Ok, Im not talking about know copies here, that discussion I'm sure has been done to death, rather what I'm interested in is what caused there to be only 19 (or whatever) copies of 'Naughty boy in the first place. For example the shrine or TK warehouse fires, a record being withdrawn for licensing of other reasons, there must be other reasons, for me this is far more interesting than how many have sold on popsike.

Assuming most minimum runs for small label issues are around 1000, but please correct me if this assumption is wrong, how come certain tunes are only around in handfuls and others often on the same labels, are availible in abundance?

Ok, Im not talking about know copies here, that discussion I'm sure has been done to death, rather what I'm interested in is what caused there to be only 19 (or whatever) copies of 'Naughty boy in the first place. For example the shrine or TK warehouse fires, a record being withdrawn for licensing of other reasons, there must be other reasons, for me this is far more interesting than how many have sold on popsike.

Assuming most minimum runs for small label issues are around 1000, but please correct me if this assumption is wrong, how come certain tunes are only around in handfuls and others often on the same labels, are availible in abundance?

It's usually impossible to know what happened. I think most often the story is that the stock was not distributed and just thrown out. It definitely is true though that many ultra-rare were pressed 1000 copies or more though, that doesn't mean there's 1000 copies out there now. It's always strange to read sellers text when they say "only 50 copies pressed!" or something, like they just made it up.

we do know some things like the Deadbeats were pressed up in a quantity of 300. But agree - records were a here and now thing - yesterdays hit was too often thrown away if it wasn't going to be a hit.

we do know some things like the Deadbeats were pressed up in a quantity of 300. But agree - records were a here and now thing - yesterdays hit was too often thrown away if it wasn't going to be a hit.

wouldn't it be really good to have in one place an alpha list of KNOWN pressed quantities so all can refer to?

like

Daedbeats x 300

Roy Roberts (Sugar) x 100

etc

etc

Go on - it would be a great tool :-)

wouldn't it be really good to have in one place an alpha list of KNOWN pressed quantities so all can refer to?

like

Daedbeats x 300

Roy Roberts (Sugar) x 100

etc

etc

Go on - it would be a great tool :-)

The only way to really know this is to find order slips from pressing plants. When my friend was working on a comp of material that was pressed at Boddie in Ohio, he found 1000 and even 5000 order forms for records that were ultra-rare or even no-known-copies records (things nobody had ever heard of before).

its well documented why frank wilson...soul and darrell banks uk london are so rare, but i agree it would be good to hear why others remain so rare, for instance, the shrine and tk fires...that was news to me.....any more stories?

its well documented why frank wilson...soul and darrell banks uk london are so rare, but i agree it would be good to hear why others remain so rare, for instance, the shrine and tk fires...that was news to me.....any more stories?

Sorry cant remember where I heard about them, maybe the fires were just heresay, can anyone confirm.

The Shrine stock was lost in a fire in 1968 and is well documented. Google it and you'll get some info.

I'm sure I read somewhere that Bill Moss had burnt all of the unsold Capsoul stuff, so you'd expect that to be rarer than it is.

Tony

My brother in law was in a rock band in the 80s and they had a hundred singles pressed of one of thier recordings most got sold to fans and family but one has just sold on E_Bay in greece for £120 .

I think there is a subtle difference between scarcity and rarety, once a scarce record is in demand it becomes rare .

Sort of makes sense to me

Hi there some were ltd runs but also damaged or warped copies for instance Gwen Owens or some of the Jades on pontcello so a run of 1000 after a reject "chuck out " could have left 20 or 30 in circulation and as the small artist or label would have had ltd funds it probably couldn't afford a rerun so became rare.I know of a punk band from the seventy's called the pokers they had "Whip me , beat me bite me when you eat me " made on a ltd run of 500 they sold a few at one gig and then the dad of one of them smashed them up as he found it disstastful so probably 20 circulated and 3 stayed within the band.Regards Simon.

My brother in law was in a rock band in the 80s and they had a hundred singles pressed of one of thier recordings most got sold to fans and family but one has just sold on E_Bay in greece for £120 .

I think there is a subtle difference between scarcity and rarety, once a scarce record is in demand it becomes rare .

Sort of makes sense to me

I hear people saying things like "this one is getting rare" but I just don't get it. I agree that there's a difference between scarcity and desirability - and therefore demand/price but it doesn't make an item more rare. The only way that could happen is if copies were destroyed.

Maybe we need a new word to mean 'copies in circulation'...?

I hear people saying things like "this one is getting rare"

Its a euphamism for - I just sat on and broke my other copy.

or - Butch is playing it so all the dealers have sold out.

