Porgy & the Monarchs 'that's my girl' on Verve

[Tlscapital]

So underrated in the 6T's, there is only little information on the group to be found anywhere. It shows as their records sales never matched the talents they dished out. We are many to love all the materials they did A, B and unissued sides. But what went "wrong" with their last double sider on Verve 'that's my girl'/'the girl and the boy' ?

I understand that the self distributed Sylves came out after their venture on Musicor. Often pointed to be from 1966 (mid to late), the record apparently had enough exposure to convince the executives at Chess record to do a deal for a wider national distribution by early 1967 (or late 1966) likely.

The Chess promotional copies used a special design (promotional copies - not for sale faint like transfer paper upside-down repetitive background pattern) from mid to late 1966 (for their catalogue numbers between Chess N°1958-1984) and started using that typical font for the credits by early 1967. Both the specific promo label and the font were used for the promotional Sylves copies distributed by Chess. That is how I concluded this issue to be from late 1966 or early 1967.

By mid 1968, Porgy and the Monarchs came back with a deal with Verve to release 'love chain'/'magic music makers'. Arrangements again provided by the very same Richard Tee. 'love chains' is actually cut in exactly the same mold as their 'that's my girl'. It even sounds like it was recorded in the same session ! Things that makes you go Mmmh...

Finally Verve issued a wonderful (tape) 're-worked' version of 'that's my girl' backed again with 'the girl and the boy' of which only a few promo copies escape into the wilderness... The Verve promo onlies copies around are so few about they don't even seem to have been promoted properly. What actually happened there ? Was it "withdrawn" or what ? 

[robhallam]

I don't know about the reason it was released on Verve, but the one on Ebay yesterday is only the 3rd one I've seen, and the other 2 were in poor condition. I set my snipe at $151 and I was a pathetic 3rd. 

Anybody got one ? I need it to complete my Verve collection ( and about 10 others).

Rob

[Tlscapital]

9 minutes ago, robhallam said:

I don't know about the reason it was released on Verve, but the one on Ebay yesterday is only the 3rd one I've seen, and the other 2 were in poor condition. I set my snipe at $151 and I was a pathetic 3rd. 

Anybody got one ? I need it to complete my Verve collection ( and about 10 others).

Rob

Hi Rob, yes first one I saw was last year I think on the evilBay in vg- something and it had a sound clip that made me almost fall out of my coach ! But the condition kind of put me off then.

I love both sides ever since I have my promo copy on Sylves (25 years +), but when I heard the soundclip of the Verve of 'that's my girl' with the 2-times drum beat on top of the original track, I knew I need to have a Verve copy as well. I might let go my minty promo on Sylves when I receive my Verve one, but that's nothing for you I believe since you're after the Verve 'mix' now.

Sorry but it's a keeper for me. It's as far as I know one of the overlooked rarest soul Verve 45 out there. But I still would like to know what's the story behind the last 45 (revived a year and a half later after the first Sylves) of Porgy with the Monarchs and it's real rarity factor. Stories like the Junior McCants 'try me for a new love' on King or Frankie Lyman 'I'm sorry' on Apple have the most grave explanation; sudden death of the artist ! Likely here it's not the case, but could be a contract disagreement issue or something...

[Roburt]

No idea why it's so rare BUT it was released in July 68 between 45's from Eddie Bannon & the Webs ("We Belong Together" -- Verve 10610: also on a yellow promo that looks almost identical to the P&Ms45).

The A side of this 45 bears the next number up from the group's May 68 Verve 45 release "Love Chain" (which is 104,783). B side of this earlier 45 has track #104788 .... so all those cuts must have been laid down at the same session. I'd guess that the cuts on the Sylves 45 were completely different recordings.

The Nick Ashford Verve 45 "California Soul" has #104911 assigned to it & that 45 was a May 68 release.  From that I'd say that the P&Ms Verve session would have taken place around March/April 68. 

Guess the 2nd Verve 45 from the group was put out just as a promo 45 and limited copies pressed up to send to one radio area that was used by Verve to test reaction to new releases (Baltimore was such a radio market back then). Any idea where the known copies of this 45 turned up ? The 45 must not have gained any radio plays and so that was it as far as Verve were concerned.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Roburt

[Only Dreaming]

Has anyone got a link to the Verve mix sound file? 

