Troy Marrs - Rhythm Message - Sure-shot

 

After a bit of history on this folks. I associate this most fondly with Colin Law playing it as (I think) Willie G and the Magic Rhythm Band (at Shotts etc). Just need a bit of clarification that Colin (if you're here...) was first / one of the first to play this, or anyone else else possibly around the same time? Dates, names and places please ! Did read somewhere it was a Stafford play which would predate me hearing it go big in Scotland, but not sure whether this was urban myth. Need to get my facts straight for the next book...

 

Any comment Colin ? Or Chalky on the Stafford bit?

 

Cheers guys!

Edited September 3, 201311 yr by Windlesoul

First I've heard of this mentioned alongside Stafford although I'm sure with it being on Sureshot it would be known to some.  Colin is the first I remember playing it around 1987 covered up as you say.

Cheers Chalky.

Maybe Colin could throw some light on things too?

I thought that Pat Brady played it at Stafford?

Old London Mod Scene sound early 80s

Colin covered it up as Willie G, pretty sure from one of his sessions round his house when he had a batch of new records, which was almost weekly then, it was definitely Shotts so after Stafford. Theory was it would be known to hard core collectors but worth a cover up to get some plays out of it, it stayed c/u for quite a while although Guy found a couple. which he sold c/u. Would bet my house against Pat having played it, and certainly not as Willie G as it was a name created at Shotts time

 

Neither of us ever went to any London mods clubs so can't comment, but lots of London mods were coming to Shotts and none of them got it,...

Im talkin about 82/83

Ian Jackson had it,i had it but we never went to Northern soul nights only the 100 club or similar in London

And i very much doubt anyone outa London woulda heard of us

Al H

Did the 100 Club maybe beat us Scots to it then? Ady C.?

Edited September 4, 201311 yr by Windlesoul

I've never heard of this record being associated with Pat, never heard him play it and never heard him talk about it when it was being spun by Colin....happy to be proved wrong and that it was Stafford spin but no one I've pestered (and that's a lot of folk) mentioned this in the same breath as Stafford.

I just assumed Stafford, no real reason apart from its style. Although when Colin played it...it was new to my young ears at the time. Rather hard to believe that it may have been overlooked when the likes of J J Daniels Mr Lonesome was getting a run.

Colin was the first I remember playing it Mark around 86/87and as you say c/u as Willie G and the magical Rhythm band......it was brand new to almost all who heard it and took the roof off everywhere Colin played it...it was for quite some time the biggest tune,(monster would be a better term)on the Scottish scene for at least 2 or 3 years and no one really knowing what it was other than Willie G....I bought Colin's copy off him about 1990 and asked around after that if any one knew it, the ones I asked didn't ....I remember Guy turning up a couple of copies just after I bought Colin's copy and selling it as Jock said still C/u as Willie G....I've still got the copy that Colin played out.

Pat played it at Stafford and elsewhere and I bought a spare copy off him around 1985/6.

 

Got a few plays (uncovered) by both myself and Pat at early Bradford Queens Hall all-niters in late '87 early '88. And was definitely played also at least once at Leeds Astoria.

 

Pat also played it at Mexborough all-niter once

Pat played it at Stafford and elsewhere and I bought a spare copy off him around 1985/6.

 

Got a few plays (uncovered) by both myself and Pat at early Bradford Queens Hall all-niters in late '87 early '88. And was definitely played also at least once at Leeds Astoria.

 

Pat also played it at Mexborough all-niter once

 

Bollocks to Stafford, another of your dodgy selective memories methings Philip.

 

Just had it confirmed from Colin we found it in Florida which places it as 84 and it was covered up in one of our midweek sessions, so as I thought. Chance of Pat coming up with an equally ridiculous cover up name that just happened to be identical is slim wouldn't you think.

 

Re 87/88, possibly. Most English all nighters were following in our wake by then and to be honest all the good guys were only paying attention at Allanton.....

I just assumed Stafford, no real reason apart from its style. Although when Colin played it...it was new to my young ears at the time. Rather hard to believe that it may have been overlooked when the likes of J J Daniels Mr Lonesome was getting a run.

 

Was JJ Daniels getting a run then? I didn't know that till much later. Its amazing how many big label stuff had new plays at that time with minimal fuss.

