over and out

Ivor....I didn't know we were beating ourselves up !

The problem with threads like this is that things go all over the place go off topic and then points end up being repeated over and over again over and over and over again and points get lost :search:

Which is exactly what I'm going to do

Edited February 11, 200718 yr by Simon White

My, how this has got us all up in arms! I've sent my toned down rant to the BBC S.B website (and urge everyone to do the same) but wanted to air my abridged views here. Ivor is spot on, all my black friends were into Reggae more than the Northern Soul we loved, simple as that.For Jazzie B to state the scene was white working class and racist makes my blood boil and to be honest f**ks me off that we can be tarnished in this way on a national TV programme and with no apparent counter view being aired to redress the balance. The relevant points has been well aired on this very thread so I wont go into my usual 'Victor Meldrew of Soul' rant right now. What I think we should be concentrating on is that the producers of this travisty allowed this point to go out unchecked and used, as someone stated earlier, selective editing of the Casino clips we all know pretty much off by heart now to illustrate and underline their assertion that we are, in short, a white racist scene. I don't know about you but this makes me veryvery angry that once again we have been screwed and, to their credit, the BBC have made the worst BAR NONE programme about our scene ever! Jesus even David Bowie was given more credit and airtime on the very same programme.

Apathy is a terrible thing boys and girls so don't sit there and moan int your mug of tea, get up and write to the S.B comments board, flood the Points Of View board and fight for the truth to be heard!!! If we allow this sh**te purporting to be representative of our scene to go unchallnged then we can only expect more of the same and, to be blunt, I don't want to have to be explaining to people in the future why I was part of a 'white working class racist scene' - do you?

Big O, I agree with you and Ivor. I think we all understand that Jazzy B is to soul music what Noddy and Big Ears books are to literary excellence and why he is being put up as influencial is beyond me. As Tony Rounce said, he had a good writer for a while, and that's it. Thank goodness this was only on BBC4, still a relatively obscure channel. By contrast the Beeb also did the rather good "Soul Deep" series a couple of years ago on BBC2, so they can do it when they put their minds to it.

Hi Steve, yep they can make a good prog when they want and the first episode was excellent which is why I was so dismayed at this pile of shite. Forgot to mention in the above that even the Skinheads were allowed to be portrayed as non-racist (which b4 anyone starts ranting about it I know is fair comment!!!) but this is why I was even more livid that we were singled out!!!! Why didn't they interview Searling, Ady, Keb even you Steve!???? At least we'd have had a fair balanced and correct portrayal. It will be interesting to note if any of our comments appear on the BBC 4 site, have a feeling mine won't despite being toned down to an 'angry soul man from Surbiton' style

That's OK Tony, I'm not getting at you personally either, since I'm sure that we both have the best interests of the music at heart. However just to put the record straight, in none of my previous comments did I ever say that I imagined (or even wanted) this series to be about 'Northern Soul', as I am primarily an all-round Soul fan, pure and simple and would have been perfectly happy had the REAL UK Soul scene been accurately reported.

Read my earlier comments again and you will find that I did not even mention or criticise the FIRST episode - which I suspected wouldn't be so bad, as a similar tale had been told before in the Jazz series, but queried whether the overall research for the series was going to be any better than usual. Overall it wasn't.

I took particular exception to the synopsis of the SECOND programme which went on about Wigan Casino and "the dreary North", plus the so-called "poll" which lists the ubiquitous Jazzy B as a contender for the most influential person in the development of UK Soul, along with other several other individuals chosen to appeal to the lowest common denominator* (*note to JM - Jimmy James excepted!) - but totally ignores the immense contribution to the UK Soul scene of the late Dave Godin!

It was glaringly apparent from reading the synopsis on the BBC website that this whole series was contrived to reach the politically correct and Londoncentric conclusions that I fear we will witness next week. I despair at yet ANOTHER wasted opportunity (due to the usual sloppy research) to broadcast what could have been a fascinating and insightful look at the UK Soul scene in general and the growth of home-grown Soul acts in particular.

In my own view, the crucial early contribution of groups such as The Real Thing and Sweet Sensation (as well as 60's pop-soul groups like The Equals, Foundations etc.) to the development and acceptance of UK recorded Soul music, easily outweigh the Johnny-come-lately efforts of Jazzy-B and his crew of sycophantic back slappers!

Big O, I agree with you and Ivor. I think we all understand that Jazzy B is to soul music what Noddy and Big Ears books are to literary excellence and why he is being put up as influencial is beyond me. As Tony Rounce said, he had a good writer for a while, and that's it. Thank goodness this was only on BBC4, still a relatively obscure channel. By contrast the Beeb also did the rather good "Soul Deep" series a couple of years ago on BBC2, so they can do it when they put their minds to it.

