Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul?

Are we failing as a music scene?

Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul? Just been reading the posts about why we need DJ's, the great bun fight at Manifesto's Soul Night and Keb Darge - Scotland's Finest Export since Whiskey.

It seams to me that we have different groups who seam unable, unwilling or even uneasy to hear new and unfamiliar tunes and one of these groups seam to be on the up and up, are these all the people who left the Northernsoul scene when it was pronounced dead after the Casino closed?

I feel like I am about to paint my self into a corner but it is my personal opinion that we have a large group, who are now the majority, who stopped listening to Northernsoul after the casino and they have missed the third wave and a change in music when the likes of Richard Serling, Guy, Keb and Ady plugged away when all but the very faithful remained.

Now I do not intend to take any high ground because I was there, I was at that age, too young for the Casino I was amongst the group who where, as it turns out, to be privileged to hear and absorb the newer sounds. I believe that the legacy of this gives a more open minded approach to Northernsoul and that is why the likes of Middleton and now Maxim's separates some groups like oil and water, this is the only tragedy of Northernsoul.

Robbo once said to me that at the age of ten you have heard every sound you will ever hear and only the frequency will be different, but we were both off our tits at the time so this may well be bollox?

I can honestly say that a stop you in your tracks record is rarer than hens teeth, you more than likely need to hear some thing a few times before it sits well in your mental duke box and I think this is why a certain group don't or wont listen and dance to new stuff, to say its all shit is just a cop out, most of the Northernsoul records sound shite when played cold, try it on a none soulie.

If we are not carful we are going to become a pack of cats and dogs with those clinging to the likes of frank Wilson (nothing wrong with the track but the example stands) and the others who can and do want progressive new sounds.

I saw this kind of thing happen in the early eighties on the scooter scene when the Southerners and the Northerners met to find their particular takes on Mod where as different as chalk n cheese.

I also think that we have our fair share of shady promoters who just want to cram their venues with Soulies wearing baggy pants, no disrespect to baggy pants mind but you get my drift. (I do wear them from time to time)

I also think some of you DJ's need to remember us dancers more and at least bring the tempo mid way when the floor needs it, I will dance to anything new, I have danced to some howlers but I have also danced to music that sounded as if it had come from heaven. Dj's stop blaming the audience and the audience stop blaming the DJ's, just dance and enjoy it1

Lets get back to our Northernsoul roots and stop holding on so desperately to the past, you can listen to the snake on the way home.

Forgetting the R & B/Latin/Funk/Modern etc that's been lovingly thrown into the mix (which I do wholeheartedly agree with) I still lOVE the idea of fresh & new "Northern Soul" , just don't seem to be hearing a lot of it being played out lately. Just in case I've been guilty of napping, or not paying attention, what are the best "60's" discoveries this Yeari.e. 2009 , I mean about 75% of this site is made up of budding D.J.'s ,scouring the net, there must be a swathe of cracking new stuff I'm missing out on?

Des Parker

But what about Lifeline Sarahleen. Large venue with a big - full dancefloor. Puts the theory that events other than Nostalgia ones are small on its tush.

Do like your idea of fitting tunes other than the usual 200 or so into a nostalgia night - but would it work? Or would the DJ, as some have posted on here before, have a mob of angries shouting get this rare sH17e off. Amazing how they can tell its rare by the sound

Bang on about Lifeline pal

Maybe all promoters should insist that DJ's play 4 or 5 records from left field just to spice things up a bit

maybe all promoters should insist that DJ's play 4 or 5 records from left field just to spice things up a bit

Yes they should Chalks then the crowds ears aren't conditioned into a certain rut

Rob

James you are regressing further into your childhood by the minute.

I really do need to go and do some work but so I am not misrepresented by other points, I didn't say anything about it being bad or good specifically about playing Salvadors, I used it as an analogy of traditional vs progressive, and if you read it properly I probably complimented your use of it at Lifeline, a case of woods and trees here.

My main point is your change in direction, away from these trendy dos to a more traditional based Northern scene, no matter what you say there is no other way your first response can be read and thats what Chorley is advocating. So either you are saying it to annoy CLiff or you have changed. Simple really. If calling me silly names is your only way of answering this, which is actually at the crux of the debate of why the scene has gone tits up when you think about it, then so be it.

I'm not 'advocating' anything, I was merely stating what my favourite musical prefernces were and why.

Seemingly something that is a bit too democratic for people like you to absorb. And you have the audacity to moan at being called something after your initial petulant outbursts attacking people on this thread. As I said dream on, mate.

As a' trendy'soul boy in the 70s I frequented a local pub which had a rock n roll night once a week . I would sn***** at the the old fellas in their drapes and creepers, 'trying to re-live their youth' .

After striking up conversations with some of these chaps I came to realise that their passion for the music and their scene was just as strong as mine.

Younger people who attended these nights went on to become the grass-roots of the rockabilly scene which took off in the 80s but which has now become underground again, and will as all things do come to an end.

The irony is not lost on me .

Maybe 10 years ago rock n roll was dead. But it now merged into a mix of Burlesque, Fashion, 50`s style tattoos & clothes, RnR, RnB, Swing, Punk, Surf.....

Quite a few kids are getting into this stuff. In Hamburg you have already two venues which offer the above, Queen Calavera and King Calavera. Few times a year you have the occasional concert, club night.....!!! Sometimes they come to our 60's Soul Nights......Well, it depends on the DJs and the playlist......They hate Modern Soul!!!

Oh, and Northern Soul here in Germany is also growing a little in popularity!!!

Yeah and in your world pal, you come on here and blatantly insult me and rubbish me and then you expect me to sit here like a fooking schoolboy and respond to your frigging interrogation like I'm some kind of geek? And all because of what? Somebody disagrees with you and so out come the insults and the cheap shots. Oh and JAMES is not wagging his tail correctly and so he gets it too. Dream on mate. I've never imposed my views on anybody, all I've done is try and explain mine at length and qualify them. I've also appealed for a good spirit on several ocasions during this thread but if you just want to give it a large one, find me in person and insult me. I'm not a keyboard warrior.

Ahh see you have now gone the more conventional Soul Source way of ignoring the points made and throw in a threat instead, I should be in Brixton at do next week, listening to some of that civilisation threatening genre widening music you so abhor, feel free to come and sort me out, although you may have to join an ever growing queue. Alternatively I will carry on the heated debate with you on the roof terrace as it used to be normal to do about music and the scene, but obviously no more.

Firstly then, in the sake of debate, I will apologise for taking the piss out of you, which is what it was not the mass defamation you insinuate above. In my defence, slightly, I assumed you would be used to, as I am, having the piss taken out you, as I am, for being rather opinionated, as I am. I obviously shouldn't carry on debate in same manner as I would round a pub table, as I obviously don't understand peoples deep sensitivity to being butt of humour,

Further in my defence if you really don't see how you talk over people with your capitals all over the place, and that you almost always dismiss others peoples experiences in favour of your own, without qualifying it no matter what you think,which was my kind of serious point among that, then we read differently. Nevertheless it was mean to be humorous as opposed to deeply hurting as you seemed to find it and I suppose this thread has taught me, again, my smiley free humour obviously doesn't translate, or maybe it hits the bone.......

