I love how the worst thing you can say to someone on soul source is "your box is full of pressings". It's somehow ten times worse than insulting someone's mother. I can't believe I just read a thread that was like "you have pressings!" "NO YOU have pressings!"

Also, in Chicago, there is a new Cirque du Soleil show called "ovo" with billboards and TV ads. I laugh and think of soul source every time I see it.

Like i said earlier this is all good fun, i don't take it to the 8th degree, i don't feel the players of bootlegs should be put in a bottle and thrown out with the next tide, but one alarming point that gets missed with bootleg records from the 1970's is the god awful sound quality, it's horrendous, flat, dull, the clarity and openness of the sound is stripped bare exposing that foul ugly dull sound like listening whilst submerge in dirty grey bilge water...................

Ps Boba...That Cirque du Soleil looks riveting ...............Do yourself a favour stick to the original records you'll be less likely to have your local law enforcement agency come crashing through your door !!

. I collect "original vinyl" but I realize it's not a life or death thing.

It's not !!! ........bloody hell the missus is right AGAIN!!

The purpose of my post was not to start a debate. People need to stop taking themselves so seriously. I collect "original vinyl" but I realize it's not a life or death thing.

Come on Bob, you might not have intended to start a debate but in my opinion you have attempted to trivalise (unintentionally)something that quite a few people care about and have cared about for the last forty odd years in some cases. I also don't think that you can decide what people choose to take seriously or not. People take it seriously because on the scene it has mattered for a long time. I think you've been naive and not realised the passion behind this and to be honest it's a bit patronising to tell people not to take it seriously.

I'm not going into my reasons (yet again) as to why I think it's important to DJ with original vinyl (no not first issues only) as no one who plays boots ever gets it or understands the reasoning and we'll always be in two camps over this.

I just thought i'd give you a heads up on why some people have responded as they have. One man's 'a bit of a laugh' is another man's 'taking the piss'.

Excellent post Matt Male. And for those that still "don't get it" I get serious about it because I have spent as much of my diosposable income as I could, and endless hours of my life - for all of my adult life buying records and building a collection. Not 5 years, but 35 years +. At this point no one is ever going to convince me that people who turn up with a box of boots and CDs at northern soul venues is what it's about. "The dancers don't care so wtf" is what I always hear, but that doesn't change anything from my perspective. Thanks for listening.....anyway sense of humour returned now.....

BTW the wost insult surely is "your pressings have needle burn".

Edited July 21, 201113 yr by Steve G

BTW the wost insult surely is "your pressings have needle burn".

No, the worst insult is " Oh that's the eighties pressing, the seventies one had a look alike label, so it's much rarer"

I had that one before you. And when I played it I used to think of a different record.

No, the worst insult is " Oh that's the eighties pressing, the seventies one had a look alike label, so it's much rarer"

You're playing Stardust pressings, Mine are original re-presses with Delta matrix numbers on them!

What I was saying was he wouldn't be duty bound to play it, whereas if it hadn't been played, then he may have felt obliged, despite really wanting to play something else. It's all hypothetical Kev, Kenny guested quite a lot round my way at local nights, and you could see people waiting to pay homage to 'Do I love you', but I never thought it was particularly to the record itself, more to the fact that everyone knows this is rare and that Kenny had the original. The question I was posing was did the venue/location limit what Kenny could play, so yes if someone plays it off a boot, even though he might be annoyed, does it open up his options to play something different. I realise there is a very simple answer, but then there's no discussion, and as the test match doesn't start till tomorrow...........

I think the major point here is not the fact it takes the pressure of kenny to play it but if tom dick & harry are around the country playing it on a boot then it looses its wow factor and exclutivity, because no longer do you have fave dj,s you have to follow round the country because you can hear the tunes anywhere........ yet another bit of the scene thats eroded over the years

zzzzzz.....Oh no not the money debate again, we've just had 11 pages of that Ian...... :sleep3: Move along now please

On the point about someone queing up Eddie Parker on a boot, if I was planning to play such a record I'd tell em to play something else as am going to play the original. If they didn't take it off, I'd play the original straight after the boot and announce it as such.....so the public would get to dance to it twice back to back, and the DJ would be "outed" for the undeniable rogue that he is.... Probably preferrable action to taking it off the decks and throwing it into the audience as I hear happens from time to time

Would you then throw your rattle out of the pram and take your ball home with you?

Excellent post Matt Male. And for those that still "don't get it" I get serious about it because I have spent as much of my diosposable income as I could, and endless hours of my life - for all of my adult life buying records and building a collection. Not 5 years, but 35 years +. At this point no one is ever going to convince me that people who turn up with a box of boots and CDs at northern soul venues is what it's about. "The dancers don't care so wtf" is what I always hear, but that doesn't change anything from my perspective. Thanks for listening.....anyway sense of humour returned now.....

BTW the wost insult surely is "your pressings have needle burn".

If the dancers dont give a F*&k the why not go all the way forget Boots or cd's and just stick an ipod onto the sound system(other mp3 players are avaialable) on random play and dont even bother with Dj's save themselves loads of money and you only need a small player as it only needs to hold 500 tunes

i am an original vinyl junkie but as nearly everything i buy is shit no one would bother to boot it anyway

(Saves me getting insulted by someone )

mark

Would you then throw your rattle out of the pram and take your ball home with you?

Actually in reality Pete, I doubt very much that I'd be booked at one of these bootleggy type venues in the first place.

Would you then throw your rattle out of the pram and take your ball home with you?