No, that was another one with a brilliant first epsiode then totally lost it after that, by the end no-one was watching. Think back, it got debated on here, the first one with Sam Cooke everyone was raving about.

Apathy is a terrible thing boys and girls so don't sit there and moan int your mug of tea, get up and write to the S.B comments board, flood the Points Of View board and fight for the truth to be heard!!! If we allow this sh**te purporting to be representative of our scene to go unchallnged then we can only expect more of the same and, to be blunt, I don't want to have to be explaining to people in the future why I was part of a 'white working class racist scene' - do you?

Personally I have plenty of black friends but I only know of a handful who would even bother to listen to Northern a little. They are too interested in other genres, but they definetly dont think the northern scene is racist

Just watched my recording of this and what a pile of steaming poo.

This program used racism to sensationalize what never existed.

Is it because of the times we live in that racism is such an emotive topic, and was it used purely for that effect?

Just reminds me of the same inaccuracies that were politically motivated by England Our England.

30 years on and how little changes.

I,m sure by the time next weeks programmes aired we,ll all be up in arms.

Georgio Micheal is on the agenda, my wife buys his greatest hits in tesco and I hide them away in a cupboard so she can,t find them.

I was a skinhead back in the late 60,s, and the majority of folk where I lived were black and skinheads too.

i used to like Norman jays show on LONDON LIVE a few years back, you,d get a good cross section of soul, but far more recently he plays all that mix stuff repeatative beat dance music. Certainly not for me.

Really think I,m getting to like Ivor, this man talks sense.

Finally if your into a bit of Reggae and live in london theres always plenty of pirate stations playing , well great stuff you never hear on radio or clubs.

Jazzy B seems to have put his foot well in it i think, although as somebody who frequent both Northern and Southern /London clubs there was always a far more multiracial mix in London.

And it was true that Black Soulboys were regarded as gay by there own, if only in a superfictial way.

Check out the Channel 4 movie YOUNG SOUL REBELS, the fashions of the time around 76 are spot on, and the gay slurs on the black soulboys runs prominent through the movie.

The early london funk scene took a lot of influence from the new york gay disco scene, without even knowing it.

My, how this has got us all up in arms! I've sent my toned down rant to the BBC S.B website (and urge everyone to do the same) but wanted to air my abridged views here. Ivor is spot on, all my black friends were into Reggae more than the Northern Soul we loved, simple as that.For Jazzie B to state the scene was white working class and racist makes my blood boil and to be honest f**ks me off that we can be tarnished in this way on a national TV programme and with no apparent counter view being aired to redress the balance. The relevant points has been well aired on this very thread so I wont go into my usual 'Victor Meldrew of Soul' rant right now. What I think we should be concentrating on is that the producers of this travisty allowed this point to go out unchecked and used, as someone stated earlier, selective editing of the Casino clips we all know pretty much off by heart now to illustrate and underline their assertion that we are, in short, a white racist scene. I don't know about you but this makes me veryvery angry that once again we have been screwed and, to their credit, the BBC have made the worst BAR NONE programme about our scene ever! Jesus even David Bowie was given more credit and airtime on the very same programme.

Apathy is a terrible thing boys and girls so don't sit there and moan int your mug of tea, get up and write to the S.B comments board, flood the Points Of View board and fight for the truth to be heard!!! If we allow this sh**te purporting to be representative of our scene to go unchallnged then we can only expect more of the same and, to be blunt, I don't want to have to be explaining to people in the future why I was part of a 'white working class racist scene' - do you?

I don`t agree. They want attention - ignore them.

Personally I have plenty of black friends but I only know of a handful who would even bother to listen to Northern a little. They are too interested in other genres, but they definetly dont think the northern scene is racist

That's because it isn't. Beats me why they get a talking head on when said head knows nothing. If Jazzy B doesn't care for Northern that's fine. But it's like me expressing an opinion on big game hunting. I know it's out there but it's never appealed to me and I've never tried it.

Then again if the BBC wanted to waste some licence fee on me I'd wing it and pretend I knew what I was talking about.

I,m sure by the time next weeks programmes aired we,ll all be up in arms.

Georgio Micheal is on the agenda, my wife buys his greatest hits in tesco and I hide them away in a cupboard so she can,t find them.

I was a skinhead back in the late 60,s, and the majority of folk where I lived were black and skinheads too.

i used to like Norman jays show on LONDON LIVE a few years back, you,d get a good cross section of soul, but far more recently he plays all that mix stuff repeatative beat dance music. Certainly not for me.

