Looking through my records, and I checked my copy of Moses Smith. According to Johnny Manship it is very difficult to tell the original from the boot. I always though mine was a boot, although it could be original, I bought it on the way to Wigan form someones box. Anyway, JM says that the original has LW BF A in the runout, as has mine. But he says the record dips 1/3 inch from the centre. Mine certainly dips, but more like 1/2 " from the centre.

Can anyone confirm the original, and if it is, approximate value.

Paul

Looking through my records, and I checked my copy of Moses Smith. According to Johnny Manship it is very difficult to tell the original from the boot. I always though mine was a boot, although it could be original, I bought it on the way to Wigan form someones box. Anyway, JM says that the original has LW BF A in the runout, as has mine. But he says the record dips 1/3 inch from the centre. Mine certainly dips, but more like 1/2 " from the centre.

Can anyone confirm the original, and if it is, approximate value.

Paul

This issue I have that I believe to be an original is the same as yours.

The other I have which I think is the boot does not have the LW BF A in the run out.

(The D MOS 1 scratched in the boot is half as big again and the label is a lighter shade of orange, but if you don't have them both to hand that's pointless information?)

Looking through my records, and I checked my copy of Moses Smith. According to Johnny Manship it is very difficult to tell the original from the boot. I always though mine was a boot, although it could be original, I bought it on the way to Wigan form someones box. Anyway, JM says that the original has LW BF A in the runout, as has mine. But he says the record dips 1/3 inch from the centre. Mine certainly dips, but more like 1/2 " from the centre.

Can anyone confirm the original, and if it is, approximate value.

Paul

This issue I have that I believe to be an original is the same as yours.

The other I have which I think is the boot does not have the LW BF A in the run out.

(The D MOS 1 scratched in the boot is half as big again and the label is a lighter shade of orange, but if you don't have them both to hand that's pointless information?)

Hi Paul, Hi Simon

The White DEMO is Original, I bought It from Soul Bowl. dionn 508

It has the correct marks in the Deadwax

@ 6 O'Clock = "D - MOS - 1"

@ 3 O'Clock = "LW"

@ 2 O'Clock = "B F"

@ 1 O'Clock = "A"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't remember where I bought the Stock Copy but It only has "D MOS 1" scratched in the Deadwax.

I therefore question It's Authenticity, It is also a lighter shade of Orange.

However even though the Deadwax Isn't pitted as described in the Bootleg Guide.

It is almost certainly a BOOT.

------------* BOOT * 00000000000----00000000

-

(Pauls Copy)----- (Pauls Copy) ---->

It can be difficult to tell with the dionn Label

BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT THE ORANGE LABEL IS A LIGHTER SHADE WHEN COMPARED TO PAULS COPY

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another that I bought from Soul Bowl, and is the previous number. dionn 507

The Deadwax follows a similar pattern regarding the matrix

@ 6 O'Clock = "D - BTA - 9"

@ 3 O'Clock = "LW"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I Hope That This Helps

Edited August 9, 200718 yr by 45cellar

HI MATEY I AV HADE THREE RECORDS ON ORANGE /BLACK LABEL TO TELL THE ORIGINAL ITS GOT TWO UP SIDE DOWN M,S FACEING EACH OTHER IN THE DEAD WAX

Looking through my records, and I checked my copy of Moses Smith. According to Johnny Manship it is very difficult to tell the original from the boot. I always though mine was a boot, although it could be original, I bought it on the way to Wigan form someones box. Anyway, JM says that the original has LW BF A in the runout, as has mine. But he says the record dips 1/3 inch from the centre. Mine certainly dips, but more like 1/2 " from the centre.

Can anyone confirm the original, and if it is, approximate value.

Paul

HI MATEY I AV HADE THREE RECORDS ON ORANGE /BLACK LABEL TO TELL THE ORIGINAL ITS GOT TWO UP SIDE DOWN M,S FACEING EACH OTHER IN THE DEAD WAX

Right way up W`s actualy

A mate just brought a copy round for me to look at.

It has the BF etc but the other side only has DMOS 2 scratched in whilst my demo has LW as well.

Vinyl is not the same as demo and label is also attached differently.

Is the regular he has still the original.

ROD

The boot has a tapered edge and, if you listen carefully enough, plays a fraction too fast.

The boot has a tapered edge and, if you listen carefully enough, plays a fraction too fast.

Thanks Gene. He's still here with it.

Played it and we think it is faster. It's certainly nowhere near the audio quality of the dj copy.

It does have all the markings though on the A-side as mentioned above in the thread but as I said not on the b-side which as no LW like demo.

