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Pete S

Book Prices?

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Des and Gordon's posts also raises the question of how many authors of these price guides are guilty of deliberately under-valuing for their own gain.

Edited by Gene-R

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Guest The Record Box

At the end of the day it's a buyers market!!

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Unfotunately more and more dealers in Canada have got their hands on Martin's books. I ploughed through a couple of 1000 45's at the Toronto show that always used to turn up the odd thing of interest. I was alarmed to see Northern Soul written on the sleeve and book price listed. When he stated he was surprised I did not find anything I casaully let him know he was never going to get those prices and as a dealer it was surely better to sell a 45 than have it sit in your box forever?

 

The only other people at the show with a passing interest in Northern was Martin himself and Henry- wonder if they pay book price? :thumbsup:

Edited by newer

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I do think that many lister's on here initially put high prices on records on the hope someone is desperate for a record and then quite quickly list it slightly discounted if it doesn't immediately sell.

Records are a luxury and in these times luxuries aren't a priority. The more realistic the price and quicker they will sell.

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Guest Soulfood33

I sold a record recently for more than the book price - Skip Jackson - was in the last "guide" for £40 :g:

 

Des Parker

Which guide? The one I got says price £150. anyone got one for £40 I'll buy it...pm me  lee

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Certainly in the 3rd edition, not sure about the 4th, 5th edition says £150 as you say, again don't have the latest - what's it in there for? Person I sold it to, showed me the price in one of the guides, and was angling for a reduction, based on the "written text" stating £40. I sold it for £100, which I though was a good price for a clean copy!!! I certainly paid more than £40 for it

 

Des

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Guest The Record Box

These so called price guides are purely based on what records have sold for in the past. As far as I know the prices are driven in the high by DJs.

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Guest The Record Box

For example Clara Hardy "I Dream Of You"  old book price 1500 and now? Northern Soul is like stocks and shares!!

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I think the point is that people are not using these as "guides" but as the some sort of gospel, whichever edition they throw in your face, when out and about!!

 

Des

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Guest The Record Box

Let's get back to the good old days when waiting eagerly for the weekly list to come via the post and then rushing to the telephone box to reserve it!!

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I think the point is that people are not using these as "guides" but as the some sort of gospel, whichever edition they throw in your face, when out and about!!

 

Des

 

One day, when they realise they've got hundreds of unsold records, they'll come to their senses!

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Guest The Record Box

Or six foot under with their collection!!

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Guest The Record Box

Sleeping under the letter box waiting to catch the list from Soul Bowl!!

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I'm waiting for john powneys latest list to arrive sometime this week via postman :)

 

back to the original subject though , how many people that use the book price guides actually take off the 20 % for vat  ? plus the extra amount that the "top" dealers charge that are more expensive than others ? plus any money for lower condition as guide prices are mint minus?

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I'm waiting for john powneys latest list to arrive sometime this week via postman :)

 

back to the original subject though , how many people that use the book price guides actually take off the 20 % for vat  ? plus the extra amount that the "top" dealers charge that are more expensive than others ? plus any money for lower condition as guide prices are mint minus?

 

If you have to subtract 20% for vat, why do they add it on in the first place in the guide?  In fact do they?

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If you have to subtract 20% for vat, why do they add it on in the first place in the guide?  In fact do they?

John has said before his guide prices are for a mint copy including vat.

I wonder how many of those who use the guide to price their records actually use the actual price stated but not pay vat?

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I wonder how many of those who use the guide to price their records actually use the actual price stated but not pay vat?

 

I wonder how many earn over £50,000 or whatever it is to qualify to pay vat?

Edited by Pete S

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Guest The Record Box

VAT  very adorable tune?

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So what you are saying Chalky is that all prices in the book should have 20% taken off  them?

Then why not start at the 20% off figure, I don't get it.  

 

well that would be the right thing to do to be honest !! ...also, as so many records are vg++ or ex dealers shall deduct  another 10-15 % off !!!! btw a mint record for me is unplayed !!!)

 

...so if someone says ... a real bargain that should also be another 15 % off...  :hatsoff2:

 

the reality is different though :elvis:

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There are all sorts of problems with the guides.