Really think I,m getting to like Ivor, this man talks sense.

Finally if your into a bit of Reggae and live in london theres always plenty of pirate stations playing , well great stuff you never hear on radio or clubs.

Jazzy B seems to have put his foot well in it i think, although as somebody who frequent both Northern and Southern /London clubs there was always a far more multiracial mix in London.

And it was true that Black Soulboys were regarded as gay by there own, if only in a superfictial way.

Check out the Channel 4 movie YOUNG SOUL REBELS, the fashions of the time around 76 are spot on, and the gay slurs on the black soulboys runs prominent through the movie.

The early london funk scene took a lot of influence from the new york gay disco scene, without even knowing it.

I can remember at school in East London in the mid to late 70's that any of the black kids who said they liked soul (and/or disco) used to have the piss taken out off them badly by the other black kids

Edited February 11, 200718 yr by richard

A truer word(s) were never spoken.... make your own programme....

...all people have done since is bitch about it !

"If you don't like what we've said about you, then f*** off and make your own f****** programmes!"

Yes, I can well imagine that to be the typical BBC response to anyone daring to question their superior judgement and elitist attitudes. It's all very well saying "make your own video etc.", but Ian Levine had considerable financial resources at his disposal (and lost a great deal of it through ventures such as these)

How can the average Soul fan possibly compete with such as the BBC - who's finances remember are funded by US the long suffering public - when they have such a large and captive audience for any slanderous distortions they choose to broadcast? How much I wonder were the researchers PAID to shovel up this tripe? Another golden opportunity sadly wasted, as I predicted, though it gives me no pleasure whatever to say so.

It may not be what some people like but on the greater scale of things does it really matter...

So as they know nothing about the Northern scene and are too bone idle to find out they revert to patronising rubbish....

The trouble is, the sky high salaries of the "bone idle" researchers for this series are ultimately being paid by us, the public!

It may not be what some people like but on the greater scale of things does it really matter...

It matters for the very reason I mentioned near the beginning of this thread. That many future researchers will take the misleading comments made in this programme at face value ("...after all, it WAS on the BBC !") and will be using this important and high profile series as reference material for their own projects, essays and books, hence perpetuating such crass myths and distortions ad. infintum.

By not putting down my full quote this could also lead to or cause distortion on my opinion i was trying to get across.

As the majority of people who like Northern Soul or Soul music in some of it's other Genres myself included, we may be upset at how some of the comments did come across.

But somehow i can't see soul fans to suddenly stop turning up at venues up and down the country, because of a few comments made by people who clearly don't know anything about the past/current scene what so ever.

I'd feel slightly more worried and annoyed about the comments if it was made by someone influential who is involved and respected within the current Northern Scene.

Hence the other quote make your own program maybe then we MIGHT get a truer reflection of the current/pass Northern scene

Like i also said people know what music they like and why they like it so why do you feel you have to justify it

Edited February 12, 200718 yr by realsoulfan

Well it all adds up very nicely those baggy bottomed skinner jeans that came in denin and latter white were the trademark of the 70,s northern youth.

That just gave the game away straight away.

It was the same on the Soulscene up north baggies , down south parralells and dare I admitt it Pegs.

Check out those old issues of Black Music and Blues and Soul for the evidence. via the classifieds.

Not going to get into that old North/South wind up it's all bit old hat now. One thing I do know is that as a very naive, impressionable 14 year old skinhead in 1970 I and just about every kid of my age sat down to watch a locally aired documentary we hoped might reflect something of our lives. It was done by local TV and showed local characters. I saw a clip of it last Friday night I didn't think it was particularly relevant to the show( the other skinhead footage done in what I assume was a London club with mixed goups dancing to ska was relevant) but it really took me back.

I'm not going to comment on this any more I think we'll just have to differ on this one.

All the best

Manus

Just scanned through the latest posts whilst screaming at the kids on half term and noting the Beeb haven't posted my comments on their forum! With regards to 'why should we bother with these dickheads' tone of some of the points above well if we dont challenge this type of blatant agenda based lie then in the future people are going to take reference to it as being the truth and history yet again gets rewritten. I know this programme wont put off the true Soul fan from attending venues etc but it is going tobe sorced as a reference in the future and thats why we should all at leat try and get Aunty to sort her act out or at the very least post our opinions so that a balance can be struck. As for my black friends that saw the programme they aren't too happy either about the comments that Jazzie B made or the coverage of the 80s soul scene, so it isn't just us!!!!