I would Pete, and all my other toys too

Only after telling the promoter that he'd booked someone who is two bob so that's what, if anything, he should pay them. I'd also tell him he was a clueless f*cking knob (nicely though cos I'm a liberal leftie do-gooding social worker as you know).

Thanks for the record mate. Superb service as usual. Trust its an original

ps. I did once play a cut of something available only on acetate which the guy who owned had cut for me. Someone asked me to play it. Thanks for letting me share with the group, conscience [partially] appeased.

Come on Bob, you might not have intended to start a debate but in my opinion you have attempted to trivalise (unintentionally)something that quite a few people care about and have cared about for the last forty odd years in some cases. I also don't think that you can decide what people choose to take seriously or not. People take it seriously because on the scene it has mattered for a long time. I think you've been naive and not realised the passion behind this and to be honest it's a bit patronising to tell people not to take it seriously.

I'm not going into my reasons (yet again) as to why I think it's important to DJ with original vinyl (no not first issues only) as no one who plays boots ever gets it or understands the reasoning and we'll always be in two camps over this.

I just thought i'd give you a heads up on why some people have responded as they have. One man's 'a bit of a laugh' is another man's 'taking the piss'.

Absolutely spot on Matt

Come on Bob, you might not have intended to start a debate but in my opinion you have attempted to trivalise (unintentionally)something that quite a few people care about and have cared about for the last forty odd years in some cases. I also don't think that you can decide what people choose to take seriously or not. People take it seriously because on the scene it has mattered for a long time. I think you've been naive and not realised the passion behind this and to be honest it's a bit patronising to tell people not to take it seriously.

I'm not going into my reasons (yet again) as to why I think it's important to DJ with original vinyl (no not first issues only) as no one who plays boots ever gets it or understands the reasoning and we'll always be in two camps over this.

I just thought i'd give you a heads up on why some people have responded as they have. One man's 'a bit of a laugh' is another man's 'taking the piss'.

I obviously take collecting originals seriously, I have spent all my money on it, more than I've spent on my condo. But if you can't find the humor in a thread where people are literally going back and forth accusing each other of having/collecting presses, as it's the worst insult in the world, that is sort of sad.

I don't understand either Phil or Steve's attitude at all. Most on here have collected originals and had to make do with a lesser vintage of Chateau Lafite that week.

What I find infantile and ungracious is to make a song and dance about someone else putting on a boot [and even a legal re-issue as some have inferred]instead of moving on and playing something else.

What about those of us who've had to get up at the crack of dinnertime and do bugger all allday to amass a collection of minty originals only for some fly-by-night to get some VG+ copy or lesser condition piece of crap at a much reduced price and then pass it off as a desirable original.

Ridiculous. Yes. But no more than this anal obsession with what other people are doing. Which I share of course or I wouldn't be posting.

ROD

But isn't the Kent release a genuine first UK issue? Or are you saying Uk first issues aren't to be played out?

Haha!!.The old UK debate.Not getting drawn into it again....other than to say... would you be happy paying on the door to hear,for instance,all the Soul City releases that haven't seen a UK release before.IE:Micky Champion,Jades etc....and then Salt and Pepper ,Toni & Showmen,Rudy Love, etc..and the dj pass them off as originals?

I love how the worst thing you can say to someone on soul source is "your box is full of pressings". It's somehow ten times worse than insulting someone's mother. I can't believe I just read a thread that was like "you have pressings!" "NO YOU have pressings!"

Also, in Chicago, there is a new Cirque du Soleil show called "ovo" with billboards and TV ads. I laugh and think of soul source every time I see it.

For what it's worth Bob... i do believe you wrote this with a genuine bemusement and are not one to try and stir up a hornets nest .

I for one will confess that i have played a boot

My name is Wayne and i`m a addict

I thought you were a Cabbie

I thought you were a Cabbie

K'nell Steve....just noticed your signature ....it reads like a role of honour .

I don't understand either Phil or Steve's attitude at all. Most on here have collected originals and had to make do with a lesser vintage of Chateau Lafite that week.

What I find infantile and ungracious is to make a song and dance about someone else putting on a boot [and even a legal re-issue as some have inferred]instead of moving on and playing something else.

What about those of us who've had to get up at the crack of dinnertime and do bugger all allday to amass a collection of minty originals only for some fly-by-night to get some VG+ copy or lesser condition piece of crap at a much reduced price and then pass it off as a desirable original.

Ridiculous. Yes. But no more than this anal obsession with what other people are doing. Which I share of course or I wouldn't be posting.

ROD

I'm afraid you'll need to explain the ungracious bit to me, alongside the perception about being obsessed with what other people are doing. Which bit don't you get? For example, in what way is someone showing even a modicum of good grace by playing a boot of something you've spent years tracking down and/or fortunes on?

Secondly, how on earth does the condition of originals differentiate them in terms of validity insofar as dj-ing is concerned?

If they are original and they play well enough for folk to listen and dance to them without difficulty then what's to differentiate? Better to play a nice mint boot for a fiver and f*ck em eh?

It would appear that you too are obsessive about collecting, as opposed to what people dj with to paying punters. Personally, I'll take whatever I can get / afford condition-wise, purely because I have to. However, originality is absolutely non-negotiable. Entirely different things IMHO.

Oh aye, nearly forgot ... ... is that me you're referring to as infantile? I'll get me dad on yer

Edited July 21, 201113 yr by PhilT

I'm afraid you'll need to explain the ungracious bit to me, alongside the perception about being obsessed with what other people are doing. Which bit don't you get? For example, in what way is someone showing even a modicum of good grace by playing a boot of something you've spent years tracking down and/or fortunes on?