Some records are rarely available because they seem to sit in people's collections or are such great records that no one wants to get rid of them. Show Some Sign - JD Ledbetter and Victoria Williams isn't rare, and it's only around £100, but you try and get hold of one compared to other £100 records. People love it and don't want to part with it.

Some records have misspelt titles making them more desirable.(withdrawn and re-pressed).Some picked up on from local to national releases.Short runs would have been a cost thing,funded by band members.When,after a couple of years they still had 100 or so on their hands,probably trashed them out of embarrassment.Or so they thought!!

One story is of a singer who's brothers girlfriend smashed all but 3 known copies of his single. All 3 are in the States.

I hear people saying things like "this one is getting rare" but I just don't get it. I agree that there's a difference between scarcity and desirability - and therefore demand/price but it doesn't make an item more rare. The only way that could happen is if copies were destroyed.

Maybe we need a new word to mean 'copies in circulation'...?

Rarely seen for sale?

It's a paradox. If an original record pressing is rare (and it was not re released on another label) does that mean it was a flop? In other words, the label and producers, artists etc, would have expected remuneration for their labours back in the studio and never really got it, yet....the big money that changes hands these days for those rare 45's is nothing like the 40 cents retail price of say 1965, should the record have taken off and more pressings commissioned. And if it was a local pressing of say a few hundred and not picked up by a big label, you can see the trend, which fuels the rare record scene these days.

From a rather selfish perspective, may I say those involved in the original production of this music do not get their dues either? The label name, song title and artist get the lions share, the writers next, then the poor old producer, he who saw the light, gets sidestepped a little. The publisher who as a rule does loads of work, get an occasional mention! Ironically, the majority of these tunes don't earn a thing as illegal broadcasts and pod casts have totally obliterated any worth these songs could have generated in this day and age. Unless of course, you are lucky to have a publisher who can get them placed in commercials, movies TV programmes etc, for another revenue stream. Interesting thread. I am thinking of withdrawing my 2 45's and leaving the couple of hundred out there on their own. I may keep the digital for sale, but clearly the vinyl has been a waste of money, looking back which is a shame. I know when I pressed up, I reckoned I would have sold 50% and broke even. That is not the case, and I will not be pressing vinyl again unless that changes. They never had a choice back in 65, but I do. The old business model of buying music is just about buried. It's the 'cloud' that will hopefully give remuneration to artists, writers and the like. I look forward to my 0.016cent per stream on Last.FM (multiply by 100,000!). What's good about this model is that if you do not press up 45's or CD;s there will never be a 'broadcast spec' version for sale or played on the radio - just a shitey mp3!' "It's the future - you'll get used to it!"

There is still a market for vinyl, albeit limted. And even today that produces rarities.

For my Soul Intention label I have no more than 500 copies of each release pressed up. And of the latest release a number of them were badly warped, so unsaleable. This makes the release in general rarer than intended. Also, limited run promo copies (I get a maximum of 20 done per release) are by default "rare".

I used to be involved in another label many years back, and the unsold stock was taking up space a few years ago - so I binned them

I'm sure this behaviour by other label owners has contributed greatly to the rarity of some records. If you have something sitting around that didn't sell, it can easily perceived as worthless and therefore easy to get rid of.

Phil

Phil - your promo copies - are they on different coloured labels, or something unique about them? I wanted promo copy printed on the label, but it was another set of label designs and labels etc. Or did you rubber stamp them, which is what I nearly did.

I meant to say that the 2nd worst thing anybody can do is have my records stored in a distribution facility that is torched by rioting kids who don't even know what vinyl is. The 1st thing is to offer me peanuts for the rest of the records I have and claim you are doing me a favour, like a recent email I received from a distributer. A favour to me, is liking the song, enjoying the song, buying the song, if vinyl preferably from a shop, not me (as it is aggro), and supported the song legally. Phil is right - is they are sitting around they are almost worthless, from a label perspective!

Edited September 5, 201113 yr by Carl Dixon

I would have thought that pressing 500 records specifically for the Northern Soul scene is a bit of a risk nowadays. I'm sure 200 would sell out, but 500?

I would have thought that pressing 500 records specifically for the Northern Soul scene is a bit of a risk nowadays. I'm sure 200 would sell out, but 500?

I would have thought that pressing 500 records specifically for the Northern Soul scene is a bit of a risk nowadays. I'm sure 200 would sell out, but 500?

If you replace "northern soul scene" with "soul scene",i guess that could have been written in the 60's by some small labels Pete.

some great pionts made, glad I started this thread, for once!

we do know some things like the Deadbeats were pressed up in a quantity of 300. But agree - records were a here and now thing - yesterdays hit was too often thrown away if it wasn't going to be a hit.

thats 300 to many.......pile of pop shite

geeselad - indeed.