ON THE SUBJECT OF NORMAN JAY,I HAVE MET HIM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS AND HE SEEMS A VERY GENUINE,DOWN TO EARTH GUY WHO JUST LOVES HIS MUSIC FOR WHAT IT IS. HE DEFINATELY DID GO THE MECCA BECAUSE CHARLIE REES[A MANCHESTER LAD,LIVING IN LONDON] REMEMBERS HIM GOING ON THE TRAIN WITH THEM. NOT THAT IT REALLY MATTERS,BUT HE DEFINATELY WAS KNOCKING AROUND BACK THEN.

Ive', I would never doubt the word of Charlie Rees for a minute - but the point I was really trying to make, more than anything else, is that in that Eddie Holman sleevenote Norman talks about being astounded that the kind of records that he heard at (whichever northern do's he went to) were excatly the same as the record he was playing at his own do's in London.

Is there anyone at all on here who remembers a black version (and I assume it would be a black version, given that Norman is himself black) of the Northern Scene down here in London? Wouldn't I, as someone who was going to both soul and reggae do's back then, have heard even a whisper about it?

Mind you, I do remember dancing northern style to Young Holt's instrumental of "Just Ain't No Love" down the Roaring 20s one night, as played - possibly accidentally - by Lloydie Coxsone. That, I think, was the night that someone threw a full coke bottle at my head,missed by about three inches I'm told...

TONE

Here's a little item that I'm sure Jazzie B thinks is the backbone of every Northern Soul fan's collection...

Just scanned through the latest posts whilst screaming at the kids on half term and noting the Beeb haven't posted my comments on their forum! With regards to 'why should we bother with these dickheads' tone of some of the points above well if we dont challenge this type of blatant agenda based lie then in the future people are going to take reference to it as being the truth and history yet again gets rewritten. I know this programme wont put off the true Soul fan from attending venues etc but it is going tobe sorced as a reference in the future and thats why we should all at leat try and get Aunty to sort her act out or at the very least post our opinions so that a balance can be struck. As for my black friends that saw the programme they aren't too happy either about the comments that Jazzie B made or the coverage of the 80s soul scene, so it isn't just us!!!!

O, they havnt posted my comments either mate....it seems any negative comments about this programme has been carefully edited out....so much for a points of view forum..Delx

Ive', I would never doubt the word of Charlie Rees for a minute - but the point I was really trying to make, more than anything else, is that in that Eddie Holman sleevenote Norman talks about being astounded that the kind of records that he heard at (whichever northern do's he went to) were excatly the same as the record he was playing at his own do's in London.

Is there anyone at all on here who remembers a black version (and I assume it would be a black version, given that Norman is himself black) of the Northern Scene down here in London? Wouldn't I, as someone who was going to both soul and reggae do's back then, have heard even a whisper about it?

Mind you, I do remember dancing northern style to Young Holt's instrumental of "Just Ain't No Love" down the Roaring 20s one night, as played - possibly accidentally - by Lloydie Coxsone. That, I think, was the night that someone threw a full coke bottle at my head,missed by about three inches I'm told...

TONE

Back in the day mid 70,s I used to go to CRACKERS in Wardour Street regular.

I mean this club was quite small 200 people maximum, predomanently Funk tunes , there were a few tunes being played north and south that crossed over the 2 scenes but not many.

I can never recall seeing Norman Jay down there , and hes always spouting off about CRACKERS.

I think Thursday nights and Saturdays were the best nights, when you,d get the best dressers and dancers in.

On one occassion they had a small northern soul room upstairs, it was a Sunday night.

I recall looking foward to this, as I could show off my back flipping skills , and spins.

On my first back drop I was quickly dissmissed from the club , by the bouncers , who told me I could NOT do those acrobatics in the club.

I explained thats part of the dance style, but they were having none of it.

I had to wait outside all night for my lift home......

Edited February 12, 200718 yr by portobelloboy69

Back in the day mid 70,s I used to go to CRACKERS in Wardour Street regular.

I mean this club was quite small 200 people maximum, predomanently Funk tunes , there were a few tunes being played north and south that crossed over the 2 scenes but not many.

I can never recall seeing Norman Jay down there , and hes always spouting off about CRACKERS.

I think Thursday nights and Saturdays were the best nights, when you,d get the best dressers and dancers in.

On one occassion they had a small northern soul room upstairs, it was a Sunday night.

I recall looking foward to this, as I could show off my back flipping skills , and spins.

On my first back drop I was quickly dissmissed from the club , by the bouncers , who told me I could NOT do those acrobatics in the club.

I explained thats part of the dance style, but they were having none of it.

I had to wait outside all night for my lift home......

