looking at usa e bay some seller called partinville found 4 shrine gems in an estate lot, j.d bryant ,sidney hall,the cairos and les chansonettes. lucky feckin bastard

I'm not going to try to quote Chorley, as that doesn't seem to be working, but I'll address his point about the relevance of my stating that there are poor records early on in the Motown and Stax catalogues. These labels were lucky to be successful with one record in that initial run of two dozen or so singles. Without those, in some ways quite unlikely hits we could easily be talking about rare soul labels with a couple dozen of releases each. The hit records gave Motown and Stax breathing space financially and creatively.

To compare a label like Motown with a fifty year history to a miniscule independent like Shrine with a handful of releases is folly. I would agree that there are better records on Motown, but there are many phases of Motown; fifties records, sixties records, seventies recordings and so on. Upon being successful they made records From Sea to Shining Sea in every genre of Rhythm and Blues and beyond. Records made by literally thousands of musicians, hundreds of writers and dozens of artists over decades. The Shrine talent pool was smaller and the geographical and financial scope of the operation miniscule in comparison.

Okeh and Brunswick are irrelevant for comparison too as the former lived as a niche logo within a massive corporation for most of its life and leased in independent productions. One would have hoped that in over fifty years of operation (basically the whole history of recording African American music until 1970) across the spectrum of genres which that entailed, they could have released more good records than a few guys in Washington DC did over a few months.

It is precisely because Shrine failed that it is interesting, in the same way that labels like Tuska continue to intrigue. The reasons for their failure are open to speculation and conjecture, but it is entirely pointless to make comparisons with the powerhouses of soul music on qualitative terms. Banal even.

Like I said in my first post on this thread: "Those who knock Shrine as a label misunderstand its appeal I think."

Edited December 1, 200915 yr by garethx

The thing is with Shrine Records it's not just about the music is it? Sure... every man and his dog knows all there is to know about the label nowadays, they've read Andy and Ady sleevnotes. But when the whole provenence of the labels output and the people who created it started being pieced together then the whole imprint took on another form. You had to travel to hear records like this because very few, if any, of your Mates had it back then. It was rare Soul, Not because the discs were rare but because it was RARE TO HEAR THEM. (I'm always surprised by people interpretations of the term Rare Soul)

Sure, Motown, Brunswick, etc had much larger catalogues and even the next tier of soul labels like Backbeat, Jamie Guyden's stables like Arctic and even I suppose, Mirwood, surpassed Shrine in just output. But Shrine captured a whole collecting scenes imagination. The history of the label and it's connections to other cities and other labels slowly unravalled by the 'record diggers' was great to enjoy.

The Prophets, Eddie Day, Ray Pollard, Shirley Edwards and indeed JD Bryant etc came to symbolise what the collecting part of what people refer to as "The Scene" was really all about...the hunt for records that were extremely hard to find. And the music within the grooves just rammed dancefloors when dancefloor numbers were sparse I can tell you.

I no longer have any Shrine records as I sold a few in order to fund other stuff and have no desire to pay 10,000s of pounds to complete the label but...if they were a hundred quid apiece I'd be after them like a dog after a rabbit. They played a special part in a 60s soul record collectors 'scene' and just because most of them have now become available doesn't detract from the fact that they do hold a special place in collectors memories.

A final point on the actual music on the label.....The intro to Shirley Edwards is in my top 3 intros of all time. It's a veritable fanfare! The only other two that come close are

Stevie Wonder - Uptight

and

Tymes - The Love That Your Looking For

even Sammy's fantastic opening bars of Job Opening just fall short in comparison. (Sorry Sammy lad!)

Music like that stand up against ANY music from ANY genre of ANY era. If Beethoven heard these intros he'd have taken up Painting and Decorating!

As for JL v JDB I'd call it a draw. Both great records that achieve the same status in true soul collectors eyes I'd wager, no matter the difference in price.

Edited December 1, 200915 yr by Dave Moore

Apologies Guys...posted twice

Edited December 1, 200915 yr by Dave Moore

That's a fantastic post Dave.

Like I said in my first post on this thread: "Those who knock Shrine as a label misunderstand its appeal I think."

Damn! I could have just said that instead! Sums it up quite succinctly I reckon. Well done that Man.