Secondly, how on earth does the condition of originals differentiate them in terms of validity insofar as dj-ing is concerned?

If they are original and they play well enough for folk to listen and dance to them without difficulty then what's to differentiate? Better to play a nice mint boot for a fiver and f*ck em eh?

It would appear that you too are obsessive about collecting, as opposed to what people dj with to paying punters. Personally, I'll take whatever I can get / afford condition-wise, purely because I have to. However, originality is absolutely non-negotiable. Entirely different things IMHO.

Oh aye, nearly forgot ... ... is that me you're referring to as infantile? I'll get me dad on yer

Phil, I'm totally confused about your post, I read it at least 5 times. What if you had written the paragraphs below. How are they not as valid as the paragraphs you wrote? I'm not trying to make any argument, just totally confused about how your argument doesn't contradict every point you are trying to make. Not trying wind you up either, is your post a wind-up?

This is my last post (joking or otherwise) on "originals vs. boots" as I totally can't deal with this

----

I'm afraid you'll need to explain the ungracious bit to me, alongside the perception about being obsessed with what other people are doing. Which bit don't you get? For example, in what way is someone showing even a modicum of good grace by playing a mint copy of something you've spent years tracking down and/or fortunes on?

---

Secondly, how on earth does a bootleg differentiate them in terms of validity insofar as dj-ing is concerned?

If they play well enough for folk to listen and dance to them without difficulty then what's to differentiate?

---

So Bob, at your events in Milwaulkee, Chicago etc. do the DJs play boots? Or is it OVO.....Just curious to know....no agenda....and not being infantile (rod take note )

Phil, I'm totally confused about your post, I read it at least 5 times. What if you had written the paragraphs below. How are they not as valid as the paragraphs you wrote? I'm not trying to make any argument, just totally confused about how your argument doesn't contradict every point you are trying to make. Not trying wind you up either, is your post a wind-up?

This is my last post (joking or otherwise) on "originals vs. boots" as I totally can't deal with this

----

I'm afraid you'll need to explain the ungracious bit to me, alongside the perception about being obsessed with what other people are doing. Which bit don't you get? For example, in what way is someone showing even a modicum of good grace by playing a mint copy of something you've spent years tracking down and/or fortunes on?

---

Secondly, how on earth does a bootleg differentiate them in terms of validity insofar as dj-ing is concerned?

If they play well enough for folk to listen and dance to them without difficulty then what's to differentiate?

---

Bloody hell Bob, I'm confusing myself and you're not helping Last one from me too ... it undoubtedly seems irrational but

The examples you've 'quoted' were responses to Rod's post in which made reference to a lack of grace and his use of grade as a means of differentiation - which I can't get my head around at all from a dj-ing point of view (as opposed to collecting). As I said, playing originals is playing originals ... ... playing boots isn't, erm, playing originals.

- Love it all and have some passion for the right things i.e. the music and not your ego

- Collect what you like, play what you like in your bedroom etc (I certainly do)

- Don't ever play bootlegs to paying punters because it's taking the piss out of those who spent years looking for and boat loads of cash they couldn't really afford on originals (and it's 'ungracious') IMHO;

- Whether you as a dancer or collector are bothered about whether I'm playing originals doesn't really matter to me in the final analysis, I'd much prefer it if it did though and try to frequent venues where people do care

- If you play a boot of an original I've struggled to get hold of then I'm gonna see my arse;

- If I pay to listen to you play and you're playing boots I think that's taking the piss;

In both instances, IMHO of course, you have no respect for the things - call it exclusivity, snobbery, elitism or whatever you like but they have always been key ingredients - that have gone some way towards making this 'scene' different, as opposed to for everyone, run-of- the mill, lowest common denominator, and special in my opinion and experience e.g. how else are you gonna hear what Butch plays? You gotta want it, make the effort and get off your arse, just like you always have and quite right too. How would he react if someone went on before him and played a cut of one of his exclusives? Shrug and say 'never mind', I'll play something else instead'? I think not ... and if the rules are there for the top guys then surely everyone else should try and play by em otherwise we're all hypocrites aren't we?

As I said in an earlier post, if you haven't hitched all over the bloody country to listen to certain djs play certain records as a pimply youth, simply because that was the only way you could hear them (or the real mccoy at least), then that would be hard to get your head around and seem pretty illogical I suspect.

For me, playing bootlegs just goes totally against the grain. Suddenly everyone's a bloody dj running venues that are half empty cos it's more important that they dj than anything else; lots of punters don't seem to give a sh*t as long as they can hear the 'tune' and I'm afraid I just don't get that. Buy a CD and listen to it at home, swap tapes with someone but go out with higher expectations of the people who are charging you to get in and those who think they have earned the right to stand up and play them.

A very well respected mate of mine said to me a few years ago that the day you could hear the Fascinators in Tesco it was all over and f*ck me he was so right.