I actually played at Crackers a fewf times, my friend Paul Gratue was resident there every Sat night. There used to be a great dinnertime session at Crackers held every Friday with George Power in residence. People would bunk of school for those Friday lunchtime sesssions and I know Terry Farley, and Mr Jay used to attend them as did yours truely. George also was resident every Sunday night @ Crackers and his roadie at the time was a young Paul 'Trouble' Anderson. Those 2 went on to host Camdens Electric Ballroom on a Sat night. BTW Crackers was owned at the time by Bob Wheatly from Wheatly Tavens, who also owned The Lacy Lady- Seven Kings and The Green Man@ Leytonstone.

Memories eh......all good

Regards

Dr Bob Jones

I actually played at Crackers a fewf times, my friend Paul Gratue was resident there every Sat night. There used to be a great dinnertime session at Crackers held every Friday with George Power in residence. People would bunk of school for those Friday lunchtime sesssions and I know Terry Farley, and Mr Jay used to attend them as did yours truely. George also was resident every Sunday night @ Crackers and his roadie at the time was a young Paul 'Trouble' Anderson. Those 2 went on to host Camdens Electric Ballroom on a Sat night. BTW Crackers was owned at the time by Bob Wheatly from Wheatly Tavens, who also owned The Lacy Lady- Seven Kings and The Green Man@ Leytonstone.

Memories eh......all good

Regards

Dr Bob Jones

What happened to George, I wonder? I know he was involved in that soul radio station up Manor House way that used to share its airtime with London Greek Radio (understandably, George being Greek). Crackers on a Friday lunchtime was indeed a dynamite session - as mentioned on another topic here, I can never hear Wilbert Longmire's "Black Is the Colour" without thinking of the place.

Don't remember seeing anyone who looked like NJ there, but I'm not going to call Bob's memory into question as, to be honest, I wouldn't have been looking for anyone who looked like Norman...

Point for Ivor - if Norman's first sound system was called 'Good Times' surely that would suggest that he didn't start playing dances until after Chic's big 1979 hit?

TONE

Ive', I would never doubt the word of Charlie Rees for a minute - but the point I was really trying to make, more than anything else, is that in that Eddie Holman sleevenote Norman talks about being astounded that the kind of records that he heard at (whichever northern do's he went to) were excatly the same as the record he was playing at his own do's in London.

Is there anyone at all on here who remembers a black version (and I assume it would be a black version, given that Norman is himself black) of the Northern Scene down here in London? Wouldn't I, as someone who was going to both soul and reggae do's back then, have heard even a whisper about it?

Mind you, I do remember dancing northern style to Young Holt's instrumental of "Just Ain't No Love" down the Roaring 20s one night, as played - possibly accidentally - by Lloydie Coxsone. That, I think, was the night that someone threw a full coke bottle at my head,missed by about three inches I'm told...

TONE

I think with Norman there's a healthy dose of poetic licence. The words "history" and "re-write" come to mind. Seem to remember Keb had some harsher words to say on the man - essentially saying he was buying these records that the northern scene had dispensed with years earlier...or something similar. Anyway I have no wish to diss someone I don't know very well, so I'll leave it at that.

No Steve you are remembering correct as Keb and I have had words on this very subject many years ago! If memory serves right didn't he put this story into print as well? In short NJ was spouting off in a record shop about this great new record he'd discovered and how rare it was etc and Keb, listening, runs of and returns with a box full of said record, Mark III Trio 'G'Wan' (I think) plonks on counter and says he can have them all. Cue NJ's chin hitting floor. I have the article somewhere in the files so will try and source to confirm 100%. That said I can remember Taff and I also having this conversation about the Rare Groove scene, namely that so many of the sounds had been played on our scene (at that time) previousy therefore not a new scene really. Ah memories.

Back in the day mid 70,s I used to go to CRACKERS in Wardour Street regular.

I mean this club was quite small 200 people maximum, predomanently Funk tunes , there were a few tunes being played north and south that crossed over the 2 scenes but not many.

I can never recall seeing Norman Jay down there , and hes always spouting off about CRACKERS.

I think Thursday nights and Saturdays were the best nights, when you,d get the best dressers and dancers in.

On one occassion they had a small northern soul room upstairs, it was a Sunday night.

I recall looking foward to this, as I could show off my back flipping skills , and spins.

On my first back drop I was quickly dissmissed from the club , by the bouncers , who told me I could NOT do those acrobatics in the club.

I explained thats part of the dance style, but they were having none of it.

I had to wait outside all night for my lift home......