And as this was my first post on this, not sure how you can say it was a response to people not agreeing with me.

None of which changes the fact I made some salient points, in fact you could say cut to the crux of the matter, none of which you are now willing to debate or answer, hmmmmm.

Talk about dogmatic and confrontational. You mate are what is wrong with this scene today, you are so far up your own arse and think your on some kind of ordained mission to educate people. Seen and heard it all before mate. Pathetic.

Dogmatic definitely, and perpetually proud of that, shouldn't everyone be when they believe a point is worth arguing, and they believe passionately in that point, and more so when I get fed up with opinions being thrown around as facts and facts been ignored, if you had been on here a bit longer you would know that is my pet hate, although normally I don't bother having a verbal ruck now as we always seem to end up here!

Confrontational, probably, but not in the way you mean, I think its right to always confront mistruths and misrepresentations of peoples opinions that impact on my beliefs, again proud of that, but not personally confrontational, don't believe in it and I am a big sap anyway so never gets me anywhere, there is some inside information for you.

And as for what is wrong with the scene, no, one thing you can't blame me for, what is wrong is people have stopped caring (me included to a certain extent) and given up on what is important, making daft excuses along the way, and therefore f**cking up the scene I felt part of. People like Cliff and others haven't, whether you like it or not, and they care passionately about a good scene, hence why I sometimes feel obliged to come out of my posting retirement and throw my sixpence worth in, most of which has been ignored so far.

So in summary Patto probably says it best, I still stick with if you don't care leave it to people who do, rather than run them down with irrelevant arguments.

On that note I am off to join Cliff in the media files, much nicer and less dangerous over there.

I hope you dont mind I answer here rather than PM, don't want to be accused of being a coward, and don't want James to think I am ignoring his diversionary answers.

I said it because you ramble, self explanatory I thought and generally I do not read your responses as I didn't on here, Your penchant to throw in crap jokes, ala Patrick Hernandez and much worse, and often just babble ala your grading response up there often just belittles any debate going on, so I ignore your posts normally. Sorry if that seems harsh but you did ask, and in all honesty maybe if more of the people who do mention this said it you, you wouldn't be surprised.

Sorry, feel free to send me threats by PM, it seems to be the normal response for people hearing home truths they dont like,. and in case you do want to reflect, why dont you click on your last posts and read through them.

I really do have to go and earn my dosh now!

You really are an arrogant little sod arent you?

I'm not 'advocating' anything, I was merely stating what my favourite musical prefernces were and why.

Seemingly something that is a bit too democratic for people like you to absorb. And you have the audacity to moan at being called something after your initial petulant outbursts attacking people on this thread. As I said dream on, mate.

Aah we have returned at identical times, it must be fate,

No you weren't you were putting anyone down that didn't fit with your 76/77 definition and dared to widen that Northern genre, ignoring the fact it did evolve over the next 20 years that lots of us enjoyed and is possibly evolving again currently. Because you don't like it doesnt mean it didnt happen or its wrong. It won't be that hard to dig through this and quote what you said, at least stand by what you say.

I didn't complain about being called anything, stick to the facts please, I just pointed out to James he was acting childish as I was winning the argument (yes I am competitive too), James is used to me winning however, he just didnt handle it well today, and as he knows I have been too nice to him lately so our love affair was due a dip.

Glad to see your dislike of me now has brought you and James together, its nice to be nice.

I really have had enough of this, either debate the facts and the points I made or lets leave it, I wont expect an invite for dinner soon, but mayone one day.....

If the scene has gone full circle then that means its on its second lap so to me that means another 40+ years

ive been in the scene 5/6 years and love every minute of it, well almost

one thing i cant understand but kind of accept and that is why the fook do peeps that have been in the scene 40 years still only want to listen to the same tunes all the time

blimey the biggest buzz i get is hearing tunes i dont know when im out and about

its all new to me and as long as there are venues that keep playing lesser known tunes and djs with a passion to share their taste and love of their collection i shall keep being a happy Bearsy

heres to the next 40 years

You really are an arrogant little sod arent you?

Definitely my last word on this, the only genuine apology I probably owe is ImberMan, I didn't believe he did start this until after he said so, maybe I should read the odd post by him after all..........

kinnell this as moved on a bit and yet got nowhere

why do people have such negative views about our scene and some of the people in it, someone said the scene is going tits up , all I can say is your going to the wrong places , have been to many different events this year and have had some crackin nights,the w/enders have been brilliant , was at skegvegas last w/end it was great , locally the regular venues I go to ,,attendances are on the up, new venues seem to be flourishing,

highlights of the year so far for me have been the brid w/ender,, riley smith hall and the metrodome not forgetting the brilliant soul cruise on the trent organised by our good friends from the east midlands, personnaly dont think the scene is in decline from my standpoint, maybe others should address their position and take a look round maybe upfront and progressive has run its course as a separate entity and should get back to basics and deliver music that we can all dance and listen to , or has the wannabee dj generation got stuck in a rut and got to keep playing the latest monster awesome sound regardless of merit

kinnell this as moved on a bit and yet got nowhere

why do people have such negative views about our scene and some of the people in it, someone said the scene is going tits up , all I can say is your going to the wrong places , have been to many different events this year and have had some crackin nights,the w/enders have been brilliant , was at skegvegas last w/end it was great , locally the regular venues I go to ,,attendances are on the up, new venues seem to be flourishing,

highlights of the year so far for me have been the brid w/ender,, riley smith hall and the metrodome not forgetting the brilliant soul cruise on the trent organised by our good friends from the east midlands, personnaly dont think the scene is in decline from my standpoint, maybe others should address their position and take a look round maybe upfront and progressive has run its course as a separate entity and should get back to basics and deliver music that we can all dance and listen to , or has the wannabee dj generation got stuck in a rut and got to keep playing the latest monster awesome sound regardless of merit

Bizarrely I think we are making a very similar point but with a very different conclusion and differing logic, good luck to you mate, but whether you like it or not your scene has nothing at all to do with the Northern scene I was on, not a complaint or moan, just a fact. Your last line does show how little you know about things outside your own little world though, try Lifeline if you want busy, you never know you might like it.

What venues did you go to between 81 and 95 that met the criteria you now have, its a genuine question, as I wasn't aware there were so many going on.

Bizarrely I think we are making a very similar point but with a very different conclusion and differing logic, good luck to you mate, but whether you like it or not your scene has nothing at all to do with the Northern scene I was on, not a complaint or moan, just a fact. Your last line does show how little you know about things outside your own little world though, try Lifeline if you want busy, you never know you might like it.