IN RESPONSE TO DAVE MOORE:

Not risking a quote now Dave, being that this thread seems to have imploded somehow! Nice post but I think it's fair to point out that I understand the appeal of Shrine and it's relevance within the scene, especially to devoted collectors but everything you and others have said merely underlines Bri's original point rather than contest it. Your comments encapsulate perfectly the appeal of the label in a scene dedicated to hearing rare records at rare opportunities. If somebody had been designing a label attempting to draw the imagination of the Northern Soul scene, they could not have done any better, particularly with the name and the label design which topped off the whole concept of the label to perfection in NS terms. Iconic is not the word!

However, the fact that Motown existed through many eras and in many guises is irrelevant to my point, that it produced far better records. Likewise, the fact that Okeh and Brunswick existed inside a corporate wing of entertainment America. Each label and Company has it's own interesting story, all of which contribute to the overall history. Bri stated that he thought people would not have paid so much attention to the output of Shrine was it freely available in multiple copies and I think that this was a fair comment. It is indeed the whole package and mystique surrounding the label and as you have pointed out, what it represents conceptually to the scene, that elevates these records to such acclaim. However, when it gets to the point of people calling THE PROPHETS 45 'Unsurpassed Black American high art', it is getting a little silly and dismissive of a vast trove of magnificent Soul records, both within and without a 'northern' definition.

I think the sneering dismissal of a great but commonplace record like 'Oh my darling' also summed up this syndrome perfectly. As you have implied, at the end of the day, it is all out there to be celebrated.

IN RESPONSE TO DAVE MOORE:

Not risking a quote now Dave, being that this thread seems to have imploded somehow! Nice post but I think it's fair to point out that I understand the appeal of Shrine and it's relevance within the scene, especially to devoted collectors but everything you and others have said merely underlines Bri's original point rather than contest it. Your comments encapsulate perfectly the appeal of the label in a scene dedicated to hearing rare records at rare opportunities. If somebody had been designing a label attempting to draw the imagination of the Northern Soul scene, they could not have done any better, particularly with the name and the label design which topped off the whole concept of the label to perfection in NS terms. Iconic is not the word!

However, the fact that Motown existed through many eras and in many guises is irrelevant to my point, that it produced far better records. Likewise, the fact that Okeh and Brunswick existed inside a corporate wing of entertainment America. Each label and Company has it's own interesting story, all of which contribute to the overall history. Bri stated that he thought people would not have paid so much attention to the output of Shrine was it freely available in multiple copies and I think that this was a fair comment. It is indeed the whole package and mystique surrounding the label and as you have pointed out, what it represents conceptually to the scene, that elevates these records to such acclaim. However, when it gets to the point of people calling THE PROPHETS 45 'Unsurpassed Black American high art', it is getting a little silly and dismissive of a vast trove of magnificent Soul records, both within and without a 'northern' definition.

I think the sneering dismissal of a great but commonplace record like 'Oh my darling' also summed up this syndrome perfectly. As you have implied, at the end of the day, it is all out there to be celebrated.

did you read my earlier post that the unsurpassed quote was not mine at all hope you noticed that

TO SHELDON:

Yes mate, saw that, lots of quotes on here not mine either!

I won't dismiss or sneer at records simply on account of them being commonplace.

I like to think I appreciate music first and foremost, regardless of its monetary value. Dave's post was so good in that he summed up, far better than I ever could, the idea that in order to hear Shrine records in the first place one had to seek them out and for those who were interested the discovery of another good relase on the logo was thrilling, much as in the same way it would have been to unearth more Mirwood, Minit or Ric-Tic in the scene's formative years. We weren't bombarded by Shrine records on the radio, or forcefed the life stories of the artists by the tabloids. Finding out about these records and the men and women behind them has been a fascinating journey and testament to the maturity and enduring appeal of this scene and the more pioneering and inquisitive people on it. If you can't see that perhaps you are in the wrong place.