 

Firstly, I think the prices are only valid if there is reasonable turnover in the record. If, for example, the record as not been sold by the dealer for say 4 or 5 years. Then what is the record now worth? As many records become more difficult to find their prices are likely to be less realistically estimated in the guide.

 

Secondly, lower priced records are often hard to sell even at below book price - so what does the book price really represent? I think it represents the base level ithe record can be purchased for (often in a job lot of records) with a mark up to cover the record dealers costs including VAT. So say 15 to 20 pounds which appears to be the going rate these days.

 

I think on this basis over half the prices in the guides are either wrong or misleading.

 

As a collector, I think it comes down to this. What am I willing to pay for this record? If it is worth $100 to me then I will pay up to $100 for it. It is worth $10 to me and nobody wants to sell it, or if it sells at auction above that price. Well .......there are no shortage of fine soul records out there. 

 

Having said all that - maybe ebay is the best guide to the range of values that a record is worth? It certainly reflects what folks are willing to pay for a record.

Ebay is a live market place and a price guide is not!

Edited by soulmanau

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So what you are saying Chalky is that all prices in the book should have 20% taken off  them?

Then why not start at the 20% off figure, I don't get it.  

 

I'm not so sure than JM would pay VAT at the point of sale. Maybe it's only on his commission of 20% which is also never factored into sales by people using a guide.

 

Remove

 

20% commission 

20% VAT

10/15% per drop in each level of condition

 

and there you have it. Most offers I put in nowadays are around this level. Much to some sellers chagrin I have to say.  "But I paid more than that for it!".....well Matey..."you paid too much!"   Of course this strategy only works for people who are in the collecting game for the duration and long haul, as we can sit back and wait until that right copy at the right price comes along. If you're a returnee DJ whose desperate to play what that guy in the next town's playing then...get your plastic out. As more than a few have discovered. God Bless 'em   :lol:  :wink:

 

There's obviously a number of different categories of record buyers nowadays. Some feed the dealer market and use that environment to source their 45s and some don't. The dynamics of collecting have completely changed with the advent of the internet and then the guides. Just the way it is.  The ONE factor that people continually choose to ignore, maybe because they don't want to identify themselves with it, is the market of the Saturday Night working men's club "DJs". They drive the market, they pay these prices, they are at the heart of the escalating prices.  Buying a 45 at just below "book price" and assuming you got a bargain is nuts. Then after thrashing your once nice styrene copies to death for a year for 50 of your Mates at your venue and then adding 25% on to it whilst attempting to sell them on is even nuttier!  :lol:  

 

I've no doubt that as the dynamics and demographics change once again that all those classic 45s I decided to gamble with and sold over the past decade or so at twenty/thirty times what I paid for them will undoubtedly find their way home at some stage at prices similar to what I originally paid. That's my theory anyway. :hatsoff2:

 

Regards,

 

Dave  

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Having said all that - maybe ebay is the best guide to the range of values that a record is worth? It certainly reflects what folks are will to pay for a record.

Ebay is a live market place and a price guide is not!

 

That's a very good point.

 

But even Ebay now with it's modus operandi now off kilter due to the hike in US postage and the growing number of dissatisfied buyers is looking more and more precarious from a buyers perspective. I know a number of collectors who have seen their purchasing drop down to a trickle now.

 

Best.

 

Dave

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I'm not so sure than JM would pay VAT at the point of sale. Maybe it's only on his commission of 20% which is also never factored into sales by people using a guide.

 

Remove

 

20% commission 

20% VAT

10/15% per drop in each level of condition

 

and there you have it. Most offers I put in nowadays are around this level. Much to some sellers chagrin I have to say.  "But I paid more than that for it!".....well Matey..."you paid too much!"   Of course this strategy only works for people who are in the collecting game for the duration and long haul, as we can sit back and wait until that right copy at the right price comes along. If you're a returnee DJ whose desperate to play what that guy in the next town's playing then...get your plastic out. As more than a few have discovered. God Bless 'em   :lol:  :wink:

 