What venues did you go to between 81 and 95 that met the criteria you now have, its a genuine question, as I wasn't aware there were so many going on.

the 80,s were a bit of a lean time for me worked abroad and when returned to uk went to local venues ,tracky club, catholic club and a few pubs and clubs which did motown and soul nights didnt do the niters usual stuff marriage family and so on was fortunate enough to have a good mate who I worked with and went to places where he dj,ed unfortunateley he is no longer with us bub bless him,and thru him heard most of the then contemporary sounds and heard people like dek greenhough play some great sounds,, really started back in the early 90s went to a good number of niters at stoke and after an acrimonious divorce in 94 got seriously back into the scene . am willing to listen to all kinds of our music and am quite open minded but if Im honest a lot of rare and underplayed leaves me cold, modern turns me off and my bet noir is disco . but hey ho some like it , what gets me is , why do people accuse me of being blinkered or stuck in a time warp when along with a good many people just want to go out have a good time ,listen to good music and dance yes classic oldies in the main but appreciate some of the newer , or revived music . I dont wear baggies but dont sneer at those who do' .

the soul scene is only part of my life its not the be all or end all. I do other things , but go out most w/ends to soul do,s and do travel and have many friends in the scene even that dipstick imber

in answer to your remark about the last line of mine , my own little world encompasses a large number of different venues and events,as well as many events in the scootering scene which has its own in house arguments about the music

Edited October 1, 200915 yr by barney

Bizarrely I think we are making a very similar point but with a very different conclusion and differing logic, good luck to you mate, but whether you like it or not your scene has nothing at all to do with the Northern scene I was on, not a complaint or moan, just a fact. Your last line does show how little you know about things outside your own little world though, try Lifeline if you want busy, you never know you might like it.

What venues did you go to between 81 and 95 that met the criteria you now have, its a genuine question, as I wasn't aware there were so many going on.

The Northern scene you were involved in is one in your own head. Super serious, obsessive and not much fun. BARNEY'S summing up is much closer to the genuine life experience of the majority of Northern Soul fans who just love a particular type of music and don't think they are on a crusade to convert the worthless and uneduacted to your lofty pinnacles.

Must be great up there.

The Northern scene you were involved in is one in your own head. Super serious, obsessive and not much fun. BARNEY'S summing up is much closer to the genuine life experience of the majority of Northern Soul fans who just love a particular type of music and don't think they are on a crusade to convert the worthless and uneduacted to your lofty pinnacles.

Must be great up there.

Did you ever go to Stafford mate, or Shotts, or Bradfords Queens Hall,etc. etc. etc. etc. none of them could be described as no-fun but most people there were deadly serious about their music. Sadly its an often wrong assumption that people serious about there music have to be serious on their night outs, I can name you many that prove that theory wrong, but Pete Lawson will do for starters. I really would be interested in where you did actually go, as you just don't seem to get a whole world that existed 79-95, but then again I don't expect you to actually answer anything.

It would be of more interest if you did debate my points rather than now turn it personal, was that not what you scolded me for in your best school teacher manner, at least be consistent, for a change.

Good night now.

Edited October 1, 200915 yr by jocko

Ahh see you have now gone the more conventional Soul Source way of ignoring the points made and throw in a threat instead, I should be in Brixton at do next week, listening to some of that civilisation threatening genre widening music you so abhor, feel free to come and sort me out, although you may have to join an ever growing queue. Alternatively I will carry on the heated debate with you on the roof terrace as it used to be normal to do about music and the scene, but obviously no more.

Firstly then, in the sake of debate, I will apologise for taking the piss out of you, which is what it was not the mass defamation you insinuate above. In my defence, slightly, I assumed you would be used to, as I am, having the piss taken out you, as I am, for being rather opinionated, as I am. I obviously shouldn't carry on debate in same manner as I would round a pub table, as I obviously don't understand peoples deep sensitivity to being butt of humour,

Further in my defence if you really don't see how you talk over people with your capitals all over the place, and that you almost always dismiss others peoples experiences in favour of your own, without qualifying it no matter what you think,which was my kind of serious point among that, then we read differently. Nevertheless it was mean to be humorous as opposed to deeply hurting as you seemed to find it and I suppose this thread has taught me, again, my smiley free humour obviously doesn't translate, or maybe it hits the bone.......

And as this was my first post on this, not sure how you can say it was a response to people not agreeing with me.

None of which changes the fact I made some salient points, in fact you could say cut to the crux of the matter, none of which you are now willing to debate or answer, hmmmmm.

Dogmatic definitely, and perpetually proud of that, shouldn't everyone be when they believe a point is worth arguing, and they believe passionately in that point, and more so when I get fed up with opinions being thrown around as facts and facts been ignored, if you had been on here a bit longer you would know that is my pet hate, although normally I don't bother having a verbal ruck now as we always seem to end up here!

Confrontational, probably, but not in the way you mean, I think its right to always confront mistruths and misrepresentations of peoples opinions that impact on my beliefs, again proud of that, but not personally confrontational, don't believe in it and I am a big sap anyway so never gets me anywhere, there is some inside information for you.

And as for what is wrong with the scene, no, one thing you can't blame me for, what is wrong is people have stopped caring (me included to a certain extent) and given up on what is important, making daft excuses along the way, and therefore f**cking up the scene I felt part of. People like Cliff and others haven't, whether you like it or not, and they care passionately about a good scene, hence why I sometimes feel obliged to come out of my posting retirement and throw my sixpence worth in, most of which has been ignored so far.

So in summary Patto probably says it best, I still stick with if you don't care leave it to people who do, rather than run them down with irrelevant arguments.

On that note I am off to join Cliff in the media files, much nicer and less dangerous over there.

So why did you just not talk in that tone me in the first place. Far nicer and a lot less ruder. Don't worry, there are important things in life and Northern Soul is a passion of mine but there is more to life than worrying yourself into a corner over the dynamics and mechanics of the scene's evolution.

I don't live far from Brixton so I might pop in one night and have a drink with you

now now chorley lets not be disrespectfull every faith has its evangelists

the 80,s were a bit of a lean time for me worked abroad and when returned to uk went to local venues ,tracky club, catholic club and a few pubs and clubs which did motown and soul nights didnt do the niters usual stuff marriage family and so on was fortunate enough to have a good mate who I worked with and went to places where he dj,ed unfortunateley he is no longer with us bub bless him,and thru him heard most of the then contemporary sounds and heard people like dek greenhough play some great sounds,, really started back in the early 90s went to a good number of niters at stoke and after an acrimonious divorce in 94 got seriously back into the scene . am willing to listen to all kinds of our music and am quite open minded but if Im honest a lot of rare and underplayed leaves me cold, modern turns me off and my bet noir is disco . but hey ho some like it , what gets me is , why do people accuse me of being blinkered or stuck in a time warp when along with a good many people just want to go out have a good time ,listen to good music and dance yes classic oldies in the main but appreciate some of the newer , or revived music . I dont wear baggies but dont sneer at those who do' .

the soul scene is only part of my life its not the be all or end all. I do other things , but go out most w/ends to soul do,s and do travel and have many friends in the scene even that dipstick imber

in answer to your remark about the last line of mine , my own little world encompasses a large number of different venues and events,as well as many events in the scootering scene which has its own in house arguments about the music

Cheers for your honest answer mate, most people think I am having a dig but I do think there is a real difference in atttitude if you were around in the 80's and I was genuinely interested if you had some Damascus like change after that.