What are we really celebrating in this particular thread? The ability of Berry Gordy to sell R&B to white teenage America? The perseverance or luck of collectors in tracking down records on Shrine and labels like it? No. We are celebrating the music itself. I like a lot of the Shrine label's output. Funnily enough I'm not too keen on JD Bryant itself but one thing is for certain, it's a clearly identifiable body of work. No other productions sound like Shrine productions. Like them or loathe them that is inescapable. Many of the vocalists were beyond competent. Some of the singers were exceptional. A lot of the songwriting is great.

I appreciate that Shrine is not to everyone's taste precisely because it has an indelible stamp. If you are one of the dissenters it is your right to be so. But for the sake of interesting forum debate it's sometimes not enough to state "Shrine is crap: Motown made better records."

who or if anybody discovered jdb, and how long ago was it discovered

who or if anybody discovered jdb, and how long ago was it discovered

Kev Roberts wasn't it?

I won't dismiss or sneer at records simply on account of them being commonplace.

I like to think I appreciate music first and foremost, regardless of its monetary value. Dave's post was so good in that he summed up, far better than I ever could, the idea that in order to hear Shrine records in the first place one had to seek them out and for those who were interested the discovery of another good relase on the logo was thrilling, much as in the same way it would have been to unearth more Mirwood, Minit or Ric-Tic in the scene's formative years. We weren't bombarded by Shrine records on the radio, or forcefed the life stories of the artists by the tabloids. Finding out about these records and the men and women behind them has been a fascinating journey and testament to the maturity and enduring appeal of this scene and the more pioneering and inquisitive people on it. If you can't see that perhaps you are in the wrong place.

What are we really celebrating in this particular thread? The ability of Berry Gordy to sell R&B to white teenage America? The perseverance or luck of collectors in tracking down records on Shrine and labels like it? No. We are celebrating the music itself. I like a lot of the Shrine label's output. Funnily enough I'm not too keen on JD Bryant itself but one thing is for certain, it's a clearly identifiable body of work. No other productions sound like Shrine productions. Like them or loathe them that is inescapable. Many of the vocalists were beyond competent. Some of the singers were exceptional. A lot of the songwriting is great.

I appreciate that Shrine is not to everyone's taste precisely because it has an indelible stamp. If you are one of the dissenters it is your right to be so. But for the sake of interesting forum debate it's sometimes not enough to state "Shrine is crap: Motown made better records."

Why is it that everytime somebody states a different point of view on here, people distort what they've said blatantly and then start the cheap insults. Firstly, where the fook have I stated 'Shrine is crap, Motown made better records?'. I have stated that I believe Motown made better records and I do believe that, as I recall Dave did agree with that too. I believe that, in every area that you describe. Songwriting? Do me a favour, there are some good songs but nothing to compare with HDH or Smokey at their finest, let alone Frank Wilson, Mickey Stevenson, Stevie Wonder, Ivy Joe etc, etc. Vocalists? David Ruffin, Marvin Gaye, Sweet James, Kim Weston, Brenda Holloway, Gladys, Smokey? Shrine bears no comparison with that stable and it is you who are demanding that I clarify that. Production wise, again, no comparison and I am not going to waste time outlining why. But calling Shrine 'crap', sorry, not me. You are formulating your perception of a response because it does not dovetail exactly with your own viewpoint. Yes I am aware of the Shrine story and it is fascinating, I too found it to be so, in the same way I find a lot of stories about the record companies fascinating.

As I have just stated, Shrine is a thread in a big story and yes, all credit to the guys who've put all the pieces together. Again, where have I shown any disrespect to them? I have great respect for them actually, so please dont imply otherwise, merely because I disagree with your creative assessment of the records.

Which brings me to your rudeness 'if you can't appreciate that, maybe you are in the wrong place'. Who the hell are you to tell me I am in the wrong place? This is a debate, a debate needs differing perspectives, not a bunch of people all slapping each other on the back and paying lip service to each other. The fact is, you might not have sneered at 'Oh my darling' but somebody did. On what grounds, has not been clarified, be interesting to hear just why?

'Jackie Lee, fook me'. That is the trouble with these debates and that is what I was identifying. The records made by Jackie Lee and Mirwood represent some of the best Northern stuff ever and Shrine does not sit in a creative section somehow elevated legions above Mirwood, that is for sure. It is a worthy label. It has some good to indifferent stuff on it, in my view. It is not a label, which demands the dismissal on creative quality grounds of many, many others. I still agree with Bri's original statement that the sheer rarity of the records holds a certain attraction to a certain type of person and that sometimes manifests in dismissal of more common records which are the creative equal or superior of Shrine output. The remark as regards Jackie Lee on this thread epitomises that.