Dave 

[Roburt]

More info on Porgy .............  his song writing details ...........

PORGY WILLIAMS aka NAPOLEON EUGENE WILLIAMS

CURRENT BMI AFFILIATION: #: 56632671

       Song Title                                  BMI Work #

DO THE ANYTHING                          310242

ESTABU                                              382517

GIRL AND THE BOY                         470041

LOVE CHAINED                                914519

MAGIC MAKER MUSIC MAKER     943053

THAT S MY GIRL                             1480666

TIME OUT TO CRY                         1517083
 

He's no longer a member at BMI (he's let his registration lapse) but one of his old publishing companies is still registered ....

STAMI MUSIC CO,  C/O HERMINE HANLIN, 51 WEST 86TH STREET, NEW YORK, NY 10024-3613

One of his songs (the co-written effort "Time Out To Cry") is assigned to Motown's Stone Agate Music.

It seems that other group members included Richard Parks & his brother John (now passed). Richard was living in the NY area (Bronx?) when last heard from.

I'd guess that Sylves Records was Porgy's own label BUT why he would put out 2 x 45's with almost the same release number I don't know .....

    Sylves 123 (P&Ms 45)  AND  Sylves S123 (Porgy Williams -- Lonely Man's Hum")  

 .... obviously #123 was just made up as an easy number to utilise but why use it twice ? 

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Roburt

[Tlscapital]

19 hours ago, Only Dreaming said:

Has anyone got a link to the Verve mix sound file? 

Dave 

Hi Dave, it's nowhere to be find on the net by now. But I'll do a recording of it once it'll land in my mailbox. Tim

[Tlscapital]

19 hours ago, Roburt said:

No idea why it's so rare BUT it was released in July 68 between 45's from Eddie Bannon & the Webs ("We Belong Together" -- Verve 10610: also on a yellow promo that looks almost identical to the P&Ms45).

The A side of this 45 bears the next number up from the group's May 68 Verve 45 release "Love Chain" (which is 104,783). B side of this earlier 45 has track #104788 .... so all those cuts must have been laid down at the same session. I'd guess that the cuts on the Sylves 45 were completely different recordings.

The Nick Ashford Verve 45 "California Soul" has #104911 assigned to it & that 45 was a May 68 release.  From that I'd say that the P&Ms Verve session would have taken place around March/April 68. 

Guess the 2nd Verve 45 from the group was put out just as a promo 45 and limited copies pressed up to send to one radio area that was used by Verve to test reaction to new releases (Baltimore was such a radio market back then). Any idea where the known copies of this 45 turned up ? The 45 must not have gained any radio plays and so that was it as far as Verve were concerned.

Cheers for that Roburt, I still await the copy to be definite on it to give it a spin. But as far as my memory goes from the last evilBay copy auctioned with sound-clip used the very same takes (tape) as on both Sylves but with an extra drum beat on the 'that's my girl' side to great-er effect. So it should not be a re-recording I remember.

So indeed, like for you my guess is that 'love chains' is from the same studio session (I also noticed that the session numbers were following on both Verve's) and so pre-dates 1968 ! The first self distributed Sylves is around mid to late 1966.

Verve is also known for it's second round re-issues like with the Wilson Pickett from their CUB catalogue (1962) pressed on Verve in 1965 to make then bigger sales than the firsts Correct-Tone and CUB runs altogether.

[Roburt]

I still think that you're wrong (too early) on the recording dates of these Verve released tracks.

The group were still on Musicor until the end of 1966 & so wouldn't have been looking to cut indie tracks for their own label until well into 67 at the earliest. Perhaps the cuts were made in 67 independently and then when Verve showed an interest, they went into the Verve studios (late 67 / Jan to Aprl 68) & added to the original recordings.

Some Verve 45 releases do not have cuts that follow a similar numbering system & I think these are the 'bought in' tracks (such as the Bobby Hatfield 45). The ones that have the numbering around #10478? to 10490? would at least have been 'tinkered with' on Verve's time thus them being assigned cut designations that followed their numbering system. Saying that, the Webs 45 (VK10610) cuts were assigned Verve numbers but maybe as they were Bob Bateman / Lou Courtney made tracks they were done direct for Verve.