I think I accuse people of being blinkered musically because most are to be honest,it something very alien to me,, and I am trying to ignore now it now, you have obviously tried and not liked it, which is sort of fair enough. For me its not about 60's v 70's or newer stuff, its about the same records over and over, it doesn't compute with me and its nothing to do with the scene I inhabited from 79-95, hence my question above. However I also realise thats what lots want, and I genuinely do not have a problem with that now, I do get frustrated however when people do not see that is different to how it was for the majority of the scenes time, which is really what this is all about. I think its fu**ed up the sort of scene I was on, and generally its people who went to Wigan for a few years in 74ish now wanting everything to be the same as it was, for most of us that spent a large chunk of our lifes on an evolving scene that makes the current situation frustrating. But feet will tell and the progressive scene, for want of a better term, has enough of its own problems, mostly because of too many soul nights in my opinion, but thats a view from afar and there are least 3 or 4 all nighters now playing very upfront music so its not all bad, maybe just being stuck up here in the Northern wastes talking about it rather than doing it has addled my brain.

So why did you just not talk in that tone me in the first place. Far nicer and a lot less ruder. Don't worry, there are important things in life and Northern Soul is a passion of mine but there is more to life than worrying yourself into a corner over the dynamics and mechanics of the scene's evolution.

I don't live far from Brixton so I might pop in one night and have a drink with you

Because that is how I would genuinely debate it in real life, just forget people do not know me on here as well, and you do shout virtually sometimes so one has to shout louder to be heard. Ironically its a small part of my life now, doesnt stop me caring, and anyone who knows me will say its just an excuse to verbal in an environment where no-one can tell me to shut up!

Right really off now, if this doesn't get me on top posters for today, nothing will.

jesus think im going under

Cheers for your honest answer mate, most people think I am having a dig but I do think there is a real difference in atttitude if you were around in the 80's and I was genuinely interested if you had some Damascus like change after that.

I think I accuse people of being blinkered musically because most are to be honest,it something very alien to me,, and I am trying to ignore now it now, you have obviously tried and not liked it, which is sort of fair enough. For me its not about 60's v 70's or newer stuff, its about the same records over and over, it doesn't compute with me and its nothing to do with the scene I inhabited from 79-95, hence my question above. However I also realise thats what lots want, and I genuinely do not have a problem with that now, I do get frustrated however when people do not see that is different to how it was for the majority of the scenes time, which is really what this is all about. I think its fu**ed up the sort of scene I was on, and generally its people who went to Wigan for a few years in 74ish now wanting everything to be the same as it was, for most of us that spent a large chunk of our lifes on an evolving scene that makes the current situation frustrating. But feet will tell and the progressive scene, for want of a better term, has enough of its own problems, mostly because of too many soul nights in my opinion, but thats a view from afar and there are least 3 or 4 all nighters now playing very upfront music so its not all bad, maybe just being stuck up here in the Northern wastes talking about it rather than doing it has addled my brain.

I think it has actually mate. For one thing, I have never been one of those people who wants to hear the crassest Wigan stompers repeatedly, in fact I hate those type of events. What I also happen to believe is that there are still a huge amount of records from the 60s and 70s which do not ever get playtime, simply because DJ's are either too busy forging ahead and supposedly breaking new frontiers, or because when it comes down to it, they don't want to play cheaper, more easily available records - irrespective of their quality - and thousands of good tunes have been neglected because of those aspects.

If you think somehow, that I am one of the TOP 100 brigade, you have misjudged this argument. I am far from it.

As for your 'sort of fair enough' no, it's fair enough, if he does not like something for god's sake! The type of personality you are describing is bordering on 'zealot.' Chill out and remember all this is suposed to be fun, you know!

Edited October 1, 200915 yr by chorleysoul

I want to agree with Cliff, really I do, but Chorley's angle makes me question Cliff's reasoning.

It comes back to the "scene lover or soul lover" thread, no?

Cliff is saying "I'm a soul lover and I've been to Barcelona where there are kids. I know what's going on, I'm progressive and cutting edge and better than northern soul oldies fans who have hijacked the scene." Which may be true, I dunno? Obviously Cliff is quite excited about a club full of young people dancing to his broad range of soul tunes he spun which perhaps do not receive the same reaction on the UK scene, but I'm not sure one night is solid evidence to base his argument on, certainly not as hard as what Chorley presents.

Cliff seems to be torn between a scene love and a soul love, and he doesn't really know where his heart lies? The shackles of the scene obviously frustrate him and his recent fix in Euroland probably adds to that frustration.

Chorley's stark reality and home truths are harder hitting them Cliff's somewhat weak argument. Hard to pick Chorely up on any points he's making. But perhaps if he went to places like Zurich, Oslo, Malmo, Barcelona, Helsinki and so many other hubs of soul music around the world and gosh horror Dex in Brixton or Soul Rev' Chelmsford or Shoreditch and every Friday and Saturday night at Madam Jo Jos he may be more likely to see where Cliff is coming from? As there are certainly dedicated young soul lovers at these place and it is very liberating to be playing records to a crowd of music lovers without the often ridiculous shackles of the northern scene.

Hi, James,

Things are certainly less complicated: Cliff (or the Ripolles Bros, or Lars Bunheim, etc...) gets invited to BCN because he's got a reputation as a musically broad-minded, risk-taking and, on top of it, cool kind of guy. People here know their music and they want to listen to the Dj's that have impressed them in their visits to UK or European allnighters, promoters like me only try to offer them what they want...and, at this time and age, mostly everybody in the European rare soul scene knows what's cool and what's old hat. Nothing wrong musically with oldies; it's a simple question of making things progressive and exciting, hear new tunes at every nighter and so on...easy, really!

Best!

Edu

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by tykarim

Myoriginal and first post stands and I have heard nothing yet to convinceme that there are a lot of people who can not appreciate Northernsoulmusic properly, you can like Frank Wilson, Helen Shapiro and Tom Jonesand Newies................... Honest.

having read through this thread (heavy going) i feel say that i must say that i agree with this sentence.

as for full circle , we started of hearing sounds that we had never heard before and as far as i'm concerned long may it continue.

only my opinion of course

gogs

now now chorley lets not be disrespectfull every faith has its evangelists

Evangelists. The ones that 'heal' people. They've got a lot of work to do here then!

I don't live far from Brixton so I might pop in one night and have a drink with you

Great, it's a date then....look forward to seeing you there .....Jock and I will be the really serious looking ones sitting in the dark corner plotting in hushed tones the next stage of revolution and education of the masses... ...otherwise we may be on the dance floor to some fresher music, and having a bit of a laugh....

I know which version you'd prefer it to be....

Peace & Love

p.s where were you between '78 and 95..... ....we could have sorted this little tiff out much sooner...