I know I am most certainly not alone in that perspective, that is for sure.

Why that viewpoint should annoy you, to the extent that you tell people they are in the wrong place is beyond me.

Edited December 1, 200915 yr by chorleysoul

Again you bring up Motown and Mirwood. Irrelevant.

If people like Shrine records and wish to buy them please let them. Essentially telling them to concentrate on something else entirely smacks of the sanctimonious condescension you've bought to practically each and every one of your forum posts.

Again you bring up Motown and Mirwood. Irrelevant.

If people like Shrine records and wish to buy them please let them. Essentially telling them to concentrate on something else entirely smacks of the sanctimonious condescension you've bought to practically each and every one of your forum posts.

Now you are being ridiculous. So it's ok for people to sneer sarcastically at records I like, (that happen to be loved by thousands of others too!) but if I have the audacity to state that I personally think the Shrine releases are a little over rated, then I am being sanctimonious and condescending. So you are allowed a personal opinion and I am not. I am not allowed to make creative comparisions with the output of other American Soul labels, in a discussion about the merits, commerically and artistically, of a label. Not even when I am responding in direct relation to somebody else's point?

Please explain something to me. If the creative output of a company is not judged against the output of other labels/companies producing the same style of product, by which barometers is it judged? Are the people who rate Shrine as the ultimate label free to do so, but I am not free to prefer other companies output?

As for 'ESSENTIALLY' (Nice subtle distortive, that) telling people to concentrate on something else, where the hell did I do that? You told me I could not contribute merely by saying Motown made better records, so when I clarify why I believe that - within the creative boundaries, YOU defined - all you do is insult me again.

Lastly, 'let them buy them'. Come on, where have I said anything that remotely tounches upon the concept of telling people not to buy Shrine Records. The last distortions were bad enough but that really is ludicrous.

'Each and every one of your forum posts'. Oh, you've read'em all then have you?

In my view it is you being sanctimonius, but I do apologise sincerely if I have upeset your sensibilities within such a delicate debate. Bloody hell, we are talking about records for god's sake.

Edited December 2, 200915 yr by chorleysoul

I don't the Shrine label is of no greater 'value' in terms of actual soul music than any other. All the labels from the huge catalogue of RCA to the miniscule output of Marton have an equal place in the Moore household. That's one of the attractions of this music, the way it was created, the era it encapsulates, the places it was created, the social conditions that brought people together in the locations, the way many names intertwine in different cities apppearing on many different logos, all combine to create a body of work that I'm sure in years to come will be recognised in it's place of birth, like other genres of US music are today. (This has started already actually with many of the famous studios and indeed cities beginning to realise the heritage that is on their doorstep.) I don't think Shrine has been 'elevated' to any specific genre leading position but just that it has a special place amongst a certain group of collectors.

The 'importance' of the Shrine label to many collectors of my generation is that it all really 'blossomed' in UK when the collecting scene was a lot smaller than it is today, before the days of instant information highways, Ebay, personal computers etc etc. When you first realised that all these fantastic tracks were all on the same label it fired the imagination. When the connections to Motown's personalities became apparent it led to even further mystique. Sure...you could find fantastic soul records on Motown, Brunswick etc all day long (thank God) but these little blue labelled beauties weren't seen in too many sales boxes back then.

I think comparing the music within the grooves of the label in comparison of other labels is a good talking point but it's only really half the attraction to many. I'm aware that there will be lots of people who will claim "But it should only be about the music!" and that's a fair comment.....for them. But for others the music is only half the thrill, the other half being the people, the records, the labels, the locations, the history and the way much of it all intertwines. Neither group of fans have a monopoly over the real star of the show...the music and it never fails to surprise me that one group don't fully appreciate the other, because without both groups of fans the glass of Northern (Rare) soul would really only be half full in my opinion.