 

I think its easy to forget pre internet days how many things turned up later, particularly as it was the second wave of people digging through different sounds, Also pre internet its perfectly feasible for different people in different areas to be playing same records without ever knowing, so it is perfectly feasible that Phil and Pat were playing this in second level all nighters and we weren't aware, however as Colin was playing at every main all nighter that played new stuff then, my eyebrows remain raised without documentary evidence......

Im talkin about 82/83

Ian Jackson had it,i had it but we never went to Northern soul nights only the 100 club or similar in London

And i very much doubt anyone outa London woulda heard of us

Al H

 

I wasn't doubting you mate, more a jocular dig at the London mods that used to come North, ala Mr Smith, Franklin Simpson etc.

 

As I say later, pre internet I suspect lots of things were being played in more than one place, although would be surprised at 100 club as again lots of regulars went North and South then.

Bollocks to Stafford, another of your dodgy selective memories methings Philip.

 

Just had it confirmed from Colin we found it in Florida which places it as 84 and it was covered up in one of our midweek sessions, so as I thought. Chance of Pat coming up with an equally ridiculous cover up name that just happened to be identical is slim wouldn't you think.

 

Re 87/88, possibly. Most English all nighters were following in our wake by then and to be honest all the good guys were only paying attention at Allanton.....

 

 

I said it was played "uncovered" at Bradford, can't remember if he played it covered up or not before. And if he did cover it up, I have no recollection of what it was covered as.

 

Maybe not played at Stafford then, but I deffo bought it off Pat in 85/86 and he had definitely played it out before I bought it off him,.

Was JJ Daniels getting a run then? I didn't know that till much later. Its amazing how many big label stuff had new plays at that time with minimal fuss.

 

I think its easy to forget pre internet days how many things turned up later, particularly as it was the second wave of people digging through different sounds, Also pre internet its perfectly feasible for different people in different areas to be playing same records without ever knowing, so it is perfectly feasible that Phil and Pat were playing this in second level all nighters and we weren't aware, however as Colin was playing at every main all nighter that played new stuff then, my eyebrows remain raised without documentary evidence......

 

I wouldn't have classed Bradford as a second level all-niter, but then that's just me. Just because we never booked Colin Law doesn't make it one. I mostly booked the DJ's and didn't know Colin, so couldn't have booked him anyway. I knew who he was, but didn't know him.

 

And we are talking probably early 1988 when it was played at Bradford, maybe even mid 1988 as it was still on my playlist when we started Leeds Astoria.

 

So that's years after you're talking about anyway.

Edited September 4, 201311 yr by phild

Sooooo.....

 

 

London mod scene '82/83...+ / - @ 100 Club (really could do with Ady confirming / refuting this)

 

Then Colin gets hold of one '84 then later c/u'd as Willie G and Magic Rhythm band, covered up for what, a year or two? Goes maseeve ya bas by '87ish  at Allanton (did he maybe play it at Glenrothes YM too? Steve / Alan to comment?)

 

No to Stafford

 

Then Pat, '85/86/87 Phil etc

 

Yes? No?

 

(Jock would you mind PMing  me Colin's email details please if you've got em, need to ask him a favour)

Edited September 4, 201311 yr by Windlesoul

Stafford closed February 1986.

It was massive 1987 at Chesterfield, Blackburn and Allanton when that started end of the year, I'm almost certain it was still being played covered up then.

As I said earlier never ever heard of this being associated with Pat by anyone other than Phil.

I will email Pat see if he has any recollections.

Sooooo.....

 

 

London mod scene '82/83...+ / - @ 100 Club (really could do with Ady confirming / refuting this)

 

Then Colin gets hold of one '84 then later c/u'd as Willie G and Magic Rhythm band, covered up for what, a year or two? Goes maseeve ya bas by '87ish  at Allanton (did he maybe play it at Glenrothes YM too? Steve / Alan to comment?)

 

No to Stafford

 

Then Pat, '85/86/87 Phil etc

 

Yes? No?

 

(Jock would you mind PMing  me Colin's email details please if you've got em, need to ask him a favour)

 

I don't think Colin played it our right away, thats when we brought them back, I forgot I got one as well, must check if its still there. 