Trust me, I often wish it didn't mean so much to me all this nonsense Bob.

atb

Phil

Edited July 21, 201113 yr by PhilT

Bloody hell Bob, I'm confusing myself and you're not helping Last one from me too ... it undoubtedly seems irrational but

- Love it all and have some passion for the right things i.e. the music and not your ego

- Collect what you like, play what you like in your bedroom etc (I certainly do)

- Don't ever play bootlegs to paying punters because it's taking the piss out of those who spent years looking for and boat loads of cash they couldn't really afford on originals (and it's 'ungracious') IMHO;

- Whether you as a dancer or collector are bothered about whether I'm playing originals doesn't really matter to me in the final analysis, I'd much prefer it if it did though and try to frequent venues where people do care

- If you play a boot of an original I've struggled to get hold of then I'm gonna see my arse;

- If I pay to listen to you play and you're playing boots I think that's taking the piss;

In both instances, IMHO of course, you have no respect for the things - call it exclusivity, snobbery, elitism or whatever you like but they have always been key ingredients - that have gone some way towards making this 'scene' different, as opposed to for everyone, run-of- the mill, lowest common denominator, and special in my opinion and experience e.g. how else are you gonna hear what Butch plays? You gotta want it, make the effort and get off your arse, just like you always have and quite right too. How would he react if someone went on before him and played a cut of one of his exclusives? Shrug and say 'never mind', I'll play something else instead'? I think not ... and if the rules are there for the top guys then surely everyone else should try and play by em otherwise we're all hypocrites aren't we?

As I said in an earlier post, if you haven't hitched all over the bloody country to listen to certain djs play certain records as a pimply youth, simply because that was the only way you could hear them (or the real mccoy at least), then that would be hard to get your head around and seem pretty illogical I suspect.

For me, playing bootlegs just goes totally against the grain. Suddenly everyone's a bloody dj running venues that are half empty cos it's more important that they dj than anything else; lots of punters don't seem to give a sh*t as long as they can hear the 'tune' and I'm afraid I just don't get that. Buy a CD and listen to it at home, swap tapes with someone but go out with higher expectations of the people who are charging you to get in and those who think they have earned the right to stand up and play them.

A very well respected mate of mine said to me a few years ago that the day you could hear the Fascinators in Tesco it was all over and f*ck me he was so right.

Trust me, I often wish it didn't mean so much to me all this nonsense Bob.

atb

Phil

hi phil, as usual very well put,

my worst experience of piss taking, was a well known father figure pioneering d,j many moons ago playing a set which consisted of wheel classics played entirely on mini disc, ffs, some of the tunes were available for a fiver on original format!!!!, by the way you can buy fascinators in tesco nowadays.......ladies wear them for fancy do's...lol. atb jim.

I thought they were originals because they had the big hole in the middle.

Also I did ask Rob smith in his shop if he had any 45s on a label called C/U, kept seeing loads of sounds on that label in Echoes.

I thought they were originals because they had the big hole in the middle.

You've got to be careful though cos I've bought some big holers and they were reggae !

Posted A minute ago

polyvelts, on , said:

I thought they were originals because they had the big hole in the middle.

You've got to be careful though cos I've bought some big holers and they were reggae !

I'm loving this quoting yourself malarky !!

Jesus! I hate getting into long-winded arguments unless in person.

Phil, you may have missed my final comment that complaining about VG+ originals is ridiculous. As Boba pointed out Im only taking your argument and increasing the level of elitism. Yes Im obsessed [prefer] with nice condition copies but not to the extent that I'd make a fuss or draw attention to someone else's record collection, which I think you and Steve are doing if you're both suggesting that regarding the playing of boots you'd either report the offending dj, leave and refuse to play in the club again or whatever stand you'd both wish to take.

Im sorry I do think it's ungracious in that it's making a mountain out of a molehill and causing grief where there is no need. Unless you have some kinda suspicion that the boot dj was trying to sabotage your spot which is highly unlikely. It's more likely he's a cheap warm-up act to Phil T because the promotor cannot really afford your £3.45 appearance fee [well that's what Geoff Buckley told me was the average last time I played a few].

Snobbery and elitism have played no part in my appreciation of the music and I don't consider it has led in any way to the longevity of the scene. There has always been bootlegs and Emidiscs [Richard S for one in his early days before the Anderson tie-up]and people just got on with it. Mr M's is an iconic location nowadays but many of us didn't venture in. Not because a lot of boots were played in there but because the newies were in the main room. The longevity is to do with the urge to hear more and fresh stuff and more importantly those who still seek it out.

And if we're talking guys collecting and playing OVO there are hundreds probably who are no longer around from back then and yet there are guys with their boots and re-issues who still go every week and are probably waiting for the next in-demand 45 to be made available cheap.

ROD

I thought you were a Cabbie

That`s my day job,at night i trawl the internet for rare soul on ovo

I love how the worst thing you can say to someone on soul source is "your box is full of pressings". It's somehow ten times worse than insulting someone's mother. I can't believe I just read a thread that was like "you have pressings!" "NO YOU have pressings!"

Also, in Chicago, there is a new Cirque du Soleil show called "ovo" with billboards and TV ads. I laugh and think of soul source every time I see it.

You know whats funny is people go on about the legendary casino-there were tons of boots played

DJ

You know whats funny is people go on about the legendary casino-there were tons of boots played

DJ

I was going to say that too, whoever said originals have mattered since the beginning (or summat) is a tad wrong. When a record was discovered it was cut (booted?) onto emidisc or vinyl and given to a selected few DJs to hammer. Once a tune had gained popularity, certain folk started selling vinyl boots out of the back of their vans which is why there are loads around. Funny how they always had them ready when a tune went big isn't it?

Originals have only mattered since expensive records became affordable to more people and people started bootlegging again because people seem stupid enough to pay 15 quid for a bit of vinyl with poor sound quality produced yesterday for about 3 quid.