So...Shrine only for 'chinstrokers"? Nah...I don't believe so and any given Sat night when the likes of JDB or Eddie Daye or The Prophets et al are banging out the Peaveys I'd wager that would be backed up by pretty full dancefloors, as would Jackie Lee or any other of the fantastic 45s mentioined in this thread.

Kev Roberts wasn't it?

mid 80's he sold it to Jim Wensiora who sold it to keb who sold it to me

Absolutely. If you aren't experiencing difficulty breathing with how good that is you need slapping with a wet fish.

And that has nothing to do with rarity or who played it when or where ect. If it was 20 pence worth, it would still be the unsurpassed example of black american music as high art that it is IMHO.

Can't see why you're raving about this, always thought it was just a filler track compared to most of the Shrines!

However, when it gets to the point of people calling THE PROPHETS 45 'Unsurpassed Black American high art', it is getting a little silly and dismissive of a vast trove of magnificent Soul records, both within and without a 'northern' definition.

I think the sneering dismissal of a great but commonplace record like 'Oh my darling' also summed up this syndrome perfectly. As you have implied, at the end of the day, it is all out there to be celebrated.

Oh My Darling is a far better record than One Gold Piece.

Oh My Darling is a far better record than One Gold Piece.

Not to my ears.

The production of OMD is better but overall OGP shades it as a 'soul' record, however if we are just talking 'norther soul' then OMD fits the bill better.

Most of the debate on this thread has been pointless as its all about opinion anyway.

Shrine has a mystique beyond it's musical quality; and rarity is a part of that. You will hear more bum notes in the Shrine output than probably the whole Motown catalogue but in part at least that's because they didn't get the one massive smash to fund being more exacting in what they chose to accept as worthy of release. The reasons they couldn't breakthrough with one of their early releases is open to speculation of course.

If you look however at the total output of the label it stands as a catalogue of massive quality in percentage terms. If Motown had delivered a similar percentage of its full catalogue to the same quality we would have had many many more records from Motown to admire.

As far as JDB being worth over £6k not to me but if I'd had the money I'd have probably won the Cairos and still been in profit from the sale of my old copy. I think it was a mistake by the seller to list them all at once.

All in my own opinion of course

Not to my ears.

Most of the debate on this thread has been pointless as its all about opinion anyway.

Um yes, but what are debating forums supposed to be about then?

edit.

Edited December 2, 200915 yr by garethx

Um yes, but what are debating forums supposed to be about then?

Pete, In my view you (and when I say you I mean people in general not you specifically) have to approach these debates in the right spirit. Selective quoting out of context, forgetting who said what, exhagerating other peoples position, paraphrasing for effect etc are to be expected its no different than a political debate where each side can have its say unchallenged (but not unresponded to at some later point). If we all take the huff everytime it happens it stops it being a debating forum at all for those involved and frankly a bore for the casual readers.

I don't the Shrine label is of no greater 'value' in terms of actual soul music than any other. All the labels from the huge catalogue of RCA to the miniscule output of Marton have an equal place in the Moore household. That's one of the attractions of this music, the way it was created, the era it encapsulates, the places it was created, the social conditions that brought people together in the locations, the way many names intertwine in different cities apppearing on many different logos, all combine to create a body of work that I'm sure in years to come will be recognised in it's place of birth, like other genres of US music are today. (This has started already actually with many of the famous studios and indeed cities beginning to realise the heritage that is on their doorstep.) I don't think Shrine has been 'elevated' to any specific genre leading position but just that it has a special place amongst a certain group of collectors.

The 'importance' of the Shrine label to many collectors of my generation is that it all really 'blossomed' in UK when the collecting scene was a lot smaller than it is today, before the days of instant information highways, Ebay, personal computers etc etc. When you first realised that all these fantastic tracks were all on the same label it fired the imagination. When the connections to Motown's personalities became apparent it led to even further mystique. Sure...you could find fantastic soul records on Motown, Brunswick etc all day long (thank God) but these little blue labelled beauties weren't seen in too many sales boxes back then.

I think comparing the music within the grooves of the label in comparison of other labels is a good talking point but it's only really half the attraction to many. I'm aware that there will be lots of people who will claim "But it should only be about the music!" and that's a fair comment.....for them. But for others the music is only half the thrill, the other half being the people, the records, the labels, the locations, the history and the way much of it all intertwines. Neither group of fans have a monopoly over the real star of the show...the music and it never fails to surprise me that one group don't fully appreciate the other, because without both groups of fans the glass of Northern (Rare) soul would really only be half full in my opinion.

