Hightower T.P. I'm beginning to think that's where I found the Sandra Wright album because they were storing at least one copy of everything they pressed in that room. That's my guess anyway and it's pretty much the only one that makes sense.

Ian D

 

In contrast to my earlier comment, it seems that Stax did use Monarch in their final years (for LPs at least). Here's an example from early 1974:

https://www.discogs.com/Chico-The-Master/release/7472493

41 minutes ago, mshoals said:

In contrast to my earlier comment, it seems that Stax did use Monarch in their final years (for LPs at least). Here's an example from early 1974:

https://www.discogs.com/Chico-The-Master/release/7472493

OK, well that does confirm that they WERE using Monarch at that period then. I was in the Monarch store room a couple of years later, so a few more pieces are beginning to fit now..........

Ian D

 

I still think that this did not get released - sorry Ian & Dean, but there is a chance that you 2 guys are mistaken - it does happen to the best of us - I would love to be proved wrong but I just don't think I will be - only my opinion of course ??

Just looking at David Johnson's comments makes me even more convinced this didn't come out.

At the point the album was recorded (late 1974) Stax was starting to find itself in trouble, it wasn't close to bankruptcy. That happened January 1976.

The label obviously chose not to continue with the artist, long before the album was finished. To confirm the two singles continue to be claimed by Fantasy's successor Concord.

I think it is telling that there is absolutely no paperwork at Stax for this, and that paperwork exists for contracts/ label copy for virtually all releases, including the proposed final Bar Kays single 'Holy Ghost' in December 1975 (it is unlikely that this was released).

Also someone mentioned that at least one of the single tracks was an alt version/ mix, can anyone confirm that this is the case for any of the others.

Finally Monarch for the Chico Hamilton LP is hardly surprising as it was part of an attempt to set up West Coast offices, headed by Chico Hamilton's son. But that album has a 1973 P date so is over two year before Stax went bust.

 

 

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by Dean Rudland
Posted the wrong quote

In David Johnson's liner notes (reproduced earlier in this thread) he says that the album was recorded October 1974 and the "Wounded Woman" 45 was released early in 1975. But is that correct? Wasn't Truth 3201 already released in June 1974 (as stated on the label)?

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by mshoals

33 minutes ago, Dean Rudland said:

Just looking at David Johnson's comments makes me even more convinced this didn't come out.

At the point the album was recorded (late 1974) Stax was starting to find itself in trouble, it wasn't close to bankruptcy. That happened January 1976.

The label obviously chose not to continue with the artist, long before the album was finished. To confirm the two singles continue to be claimed by Fantasy's successor Concord.

I think it is telling that there is absolutely no paperwork at Stax for this, and that paperwork exists for contracts/ label copy for virtually all releases, including the proposed final Bar Kays single 'Holy Ghost' in December 1975 (it is unlikely that this was released).

Also someone mentioned that at least one of the single tracks was an alt version/ mix, can anyone confirm that this is the case for any of the others.

Finally Monarch for the Chico Hamilton LP is hardly surprising as it was part of an attempt to set up West Coast offices, headed by Chico Hamilton's son. But that album has a 1973 P date so is over two year before Stax went bust.

 

 

From what I have read i think the full album was already in the can when Dave Johnson approached Stax, well that's what it says in the sleeve notes posted earlier. I would suggest that if either of the two singles had "hit" then the album would have got a release, but they didn't, so it didn't. Plus Shirley brown came along and had a million seller with Woman to Woman around the same time and her album did get released, on both Stax and Truth as it happens..

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by Kegsy

4 minutes ago, mshoals said:

In David Johnson's liner notes (reproduced earlier in this thread) he says that the album was recorded October 1974 and the "Wounded Woman" 45 was released early in 1975. But is that correct? Wasn't Truth 3201 already released in June 1974 (as stated on the label)?

The second single was released January 1975, Wounded Woman was 1974. So David the album was recorded by then. Still no paperwork at Stax to suggest that anything but singles deals were done for David's productions.

 

37 minutes ago, Dean Rudland said:

 

 

6 minutes ago, Dean Rudland said:

The second single was released January 1975, Wounded Woman was 1974. So David the album was recorded by then. Still no paperwork at Stax to suggest that anything but singles deals were done for David's productions.

 

Makes sense just to do single deals as a hit single would have given him more leverage on the money for the album.

On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 08:54, daved said:

Really? I was buying loads of LPs at the time and thought I had my finger on the pulse but don't recall this at all. I was buying Willie Clayton, Miles Jaye, By All Means, Regina Belle, David Peaston, Will Downing, Adeva, Alyson Williams, Tashan, Betty Wright, Chanelle, Maze, etc. There was loads of fantastic new releases to concentrate on. Mind you, I wasn't going out to dos. Being a young lad in Kent, there wasn't anything going on about from live shows in London.

I bought it as new release (Demon) and was living in London at the time and I remember there being quite a buzz about it certainly amongst the crowd who were going to the Up North weekenders and the like. Maybe it was a wee bit of an underground buzz and as you say not going to events you missed out on the word of mouth buzz.

All the best

Manus

1 hour ago, Dean Rudland said:

Finally Monarch for the Chico Hamilton LP is hardly surprising as it was part of an attempt to set up West Coast offices, headed by Chico Hamilton's son. But that album has a 1973 P date so is over two year before Stax went bust.

A later Monarch pressed Stax LP is this one which, judging by the STXS master numbers (see here) seems to be from around April/May 1974.

4 hours ago, Dean Rudland said:

The second single was released January 1975, Wounded Woman was 1974. So David the album was recorded by then. Still no paperwork at Stax to suggest that anything but singles deals were done for David's productions.