People bought vinyl boots in the 70's because vinyl was the medium of time and many people have a collection of them that they bought in their youth, if they want to play them out - so what? Purchasing boots of the stardust variety when better mediums are available is something I have never understood, there are better mediums available now. Playing vinyl bootlegs in this day and age at a venue is barking - they are heavy and you have to lug massive decks etc about to enable them to be played. Maybe people who organise this sort of thing perhaps want it to be nostalgic i.e. be similar to the events of their youth? To play the collection they have from their youth? Fair enough.

The argument now is that people have spent loads of money on an original so you can't play the boot. What they are saying is that they respect the amount of money paid rather than the tune itself. This respect of the large expense of money is what leads to rich chaps buying records at any price just to become a DJ and be admired which leads to inflated record prices. I've always said you can get any record you want if you have enough money (and probably time) but that isn't collecting really.

I like original 45's for what they are - historical artefacts - but if I want a tune to listen to I have it on CD or mp3 for my ipod, I've sold a lot of my records but still do occasionally play the small box full I kept.

If I ever went to a rare/northern/insert current term soul night again I would prefer to go to somewhere that plays interesting tunes on OVO because I admire the fact that people have collected these historical artefacts and are still willing to play them to people who are interested. They don't necessarily have to be expensive records but when there are only a few of something, and some of the best tunes seem to be rare, then original vinyl can be expensive. But I'd rather not hear a bunch of dreary tunes just because they are shit rare and hideously expensive, or a set of tunes that are brilliant but everyone knows are all hideously expensive, which were obtained by just pulling out a wad of cash and paying whatever is necessary to get a box of records that the buyer thinks everyone will admire them for having.

Does that all make sense? Who cares.

Sorry I forgot the confession: I used to play my white label 70's pressing of Brenda Holloway - Reconsider whenever I could cos it was brilliant and I'd never get a proper one as it is unreleased. I've sold it now and it is one of the few records I miss, I've got the tune on CD and my ipod though.

Sorry, I forgot the worst insult too! Here's a couple:

"Have you got any Northern mate?" - to be said to a DJ halfway through his set.

"Call yourself a DJ?" - to be said to a DJ after he politely tells you he hasn't got the request you have asked for in the 200 box of records he brought with him/her. Add descriptive expletive to end if desired and possibly another expletive before "DJ" for good measure.

"The issue/demo is rarer/better sound quality/different take/half the price/twice the price" - can be said to anyone playing any record wherever, just delete the alternative that is not relevant. Richard Searling did that to me on air at Jazz FM.

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by paultp

I was going to say that too, whoever said originals have mattered since the beginning (or summat) is a tad wrong. When a record was discovered it was cut (booted?) onto emidisc or vinyl and given to a selected few DJs to hammer. Once a tune had gained popularity, certain folk started selling vinyl boots out of the back of their vans which is why there are loads around. Funny how they always had them ready when a tune went big isn't it?

Originals have only mattered since expensive records became affordable to more people and people started bootlegging again because people seem stupid enough to pay 15 quid for a bit of vinyl with poor sound quality produced yesterday for about 3 quid.

People bought vinyl boots in the 70's because vinyl was the medium of time and many people have a collection of them that they bought in their youth, if they want to play them out - so what? Purchasing boots of the stardust variety when better mediums are available is something I have never understood, there are better mediums available now. Playing vinyl bootlegs in this day and age at a venue is barking - they are heavy and you have to lug massive decks etc about to enable them to be played. Maybe people who organise this sort of thing perhaps want it to be nostalgic i.e. be similar to the events of their youth? To play the collection they have from their youth? Fair enough.

The argument now is that people have spent loads of money on an original so you can't play the boot. What they are saying is that they respect the amount of money paid rather than the tune itself. This respect of the large expense of money is what leads to rich chaps buying records at any price just to become a DJ and be admired which leads to inflated record prices. I've always said you can get any record you want if you have enough money (and probably time) but that isn't collecting really.

I like original 45's for what they are - historical artefacts - but if I want a tune to listen to I have it on CD or mp3 for my ipod, I've sold a lot of my records but still do occasionally play the small box full I kept.

If I ever went to a rare/northern/insert current term soul night again I would prefer to go to somewhere that plays interesting tunes on OVO because I admire the fact that people have collected these historical artefacts and are still willing to play them to people who are interested. They don't necessarily have to be expensive records but when there are only a few of something, and some of the best tunes seem to be rare, then original vinyl can be expensive. But I'd rather not hear a bunch of dreary tunes just because they are shit rare and hideously expensive, or a set of tunes that are brilliant but everyone knows are all hideously expensive, which were obtained by just pulling out a wad of cash and paying whatever is necessary to get a box of records that the buyer thinks everyone will admire them for having.

Does that all make sense? Who cares.

Sorry I forgot the confession: I used to play my white label 70's pressing of Brenda Holloway - Reconsider whenever I could cos it was brilliant and I'd never get a proper one as it is unreleased. I've sold it now and it is one of the few records I miss, I've got the tune on CD and my ipod though.

Sorry, I forgot the worst insult too! Here's a couple:

"Have you got any Northern mate?" - to be said to a DJ halfway through his set.

"Call yourself a DJ?" - to be said to a DJ after he politely tells you he hasn't got the request you have asked for in the 200 box of records he brought with him/her. Add descriptive expletive to end if desired and possibly another expletive before "DJ" for good measure.