So...Shrine only for 'chinstrokers"? Nah...I don't believe so and any given Sat night when the likes of JDB or Eddie Daye or The Prophets et al are banging out the Peaveys I'd wager that would be backed up by pretty full dancefloors, as would Jackie Lee or any other of the fantastic 45s mentioined in this thread.

Well said that man, just about says it all.

Pete, In my view you (and when I say you I mean people in general not you specifically) have to approach these debates in the right spirit. Selective quoting out of context, forgetting who said what, exhagerating other peoples position, paraphrasing for effect etc are to be expected its no different than a political debate where each side can have its say unchallenged (but not unresponded to at some later point). If we all take the huff everytime it happens it stops it being a debating forum at all for those involved and frankly a bore for the casual readers.

What about quoting the wrong person? You say "Pete" to a post made by Richard.

What about quoting the wrong person? You say "Pete" to a post made by Richard.

I thought Chorleysoul was Pete Fowler? Apologies if I was wrong.

I thought Chorleysoul was Pete Fowler? Apologies if I was wrong.

No, I think thats his name on ebay but Chorleysoul is Richard Chorley, plus i thought you were referring to me anyway

Pete, In my view you (and when I say you I mean people in general not you specifically) have to approach these debates in the right spirit. Selective quoting out of context, forgetting who said what, exhagerating other peoples position, paraphrasing for effect etc are to be expected its no different than a political debate where each side can have its say unchallenged (but not unresponded to at some later point). If we all take the huff everytime it happens it stops it being a debating forum at all for those involved and frankly a bore for the casual readers.

I always try to approach them in the right spirit, but when people start mocking records that you like and calling your posts 'sanctimonious and condescending' - simply because you disagree with them, it seems - it's a little difficult to respond with a flower in yer gob.

"Can't see why you're raving about this, always thought it was just a filler track compared to most of the Shrines!"

Because its the best soul record that i've heard yet. I may change my opinion if i hear a better one, (certainly hope i do!!) but that one isn't Oh My Darling, great as that is i hasten to add

ps. someone pass me the fish.....

Edited December 2, 200915 yr by mulf

"Can't see why you're raving about this, always thought it was just a filler track compared to most of the Shrines!"

Because its the best soul record that i've heard yet. I may change my opinion if i hear a better one, (certainly hope i do!!) but that one isn't Oh My Darling!

ps. someone pass me the fish.....

Thats a good enough reason as anything mate, I just can't quite get anything from the track myself but then again, not everyone likes Chapter Five

I do! My favorite British soul record after Steve Aldo!

The winner did put his new JD Bryant up on youtube....

...next to Motley Crue, Pearl Jam, Neil Young and The Doors. Complaining about narrow minded Soulies ? Well, obvioulsy not in this case

The winner did put his new JD Bryant up on youtube....

...next to Motley Crue, Pearl Jam, Neil Young and The Doors. Complaining about narrow minded Soulies ? Well, obvioulsy not in this case

Before anyone complains, this obviously was a joke, its the clip the seller did put up a few days ago

Thats a good enough reason as anything mate, I just can't quite get anything from the track myself but then again, not everyone likes Chapter Five

Nah, definetly prefer Channel 3

Before anyone complains, this obviously was a joke, its the clip the seller did put up a few days ago

i like the idea of some rich bored metal fan just buying stuff because he's rich and ruining it for soul collectors

on the subject of shrine eddie daye and the 4 bars guess who loves you,think i remember searling playing this around 78/79 at wigan ,who was it covered it up as was it frank wilson

I always think that a good measure of a records appeal is the 'goosepimple test'.

When the first few bars of any record plays - if its special to you, you come over all peculiar and get goose pimples and a rush of emotion..

I certainly do with The Prophets, The Cairos and Les Chas... or however its spelt and especially with Shirley Edwards little beauty.

Rare or not, and I respect the collectors view on what also makes them special, I'd travel almost anywhere to hear these masterpieces...

So, anyone playing them out at the moment??