Did you go to the occasional Tuesday night out and out Northern sessions down there in the mid 70s? Myself, Ian Clarke, Bill & Mandy, Paul Corcoran and others went and there were about thirty to fifty of us, no problem with the dancing and bouncers but the black kids into new soul weren't very friendly and it nearly kicked off one night. The same would happen at most of the occassional London pub gigs through the 70s and early 80s with local white gangs too.

To get back to the programme for a moment,as I understood it the aim of the series was to chart the rise in receptiveness to Black Music in the UK, alongside the development of UK based soul acts which could capitalise on that increased awareness and tastes for something other than pop music.

Coverage of the Northern Scene was shoddy I admit but were we not just a beginning for soul to crossover into the mass market at the start of the 70's when as somebody previously mentioned things like the Tams,Formations and numerous Motown re-releases made the charts.

Im not even sure that a case can be made for a continous line from that point to the present day as IMO it was the hip hop revolution that changed the face of music and a lot of the homegrown styles, such as UK garage,drum'n'bass, can be traced to that rather than some sweaty nightclub in Wigan. In fact if we influenced anybody it is more likely to be Soft Cell or Fatboy Slim than Miss Dynamite.

Having said that what Bowie and the Clash were doing on the programme whilst the influence of US funk/disco in the 70's was hardly mentioned on groups such as Hi-Tension, Beggar & Co , L.O.W. was amazing.

I don't know what the final conclusion of the series is gonna be but I don't think anyone can deny that hip hop/R&b culture and music has made massive inroads into popular music but I still get the impression that the UK variety is still regarded as the junior partner.

As for the North /South divide I did live in London around 1972/73 and the Northern Scene was not as developed as up in Manchester. I regularly attended the Wheatsheaf pub and the music policy was across the board. I was told about the Bird's Nest but got the impression that it was run by a bunch of Del Boys!! Whilst it was difficult to find Northern 45s in Manchester you couldn't help falling over them down Sarth. I fancied a Mars Bar once and went into a newsagent somewhere around Bethnal Green and came out with almost 100 UK demos!!

That's not to say that the guys down there were not enthusiastic, knowledgable or friendly. Everybody I met was great. It was just that Northern hadn't really caught on to the same extent, which is why I can't really take Norman's claim seriously.

ROD

Edited February 13, 200718 yr by modernsoulsucks

I think they were covered under the 'Chants' heading...keep up at the back there.

Funny how this thread got round to clothes and hair eventually and now of most of 'em have no hair.

I was just reading back through the thread, missed this, the prize for most inovative use of a smiley in a long while must go to you Simon

I was just reading back through the thread, missed this, the prize for most inovative use of a smiley in a long while must go to you Simon

Thanks Bouge, but I'm not reading this thread anymore so I won't see this message.

As for the North /South divide I did live in London around 1972/73 and the Northern Scene was not as developed as up in Manchester. I regularly attended the Wheatsheaf pub and the music policy was across the board. I was told about the Bird's Nest but got the impression that it was run by a bunch of Del Boys!! Whilst it was difficult to find Northern 45s in Manchester you couldn't help falling over them down Sarth. I fancied a Mars Bar once and went into a newsagent somewhere around Bethnal Green and came out with almost 100 UK demos!!

That's not to say that the guys down there were not enthusiastic, knowledgable or friendly. Everybody I met was great. It was just that Northern hadn't really caught on to the same extent, which is why I can't really take Norman's claim seriously.

ROD

The Wheatsheaf was a great pub but much more across the board than the Bird's Nest, West Hampstead, which was the first out and out Northern club in London. The DJs were Mick Smith, Dave Rivers and Phil LA (who I can't remember) Dave Burton guested and they had some very big sounds between them, made several major discoveries and supplied several of the Northern DJs. Not wide boys but definitely a bit lairy!

After that there was a series of mid week club and pub gigs all great fun but 30-60 people until OBJ's in Hammersmith took off, leading to the 6TS in Covent Garden in Aug 79. That period is documented in the Kent CD booklet for "6TS In The Beginning"; a jolly good read.

Whoops, I've off-topiced again.

Thanks Bouge, but I'm not reading this thread anymore so I won't see this message.

Hang on

My comment re Bird's Nest Ady was purely tongue in cheek. Im sure I remember you too on Rupert St. Soho market. You've not changed a bit but I think that's more to do with the fact that you looked old then!!

I went up to the Torch once in a minibus with some of Bird's Nest lads and I think the topic of conversation was the Len Barry version of "Love love love" or maybe "I'll always need you". Think one of 'em had the rare LP anyway. Wasn't Fuller Brothers and Dottie Cambridge London finds?

But then with places like Moondog's and all the UK stuff lying about it wasn't that difficult if you had an ear for the sound.