Artists who only had one 45 on Verve would have been assigned a number close to their singles release date (IMO). The likes of Jay Jordan's Verve outing had number 103927/28 and was a March 68 release. To me at least, that would mean that all Porgy's cuts given a Verve number would have come after the Jay Jordan cuts so must come after March 68.

Release date of the group's 2nd to last Musicor 45 was the end of May 66 with their last 45 on the label escaping at the very end of that year .... 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Roburt

[Only Dreaming]

2 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Hi Dave, it's nowhere to be find on the net by now. But I'll do a recording of it once it'll land in my mailbox. Tim

Cheers Tim. 

Dave 

 

[Tlscapital]

OK Roburt, you're right there. Still the promotional copies of the Sylves distributed by Chess tend to show that it was around mid 1967 somewhere !

By January 1967 Chess promos were already using the "white and blue sky" label. Never more the white'N'faint pattern 'promotional copy - not for sale' label ones.

And you're right about the Musicor release dates. They are mid and late 1966 !

Musicor 1179 – Porgy And The Monarchs -  If It’s For Real Baby / That Girl – 1966 May/June

Musicor 1221 – Porgy & The Monarchs – My Heart Cries For You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away – 1966 November/December

So for the first self distributed Sylves to be from 1966, is not right. I agree. More likely the first Sylves saw the light mid 1967. And I'd believe that the Chess distributed copies were very quick following. Maybe...

[Tlscapital]

They say better later than ever eh ! Well after a long journey of misfortune only few days before the Verve record finally arrived at my place, my turntable tonearm wiring letted me down, then my amp (I thought first that it was the pre-amp but it wasn't) and again my turntable wiring a second time. It took me 2 months to correct, repair and clean my hybrid vintage'N'modern phono set-up. I'm am now capable to play and listen my records and digitalize them again.

I've done a split/mix or a come & go mp3 recording of both sides (without adjusting the volume or nothing) so everything can be compare (volume, dynamic, mastering...). It starts for both sides with the better known Sylves mixes then the Verve one and off...

porgy.mp3 

Personally I love both sides for different reasons. Still, the cleaned-up mix of 'that's my girl'  (man, that was necessary) on the Verve wins it by a mile. Where the '(that's) the boy and the girl' (credited as on the Verve and 'the girl and the boy' on Sylves) looses it all in comparaison of the Sylves "rougher & punchier" mix. So I'll finally keep them both for each particular sides.

[Mick Holdsworth]

On 07/06/2016 at 06:57, Roburt said:

More info on Porgy .............  his song writing details ...........

PORGY WILLIAMS aka NAPOLEON EUGENE WILLIAMS

CURRENT BMI AFFILIATION: #: 56632671

       Song Title                                  BMI Work #

DO THE ANYTHING                          310242

ESTABU                                              382517

GIRL AND THE BOY                         470041

LOVE CHAINED                                914519

MAGIC MAKER MUSIC MAKER     943053

THAT S MY GIRL                             1480666

TIME OUT TO CRY                         1517083
 

He's no longer a member at BMI (he's let his registration lapse) but one of his old publishing companies is still registered ....

STAMI MUSIC CO,  C/O HERMINE HANLIN, 51 WEST 86TH STREET, NEW YORK, NY 10024-3613

One of his songs (the co-written effort "Time Out To Cry") is assigned to Motown's Stone Agate Music.

It seems that other group members included Richard Parks & his brother John (now passed). Richard was living in the NY area (Bronx?) when last heard from.

I'd guess that Sylves Records was Porgy's own label BUT why he would put out 2 x 45's with almost the same release number I don't know .....

    Sylves 123 (P&Ms 45)  AND  Sylves S123 (Porgy Williams -- Lonely Man's Hum")  

 .... obviously #123 was just made up as an easy number to utilise but why use it twice ? 

 

 

Has anyone ever hear "Estabu" ?

 

 

 

[Only Dreaming]

Thanks for posting the sound file up Tim. Great stuff. 