"The issue/demo is rarer/better sound quality/different take/half the price/twice the price" - can be said to anyone playing any record wherever, just delete the alternative that is not relevant. Richard Searling did that to me on air at Jazz FM.

well said a reasonable arguement if ever there was one

cheers b

I was going to say that too, whoever said originals have mattered since the beginning (or summat) is a tad wrong. When a record was discovered it was cut (booted?) onto emidisc or vinyl and given to a selected few DJs to hammer. Once a tune had gained popularity, certain folk started selling vinyl boots out of the back of their vans which is why there are loads around. Funny how they always had them ready when a tune went big isn't it?

Originals have only mattered since expensive records became affordable to more people and people started bootlegging again because people seem stupid enough to pay 15 quid for a bit of vinyl with poor sound quality produced yesterday for about 3 quid.

People bought vinyl boots in the 70's because vinyl was the medium of time and many people have a collection of them that they bought in their youth, if they want to play them out - so what? Purchasing boots of the stardust variety when better mediums are available is something I have never understood, there are better mediums available now. Playing vinyl bootlegs in this day and age at a venue is barking - they are heavy and you have to lug massive decks etc about to enable them to be played. Maybe people who organise this sort of thing perhaps want it to be nostalgic i.e. be similar to the events of their youth? To play the collection they have from their youth? Fair enough.

The argument now is that people have spent loads of money on an original so you can't play the boot. What they are saying is that they respect the amount of money paid rather than the tune itself. This respect of the large expense of money is what leads to rich chaps buying records at any price just to become a DJ and be admired which leads to inflated record prices. I've always said you can get any record you want if you have enough money (and probably time) but that isn't collecting really.

I like original 45's for what they are - historical artefacts - but if I want a tune to listen to I have it on CD or mp3 for my ipod, I've sold a lot of my records but still do occasionally play the small box full I kept.

If I ever went to a rare/northern/insert current term soul night again I would prefer to go to somewhere that plays interesting tunes on OVO because I admire the fact that people have collected these historical artefacts and are still willing to play them to people who are interested. They don't necessarily have to be expensive records but when there are only a few of something, and some of the best tunes seem to be rare, then original vinyl can be expensive. But I'd rather not hear a bunch of dreary tunes just because they are shit rare and hideously expensive, or a set of tunes that are brilliant but everyone knows are all hideously expensive, which were obtained by just pulling out a wad of cash and paying whatever is necessary to get a box of records that the buyer thinks everyone will admire them for having.

Does that all make sense? Who cares.

Sorry I forgot the confession: I used to play my white label 70's pressing of Brenda Holloway - Reconsider whenever I could cos it was brilliant and I'd never get a proper one as it is unreleased. I've sold it now and it is one of the few records I miss, I've got the tune on CD and my ipod though.

Wait a minute...Bootlegs are illicit, unofficial and Illegal, aren't they ( and were) made purely for an individual(s) profit, nothing more and nothing less, , so beside a vinyl purist slant, there is also a moral ethic surely ??? To be honest i could care less because the venues that i attend play music that hasn't had the mass bootlegging that say affected the Northern Soul scene, ( plus the rare 70's /Crossover scene is in my experience totally original playing only dj's...may be the odd one..who knows?, but nothing like what seems prolific on the Northern scene) so i'm not going to defend an element of the soul scene i don't often attend, but i know a lot of the guys who do play and collect the real deal (within the Northern scene) and i'm strictly with them ...Original Vinyl records..God Bless Em'

Brett.

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by Brett F

Wait a minute...Bootlegs are illicit, unofficial and Illegal, aren't they ( and were) made purely for an individual(s) profit, nothing more and nothing less, , so beside a vinyl purist slant, there is also a moral ethic surely ??? To be honest i could care less because the venues that i attend play music that hasn't had the mass bootlegging that say affected the Northern Soul scene, ( plus the rare 70's /Crossover scene is in my experience totally original playing only dj's...may be the odd one..who knows?, but nothing like what seems prolific on the Northern scene) so i'm not going to defend an element of the soul scene i don't often attend, but i know a lot of the guys who do play and collect the real deal (within the Northern scene) and i'm strictly with them ...Original Vinyl records..God Bless Em'

Brett.

Agreed, and taking the said original record, putting a completely different label on it, giving the track a completely different title and hoodwinking anybody that might be interested that it's a completely different artist isn't for the benefit of the individual, often the 'real' artist would rather keep their identity a secret,

Wait a minute...Bootlegs are illicit, unofficial and Illegal, aren't they ( and were) made purely for an individual(s) profit, nothing more and nothing less, , so beside a vinyl purist slant, there is also a moral ethic surely ??? To be honest i could care less because the venues that i attend play music that hasn't had the mass bootlegging that say affected the Northern Soul scene, ( plus the rare 70's /Crossover scene is in my experience totally original playing only dj's...may be the odd one..who knows?, but nothing like what seems prolific on the Northern scene) so i'm not going to defend an element of the soul scene i don't often attend, but i know a lot of the guys who do play and collect the real deal (within the Northern scene) and i'm strictly with them ...Original Vinyl records..God Bless Em'

Brett.

Not wishing to sound like a politician, but the bit you've highlighted has been taken out of context. I wasn't generally defending the playing of bootlegs, I thought the whole of my post made that clear. I was just saying that if people want to play them out then that isn't a terrible thing, I was suggesting that perhaps it was a nostalgia thing they were looking for. I meant that people can do what they want in the main,

In the 70's for many people the only way to get to hear a tune away from a venue was to buy bootlegs. At the time many people didn't know the distinction between bootlegs and originals, and when they did they didn't really care. My missus bought hers from adverts at the back of Blues and Soul - she was just buying tunes that she had heard (probably off bootlegs!) at a local club and wanted to listen to at home. I continually refuse to sell them for her as I feel they are part of her personal history.