I think the only time I went to 100 Club [i apologise but it's a long way] was to see J.J.Barnes do his first show in the UK sometime between Sept 72 and March 73. I think Im right about that, aren't I.

ROD

I went up to the Torch once in a minibus with some of Bird's Nest lads and I think the topic of conversation was the Len Barry version of "Love love love" or maybe "I'll always need you". Think one of 'em had the rare LP anyway. Wasn't Fuller Brothers and Dottie Cambridge London finds?

It was Tony Ellis (the 'other Tone') who had the Len Barry LP (still does, actually).

Very generous of you to give us Southerners credit for a couple of discoveries, Rod. Let's not forget about the hundreds of others that were dug out down here first, though - including some of the biggest records ever to grace any Northern dance floor

TONE

My comment re Bird's Nest Ady was purely tongue in cheek. Im sure I remember you too on Rupert St. Soho market. You've not changed a bit but I think that's more to do with the fact that you looked old then!!

I went up to the Torch once in a minibus with some of Bird's Nest lads and I think the topic of conversation was the Len Barry version of "Love love love" or maybe "I'll always need you". Think one of 'em had the rare LP anyway. Wasn't Fuller Brothers and Dottie Cambridge London finds?

But then with places like Moondog's and all the UK stuff lying about it wasn't that difficult if you had an ear for the sound.

I think the only time I went to 100 Club [i apologise but it's a long way] was to see J.J.Barnes do his first show in the UK sometime between Sept 72 and March 73. I think Im right about that, aren't I.

ROD

That'd be Tony Ellis with the Len Barry LP. Dave Burton got the second copy of Time's A Wasting from Cheapo on Rupert St market and flogged it to Minsh. He had a massive find with discoveries like Shing A Ling and Crazy Baby in a trunk full of US demos, can't remember if Dottie C was his, I was an impoverished student hanging with the big boys. JJ might have been a bit later, Jackie Wilson was 74/75 and it was around then, six or so years before we got there. The promoter Ron Watts has just come out with a book about his life (1st punk promoter) called 100 Watts.

My memory isn't all that so I couldn't remember if you made it to the Bird's Nest or not. I remember driving my Vespa (sorry it was cheap) back from there to St Pancras where I lived with 8 Special Brews inside me (pre-breathalyser) in about 5 minutes. And another time taking a Mandy and trying to get on a tube but by the time I had got up from the bench it had pulled out!

And another time taking a Mandy and trying to get on a tube but by the time I had got up from the bench it had pulled out!

I once asked a policeman if he could tell me where New Street Station was, he put his hands on my shoulders, turned me round 180% and pushed me forward, I was standing outside it and it was about 50 yards away...

I got lost in South East london last year so I went up to a 'Special' policeman and I asked directions.

He thought for a while and then said -

"I don't know where that is...you'd better go and ask someone"

Tone, not my intention to under represent the contribution of guys from the South. Im certain they played a major part on the periphery!! Without Billingsgate how could we have got our jellied eels up here.

It was just a vague recollection of my time down there which I really enjoyed and has stuck with me to such an extent that I still lapse into a foul-mouthed approximation of a cock-nee at every available opportunity.

ROD

"the seventies when, for me, there was a real opportunity to push black music forward, Radio 1 spent their time with idiots like Bates and Read gushing about being at the Bee Gee's houses or some other shite. Paedophiles like Gadd and King were heavily promoted. A&R men must have greased a lot of palms (or other parts of anatomies) to get Sweet, Bay City Rollers, Slade, Abba and all that crap on the air. I am eternally grateful it was so piss poor because it never distracted me from Al Green, Bobby Womack, the best underground music scene ever and sanity."

Nail and head. brilliantly written

"Im not even sure that a case can be made for a continous line from that point to the present day as IMO it was the hip hop revolution that changed the face of music and a lot of the homegrown styles, such as UK garage,drum'n'bass, can be traced to that rather than some sweaty nightclub in Wigan."

Would an argument be as hip hop was directly influenced by soul, funk and reggae recordings so in turn drum & bass and garage ect ect were also....so theres maybe a pissed lineage of influence there but not as clearcut as perhaps people would like? Unsure either way myself.....

Wish my local newsagents sold records. If they did it would be Ken Dodd singles no doubt.

Edited February 13, 200718 yr by mulf

Our newsagent sold records from 1978 until about 1971. This was in a village, population then about 6000. I bought:

build me up buttercup - foundations

blackberry way - the move

you ain't livin until your lovin - marvin & tammi

backfield in motion - mel & tim

from there and I remember my mum buying jennifer juniper by donovan and when a man loves a woman by percy sledge from the same shop. The only really carried top 50 records.