Hi, James,

Things are certainly less complicated: Cliff (or the Ripolles Bros, or Lars Bunheim, etc...) gets invited to BCN because he's got a reputation as a musically broad-minded, risk-taking and, on top of it, cool kind of guy. People here know their music and they want to listen to the Dj's that have impressed them in their visits to UK or European allnighters, promoters like me only try to offer them what they want...and, at this time and age, mostly everybody in the European rare soul scene knows what's cool and what's old hat. Nothing wrong musically with oldies; it's a simple question of making things progressive and exciting, hear new tunes at every nighter and so on...easy, really!

Best!

Edu

Hey Edu,

Hope you're well?

Yes, things are certainly less complicated playing at places like The Boiler (I assume that's where Cliff played?) where there is a young and up for it crowd, open minded, with a proportion of the crowd made up of soul aficionados but the majority who are clubbers looking for a good time and who also enjoy other club events and types of music. We have exactly the same thing going on at The Dex in Brixton at the moment. Which, with all honesty, is the only truly upfront regular event in the UK right now. I sight Cliff's admission of not being able to play what he calls a progressive set at Lifeline to show the stark difference between the two types of events.

You have hit the nail on the head and highlighted what causes frustrations in people like Cliff, and myself, and brings us back to scene lover or soul lover again. The realisation that as a DJ on the UK northern soul scene (I would put places like Soul Revolution and Whole Thing in the Euro Soul Scene rather than UK Northern Soul scene) you have to respect the crowd, realise that if you want to DJ to a full floor you have to understand the limits and nature of the crowd that we have at even the most 'upfront' events in the UK.

I guess it all comes down to how important the UK Northern Scene is to the DJ as to how much he compromises his set. I personally think it is very important, although not vital, as the Euroscene highlights.

Have we gone full circle? Is the scene in the UK musically deficient? Maybe, maybe not. But it could certainly be better musically. Cliff's postings have proved that, as does speaking to many of the DJs on the UK scene who are frustrated with the limitations of the crowd. It's not the lack of imagination amongst the DJs and the records they have that they coudl play, it's the lack of imagination in the crowd.

I have a further observation about musical direction on the UK scene, but I need a cup of coffee...

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by James Trouble

Hey Edu,

Hope you're well?

Yes, things are certainly less complicated playing at places like The Boiler (I assume that's where Cliff played?) where there is a young and up for it crowd, open minded, with a proportion of the crowd made up of soul aficionados but the majority who are clubbers looking for a good time and who also enjoy other club events and types of music.

No, not the Bolier James....Movin' On....and can you stop referring to the majority of the audience as clubbers looking for a good time. Looking for a good time they certainly were , clubbers, definitely not .....Edu's crowd is a the hardcore of Barcelona's if not Spain's soul crowd. They know what they want to hear as Edu has already made clear. To dismiss the crowd on such a disrespectful level is just contemptible and I would have hoped (that by now), this kind of dismissive and snide remark would be beneath you.

See you at Brixton

Cliff

No, not the Bolier James....Movin' On....and can you stop referring to the majority of the audience as clubbers looking for a good time. Looking for a good time they certainly were , clubbers, definitely not .....Edu's crowd is a the hardcore of Barcelona's if not Spain's soul crowd. They know what they want to hear as Edu has already made clear. To dismiss the crowd on such a disrespectful level is just contemptible and I would have hoped (that by now), this kind of dismissive and snide remark would be beneath you.

See you at Brixton

Cliff

Oh dear, what is your malfunction? I said 'assumed it was The Boiler', you've not been there then, have you? If you start to get a few more gigs around Euroland apart from Rimini you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by James Trouble

Any way back to the question have we gone full circle ? Yes !

The tunes may have changed but the malady lingers on

Progressive music on the northern soul scene was easier when there were archetypal northern soul newies overflowing out of DJs boxes. On another thread someone asked who will be the next Keb + Guy? The answer was when someone has a couple of thousand newies that no one knows.

Well, there are a couple of thousand newies (to the northern scene), well maybe a thousand. The problem is they are not archetypal northern soul, not obvious northern soul records like Roy Roberts or The Cavaliers acetate are obvious northern soul records. They all tend to be slightly twisted, not quite stompy enough, a bit too syncopated, or a bit too disco, or a little too 'james brown'. They are challenging records. They are great records, but challenging.

When the progressive DJs who love good music play out at places away from the shackles of the northern scene, to crowds who tend to be a bit more openned minded, not limited by expectations, the sets they play are branching and go places they wouldn't dare go at uk northern soul events.

There are a broad range of newies to be played, but not the focus of easily digestible. If that makes sense?

The only people to blame, really, are the crowd. As Cliff is, although in a clumsy and somewhat offensive way which alienates a lot of the UK scene. How can the northern scene fall in love with records like The Crow or Case Of Thyme or Flaming Emeralds or Night Of The Wolf in the 1970s, but those sorts of records, when played as newies on today's scene are an absolute bitch to get accepted?

And there lies the frustrations, I think. Knowing there are thousands of exciting in your face soul records, that work on the Euro Scene and in places like The Dex in Brixton, but the UK Northern Scene struggles to digest, and it coudl be argued they would have been accepted 30 years ago, when the crowd were younger, more open minded and had a stronger appitite for the unknown.

The Uk scene needs to be broader minded, if a progressive music policy is to work here. Because as Rod (Modersoulsucks) often points out, many of these playlists at so called upfront events, are not actually full of unknowns, and are not really as upfront and progressive as is claimed. Not the DJs fault, it's the crowd and DJs respect for them.

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by James Trouble

Hey Edu,

Hope you're well?

Yes, things are certainly less complicated playing at places like The Boiler (I assume that's where Cliff played?) where there is a young and up for it crowd, open minded, with a proportion of the crowd made up of soul aficionados but the majority who are clubbers looking for a good time and who also enjoy other club events and types of music. We have exactly the same thing going on at The Dex in Brixton at the moment. Which, with all honesty, is the only truly upfront regular event in the UK right now. I sight Cliff's admission of not being able to play what he calls a progressive set at Lifeline to show the stark difference between the two types of events.

You have hit the nail on the head and highlighted what causes frustrations in people like Cliff, and myself, and brings us back to scene lover or soul lover again. The realisation that as a DJ on the UK northern soul scene (I would put places like Soul Revolution and Whole Thing in the Euro Soul Scene rather than UK Northern Soul scene) you have to respect the crowd, realise that if you want to DJ to a full floor you have to understand the limits and nature of the crowd that we have at even the most 'upfront' events in the UK.

I guess it all comes down to how important the UK Northern Scene is to the DJ as to how much he compromises his set. I personally think it is very important, although not vital, as the Euroscene highlights.

Have we gone full circle? Is the scene in the UK musically deficient? Maybe, maybe not. But it could certainly be better musically. Cliff's postings have proved that, as does speaking to many of the DJs on the UK scene who are frustrated with the limitations of the crowd. It's not the lack of imagination amongst the DJs and the records they have that they coudl play, it's the lack of imagination in the crowd.