Dave 

[Tlscapital]

Résurrection time for this old 'discography chronological quest of mine on these releases for these 2 fab slabs of soul that still have the grace not to be swallowed in the TOP500 this record released 4 times in two pressing plants.

All of Porgy & his Monarchs's previous releases on major labels are dateable but none of the 123 Sylves are that yet. Have gotten into comparison with other contemporary Chess releases trying to figure out a "window frame" time there.

Mala 'stay' July 1963

Musicor 'that girl' May 1966

Musicor 'my heart cries' December 1966

Verve 'love chain' May 1968

Verve 'that's my girl' July 1968

Sylves 'that's my girl' Chess distr. possible 'window frame' time between June 1968 and November 1969

Sylves 'that's my girl' local NY deep green Sylves possibly dating anywhere from mid to late 1969...

So the Sylves Chess distributed promo copies used that white & fade/shadow grey "promotional copy not for sale" patterned paper label on some but not all Chess promo releases between April and November 1966.

The pressing plant using the double 'DJ COPY - Plug Side' imprint on promotional sky blue/white fade Chess label copies between between June 1968 to November 1969 was also used on the Sylves Chess distributed promo copies.

Indicating that the the promo Sylves used some left over white & fade/shadow grey "promotional copy not for sale " patterned Chess label paper. Released most likely sometimes after the Verve withdrawn promo release.

As these two share too many similarities on their respective labels made in the same pressing plant that could imply a bad twist in the contract between Verve and Porgy & Monarchs/Richard Tee. Such is my plausible theory at least.

The 'love chain' Verve success not meeting the artists expectations could have put a last minute dispute 'HALT' to their forthcoming Verve 45 release just out of the pressing plant once a deal was instantly passed on with Chess for this release.

Sparing Verve a law action maybe ? Hence that the Sylves releases were made without the Verve mix reels. Going by the numbers of NOS discounted Sylves Chess distributed stocker copies about the commercial success was amiss.

Leaving the local New-York deeper green Sylves release date more so a mystery. Often "claimed" to be the first of the Sylves releases though I doubt that. But going by the fonts used on this label these are mostly seen on early/mid seventies...

As opposed to the Chess distributed Sylves these are generally found in 'worn to the bone' condition. Meaning that locally it clearly received an enthusiastic public reaction and commercially it likely proved a rather good seller.

But was it a public first, simultaneous or a later reaction ? Could it have been contemporary to the Chess distributed release like Chess used to agree on back then with Sunday on Chess/Alteen and Denise Lasalle on Chess/Tarpon ?

Where the Chess/Sylves deal would be to take on the national promotion and commercial distribution and leave the local promotion and commercial distribution for the local Sylves release to the owner of it to make the most of it there.

Checking Richard Tee's other involvement on similar New-York labels design and fonts indicating a same pressing plant, team and time I come up with this match of Mary Davis 'woe be unto you' single on Conclave dating from October 1969 !

From memories these fonts were only seen on late sixties and early to mid seventies NY labels. All these hints lead to make this local deeper green Sylves release most seemingly the last in line. As a last attempt to cash in on it.

And just like the Sunday on Alteen or Denise Lasalle on Tarpon and this Porgy and the Monarchs all the Chess copies found were discount NOS indicating poor national sales as opposed to the worn out local copies found in numbers.

Meaning that if both the local and Chess distributed Sylves releases were simultaneous or contemporary consecutive like releases the according date of release could, would or should be anywhere between July and December 1969 logically.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

P.S. Porgy Williams solo effort 'a lonely man's hum' on his following Sylves 123 (?) release was also pressed in the same pressing plant that Verve used shortly from December 1969 up to February 1970 adding fuel to this theory.

Then it was also re-pressed in the same pressing plant but with fonts used by Verve whose number of releases pressed in that pressing plants pre and post-dates Porgy's 'lonely' so of no real 'hint' relevance to us here.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Tlscapital

[The Yank]

Here's an article from Record World (October 19,1968) mentioning the Sylves release. I'm not sure if this about the Chess distributed Sylves label or the independent Sylves label though - 

 

[Tlscapital]

WJMO was a Cleveland; Ohio based radio so could be considered into the New-York North-East 'perimeter' for local promotion an distribution I'd have believe. But I could be wrong too.