There's obviously a number of different categories of record buyers nowadays. Some feed the dealer market and use that environment to source their 45s and some don't. The dynamics of collecting have completely changed with the advent of the internet and then the guides. Just the way it is.  The ONE factor that people continually choose to ignore, maybe because they don't want to identify themselves with it, is the market of the Saturday Night working men's club "DJs". They drive the market, they pay these prices, they are at the heart of the escalating prices.  Buying a 45 at just below "book price" and assuming you got a bargain is nuts. Then after thrashing your once nice styrene copies to death for a year for 50 of your Mates at your venue and then adding 25% on to it whilst attempting to sell them on is even nuttier!  :lol:  

 

I've no doubt that as the dynamics and demographics change once again that all those classic 45s I decided to gamble with and sold over the past decade or so at twenty/thirty times what I paid for them will undoubtedly find their way home at some stage at prices similar to what I originally paid. That's my theory anyway. :hatsoff2:

 

Regards,

 

Dave  

 

 

... err, those 'DJs' are 'bootleg Billys', aren't they?!

 

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Some certainly are but in my experience, there are literally hundreds of guys playing original records week in week out at gigs all over UK.  I certainly sell records to lots of them as I'm sure others do.  Guys who are happy to buy originals and play them at their local gigs, which many of them actually run themselves. There are loads of "DJs" who rotate round their local areas with their boxes of 200 45s.  (And why shouldn't they if they are driven by the wish to DJ?). My point is that this grouping is often overlooked when discussing how the dynamics of record buying are dictated.   

 

Regards,

 

Dave

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Some certainly are but in my experience, there are literally hundreds of guys playing original records week in week out at gigs all over UK.  I certainly sell records to lots of them as I'm sure others do.  Guys who are happy to buy originals and play them at their local gigs, which many of them actually run themselves. There are loads of "DJs" who rotate round their local areas with their boxes of 200 45s.  (And why shouldn't they if they are driven by the wish to DJ?). My point is that this grouping is often overlooked when discussing how the dynamics of record buying are dictated.   

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

That's fine, and fair play to them (and the effect they have on the market ... increasing demand for certain tunes).

 

In the north east of England, however, there are far too many playing boots rather than originals (even at the cheaper end), so I wish there were more 'genuine' collectors dominating the decks. The bootleg Billys out there are probably distorting the market for reissues in the same way - just look at the £100+ that the Duke Browner recently went for, as one such example.

 

Ultimately, there will be good days and bad days with selling prices. There is no set value, just guide prices with adaptations for trends in demand and the application of experience; plus the odd freak result either up (nice result for the seller), or down (a bargain!).

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Guest The Record Box

Collecting originals today can ruin your wealth if you are not careful!!

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Last weekend there was an article about collectible stamps in a "money" section of a newspaper. The main point was how stamps in the Stanley Gibbons price guide rarely sell for the book price. An example was one booked at £175 sold for £6. One collector prices his stamps at between a third and a tenth of the book price. Someone at Stanley Gibbons said prices were for the best condition examples.  Prices for the rarest stamps in mint condition still fetch huge sums, now what does that remind me of?

Rick

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Guest drewid

I know one guy that whenever he buys a record for less than the top price of a "book price" then swears blind he's got a " bargain " not that the price was like astronomical , then, here's the rub , he values his collection at the price guides valuations! I someone's gonna be disappointed

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I know one guy that whenever he buys a record for less than the top price of a "book price" then swears blind he's got a " bargain " not that the price was like astronomical , then, here's the rub , he values his collection at the price guides valuations! I someone's gonna be disappointed

 

World's full of them. I just hope they all decide to "cash in" at the same time before it's too late....there are a few of us vultures circling! :lol:  :thumbsup:

 

Regards,

 

Dave

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World's full of them. I just hope they all decide to "cash in" at the same time before it's too late....there are a few of us vultures circling! :lol:  :thumbsup:

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

Words from an old T-Shirt=

 

"Patience my ass, i'm gonna kill something"

 

Got a new box to fill with records !!!!

 

Garry

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Has anyone actually considered the point that some people buy the guides to try and gain knowledge of what they might be expected to pay for a record ?