I always thought the first Dottie Cambridge came from Bostocks on Bradford Market.

I take your point Mulf. I was thinking more about the direct influence of 60's soul and including Northern in that.

I guess when Jay-Z samples Billy Hambric we can say for sure we had some input. Im sure you'd agree that it was the funk sound that formed the early basis for hip hop rather than what we listen to at a regular Northern night.

ROD

Wish my local newsagents sold records. If they did it would be Ken Dodd singles no doubt.

I lived in London, well Anerley, for a couple of years, 72/74, at the time most of the newsagents and the odd grocers had a rack of what they called ex-juke box records, some of them where, but a lot of them where american 45s, I think the company was called Pop Ex or something,.....often picked up a tune or two with my morning paper/milk....

as mentioned on another topic here, I can never hear Wilbert Longmire's "Black Is the Colour" without thinking of the place.

TONE

And there was me, down the road in HMVs, flogging the album - '77? I still have a copy - with the fried egg on the cover Off to play it now. Jo

A&R men must have greased a lot of palms (or other parts of anatomies) to get Sweet, Bay City Rollers, Slade, Abba and all that crap on the air.

And not forgetting the record reps who used to come into 'diary' shops - later equiped with Gallup machines

Just taken me ages to catch up and read through this one, ok 'Soul Britannia' seems to have missed the point totally, however one beautiful 'Hit you full on the face Mr BBC producer' thing to come out of this is there is pretty much the whole story, the full story about soul music culture in this country, the true and real 'Soul Britannia' within this thread right here on 'Soul Source', rather than send your comments directly to the BBC which will be ignored anyway i suggest this thread is sent in full to them as a 'Treatment' for a follow up programme which would tell the story which most people with a passion for our scene want telling, as yet the real story has never quite been told 'SWONS' had the chance to tell the whole story but...well you know what i mean on that one....lol, one person i feel who has the influence within television, a passion and a true understanding of the subject is 'Stuart Cosgrove' could pull it off if something could be submitted of substance and content rather than a watered down version with minor celebs who really don't know what they are talking about with incorrect quotes,insulting comments etc. maybe subjects like this need to be made and told by the people who are actually involved with the scene/culture/subject or leave it totally alone and simply savor and enjoy what we love underground and behind closed doors.

The subject of 'Soul' in this country needs far better treatment than this current series and until such programmes are made by the people for the people then sorry but it ain't really worth watching...i suggest the BBC, Robert Elms, Jazzie B and co 'Keep The Faith' well they invented it so they deserve it...enough said.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

:angry: I watched Soul Britannia with jaw-dropping disbelief! How can a scene that celebrates and appreciates black American rare soul be racist?? I was a regular at wigan casino and never witnessed any of the racism suggested by Jazzie B. This was just another poor effort at the portrayal of the Northern Soul scene by someone who obviously knows nothing at all about it. Why, whenever a TV programme is made about the scene, is it so badly misrepresented, embellished, or utterly false? It makes my blood boil.The Northern Soul scene is special and unique and it merits a TV programme being made about it, but for goodness sake can the makers please do their research and tell the story how it really is! I brought a digibox just to watch this programme, and abandoned my car in the snow just to get home to watch it - i really wish i hadn't bothered! Utter rubbish!!

LeighW

having watched this i missed the northern bits in episode 2 but while i enjoyed it can i just say. there should have been no reggae or ska mentioned yeah some might like it but to me it is not soul. It has it's own identity for music.

There is also too many on it who know nothing. could interview Jazzie b what do you know about Northern soul and he talks complete crap yet they don't get someone to talk about who knows what it is. loads on here could have sat there and told the full story.

Northern soul is still influenced into many of the 80's, 90's and today's music ie M People, Fatboy Slim, Soft Cell and Kayne West doing a sample of Move On Up it is funk and disco that ends up mostly sampled on these new Rap/R & B records

Hello

Just wanted to add a couple of points on this. Last summer at the V&A Ady Croasdell and a couple of others did a talk on the history of northern soul, with some soundclips, which worked really well both for those in the know and those new to it. Something like this for TV would be a much better representation of the scene - can't be that difficult, surely?

As for Jazzie B's comments, well, perhaps that was his experience at the time, whether we agree with it or not. But if he did say the scene was racist outright, that's a serious accusation and there should have been another view to counter that for the sake of balance.

I've also read similar comments by The Real Thing's Eddy Amoo, and it's pretty hard to argue with his view that northern soul is a white scene. If you believe otherwise,well, let's see your lists of top ten black northern soul DJs. (I tried it and came up with six names, five of which are from the mod scene, including one Sri Lankan!).