And if so this snippet about Porgy & the Monarchs 'that's my girl' on Sylves high on their chart could just be about the local NY press release more so than the Chess distributed one.

Coincidence October 1969 knocks a second time around in this quest with the matching to the New-York local non Chess distributed Sylves of Mary Davis 45 on Conclave as a new release then...

Still leaving the possibility to be either Sylves presses and then also still riding high in their play charts few months past either date of release too.  As nothing there states 'new' as opposed to Peaches & Herb, Young Holt Trio...

But I like the North-East bit and October 1969 factor for hints here dwelling into the theory that this local New-York Sylves release did achieve some success locally there and then. Going on late 1969 and not 1968 like often dated.

And if just like the previous Chicagoans Sunday on Alteen and Denise Lasalle on Tarpon adventures with the Chess people taking a deal for further national promotion and distribution in hope for greater success faith did not obey.

If it's a Chess practice (awaiting for a record to achieve first enough local success before considering to offer a national exposure with exclusivity for the initial local market) the Chess deal would second in line to the local press.

[Tlscapital]

First a little addition to their Discography gracefully pointed to me by member 'MalC' on here for what could actually be their very first release. Then what I believe to be the most logical chronology order for the last few ones even when solo ;

Tribune 'army of love' as Monarchs of Winston-Salem ??? 1962 ???

Mala 'stay' July 1963

Musicor 'that girl' May 1966

Musicor 'my heart cries' December 1966

Verve 'love chain' May 1968

Verve 'that's my girl' July 1968

Sylves 'that's my girl' local NY deep green Sylves possibly dating October 1968*

Sylves 'that's my girl' Chess distr. dating possibly November 1969*

Sylves 'lonely man's hum' Sylves (blue label) possibly between December 1969 and February 1970 - SOLO effort -

Sylves lonely man's hum' Sylves (silver label) later mix with extra guitar riffs and instrumental flip date ? - SOLO effort -

*Corrected from 1969 to 1968 in regard of the WJMO radio playlist featuring it !

Edited February 1 by Tlscapital

[Kenb]

i guess you know?..Sylves was Sylvester Willams ( Porgy's dad). There was also a Sylvester Williams Jr (Porgy's brother).

[Tlscapital]

9 minutes ago, Kenb said:

i guess you know?..Sylves was Sylvester Willams ( Porgy's dad). There was also a Sylvester Williams Jr (Porgy's brother).

Didn't know that. Thanks. Was wondering about that and now I do know what or who actually Sylves refers to. Lovely.

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

On 05/08/2023 at 22:45, Tlscapital said:

First a little addition to their Discography gracefully pointed to me by member 'MalC' on here for what could actually be their very first release. Then what I believe to be the most logical chronology order for the last few ones even when solo ;

Tribune 'army of love' as Monarchs of Winston-Salem ??? 1962 ???

Mala 'stay' July 1963

Musicor 'that girl' May 1966

Musicor 'my heart cries' December 1966

Verve 'love chain' May 1968

Verve 'that's my girl' July 1968

Sylves 'that's my girl' local NY deep green Sylves possibly dating October 1969

Sylves 'that's my girl' Chess distr. dating possibly November 1969

Sylves 'lonely man's hum' Sylves (blue label) possibly between December 1969 and February 1970 - SOLO effort -

Sylves lonely man's hum' Sylves (silver label) later mix with extra guitar riffs and instrumental flip date ? - SOLO effort -

I had the Silver label copy many moons ago. More of a crossover style version and 1974 date seems to ring a bell from memory. 
Andy

[Tlscapital]

4 hours ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

I had the Silver label copy many moons ago. More of a crossover style version and 1974 date seems to ring a bell from memory. 
Andy

1975 maybe ?

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

13 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

1975 maybe ?

Yes 75 I knew it was mid 70’s

 

[Kenb]

On 05/08/2023 at 22:45, Tlscapital said:

First a little addition to their Discography gracefully pointed to me by member 'MalC' on here for what could actually be their very first release. Then what I believe to be the most logical chronology order for the last few ones even when solo ;

Tribune 'army of love' as Monarchs of Winston-Salem ??? 1962 ???