 

I would go with Chalky it kicking off in 86 when Colin was starting to dj all over England but not an every spot play and then massive at Allanton from start, it stayed c/u for a few years. Andy says 90 and I wouldn't go against that, it was amazing how many people asked what it was at time and didn't know it. Although to be fair its a bit off the wall so you can see how it might have been passed over by traditionalists. 

 

Like all these things mate its impossible to totally tie it down, particularly for a record like this and that period when more venues were regionally popular, despite my tongue in cheek responses to Phil, there was so much getting played and it was a period I was out ever weekend, I sometimes spent more time in corridors or record bars than the dance floor so there is no way I would state it as 100% positive, I would be very surprised, but not shocked, by 100 Club (later years to be fair, I didn't start going till 1984 so not sure what format was earlier than that) or Stafford plays, but the rest is more than likely.

 

I think its fair to say though it was Allanton where it found its spiritual home, and thats always what counts for me for a record. And as Andy said it was amazingly unknown to majority of people. 

I wouldn't have classed Bradford as a second level all-niter, but then that's just me. Just because we never booked Colin Law doesn't make it one. I mostly booked the DJ's and didn't know Colin, so couldn't have booked him anyway. I knew who he was, but didn't know him.

 

And we are talking probably early 1988 when it was played at Bradford, maybe even mid 1988 as it was still on my playlist when we started Leeds Astoria.

 

So that's years after you're talking about anyway.

 

I was being a bit naughty and nationalistic, and slightly hoping old Patrick would be reading this over his morning coffee and spluttering it all over the screen in temper when he seen my cheek, and more than slightly hoping that old Patrick forgets my words before he sees me next and doesn't feel the need to scud my lug!

 

As I say below mate, its impossible at that time to pin everything down, and Bradford at that point was an allnighter I spent more time on the stairs or nooks and crannies rather than listening in dance hall.

Stafford closed February 1986.

It was massive 1987 at Chesterfield, Blackburn and Allanton when that started end of the year, I'm almost certain it was still being played covered up then.

As I said earlier never ever heard of this being associated with Pat by anyone other than Phil.

I will email Pat see if he has any recollections.

As I said, I associate this record with Pat as he definitely played it out "somewhere" before I bought it off him. And it was definitely played by me and (I believe) Pat at Bradford and latterly for a bit at Leeds Astoria.

Mind you the association with Pat to me may be stronger than it should be due to me buying it from him.

Although I freely admit that I could be wrong as I am mostly old and worn out these days I still think that Pat played this at Stafford, and that he reviewed it in Echoes at about the same time.

TT

It's defo Oct or Nov 1990 that I bought Colin's copy from him still covered up....Allanton was still on the go and didn't finish till spring 91....I offered Colin his copy back to play out, but not for sale as it was Colin's baby and as Jock beautifully put it,...it was its spiritual home and is synonymous with Allanton for so many....it was still covered up at least till Allanton finished which was April/ May 91.

Sooooo.....

 

 

London mod scene '82/83...+ / - @ 100 Club (really could do with Ady confirming / refuting this)

 

 

Can't say I remember it being played at the 100 Club in the early years 

Wasn't it on a Kent lp ?

Wasn't it on a Kent lp ?

There was a Kent LP of Sure-Shot tracks released during 1988, but Troy Marrs wasn't on it. Must admit I was already semi-collecting the label before then and had a copy of TM mid-80's for sure. Other stable mates also doing the rounds at that point were Ricky Ricks', "Chained & Bound", Norma Rudd's, "He's Mine" , Buster Jones', "Baby Boy" and JJ Daniels', "Mr. Lonesome"...alongside the more obvious Oldies (Bobby Williams, Malibus etc). The one I was chasing for a fair while was the Tornadoes version of "Little Sally Walker", which GuyH had covered up as the Fabulous Puzzles.

Nope, just on the mod circuit I think

It could have been an original mod record, it was always around

There was a Kent LP of Sure-Shot tracks released during 1988, but Troy Marrs wasn't on it. Must admit I was already semi-collecting the label before then and had a copy of TM mid-80's for sure. Other stable mates also doing the rounds at that point were Ricky Ricks', "Chained & Bound", Norma Rudd's, "He's Mine" , Buster Jones', "Baby Boy" and JJ Daniels', "Mr. Lonesome"...alongside the more obvious Oldies (Bobby Williams, Malibus etc). The one I was chasing for a fair while was the Tornadoes version of "Little Sally Walker", which GuyH had covered up as the Fabulous Puzzles.