I have a further observation about musical direction on the UK scene, but I need a cup of coffee...

So do I. You know, I think I've still got quite a lot to say on this, much as it may upset some people.

Oh dear, what is your malfunction? I said 'assumed it was The Boiler', you've not been there then, have you? If you start to get a few more gigs around Euroland apart from Rimini you'll understand where I'm coming from.

No "malfunction" here James....just wanted to correct your assumption and disrepectful remarks....again...

...and FYI my "Euroland" excursions are not limited to Barcelona and Rimini.....and quite frankly I'm not interested in comparing geographies or experiences with you, life's too short....

Meanwhile back to the thread...........have we gone full circle.............I really, really hope so.

I think James' last post sums up the current situation pretty well. The irony of this whole debate seems to me that James, Cliff and Jock are pretty much all in the same camp but their 'forum personalities' are preventing them from agreeing. Chorleysoul's prose tends to be so impenetrable that I can't actually work out what his position might currently be.

To be honest I wonder if I would be that bothered by new discoveries which were in the mould of a 'traditional Northern stomper' anyway, outside of the current Tempests coverup. I'm currently more energised by less linear sounds on the whole: I can't be alone in this.

The other thread running at the moment on which recent or current 'newies' would have been big at Wigan also feeds into this and I've started to wonder if it might not be more pertinent to ask how many Wigan monsters would appeal to me personally if I heard them for the first time next week.

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by garethx

Christ all mighty, I have never seen so many people trying so hard to score points and debating nothing to do with the actual points, particularly, as usual Mr Chorley Soul.

The main point to me, ignoring Imbers ramblings as I always do, Cliff has made is the "scene" is far too one dimensional now, uptempo 60's only and it was never like this back in the day, and in effect this is killing both the attraction of the scene and the quality of music played. Yes he may have got dragged into a few rambling asides, (normally based on Chorley*** telling us how wonderful he is and how many different things he has done, what religion we should follow and his opinions should be treated as fact, despite not actually backing it up with experiences), but that is still the main point for me.

And whatever anyone else wants to say, that is a fact, I was a regular on this scene from 78-95ish, and other than 60's fascism (off which I was a card paying member on and off, but that is a different thread) having a few splurges of power during this period that was how it is, how do I know, I was there. Therefore its fact. I do not think Cliff is advocating playing Bootsy Collins, John Coltrane or Idris Muhammad (pun intended), and he is certainly not advocating Warehouse style music lists (Queen anyone!) but records that fit into this wide banner of Northern Soul, and it is a wide banner based on records actually accepted, again surely there can be no argument to that. It only became so one dimensional mid 90's when the hordes started charging backwards towards the decks, memories of their long gone youth suddenly fresh, and the scene splintered, if not shattered, this is why I still think the Nostalgia scne has had a detrimental effect on my scene, however I wasn't really there then as it was of least interest to me due to the quality going by then and was at home with my music (well also in Houseland but that is also another story)

I am always amazed at when people like Cliff argue for some quality of music they are shouted down as "Soul Police" or similar insults, why, are people offended that people actually care about the music rather than just the scene, is the easy way forward really the only way??

Second point that Chorley is making, in there somewhere, is he really doesn't care anymore, he just wants to go out and get pis**ed and relive the early Hampstead days, good on you mate but its nothing to do with the scene Cliff is talking about so why don't you stick to what you know, because you don't care about the progression within the scene why shouldn't others. Northern has never been just about a good night out, the fact we could have damned good night out with great music and great people was because people cared enough to put progressive stuff on and stick their neck out. The fact you don't care anymore makes your views irrelevant.

Now James, you are just trying to point score against Cliff, still smarting from the time you took a virtual beating off him, please, you should be bigger than that, you are just living down to an awful lot of peoples expectations off you, I thought better of you, I really did. A few specific points,

(a) Cliff didn't say he didn't enjoy others enjoying it, you are putting words in his mouth and trying to score points, I assume you have your short trousers on. Exactly what scene are you talking about when you describe this unit, not Stoke by any chance is it.......

( The scene you ridicule in your response , the young people not knowing anything about anything and moving on, is exactly the one you championed so many times before, the one you said was the future of NS, one that most resembles your Friday night in Chelmsford I believe, and the very one we had our first spat over as I told you were talking bolloks, the one championed by you and your mate from Portishead or whoever that I said wouldn't be here in 5 years (50% right so far, had higher hopes for you, but if your principles go as easy as they seem to be well.....). So why the change now, when some of us are maybe thinking you had something in your original views, are you a Salvadors all night man now, rather than just to get the party started. Do you now champion the traditional route you have fought so hard against up to now. Why would that be James, lets take a guess, Stoke again maybe......

Why don't you go back to doing what you do best rather than just trying to even scores on here lad?

Final questions, as you tax payers could be paying me to type this,

Barney and Casper (now gone interestingly) where did you actually go between 1981 and 1995, I am interested in which venues suited your narrow tastes in these days? Actually Chorley, I would be interested also in where you went then. It would make far easier to understand your points if I understood at what point you changed.

And my final word and summary, there is no scene, it's a lot of ego driven local scenes and in many ways the only one that comes together is the progressive one, although that seems to be even less these days, too many dj's not enough music driven fans that enjoy the scene rather than vice versa, where is the new Keb and Guy to lead the next Soul Revolution (a name James I am assuming you will be changing given your responses above), in many ways the Nostalgia scene is just an irrelevant diversion, although a divisive one I still think, personally I don't care what decade that music comes from as long as its fresh and exciting, or maybe it is all over.........or maybe not, Butch's funky spots, anyone want to discuss?

*** Apologies to all other members with Chorley in their name, used the abbreviated term to save my typing fingers, but maybe to avoid any confusion you should let ChorleySoul be the only one to have this name, sve you embarrasment when people think you are him

Hi Jock,

God you got some time on your hands..Agree with a few points there mate. I'm not sure that things are any different in some ways to what they were years ago..Me and Dean Anderson used to put alldayers on (and someone is going to have to help me on the dates as I can't remember) In Notts & Derby mmm. maybe 87-88 but not sure now. Dj's of the time varied but included Butch, Andy Whitmore, Cliff, Some of the Scottish Crew, and various others which again i can't remember. Then butch was breaking through as a dj playing Diane Lewis, Just Bros, walter & Admirations. Mr Whitmore playing underplayed & Unknown crossover and turing many a head in the process. Everyone playing a combination of 60's 70's and 80's soul with the desire to push the boundaries.

But even back then, the vast majority of people who "cried out" for this type of policy at a venue never came, instead opting for an oldies doo that was nearer to the manchester ritz or whatever bank holiday nighter was on.

Personally we had good times there so no complaints on numbers, but what people say they want and what they actually want are usually 2 different things..

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by hootenannie

I think this is one of the better threads in a while on SS, so thanks Imber for starting a very interesting debate.