Of course they were made for personal gain but these tunes were not available anywhere else to most people, going to the states in the 70's was a bit of an expensive luxury. Bootleggers are always cynical but I was just trying to illustrate that there was a difference between buying vinyl bootlegs in the 70's and buying vinyl bootlegs today.

Morals and Northern Soul - mmmmmmm .... perhaps a different topic.

Its a matter of degrees really and the motives of the person involved.

Sneaking a boot onto the decks trying to pass it off as an original is not the same thing as organising a soul night and openly playing your 70's boot collection (or 90's stardust for that matter).

But this argument is always clouded by the arguments such as; its OK to play a boot if you have the original (which may be at home); its OK to play a carver of a one off if the owner of the one-off has cut it for you; you can play a carver cut from your own acetate, etc etc

Making tapes was once said to be killing music but people sold them openly at venues right up to the 90's - bootlegging if we're being strict.

Making CDs from your own records and passing them round - bootlegging

Have you ever cut an mp3 and sent it to anyone? Modern day bootlegging.

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by paultp

Agreed, and taking the said original record, putting a completely different label on it, giving the track a completely different title and hoodwinking anybody that might be interested that it's a completely different artist isn't for the benefit of the individual, often the 'real' artist would rather keep their identity a secret,

I haven't actively took part in the forum for some time because i grew bored and was busy, but i gotta' say i love this row, i like your point, it's made me think, but for me, the individual doing the c\up is playing the original, no illegality there, but once again waters become muddy, the whole scene has been driven by that very exclusivity, the collecting and playing of rare records gave the soul scene an edge other music genres could only dream of.....I'm with the cover up guys................You tell me why i shouldn't be.....i warn you i am heavily armed as i type.......

I haven't actively took part in the forum for some time because i grew bored and was busy, but i gotta' say i love this row, i like your point, it's made me think, but for me, the individual doing the c\up is playing the original, no illegality there, but once again waters become muddy, the whole scene has been driven by that very exclusivity, the collecting and playing of rare records gave the soul scene an edge other music genres could only dream of.....I'm with the cover up guys................You tell me why i shouldn't be.....i warn you i am heavily armed as i type.......

Why would I tell you what you shouldn't do? Personally I like to play original records when I'm invited to play a few, what anyone else plays is up to them, I don't really give a flying one, lifes to short, it's a night out,

Thanks for the warning though

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by Pete60

Not wishing to sound like a politician, but the bit you've highlighted has been taken out of context. I wasn't generally defending the playing of bootlegs, I thought the whole of my post made that clear. I was just saying that if people want to play them out then that isn't a terrible thing, I was suggesting that perhaps it was a nostalgia thing they were looking for. I meant that people can do what they want in the main,

In the 70's for many people the only way to get to hear a tune away from a venue was to buy bootlegs. At the time many people didn't know the distinction between bootlegs and originals, and when they did they didn't really care. My missus bought hers from adverts at the back of Blues and Soul - she was just buying tunes that she had heard (probably off bootlegs!) at a local club and wanted to listen to at home. I continually refuse to sell them for her as I feel they are part of her personal history.

Of course they were made for personal gain but these tunes were not available anywhere else to most people, going to the states in the 70's was a bit of an expensive luxury. Bootleggers are always cynical but I was just trying to illustrate that there was a difference between buying vinyl bootlegs in the 70's and buying vinyl bootlegs today.

Morals and Northern Soul - mmmmmmm .... perhaps a different topic.

Its a matter of degrees really and the motives of the person involved.

Sneaking a boot onto the decks trying to pass it off as an original is not the same thing as organising a soul night and openly playing your 70's boot collection (or 90's stardust for that matter).

But this argument is always clouded by the arguments such as; its OK to play a boot if you have the original (which may be at home); its OK to play a carver of a one off if the owner of the one-off has cut it for you; you can play a carver cut from your own acetate, etc etc

Making tapes was once said to be killing music but people sold them openly at venues right up to the 90's - bootlegging if we're being strict.

Making CDs from your own records and passing them round - bootlegging

Have you ever cut an mp3 and sent it to anyone? Modern day bootlegging.

An excellent reply, yes i wasn't having a go at kids buying boots back in the 70's ( if you read my earlier posts, i myself bought the odd boot as a callow 16 year old) The real issue is in the modern era, once again i repeat an earlier post i made, why don't the small venues that play boots, openly advertise it.......what have they to lose....Is it the credibiltiy of their night ?

Why would I tell you what you shouldn't do? Personally I like to play original records when I'm invited to play a few, what anyone else plays is up to them, I don't really give a flying one, lifes to short, it's a night out,

Thanks for the warning though

Well that's a rather dull reply, i wanted debate.............

Well that's a rather dull reply, i wanted debate.............

That's me, dull as dishwater and hates to disagree,

Hope you find a suitable opponent to engage in your riveting Friday evening choice of entertainment,

Me, I gotta wash my hair

That's me, dull as dishwater and hates to disagree,

Hope you find a suitable opponent to engage in your riveting Friday evening choice of entertainment,

Me, I gotta wash my hair

Ok, well i'm in tonight but out Sat and Sunday (ps..I'm on Solar Radio Sunday and i'm not playing anything but original records...., see below) and the wife and daughter have gone to her mothers....so i'm out on a limb......Enjoy your night.