 

Interesting info on second single. I found this going through B&S issues from 1975. Issue 160 May 13-26 1975. Bottom right hand corner in "Also released"

Also interesting to read the other reviews too.

Kev

On ‎27‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 21:16, Ian Dewhirst said:

Well, if I'd have seen a Joshie Armstead album I'd have picked that up too for sure. I'd have left the Darktown Strutters album though as, ironically, I wasn't into Blaxploitation stuff at the time.

However, in later years I did pick up what I consider to be the weirdest Stax release ever: an IRANIAN copy of "Shaft's Big Score"........must be the only one in existence following the revolution I'd have thought........

Ian D

 

That wasn't a Stax release, it was released on MGM in most of the world

On 1/29/2016 at 16:41, John Reed said:

That wasn't a Stax release, it was released on MGM in most of the world

Yep. Silly me! 

Ian D

On 1/27/2016 at 21:24, Ian Dewhirst said:

Nope. Fantasy bought worldwide rights as any of the Ace/Kent guys will confirm.

Ian D

Just a thought Ian, but given the time span between this thread and when you last had this LP, do you think it is possible you have confused this with the Sandra Alexandra LP, after all it has Sandra written on the front in large print, face only photo of a black lady, and the LP title is two words beginning with W. Except it it is not Wounded Woman, it's Warm & wild. If you remember it had that northernish cut on it 'She will break your heart'.  I know the quality is poles apart, but like I say passage of time and all that. On a personal note, if somebody has a promo with just a publicity photo etc then to be honest I would not be that shocked, as for the finished lp with full artwork, just can't see it.

31 minutes ago, still diggin said:

Just a thought Ian, but given the time span between this thread and when you last had this LP, do you think it is possible you have confused this with the Sandra Alexandra LP, after all it has Sandra written on the front in large print, face only photo of a black lady, and the LP title is two words beginning with W. Except it it is not Wounded Woman, it's Warm & wild. If you remember it had that northernish cut on it 'She will break your heart'.  I know the quality is poles apart, but like I say passage of time and all that. On a personal note, if somebody has a promo with just a publicity photo etc then to be honest I would not be that shocked, as for the finished lp with full artwork, just can't see it.

Only thing is  you have not one but two reputable people here who clearly recall seeing the LP.

2 hours ago, still diggin said:

Just a thought Ian, but given the time span between this thread and when you last had this LP, do you think it is possible you have confused this with the Sandra Alexandra LP, after all it has Sandra written on the front in large print, face only photo of a black lady, and the LP title is two words beginning with W. Except it it is not Wounded Woman, it's Warm & wild. If you remember it had that northernish cut on it 'She will break your heart'.  I know the quality is poles apart, but like I say passage of time and all that. On a personal note, if somebody has a promo with just a publicity photo etc then to be honest I would not be that shocked, as for the finished lp with full artwork, just can't see it.

Nope, not a chance.

It wasn't even this one either:-

https://www.discogs.com/Sandra-Phillips-Too-Many-People-In-One-Bed/release/3791603

Ian D

 

20 hours ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Nope, not a chance.

It wasn't even this one either:-

https://www.discogs.com/Sandra-Phillips-Too-Many-People-In-One-Bed/release/3791603

Ian D

 

That's fair enough Ian, just thought I would run that past you as they say. Given the fact you have already alluded to the fact it was rather heavy and in a tatty sleeve, do you think this was an acetate in a plain black sleeve with perhaps some promotional notes and a track listing? or full artwork with credits associated with the finished product? Either way I do hope this comes to light not just for your piece of mind, but for the soul community as a whole. A really great piece of lost history if it does surface.

Andy

 

 

On 29/01/2016 at 16:41, John Reed said:

That wasn't a Stax release, it was released on MGM in most of the world

Not in my world, here in the UK!

On 30/01/2016 at 17:58, Ian Dewhirst said:

Yep. Silly me! 

Ian D

You aren't going mad after all

It's me that's going mad...............different film!!!!

Quick update folks

A friend of mine (John Baxter from The Wirral) spoke to Colin Dilnot at the weekend and brought up the Sandra Wright LP with him.

Colin confirmed that he had never had it and to the best of his knowledge he believed it to be unreleased?

So at least we now know it wasn't Colin who Ian sold it to and it also wasn't Colin who bought it from Expansion either!

Still hoping someone comes up with a copy but at least we can strike Colin Dilnot from the equation :-)

Hope this helps?

Cheers

Steve

 

Shame...

Cash Waiting!

Sean

 

On 2/5/2016 at 10:40, stateside said:

It's me that's going mad...............different film!!!!

You beat me to it Stateside........:)

Ian D

 

4 minutes ago, Steve Plumb said:

Quick update folks

A friend of mine (John Baxter from The Wirral) spoke to Colin Dilnot at the weekend and brought up the Sandra Wright LP with him.

Colin confirmed that he had never had it and to the best of his knowledge he believed it to be unreleased?

So at least we now know it wasn't Colin who Ian sold it to and it also wasn't Colin who bought it from Expansion either!

Still hoping someone comes up with a copy but at least we can strike Colin Dilnot from the equation :-)

Hope this helps?

Cheers

Steve

 

OK, I probably sold Colin the Sandra Phillips album then.

I am now beginning to doubt myself which doesn't happen very often 'cos I can't think who else it would have gone to. After several quite grueling weeks I think I'm almost happy to accept that, yes, I could be mad and may well have lost my marbles.

Thanks for the recent spout of records by the way Steve. My ultimate collection is beginning to get there now.

Ian D