To the main contributors, at times I do think all you guys are just arguing whether your fave tean should play 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, as you all appear to want the same result to me?? You just cant agree on the semantics, and really, with passions running as deeply as they obviously do with you guys, then despite some of the murmurings on the thread, Northern Soul will be pretty healthy for a good while yet.

I have the impression that this could have been the whole scene for the Peoples Front of Northern Soul and the Northern Soul People's Front, sketch that the Monty Python team shamefully doctored to have some kind of biblical reference.

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by in town Mikey

DJ's should just play great records!

Everyone's happy.

Easy!

Sean

I think this is one of the better threads in a while on SS, so thanks Imber for starting a very interesting debate.

To the main contributors, at times I do think all you guys are just arguing whether your fave tean should play 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, as you all appear to want the same result to me?? You just cant agree on the semantics, and really, with passions running as deeply as they obviously do with you guys, then despite some of the murmurings on the thread, Northern Soul will be pretty healthy for a good while yet.

I have the impression that this could have been the whole scene for the Peoples Front of Northern Soul and the Northern Soul People's Front, sketch that the Monty Python team shamefully doctored to have some kind of biblical reference.

4-4-2, but bagsy I pick first.....Jocko, Hootenannie you're up front.... ...oops, no pun intended...

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by Wrongcrowd

The irony of this whole debate seems to me that James, Cliff and Jock are pretty much all in the same camp but their 'forum personalities' are preventing them from agreeing. Chorleysoul's prose tends to be so impenetrable that I can't actually work out what his position might currently be.

(Sorry to duplicate a posting but please tell me how this is 'inpenetrable'.....)

I know what you mean, but it's not quite that simple. The word NORTHERN is not a problem if you are clear in your own head as to what that means. That's why I love ADY'S adverts for the 100 CLUB that say 'MICK, BLAH, BLAH and BLAH playing Northern soul records'. I like that because it kind of defiantly says we will keep that label and people will clearly recognise a musical thread amongst the type of records our DJ's play. i.e This is a Northern Soul club where you will hear mid-uptempo 60s and 70s (in the main) American Soul records and not Jazz, Funk, latin, Reggae and a hybrid of every Black dance music concieved since the year dot. This in the so-called name of 'progression'.

The problems actually emerge when - and this is by no means a new thing - certain people decide that they are going to widen and define the musical boundaries of what was originally deemed Northern Soul, to such a degree wherein it starts including music which would never have remotely been considered representative of the genre in the first place. That is what constitutes 'hijacking' of a scene and then subsequently getting annoyed and self righteous if the masses refuse to accept the 'visionaries' tastes and directions.

Somebody has just mentioned the old TEDDY BOYS from the 70s and I recall them well, too. The thing is those guys were fanatical for that original 50s and early 60s sound and that is what they loved. If somebody came along and played them BLACK SABBATH and said 'hey this is still rock'n'roll man, you are not progressive if you don't accept it', they would have told them to fuck off simply because they did not particularly like that style of music. And it has to be said that is fair enough. The same thing has occurred on our scene and it manifests in some quite nasty and cruel insults on this site.

As for the future, whatever scenes emerge, they will be scenes created by the generations of those times and different styles of music and fashions etc. We have to accept that the Northern Soul Scene in the classic sense, has a limited lifespan, in exactly the same way as the original British Rock'n'roll scene, which as somebody has pointed out is now virtually deceased. Then we can just enjoy what is left and stop all this bickering.

This post has been edited by chorleysoul: 30 September 2009 - 03:43 PM

I have nothing more to say, but I am going to pretend I have and I am holding it back till other people say what else they have to say, just so I can post and get back to the top of the poster list, knocking Cliff below me, where he obviously belongs, its scary how quickly power and status becomes addicitive.

"This is a Northern Soul club where you will hear mid-uptempo 60s and 70s (in the main) American Soul records and not Jazz, Funk, latin, Reggae and a hbrid of every Black dance music concieved since the year dot. This in the so-called name of 'progression'."

FFS will you give it a rest......nobody is suggesting the progression encompasses every strand of American black music......that wouldn't be a good thing now would it....maybe that's something we can agree on.....lordy, lordy...

Progression is about playing fresh music that sits within the accepted boundaries, (please nobody start to define boundaries, it's nearly the weekend !!) as opposed to sitting on your laurels, happy with the status quo (and no, I'm not having a pop at you on your diverse musical taste...I couldn't live through that again), and happy with a revivalist music scene...

Right I'm off back to the media threads.....care to join me ??

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by Wrongcrowd

have we gone full circle???????????????. i `ve just read this thread and been round 20 times now. time to close the thread now simon?

dave

FFS will you give it a rest......nobody is suggesting the progression encompasses every strand of American black music......that wouldn't be a good thing now would it....maybe that's something we can agree on.....lordy, lordy...

maybe this is confusing things - in post #87 in this thread you wrote:

[the Northern Soul Scene] has always been about every black music style.."

when it clearly hasn't...

Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul?

Are we failing as a music scene?

Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul? Just been reading the posts about why we need DJ's, the great bun fight at Manifesto's Soul Night and Keb Darge - Scotland's Finest Export since Whiskey.

It seams to me that we have different groups who seam unable, unwilling or even uneasy to hear new and unfamiliar tunes and one of these groups seam to be on the up and up, are these all the people who left the Northernsoul scene when it was pronounced dead after the Casino closed?

I feel like I am about to paint my self into a corner but it is my personal opinion that we have a large group, who are now the majority, who stopped listening to Northernsoul after the casino and they have missed the third wave and a change in music when the likes of Richard Serling, Guy, Keb and Ady plugged away when all but the very faithful remained.

Now I do not intend to take any high ground because I was there, I was at that age, too young for the Casino I was amongst the group who where, as it turns out, to be privileged to hear and absorb the newer sounds. I believe that the legacy of this gives a more open minded approach to Northernsoul and that is why the likes of Middleton and now Maxim's separates some groups like oil and water, this is the only tragedy of Northernsoul.

Robbo once said to me that at the age of ten you have heard every sound you will ever hear and only the frequency will be different, but we were both off our tits at the time so this may well be bollox?

I can honestly say that a stop you in your tracks record is rarer than hens teeth, you more than likely need to hear some thing a few times before it sits well in your mental duke box and I think this is why a certain group don't or wont listen and dance to new stuff, to say its all shit is just a cop out, most of the Northernsoul records sound shite when played cold, try it on a none soulie.

If we are not carful we are going to become a pack of cats and dogs with those clinging to the likes of frank Wilson (nothing wrong with the track but the example stands) and the others who can and do want progressive new sounds.

I saw this kind of thing happen in the early eighties on the scooter scene when the Southerners and the Northerners met to find their particular takes on Mod where as different as chalk n cheese.

I also think that we have our fair share of shady promoters who just want to cram their venues with Soulies wearing baggy pants, no disrespect to baggy pants mind but you get my drift. (I do wear them from time to time)

I also think some of you DJ's need to remember us dancers more and at least bring the tempo mid way when the floor needs it, I will dance to anything new, I have danced to some howlers but I have also danced to music that sounded as if it had come from heaven. Dj's stop blaming the audience and the audience stop blaming the DJ's, just dance and enjoy it1

Lets get back to our Northernsoul roots and stop holding on so desperately to the past, you can listen to the snake on the way home.