Yes, I reckon 500 is too much.

However, I do not pit pitch my stuff as Northern Soul per se. Yes, I tag Motown, Tamla, Detroit, Northern, soul, Philly etc, but the words Northern Soul are something exclusive to DJ's, venues and dancers only, not writers or producers etc. Yes, I went to Detroit with the intention of my songs being recorded in a Detroit style and I did it. It was not hard, the musicians were all from Detroit except Babbit who flew in from Memphis. Dennis Coffey said had we cut the songs in 1983 they would have sounded the same with that arrangement and musicianship. I specifically write songs with a 60's/70's Detroit/Philly flavour and hope that one day somebody may pick up them and want to perform them traditionally - so they get recognition. I would hate the notion that my songs/or releases are collectables because they failed and worse, being mp3'd all over the place and on pod casts free of charge, when I have royalties to pay back in the States. I thought my vinyl would have showed conviction to collectors, that I was prepared to take a risk, can come up with decent melodies, am trying to be as traditional as possible with my limited expertise etc. Just listen to these tracks and you will hear the influences. Of course 'There I go' is Philly, with some MFSB guys on board, but recorded in 2008, so it does not necessarily have the 1975 dna structure or orchestra. That is expensive...and as proved, nobody wants it otherwise sales after airplay of this material would have sold better!

'

Double up', 'Walk away the Winner', and 'A little of the big stuff' are what I am working on right now.....plus two others! Are they rare: yes - not even complete yet!

https://soundcloud.co...ext%5D=55motown

Edited September 5, 201113 yr by Carl Dixon

Phil - your promo copies - are they on different coloured labels, or something unique about them? I wanted promo copy printed on the label, but it was another set of label designs and labels etc. Or did you rubber stamp them, which is what I nearly did.

Hi Carl,

I've done both specially printed labels and a rubber stamp for different releases.

I prefer the "proper" ones though.

Costs £99 for an extra set of labels.

Phil

Thanks Phil. That makes sense. It cost me $85 to get mine changed to get the correct spelling of David J. Van De Pitte, rather than the many incarnations of his name being spelt wrong over the years. He passed away sadly during the organisation of the pressing and something told me to check his name .I do not think even Motown ever spelt it right. It was the least I could do after meeting him and he gave me his HIS cv in the studio! Unbelievable....and that is where I found his correct name spelling on the hand written sheet music he did for the session.

In the early 80,s when I regularly attended venues with Carl Fortnum and Gary Spencer,60% of their tunes were covered up.My question was always the same how do you know what to cover up and how do you know its rare.Never could get my head round how they knew these tune were thin on the ground.

Some of the records stayed covered for several years.With all the knowledge available to collectors why was more not known ???

Some records are rarely available because they seem to sit in people's collections or are such great records that no one wants to get rid of them. Show Some Sign - JD Ledbetter and Victoria Williams isn't rare, and it's only around £100, but you try and get hold of one compared to other £100 records. People love it and don't want to part with it.

I totally agree with this and was thinking about this the other day. There seems to be a huge category of "300 pound" records that are all somehow worth 300 pounds. Some will never sell for much while there are others that never come up and that I would gladly pay 300 pounds for. I don't know if I'm talking about rarity or demand at this point though.

anyone else ever heard of the TK fire guys?

thats 300 to many.......pile of pop shite

Now Peggy, you know I'd never buy a record like this.....but it's typical of so many local presses. Designed to be sold out the boot of the car at gigs etc. When they didn't sell and the group had a new one, then they'd probably junk the old stock. Or they'd have a hissy fit and split up vowing never to speak to each other again. I will say though the Deadbeats are better looking fellas than The Ravins : But only just.

A few other reasons:

Release pulled - contractual dispute - happens a lot in a biz dominated by "lawyers"

Artist / promotor / dies / goes bust / throws a wobbler

Artist and producer fall out

Promos don't get plays, release withdrawn

Promo man / engineer nabs the stock (Billy Woods)

Fire / Hurricane / Flood/ Tornado

Someone else offers to put a local record out, but then doesn't.

Can't find a distributor / limited run for promotional purposes

Release gets lost due to a hit on the same label, so A&R men don't plug the prior release

Yup a world of rare soul. Thank Gawd for that.

Edited September 5, 201113 yr by Steve G

Dunno if mentioned but vinyl was also recycled. So it is feasible that any unsold stock at distributers returned and recycled for new presses/releases.

Dunno if mentioned but vinyl was also recycled. So it is feasible that any unsold stock at distributers returned and recycled for new presses/releases.

apparently this happened to the Tip Top label stock.

I think someone mentioned this already but one thing I've heard several times for pressing runs that were scrapped was that there was some manufacturing defect -- e.g. it skipped when played.