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by Brett F

An excellent reply, yes i wasn't having a go at kids buying boots back in the 70's ( if you read my earlier posts, i myself bought the odd boot as a callow 16 year old) The real issue is in the modern era, once again i repeat an earlier post i made, why don't the small venues that play boots, openly advertise it.......what have they to lose....Is it the credibiltiy of their night ?

I don't know but I'll have a guess:

Neither the organisers nor the DJ's nor the regular attendees care what format is being played they just want to have a night out, so they don't see a need to specify format. I think it is unlikely that anyone craving for OVO would stumble into such a place as the flyer usually gives an indication of what to expect.

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by paultp

The real issue is in the modern era, once again i repeat an earlier post i made, why don't the small venues that play boots, openly advertise it.......what have they to lose....Is it the credibiltiy of their night ?

because they, and 99% of their punters, don't give a toss, most small venue nights are just for the social anyway - take Goodyears in Wolverhampton, playing the same records now as they were 8 years ago, still gets packed and it's not for the quality of the music - it's the only opportunity people get to see their old mates and listen to some memories. People worried about OVO wouldn't attend venues like that in the first place.

* sorry Paul, wrote that without reading you'd said exactly the same thing!

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by Pete S

I don't know but I'll have a guess:

Neither the organisers nor the DJ's nor the regular attendees care what format is being played they just want to have a night out, so they don't see a need to specify format. I think it is unlikely that anyone craving for OVO would stumble into such a place as the flyer usually gives an indication of what to expect.

Perhaps, but i believe all wish to be under one umbrella, you know kindred spirits, i'm a DJ etc....I feel it's a faux way to play within the rare soul scene ( whatever genre you fall into), the thing i always enjoyed was the rare record aspect, i loved the obscurities and the playing of them, it did and still does give the scene an edge over virtually all other musical genres, yes it's elitist, but hell i love that i loathe the prosaic..

because they, and 99% of their punters, don't give a toss, most small venue nights are just for the social anyway - take Goodyears in Wolverhampton, playing the same records now as they were 8 years ago, still gets packed and it's not for the quality of the music - it's the only opportunity people get to see their old mates and listen to some memories. People worried about OVO wouldn't attend venues like that in the first place.

* sorry Paul, wrote that without reading you'd said exactly the same thing!

Thats a fair and valid point, but let's be honest there are places where people like to hide behind the dreaded bootleg and aren't shall we say being quite honest........................

Thats a fair and valid point, but let's be honest there are places where people like to hide behind the dreaded bootleg and aren't shall we say being quite honest........................

I'm not saying they play boots at Goodyears, just that a lot of venues now are simply grown up versions of the youth club and the music is secondary to the pint / chat / dance aspect...

I'm not saying they play boots at Goodyears, just that a lot of venues now are simply grown up versions of the youth club and the music is secondary to the pint / chat / dance aspect...

Pete not trying to catch you out here, but the whole thread is about it being an insult to say you play boots............... You used a venue in Wolverhampton, purely as an example.....then you said...'i'm not saying they play boots'......................This comes back to my earlier post, that do venues who play boots without admitting it fear they will lose crediblitiy................. You have almost defended that venue from that foul ugly slur of being associated with the playing of bootlegs...........................

Edited July 22, 201113 yr by Brett F

I am sure boots were played at WIgan and we all know about the emi's and tailor made soussan soul fox stuff as well. However back then the scene was very different with big sounds breaking nationwide in a week and most of the punters were still in school etc. Not like today at all, where it's just fellas (and a frew gals) with a box of treasured records. In any event Wigan Casino played some awful stuff. And it is a shopping centre now, and so on a number of levels it is not the benchmark I choose to use for comparrison purposes - far from it in fact. I'd rather look at clubs like Stafford and the 100 Club, and what's been going on since Wigan closed it's doors. I doubt boots have graced the decks at these places, except for possibly Ady or Dave's cowboy boots . The clubs round these parts do not play boots either, except the mod ones, and that's really a different scene - a parallal universe in fact (our paths don't cross). I don't believe boots are played at places like Va Va Voom, SITC, Groovesville, Lifeline,Caliente, Bamburg, Stoke, or come to mention it Bob A's US venues either.

Certainly as a collector who has worked hard at this sport for a long time, I will stick to my views on this thanks, whether others agree or not.

Perhaps I am more aligned to the rare soul scene, rather than the northern scene, and maybe that's the difference. However - Rod you can rest assured I wouldn't really use some finishing DJ's bootleg of Eddie Parker as a frisbee to behead some unsuspecting dancefloor junky as "Odd Job" did in James Bond with the metal lined bowler hat! So you can pack in the "infantile" references cheers.

If I accept what several of you are telling me, that in certain parts of the country, boots are "de rigeur" and the scene is really "just a bunch of mates playing the music they like", then fine, it is what it is, but that's not the scene I am on. And if that is the case can't see why these folk don't just use CD's or better still a laptop or i-phone. (except they are really trying to play "pretend DJ with rare vinyl records" - a bit like a fake wannabee Elvis) . If these folk used a laptop, or their i-phone they could carry with them many more titles to keep the public happy, than they can ever fit into their box. I went to a wedding in Exeter and the DJ had 15,000 titles available to him on his laptop - no more "No sorry Fred I left it at home", so the opportunities are endless - makes more sense to me than lugging around a heavy box of popular pressings. Carrying these boots around with you seems a bit like going to see a tribute band rather than the real thing.... so, come on boot boys, shed your inhibitions and at least be honest, and play the music you love on something other than "fake" copy vinyl if it really doesn't matter to you.

Right off to dig out some OV.......Wright that is, not vinyl

Brett - Hi!