Mala 'stay' July 1963

Musicor 'that girl' May 1966

Musicor 'my heart cries' December 1966

Verve 'love chain' May 1968

Verve 'that's my girl' July 1968

Sylves 'that's my girl' local NY deep green Sylves possibly dating October 1969

Sylves 'that's my girl' Chess distr. dating possibly November 1969

Sylves 'lonely man's hum' Sylves (blue label) possibly between December 1969 and February 1970 - SOLO effort -

Sylves lonely man's hum' Sylves (silver label) later mix with extra guitar riffs and instrumental flip date ? - SOLO effort -

Line up for Tribune 'army of love' as Monarchs was...

Porgy Williams, Otis Sanders, Richard & John Parks, and William Griffin.

Release date is as said probably 1962 ( no later, but possibly late 1961. The were working as a group from 1960).

 

Edited January 30 by Kenb

[Mal C]

I've put together a Discography, with as much info as I can find, includes the acetates, bootlegs / miss presses, and reissues, Dates are as best as I can get them, any suggestions or inaccuracies, throw em in.

Monarchs Of Winston
1962 - Monarchs Of Winston-Salem - Army of Love / Tribune (T-1002)

Porgy & The Monarchs
1963 (July)- Stay / Somebody Said (I'd Cry Someday) (Mala 462)
1966 (May) - That Girl / Is It for Real Baby (Musicor MU 1179)
1966 (Dec) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221)
1968 (May) - Love Chain / Magic Music Makes (Verve VK 10197)
1968 (July) - That's My Girl / (That) Boy and Girl (Verve VK 10609)
1969 (Oct)- That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Local NY Deep Green Release
1969 (Nov) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess distributed W-Demo
1969 (Dec) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess Distributed Light Green Iabel
1975 - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221) Bootleg Blue & Yellow label variation marked as demos
1975 (Oct) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221) Reissued & Mis-pressed by Musicor with Hey Girl (You're A Dream I've Always knew) instead of ‘Think Twice’.

Unknown - Porgy and the Monarchs - Congratulations, Unreleased Bell Sound Acetate (Musicor Recording) Spun at Stafford on Acetate.
1986 - Porgy and the Monarchs - Congratulations, released on Kent Lp 'Magic Touch' (Kent 057)

1995 (Oct) Porgy and the Monarchs - Keep A Hold on Me, Unreleased Musicor track was issued on a Goldmine CD 'Big City Soul Vol.4

2016 - Porgy And The Monarchs – Hey Girl aka It's A Dream I've Always Had / My Heart Cries For You / Outta Sight (OSV160) Reissue

2021 (April) Dean Parrish / Porgy & The Monarchs – Bricks, Broken Bottles and Sticks / My Heart Cries For You / Vampi Soul (45079) Reissue

Porgy Williams (Solo)
1970 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Let's Form a Committee (Sylves S-123) Blue Label
1975 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Just A Lonely Man's Him (Sylves) PW-100) Silver Label

------

 

[Peter99]

1 hour ago, Mal C said:

I've put together a Discography, with as much info as I can find, includes the acetates, bootlegs / miss presses, and reissues, Dates are as best as I can get them, any suggestions or inaccuracies, throw em in.

Monarchs Of Winston
1962 - Monarchs Of Winston-Salem - Army of Love / Tribune (T-1002)

Porgy & The Monarchs
1963 (July)- Stay / Somebody Said (I'd Cry Someday) (Mala 462)
1966 (May) - That Girl / Is It for Real Baby (Musicor MU 1179)
1966 (Dec) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221)
1968 (May) - Love Chain / Magic Music Makes (Verve VK 10197)
1968 (July) - That's My Girl / (That) Boy and Girl (Verve VK 10609)
1969 (Oct)- That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Local NY Deep Green Release
1969 (Nov) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess distributed W-Demo
1969 (Dec) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess Distributed Light Green Iabel
1975 - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221) Bootleg Blue & Yellow label variation marked as demos
1975 (Oct) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221) Reissued & Mis-pressed by Musicor with Hey Girl (You're A Dream I've Always knew) instead of ‘Think Twice’.