ROD

I don't have a copy of Moses Smith anymore but thought the following background info may be of interest to those who think it matters.

Some of this maybe common knowledge or repeat stuff I've posted before.

When I was working at Global Records from 72 to 76 we placed orders with Jamie/Guyden or to be precise their distribution company, Chips Distibutors at 2750 North Broad St, Philadelphia.They stocked a few oldies that sold well, mainly Duanne Eddy and the Showstoppers. Global had a warehouse a few blocks away so Ed Balbier ( Global's owner) would pick the orders up on his monthly buying trips. One time , mid 72 I think, he came back with a 100 copies of Moses Smith as the guy at Chips told him some UK buyer had bought some. The record wasn't that big at the time so the copies were offered to dealers, but not many knew it. I don't remember getting anymore after the initial lot had sold. These were definately originals as they came from the label owners and were not styrene re-issues. I don't who else bought them from Chips but it was probably Soul Bowl. They would have bought quite a lot if they could so there must have been quite a few around. As the record became a big oldie in later years Jamie/Guyden could have re-pressed some using the original masters and labels. It seems unlikely that anyone would have done a look a like boot in the 70s as Jamie would be willing to press some and it would be a bit risky to boot a Jamie title. You could end up swimming with the fishes.

At that time Global had a list from Jamie/Guyden of all the labels they owned. These included Arctic, Dionn, Vent, Phil LA of Soul. They would have some in stock still such as the Ethics and Showstoppers plus pop hits but any other title could be ordered in a minimum of 1000 copies. I should have tried ordering a few of everything just to see what was on the shelves. I don't recall Jamie stuff turning up as drilled deletions by the thousands so I think unsold stock tended to be kept. This was probably the case with the Moses Smith copies.

There were two or three Barbara Lynn Jamie records that were big in Holland so Global had these re-pressed. They were on styrene (I think) and the label was that used for Duanne Eddy hits but were the same record numbers.

As for the lettering in the dead wax maybe some people get a bit worked up about this. From my experience of getting records pressed in the UK for Global's Cream label the marks on the dead wax aren't anything sinister. I don't know if eveyone knows how records were made but its roughly this;

From the tape a master is cut on a cutting lathe. This is skilled and expensive and some engineers would put their name or initials on the master as well as the matrix number. Anyone remember '' Porkys Prime Cuts'' on UK Virgin.

A ''mother '' was then made from the master, followed by a set of stampers to press the records

The stampers would have to be identified on the dead wax as they wore out after about 4 or 5 thousand copies.

New stampers could be made from the mother for more copies and would have to have a different number or letter.

The first stampers for the Moses Smith would probably have done the demos and a couple of thousand stock copies. The next stampers would them have done the next batch. So having different lettering on a record doesn't always mean its a boot.

The labels for Cream issues were done first as sheets of Logo only on coloured paper and then overprinted and cut out for each release. The logo sheets were done in bulk and the finished labels would be done in about double what was needed as it was so cheap and if a record took off you couldn't spare the time for re-printing. I'm sure the same was done in the US. A bootlegger might not get the colour right so off colour labels may indicate something not right.

A speeded up Moses Smith sounds strange to me . It couldn't be done from the master so if it definately is faster it's propably a boot, unless a Jamie reissue was done from a new master and the engineer thought it sounded better a little faster. But in the end who knows.

Rick

Of course it matters what's in the dead wax.

I knew there was something fishy about you when you couldn't recite the ZTSC #'s for the entire Golden World catalogue that time. As I remember you were adamant "Spellbound" was 106735 when it was 107635. Rather an elementary mistake, which completely took the shine off the fact that you got all the others right. You didn't dare show your face for weeks.

I understand your explanation re masters from mother as to different markings.

My only interest was to establish whether my mate's copy was the original. He was owed money. Here's a MS orig at £X. Was it worth that.

There was a big difference in sound quality. Very muffled compared to the demo. You could barely hear that tinkling cymbal or whatever it is. And it did sound slightly faster, or at least I thought it did and so did my mate who had pointed that out to me before Gene replied.

Apart from that though very hard to say and Im really no wiser.

Hope you're well

ROD

I don't have a copy of Moses Smith anymore but thought the following background info may be of interest to those who think it matters.

Some of this maybe common knowledge or repeat stuff I've posted before.