 I get a lot of pm's and txts from people asking me what i think a record is worth ,purely because they wanna buy a copy and not sell one .

 

  The scenario being ... "hmmmmm i like the sound of that record on youtube ..would like one but i wonder if i can afford a copy " ?

 

    The other side of it is too murky and already discussed to death !

 P.s

         There is of course the collector who never sells records but still owns the guide book ... so he can use it for that old chestnut ..i"f it says £100 in the guide ,it was written by MANSHIP ,it must be worth half that sir " :g:

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If people use it as a GUIDE then there's no real problem.

If people use it as a BIBLE then it starts to get silly.

Of course the other use it has is for discographies, research, catalogue numbers etc etc, and edition number 5 with those colour plates of the bootlegs and pressings was / is an essential purchase in my opinion.  It's worth £30 just for that information.  No one is more against price guides than I am, but credit where it's due, that book was brilliant.

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I know a guy in our area that sells records at record shows who prices every record he puts out according to the Goldmine price guide, regardless of condition, then takes 50% off of that price.  How generous!

 

I know several record dealers in my area that price everything they sell based on the Goldmine guide.  

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the manship book prices are a constant source for discussion on here, and i do thoroughly enjoy reading them. and i do agree with pete about using soulsource as a guide, from a buyers perspective, to see whats selling at what price. Yet these discussions always centre around the incorrect nature of the records valuation, and there are many threads about 'whats the current value' etc.. now to my point.. the Refosoul section of this forum. doesnt it have a little subheading entitled 'Value'? would this not be a great, immediately update-able and honest way of clearly assessing value for buying or selling purposes? I have noticed, and i may generally be wrong, that this part of Refosoul is a little neglected, and would, if used and updated frequently, create a readily available and reliable soulsource price guide?

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the manship book prices are a constant source for discussion on here, and i do thoroughly enjoy reading them. and i do agree with pete about using soulsource as a guide, from a buyers perspective, to see whats selling at what price. Yet these discussions always centre around the incorrect nature of the records valuation, and there are many threads about 'whats the current value' etc.. now to my point.. the Refosoul section of this forum. doesnt it have a little subheading entitled 'Value'? would this not be a great, immediately update-able and honest way of clearly assessing value for buying or selling purposes? I have noticed, and i may generally be wrong, that this part of Refosoul is a little neglected, and would, if used and updated frequently, create a readily available and reliable soulsource price guide?

 

Good idea, but it would have to be universally agreed that a price is right though wouldn't it?  E.G. the person who uploaded it may value it at one price but a listener may disagree.

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Good idea, but it would have to be universally agreed that a price is right though wouldn't it?  E.G. the person who uploaded it may value it at one price but a listener may disagree.

its certainly tricky, but if their was say a voting system based on if you agree the price, plus it can instantly be changed with fluctuations in the market... tbf it sounds like alot of effort, but then so is all the talk of manship guides, people using it as a bible etc etc. not that i disagree with any of the arguments, but its a case of if you think you can do better, the opportunity has been there i suppose. plus its another useful bit of information consolidated into this excellent website, and might stop people from quoting book prices, but rather soulsource prices. (although i can see this evolving into the same kinda thing aha) 

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I wonder how many earn over £50,000 or whatever it is to qualify to pay vat?

you can volunteer to be vat registered on a lot less than the actual amount pete but i get your point !

dave L

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the manship book prices are a constant source for discussion on here, and i do thoroughly enjoy reading them. and i do agree with pete about using soulsource as a guide, from a buyers perspective, to see whats selling at what price. Yet these discussions always centre around the incorrect nature of the records valuation, and there are many threads about 'whats the current value' etc.. now to my point.. the Refosoul section of this forum. doesnt it have a little subheading entitled 'Value'? would this not be a great, immediately update-able and honest way of clearly assessing value for buying or selling purposes? I have noticed, and i may generally be wrong, that this part of Refosoul is a little neglected, and would, if used and updated frequently, create a readily available and reliable soulsource price guide?

Refosoul does have this feature readily available for Members to use.

I have entered 2 different prices for the same record as a test.

Therefore, I believe different opinions on value can be posted.

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