Unknown - Porgy and the Monarchs - Congratulations, Unreleased Bell Sound Acetate (Musicor Recording) Spun at Stafford on Acetate.
1986 - Porgy and the Monarchs - Congratulations, released on Kent Lp 'Magic Touch' (Kent 057)

1995 (Oct) Porgy and the Monarchs - Keep A Hold on Me, Unreleased Musicor track was issued on a Goldmine CD 'Big City Soul Vol.4

2016 - Porgy And The Monarchs – Hey Girl aka It's A Dream I've Always Had / My Heart Cries For You / Outta Sight (OSV160) Reissue

2021 (April) Dean Parrish / Porgy & The Monarchs – Bricks, Broken Bottles and Sticks / My Heart Cries For You / Vampi Soul (45079) Reissue

Porgy Williams (Solo)
1970 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Let's Form a Committee (Sylves S-123) Blue Label
1975 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Just A Lonely Man's Him (Sylves) PW-100) Silver Label

------

 

You've put a bit of graft in there Malc.

Good job mate.

Thank you.

Peter

 

[Mal C]

Just wondered, anybody have a scan, or confirm whether the 'Congratulations' Bell Sound Acetate was just a 7 inch, with congratulations written on it?  or was it off a 12 inch with other tracks?  I say that because I remember a 7 inch scan, but the pic on this YT clip has a 12 inch, could just be a picture of cousre..

 

[Tlscapital]

18 hours ago, Mal C said:

I've put together a Discography, with as much info as I can find, includes the acetates, bootlegs / miss presses, and reissues, Dates are as best as I can get them, any suggestions or inaccuracies, throw em in.

Monarchs Of Winston
1962 - Monarchs Of Winston-Salem - Army of Love / Tribune (T-1002)

Porgy & The Monarchs
1963 (July)- Stay / Somebody Said (I'd Cry Someday) (Mala 462)
1966 (May) - That Girl / Is It for Real Baby (Musicor MU 1179)
1966 (Dec) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221)
1968 (May) - Love Chain / Magic Music Makes (Verve VK 10197)
1968 (July) - That's My Girl / (That) Boy and Girl (Verve VK 10609)
1968 (Oct)- That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Local NY Deep Green Release
1969 (Nov) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess distributed W-Demo
1969 (Dec) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess Distributed Light Green Iabel

Porgy Williams (Solo)
1970 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Let's Form a Committee (Sylves S-123) Blue Label
1975 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Just A Lonely Man's Him (Sylves) PW-100) Silver Label

Bravo indeed for that completed 'discography' Mal C ! But as I too got proved wrong as contributor on here 'the Yank' post attest 'that's my girl' on Sylves first got a release soon after the Verve one by October 1968 and not 1969 ! And so to acknowledge that accordingly we must.

The WJMO radio chart doesn't state which Sylves press evidently was 'Hot' on the WJMO radio playlist but it's evidently one or the other. Should it be the local deep green release this would leave a date of release for the Chess distribution release soon after rather than late I believe.

Somehow it makes sense for the local deep green Sylves to hit the New-York streets first. Making then enough regional buzz to be noticed by the Chess group to pick it up. Giving Porgy Williams his ready made distinctive Sylves logo for his following independent solo releases.

[Neilb]

A really interesting thread.

Do you know if That's my girl was ever issued by Verve presumably on a dark blue or black label or was it limited only to the dj copy?

 

 

[Mal C]

Cheers Tim, as I said, I did my best on the dates, it aint easy!! lol.

So we get the below with that amendment on the date for 'That girl' (local green release). So going by our dates, it is just over a year from the local 'Porgy' release of 'That's My Girl' to Chess picking it up and getting it out on demo...  Intersting point on the verve release Neil, we havent seen an issue have we? seems given Porgy moved on with the song, it's likely Verve halted at the demo stage.. but like to know if it did ever get issued...

I've also added the flip on the Tribune release.

Finally, anybody out there know more about the 'Congratulations' acetate? I might ask Tim Brown about 'Keep A Hold on Me' as surely from the same source...?