When I was working at Global Records from 72 to 76 we placed orders with Jamie/Guyden or to be precise their distribution company, Chips Distibutors at 2750 North Broad St, Philadelphia.They stocked a few oldies that sold well, mainly Duanne Eddy and the Showstoppers. Global had a warehouse a few blocks away so Ed Balbier ( Global's owner) would pick the orders up on his monthly buying trips. One time , mid 72 I think, he came back with a 100 copies of Moses Smith as the guy at Chips told him some UK buyer had bought some. The record wasn't that big at the time so the copies were offered to dealers, but not many knew it. I don't remember getting anymore after the initial lot had sold. These were definately originals as they came from the label owners and were not styrene re-issues. I don't who else bought them from Chips but it was probably Soul Bowl. They would have bought quite a lot if they could so there must have been quite a few around. As the record became a big oldie in later years Jamie/Guyden could have re-pressed some using the original masters and labels. It seems unlikely that anyone would have done a look a like boot in the 70s as Jamie would be willing to press some and it would be a bit risky to boot a Jamie title. You could end up swimming with the fishes.

At that time Global had a list from Jamie/Guyden of all the labels they owned. These included Arctic, Dionn, Vent, Phil LA of Soul. They would have some in stock still such as the Ethics and Showstoppers plus pop hits but any other title could be ordered in a minimum of 1000 copies. I should have tried ordering a few of everything just to see what was on the shelves. I don't recall Jamie stuff turning up as drilled deletions by the thousands so I think unsold stock tended to be kept. This was probably the case with the Moses Smith copies.

There were two or three Barbara Lynn Jamie records that were big in Holland so Global had these re-pressed. They were on styrene (I think) and the label was that used for Duanne Eddy hits but were the same record numbers.

As for the lettering in the dead wax maybe some people get a bit worked up about this. From my experience of getting records pressed in the UK for Global's Cream label the marks on the dead wax aren't anything sinister. I don't know if eveyone knows how records were made but its roughly this;

From the tape a master is cut on a cutting lathe. This is skilled and expensive and some engineers would put their name or initials on the master as well as the matrix number. Anyone remember '' Porkys Prime Cuts'' on UK Virgin.

A ''mother '' was then made from the master, followed by a set of stampers to press the records

The stampers would have to be identified on the dead wax as they wore out after about 4 or 5 thousand copies.

New stampers could be made from the mother for more copies and would have to have a different number or letter.

The first stampers for the Moses Smith would probably have done the demos and a couple of thousand stock copies. The next stampers would them have done the next batch. So having different lettering on a record doesn't always mean its a boot.

The labels for Cream issues were done first as sheets of Logo only on coloured paper and then overprinted and cut out for each release. The logo sheets were done in bulk and the finished labels would be done in about double what was needed as it was so cheap and if a record took off you couldn't spare the time for re-printing. I'm sure the same was done in the US. A bootlegger might not get the colour right so off colour labels may indicate something not right.

A speeded up Moses Smith sounds strange to me . It couldn't be done from the master so if it definately is faster it's propably a boot, unless a Jamie reissue was done from a new master and the engineer thought it sounded better a little faster. But in the end who knows.

Rick

RICK, THE MOSES SMITH BOOT IS ALSO ON VINYL,NOT STYRENE ITS A LITTLE THINNER THAN THE ORIGINAL, A LIGHTER ORANGE AND IS MISSING THE DEAD WAX INFO AS PER ROGERS WHITE DEMO. EASY TO TELL IF YOU GOT ONE OF EACH AT HAND

DAVE

Of course it matters what's in the dead wax.

I knew there was something fishy about you when you couldn't recite the ZTSC #'s for the entire Golden World catalogue that time. As I remember you were adamant "Spellbound" was 106735 when it was 107635. Rather an elementary mistake, which completely took the shine off the fact that you got all the others right. You didn't dare show your face for weeks.

I understand your explanation re masters from mother as to different markings.

My only interest was to establish whether my mate's copy was the original. He was owed money. Here's a MS orig at £X. Was it worth that.

There was a big difference in sound quality. Very muffled compared to the demo. You could barely hear that tinkling cymbal or whatever it is. And it did sound slightly faster, or at least I thought it did and so did my mate who had pointed that out to me before Gene replied.

Apart from that though very hard to say and Im really no wiser.

Hope you're well

ROD

Rod

If it looks like a boot and sounds like a boot it is a boot, simples.

The point I was making about dead wax is that originals could have different letters or numbers but eveything else should be right.

Rick

RICK, THE MOSES SMITH BOOT IS ALSO ON VINYL,NOT STYRENE ITS A LITTLE THINNER THAN THE ORIGINAL, A LIGHTER ORANGE AND IS MISSING THE DEAD WAX INFO AS PER ROGERS WHITE DEMO. EASY TO TELL IF YOU GOT ONE OF EACH AT HAND

DAVE

Dave

I havn't seen the Moses Smith youv'e got but I remember other boots from around late 70s that were quite thin and tended to have thin sharp edges and often warped. As i said Jamie would have access to original labels so a lighter colour points to a boot. Making a boot a white label demo got round the colour match problem but at the time most buyers only wanted to listen to a record not put it under a microscope.