I understand the basics of the thread but not sure simon what the middleton,maximes and oil and water comes into it.. R the 2 mentioned venues the saviour of the scene....

maybe this is confusing things - in post #87 in this thread you wrote:

when it clearly hasn't...

Like I said at the start, I want to agree with Cliff, in fact I do agree with many of his beliefs about progression and broad musical church but he talks some real nonsense, so anyone would look foolish to agree with him without arguing against his reasoning and try to get him to at least be honest with himself.

He might have lots of contradictions but I believe his heart is in the right place.

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by James Trouble

Progressive music on the northern soul scene was easier when there were archetypal northern soul newies overflowing out of DJs boxes. On another thread someone asked who will be the next Keb + Guy? The answer was when someone has a couple of thousand newies that no one knows.

Well, there are a couple of thousand newies (to the northern scene), well maybe a thousand. The problem is they are not archetypal northern soul, not obvious northern soul records like Roy Roberts or The Cavaliers acetate are obvious northern soul records. They all tend to be slightly twisted, not quite stompy enough, a bit too syncopated, or a bit too disco, or a little too 'james brown'. They are challenging records. They are great records, but challenging.

When the progressive DJs who love good music play out at places away from the shackles of the northern scene, to crowds who tend to be a bit more openned minded, not limited by expectations, the sets they play are branching and go places they wouldn't dare go at uk northern soul events.

There are a broad range of newies to be played, but not the focus of easily digestible. If that makes sense?

The only people to blame, really, are the crowd. As Cliff is, although in a clumsy and somewhat offensive way which alienates a lot of the UK scene. How can the northern scene fall in love with records like The Crow or Case Of Thyme or Flaming Emeralds or Night Of The Wolf in the 1970s, but those sorts of records, when played as newies on today's scene are an absolute bitch to get accepted?

And there lies the frustrations, I think. Knowing there are thousands of exciting in your face soul records, that work on the Euro Scene and in places like The Dex in Brixton, but the UK Northern Scene struggles to digest, and it coudl be argued they would have been accepted 30 years ago, when the crowd were younger, more open minded and had a stronger appitite for the unknown.

The Uk scene needs to be broader minded, if a progressive music policy is to work here. Because as Rod (Modersoulsucks) often points out, many of these playlists at so called upfront events, are not actually full of unknowns, and are not really as upfront and progressive as is claimed. Not the DJs fault, it's the crowd and DJs respect for them.

flippin eck , steady on

back to topic ,i can only speak about the northern venues iv attended ,obviously. i dont think the "scene" is so much split in two as i think its more fragmented, splintered than it used to be . wether this is good or bad im not sure . theres some fantastic stuff being played up here in many many different types of venues with very broad and wide ranging music policys. im a "born againer johnny come lately" and iv been gobsmacked by the stuff iv heard this last 18 months, better than ever imho. im not a nostalgia head , far from it , never was come to that , but that dosnt mean i cant enjoy the "oldies" venues too .

james what events do you attend up here ? just wondering with your "bitch to get accepted" bit .

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by sarahleen

I think the topic has now disintegrated into people taking pops at each other, time to close it I think.

keep the faith

Hey Edu,

Hope you're well?

Yes, things are certainly less complicated playing at places like The Boiler (I assume that's where Cliff played?) where there is a young and up for it crowd, open minded, with a proportion of the crowd made up of soul aficionados but the majority who are clubbers looking for a good time and who also enjoy other club events and types of music. We have exactly the same thing going on at The Dex in Brixton at the moment. Which, with all honesty, is the only truly upfront regular event in the UK right now. I sight Cliff's admission of not being able to play what he calls a progressive set at Lifeline to show the stark difference between the two types of events.

You have hit the nail on the head and highlighted what causes frustrations in people like Cliff, and myself, and brings us back to scene lover or soul lover again. The realisation that as a DJ on the UK northern soul scene (I would put places like Soul Revolution and Whole Thing in the Euro Soul Scene rather than UK Northern Soul scene) you have to respect the crowd, realise that if you want to DJ to a full floor you have to understand the limits and nature of the crowd that we have at even the most 'upfront' events in the UK.

I guess it all comes down to how important the UK Northern Scene is to the DJ as to how much he compromises his set. I personally think it is very important, although not vital, as the Euroscene highlights.

Have we gone full circle? Is the scene in the UK musically deficient? Maybe, maybe not. But it could certainly be better musically. Cliff's postings have proved that, as does speaking to many of the DJs on the UK scene who are frustrated with the limitations of the crowd. It's not the lack of imagination amongst the DJs and the records they have that they coudl play, it's the lack of imagination in the crowd.

I have a further observation about musical direction on the UK scene, but I need a cup of coffee...

I would also dispute the Euroland clubbers tag James.

Though I can only speak for Spain, I've attended

events in Madrid (Magic Soul), Santiago (Modern Weekender)

and Gijon (Sounds of Unity & Love)

and the vast majority of the crowd are, to use a Spanish word, aficionados, not undiscerning 'wiggling clubbers'.

Apart from The Boiler and Movin' On, there are other events across the country like

Bilbao's Soul4Real (Aitor on here) and Valencia's VNSC nighters (Dani Herranz & Albert Petit on here),

which I've yet to attend.

To use a well worn clich, I'd say they were cutting-edge Rare Soul events.

Not quite sure what 'Euroland' is either. I would have thought Rawtenstall, Levenshulme,

Shoreditch, Stamford and Stotfold were also part of 'Euroland', but I could be wrong of course. ;-)

do you mean me imberboy ? seeing as i was the last one to post . if so ,wheres the "pop" ?

sarahleen not you.

maybe this is confusing things - in post #87 in this thread you wrote:

when it clearly hasn't...

ok....it's a fair cop....

Maybe I should have expanded on my earlier post to say that the Northern scene has always borrowed jazz tunes ....Ramsey Lewis, Jobell, Sergio Mendes, George Benson, Steve Karmen, Frank Foster, Salsoul Orchestra, Silvetti....and delved into funk, Al Foster, East Coast Connection, Crow, Gentlemen & Their Ladies, Skull Snaps, Frankie Crocker, Miami, .....loaned from disco....Stratavarious, Rimshots, Tavares, GQ....and used more 70's and 80's Philly Soul than you can shake a stick at.....there's also been masses of modern soul and plenty of good soulful house tunes that have crossed over (usually 3-5 years after release, but hey...)...there's also been more latin influenced soul played over the past 15 years or more too...

Admittedly I should have specifically ruled out Reggae.....though there's a few of those that sping to mind, anyway...take out hip hop, and whatever Chorley thinks warehouse music is...and I'd say that it's a pretty broad church of black music...might not be to everyone's taste, but there's no denying it's (been) there....

Edited October 2, 200915 yr by Wrongcrowd