Dunno if mentioned but vinyl was also recycled. So it is feasible that any unsold stock at distributers returned and recycled for new presses/releases.

Trax in chicago were notorious for this in the 8ts

Sorry cant remember where I heard about them, maybe the fires were just heresay, can anyone confirm.

little bit here on from wikipedia

Shrine Records was an American soul and R&B record label based in Washington, D.C. The label was cofounded in 1964 by the label's primary songwriter Eddie Singleton along with wife, Raynoma Gordy Singleton (who also previously cofounded the legendary Motown Records label with ex-husband, Berry Gordy). Its headquarters was a townhouse located at 3 Thomas Circle NW within Washington, D.C.

From 1964 to 1967, Shrine released a total of twenty vinyl 45 singles comprising forty different tracks. However, none of the Shrine singles were significant hits, and the label ceased operations in 1967. Shrine's stock of unsold records was destroyed in a warehouse fire in the 1968 Martin Luther King riots. As a result, very few Shrine records remain today and are highly sought-after by collectors.

In addition to the released material, a small catalog of tracks from various artists was recorded by Shrine but never issued. Fortunately, much of this previously unreleased material has been rediscovered and released on various modern-era labels such as Horace's Records, Kent Records, and Ace Records.

Notable artists involved with Shrine included Ray Pollard (who later released material on Decca), Linda Tate, Eddie Daye & The Four Bars, and The Cavaliers.

The Shrine Records logo was a line drawing of an eternal flame.

[edit]

Dunno if mentioned but vinyl was also recycled. So it is feasible that any unsold stock at distributers returned and recycled for new presses/releases.

Yes, and this really caught on after the fuel crisis in 75 which pushed production costs for records up

Yes, and this really caught on after the fuel crisis in 75 which pushed production costs for records up

I read somewhere that in the 70's most vinyl, not only was it made thinner but 30% of each disc was regrind or recycled vinyl. This is one reason for noisy vinyl discs even though they look mint.

I read somewhere that in the 70's most vinyl, not only was it made thinner but 30% of each disc was regrind or recycled vinyl. This is one reason for noisy vinyl discs even though they look mint.

wasn't this something to do with the petrol shortage?

I read somewhere that in the 70's most vinyl, not only was it made thinner but 30% of each disc was regrind or recycled vinyl. This is one reason for noisy vinyl discs even though they look mint.

wasn't this something to do with the petrol shortage?

wasn't this something to do with the petrol shortage?

oh and then i read Steve's post. ho hum

wouldn't it be really good to have in one place an alpha list of KNOWN pressed quantities so all can refer to?

like

Daedbeats x 300

Roy Roberts (Sugar) x 100

etc

etc

Go on - it would be a great tool :-)

Would be on hell of a job to take on and all, mate!

I totally agree with this and was thinking about this the other day. There seems to be a huge category of "300 pound" records that are all somehow worth 300 pounds. Some will never sell for much while there are others that never come up and that I would gladly pay 300 pounds for. I don't know if I'm talking about rarity or demand at this point though.

Well, say something like PAUL SMITH 'I'll run', lovely record great flip, quality all round in musical terms, anybody got an idea of how many there was made of that and what is the real factor of it's supposed value, the rarity or that musical quality or is it a combination - but if that is the case, why are there so many other records that seem to be in the same bracket on rarity value alone, ie not particularly inspiring musically - for instance if it was known that there were 10,000 copies of them they'd be £5 records?

Edited September 6, 201113 yr by rich chorley

Would be on hell of a job to take on and all, mate!

Well, say something like PAUL SMITH 'I'll run', lovely record great flip, quality all round in musical terms, anybody got an idea of how many there was made of that and what is the real factor of it's supposed value, the rarity or that musical quality or is it a combination - but if that is the case, why are there so many other records that seem to be in the same bracket on rarity value alone, ie not particularly inspiring musically - for instance if it was known that there were 10,000 copies of them they'd be £5 records?

It's not neccesarily how many were made, it's how many survived. So a record pressed up in a quantity of 300 could actually be more common than a record pressed up in a quanitity of 10,000, if the latter didn't get very far and most copies were trashed for example.

It's not neccesarily how many were made, it's how many survived. So a record pressed up in a quantity of 300 could actually be more common than a record pressed up in a quanitity of 10,000, if the latter didn't get very far and most copies were trashed for example.

I read somewhere that in the 70's most vinyl, not only was it made thinner but 30% of each disc was regrind or recycled vinyl. This is one reason for noisy vinyl discs even though they look mint.

some of the Trax pressing that rock jones issued were more certainly more than 30% recycled and some are awful esp considering there 12's, they often have a grey look rather than black!