Rick

Dave

I havn't seen the Moses Smith youv'e got but I remember other boots from around late 70s that were quite thin and tended to have thin sharp edges and often warped. As i said Jamie would have access to original labels so a lighter colour points to a boot. Making a boot a white label demo got round the colour match problem but at the time most buyers only wanted to listen to a record not put it under a microscope.

Rick

I always carried a micrometer, a slide rule and a table of logarithms.

Im not particularly interested in the finer points myself but I did mull this over today.

As I understand you there are master plates but they wear out so new ones are made from the mother.

If that's right then this particular copy my mate had could only be explained by using the same plate as used for the demo "Girl across.. side and a different plate for the other side as the deadwax does not have LW like the demo.

As you say though if it looks like boot... It doesn't particularly and it has the same markings on "Girl.." side as the demo. BUT it sounds rubbish compared to the demo.

I wonder if people on here who think they have an original because of the A-side markings have checked the other side for LW and whether they've listened to the regular copy alongside the demo.

ROD

Edited January 13, 201114 yr by modernsoulsucks

I wonder if people on here who think they have an original because of the A-side markings have checked the other side for LW and whether they've listened to the regular copy alongside the demo.

ROD

Just flipped my copy, and along with the right markings on A side does indeed have LW on flip, but then again the label colour is what I would think a faded Orange? and honest Sir! I haven't just scratched in a "LW" with my school compass!

steve

To be honest Steve I've no real idea what that means as far as original v. boot.

Im right in saying then that apart from the D# and LW the b-side has no other markings but the A-side has the D#, LW BF and A which is exactly as my demo, so presumably you have the original issue.

However my mate's has all the markings on A-side but no LW on B-side so is his a boot?

Or is it as Rick infers that masters wear out and some original regular issues were pressed up using a different master for the B-side only.

What's the sound quality like on yours?

John M actually PM'd me today so no doubt he's looking at this thread and hopefully he can sort it out.

To be honest Steve I've no real idea what that means as far as original v. boot.

Im right in saying then that apart from the D# and LW the b-side has no other markings but the A-side has the D#, LW BF and A which is exactly as my demo, so presumably you have the original issue.

However my mate's has all the markings on A-side but no LW on B-side so is his a boot?

Or is it as Rick infers that masters wear out and some original regular issues were pressed up using a different master for the B-side only.

What's the sound quality like on yours?

John M actually PM'd me today so no doubt he's looking at this thread and hopefully he can sort it out.

Sound quality is good Rod, and can clearly hear those "tinkly" bits you were on about.

steve

was the white demo ever booted.. cant say ive ever seen one

dave

i thought mine was original.

It has the DMOS-1 on a side with the LW BF A

and on b side it has LW @ 9 o'clock (see scan).

it does not have upside down Ms facing each other tho'? or W's which ever in deadwax.

It is'nt particularly thick vinyl but has a straight edge, and dips 1 cm from centre (do not have a normal ruler in the house to save my life!)

P

Rick,

I got a bit mixed up with mother master,stamper in previous posts.

Got it now.

From that I assume engravings etchings on master and then mother are the same but then stampers could differ and it is the stampers that give the#'s on the vinyl.

SI and P.,

Well I'd say those are originals then but I don't think my mate's is. Im going to re-check his has NO LW despite A-side having correct markings. I did look at it thoroughly last time but I'll make sure. As Rick says stampers may have differenty markings but the poor sound quality on his tends me toward boot.

Been in touch with John again. I don't have his guide and no idea if it mentions LW on B-side.

ROD

i thought mine was original.

It has the DMOS-1 on a side with the LW BF A

and on b side it has LW @ 9 o'clock (see scan).

it does not have upside down Ms facing each other tho'? or W's which ever in deadwax.

It is'nt particularly thick vinyl but has a straight edge, and dips 1 cm from centre (do not have a normal ruler in the house to save my life!)

P

Mine is the same as yours and dips down at 1 cm except that the LW is at 3 o'clock

Steve

Re-checked my mate's copy and NO LW on b-side.

Does that mean it's a boot even though it has all the markings on A-side.

ROD

i thought mine was original.

It has the DMOS-1 on a side with the LW BF A

and on b side it has LW @ 9 o'clock (see scan).

it does not have upside down Ms facing each other tho'? or W's which ever in deadwax.