------

Monarchs Of Winston
1962 - Monarchs Of Winston-Salem - Army of Love / Do the anything / Tribune (T-1002)

Porgy & The Monarchs
1963 (July)- Stay / Somebody Said (I'd Cry Someday) (Mala 462)
1966 (May) - That Girl / Is It for Real Baby (Musicor MU 1179)
1966 (Dec) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221)
1968 (May) - Love Chain / Magic Music Makes (Verve VK 10197)
1968 (July) - That's My Girl / (That) Boy and Girl (Verve VK 10609)
1968 (Oct)- That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Local NY Deep Green Release
1969 (Nov) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess distributed W-Demo
1969 (Dec) - That's My Girl / The Girl and The Boy (Sylves 123) Chess Distributed Light Green Iabel
1975 - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221) Bootleg Blue & Yellow label variation marked as demos
1975 (Oct) - My Heart Cries for You / Think Twice Before You Walk Away (Musicor MU 1221) Reissued & Mis-pressed by Musicor with Hey Girl (You're A Dream I've Always knew) instead of ‘Think Twice’.

Unknown - Porgy and the Monarchs - Congratulations, Unreleased Bell Sound Acetate (Musicor Recording) Spun at Stafford on Acetate.
1986 - Porgy and the Monarchs - Congratulations, released on Kent Lp 'Magic Touch' (Kent 057)

1995 (Oct) Porgy and the Monarchs - Keep A Hold on Me, Unreleased Musicor track was issued on a Goldmine CD 'Big City Soul Vol.4

2016 - Porgy And The Monarchs – Hey Girl aka It's A Dream I've Always Had / My Heart Cries For You / Outta Sight (OSV160) Reissue

2021 (April) Dean Parrish / Porgy & The Monarchs – Bricks, Broken Bottles and Sticks / My Heart Cries For You / Vampi Soul (45079) Reissue

Porgy Williams (Solo)
1970 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Let's Form a Committee (Sylves S-123) Blue Label
1975 - Porgy Williams - Lonely Man's Hum / Just A Lonely Man's Him (Sylves) PW-100) Silver Label

[Tlscapital]

53 minutes ago, Neilb said:

A really interesting thread.

Do you know if That's my girl was ever issued by Verve presumably on a dark blue or black label or was it limited only to the dj copy?

Only very few promos have surfaced as far as I could find through the internet. Did Verve then first pressed the promotional batches and await further 'air-play' reactions to accordingly press commercial copies or not ? Some companies at some times pressed promos and stockers simultaneously while others not.

There's nothing yet to be find about this Verve release story. So all I could 'guess out of it' was that by the time these promo copies were pressed the deal went down for whatever reason and likely no copies were even sent out to radios for promotion as nothing has been find yet about it on radio charts prior to the Sylves releases.

The few copies promos that have found their way out on the market could have been saved from the bin fate or given away to those involved in the record. The following release on Verve by the Webs also got a release from that same pressing plant on a black stocker label and two other pressing plant as well. But not Porgy's.

On a last note ; although both the Sylves releases have different remixes and masterings they are very similar in their playback rendition and their magistral 'B' side 'the girl and the boy' got saved from the pitiful low in gain Verve first mix. But the local Deep green Sylves for that 'B' side were all pressed off- center... But playable...

Edited February 1 by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

I'll add my 2 cents.  I never saw a store-stocker of "That's My Girl" on Verve, and in both Summers of 1968 and 1969 I made record buying trips across USA, including New York , Philadelphia, Baltimore-Washington, Boston, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Detroit, Buffalo metro areas.  So, I probably would have seen it IF it had a commercial release.

[Manfromsoul45s]

On 31/01/2024 at 20:07, Mal C said:

Just wondered, anybody have a scan, or confirm whether the 'Congratulations' Bell Sound Acetate was just a 7 inch, with congratulations written on it?  or was it off a 12 inch with other tracks?  I say that because I remember a 7 inch scan, but the pic on this YT clip has a 12 inch, could just be a picture of cousre..

 

Yes it is a 7" Bell sound Acetate. It's in my collection.