 

Ah Norma Rudd, carried away by the success of TM, I covered up Norma Rudd, and within 30 seconds of its first play I couldn't get near the decks for the queue of people waiting to tell me what it really was.

 

Some you win etc etc.....

An epic record indeed around the allanton era, a proper allnighter tune with great mystique from that C/U name. A record i always associate with allanton.

Be interesting to hear Pat's response to Chalkys email because i recall being suprised reading Pat had played it c/u as billy watkins at wigan. I read that when i knew what it was ywars after colin had uncovered it. Cant be sure where i read that but am pretty sure it was in a list of old cover ips and what they turned out to be.

..so whats the word from pat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xSpaEYJ3huM

Which was the preferred side that was played, I tend to alternate ?

Edited September 6, 201311 yr by nickp

I've heard from Pat. He said he never playd it at Stafford. He neither mentioned about him playing it elsewhere. Like I said I don't recall Pat playing it at any allnighters, he had a great set of his own.

I feel even more old and worn out now then!

I've heard from Pat. He said he never playd it at Stafford. He neither mentioned about him playing it elsewhere. Like I said I don't recall Pat playing it at any allnighters, he had a great set of his own.

Wouldn't have been played before the Stafford era; doesn't have the right sound that we were looking for. I remember going up to Scotland and hearing Colin playing it, covered up!  I was surprised that it was covered up because it was a well-known record in collectors circles during the 7ts.  Colin got a good reaction from the dancers up there when he played it, whereas I got an almost empty dance floor when I played the likes of mello souls, tommy ridgley, appointments, diane lewis, jesse davis etc.

I've heard from Pat. He said he never playd it at Stafford. He neither mentioned about him playing it elsewhere. Like I said I don't recall Pat playing it at any allnighters, he had a great set of his own.

 

He certainly did. As i wouldn't have heard it otherwise and hence wanted to buy it from him. I never ventured to Allanton other than once. I think his memory is as shot as mine

 

He definitely played it at Bradford, although that may have been part of the sales technique to get me to buy it.

Edited September 6, 201311 yr by phild

As Butch says well known to collectors before it got plays by Colin so I would have though Pat well aware of it. However he is adamant he didn't play the record, in particular at Stafford. Bradford would be a few years after, 1988?

Edited September 6, 201311 yr by chalky

Wouldn't have been played before the Stafford era; doesn't have the right sound that we were looking for. I remember going up to Scotland and hearing Colin playing it, covered up!  I was surprised that it was covered up because it was a well-known record in collectors circles during the 7ts.  Colin got a good reaction from the dancers up there when he played it, whereas I got an almost empty dance floor when I played the likes of mello souls, tommy ridgley, appointments, diane lewis, jesse davis etc.

butch, not even the roman empire could civilize them there jocks...what chance one man and his record box from stoke on trent !!!???

i'm going to hide under my tin hat now

franc

I reckon in answer to the original question, it was well known to collectors, had pays on the Mod Scene in London early 80's before gaining wider recognition on the Northern scene via Colin.

As Butch says well known to collectors before it got plays by Colin so I would have though Pat well aware of it. However he is adamant he didn't play the record, in particular at Stafford. Bradford would be a few years after, 1988?

 

He played it at Bradford probably early 1988

He played it at Bradford probably early 1988

So that is after Stafford and after Colin...... (bangs head on wall)

So that is after Stafford and after Colin...... (bangs head on wall)

 

If you read my earlier posts I have never said anything any different.

 

I said I bought it off Pat in about 1985/86, though I am sure he played it earlier than that. I thought it may have been Stafford, but I wasn't sure. And he definitely played it at Bradford in either late 87 or early 88.

Wouldn't have been played before the Stafford era; doesn't have the right sound that we were looking for. I remember going up to Scotland and hearing Colin playing it, covered up!  I was surprised that it was covered up because it was a well-known record in collectors circles during the 7ts.  Colin got a good reaction from the dancers up there when he played it, whereas I got an almost empty dance floor when I played the likes of mello souls, tommy ridgley, appointments, diane lewis, jesse davis etc.

Strange world of northern soul as they say mate. You had to be dead from the waist down not to dance to those.