It is'nt particularly thick vinyl but has a straight edge, and dips 1 cm from centre (do not have a normal ruler in the house to save my life!)

P

Mines styrene........D-MDS-1 in first run at 7 o'clock on girl side LW at 4 o'clock, BF at 3 o'clock A at 1 oclock ...........other side LW one o'clock, D-M- 05-2 in first run at just past 3'o clock.....is it a boot, if so can the soul Police be easy on me as I have played it out?

Edited January 27, 201114 yr by wiggyflat

Here mine LW on both side, good sound quality save a few scratches

moses smith - the girl across the street - dionn

HI ALL. First off. loved Rick's piece of info, and is bang on with the correct info, the original copies from Chips, because of the price were all assumed to be bootlegs. as we now no this is not the case, in the same way James bounty prove yourself was not bootlegged until years a later, I once got a copy of Moses Smith and as stated had no matrix info, this is a counterfeit. very good but it will plays be snide even if you wait 10 years, original has matrix info as described, thats all you need to know. much rarer than it sells for because of the neg reception rumors in 73 of it being a bootleg,

Once again thanks Mr COOPER please right more often, Dave

I don't have a copy of Moses Smith anymore but thought the following background info may be of interest to those who think it matters.

Some of this maybe common knowledge or repeat stuff I've posted before.

When I was working at Global Records from 72 to 76 we placed orders with Jamie/Guyden or to be precise their distribution company, Chips Distibutors at 2750 North Broad St, Philadelphia.They stocked a few oldies that sold well, mainly Duanne Eddy and the Showstoppers. Global had a warehouse a few blocks away so Ed Balbier ( Global's owner) would pick the orders up on his monthly buying trips. One time , mid 72 I think, he came back with a 100 copies of Moses Smith as the guy at Chips told him some UK buyer had bought some. The record wasn't that big at the time so the copies were offered to dealers, but not many knew it. I don't remember getting anymore after the initial lot had sold. These were definately originals as they came from the label owners and were not styrene re-issues. I don't who else bought them from Chips but it was probably Soul Bowl. They would have bought quite a lot if they could so there must have been quite a few around. As the record became a big oldie in later years Jamie/Guyden could have re-pressed some using the original masters and labels. It seems unlikely that anyone would have done a look a like boot in the 70s as Jamie would be willing to press some and it would be a bit risky to boot a Jamie title. You could end up swimming with the fishes.

At that time Global had a list from Jamie/Guyden of all the labels they owned. These included Arctic, Dionn, Vent, Phil LA of Soul. They would have some in stock still such as the Ethics and Showstoppers plus pop hits but any other title could be ordered in a minimum of 1000 copies. I should have tried ordering a few of everything just to see what was on the shelves. I don't recall Jamie stuff turning up as drilled deletions by the thousands so I think unsold stock tended to be kept. This was probably the case with the Moses Smith copies.

There were two or three Barbara Lynn Jamie records that were big in Holland so Global had these re-pressed. They were on styrene (I think) and the label was that used for Duanne Eddy hits but were the same record numbers.

As for the lettering in the dead wax maybe some people get a bit worked up about this. From my experience of getting records pressed in the UK for Global's Cream label the marks on the dead wax aren't anything sinister. I don't know if eveyone knows how records were made but its roughly this;

From the tape a master is cut on a cutting lathe. This is skilled and expensive and some engineers would put their name or initials on the master as well as the matrix number. Anyone remember '' Porkys Prime Cuts'' on UK Virgin.

A ''mother '' was then made from the master, followed by a set of stampers to press the records

The stampers would have to be identified on the dead wax as they wore out after about 4 or 5 thousand copies.

New stampers could be made from the mother for more copies and would have to have a different number or letter.

The first stampers for the Moses Smith would probably have done the demos and a couple of thousand stock copies. The next stampers would them have done the next batch. So having different lettering on a record doesn't always mean its a boot.

The labels for Cream issues were done first as sheets of Logo only on coloured paper and then overprinted and cut out for each release. The logo sheets were done in bulk and the finished labels would be done in about double what was needed as it was so cheap and if a record took off you couldn't spare the time for re-printing. I'm sure the same was done in the US. A bootlegger might not get the colour right so off colour labels may indicate something not right.

A speeded up Moses Smith sounds strange to me . It couldn't be done from the master so if it definately is faster it's propably a boot, unless a Jamie reissue was done from a new master and the engineer thought it sounded better a little faster. But in the end who knows.

Rick

Agree with dthedrug, very interesting Rick love to read stuff like this

Thanks Dave and Steve,

Have done ,will do , Dave

Rick