My last all-nighter was 1985, so forgive me if I'm off the mark here, R&B to me was cool, not Northern Soul dance music, but cool. Why is there this hatred towards R&B now ? I've seen photo's of people wearing anti-R&B T-shirts ? Is it something todays DJ's are pushing, that offends people. A couple of examples I could hear or look up on YTube, would help me understand.

1983/84 len

 

Cheers Ted, I remember Tony Parker mentioning you as a collector years before I met you, but that was later. I also remember you came to D.J for him at The Pemberton Centre (First time round) I can't remember if that was before All-brighton, after, or around the same time!.....Oh well  

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Chalky - the genre of Northern Soul has flexible boundaries enabling anything that ticks the boxes to be included, so if it sounds Northern, it is Northern. Ray Agee on Soultown was probably only pressed as 100-200 copies, maybe four or eight 25 count boxes judging from the number that have survived, so chart success was evidently not the prime motivator. The UK adopted the Soultown offerings by Ray, Tempos, Sweets, Little Helen etc as they fitted the Northern template and would have been largely ignored had they been early 60's RnB which of course they weren't...

 

What was the motivator.? They only pressed up small amounts due to demand.Money or fame is the only motivator.An uptempo,rare tune has all the ingredients to make it a NS classic.This one happens to have r'n'b overtones.

I totally understand the need by some to stamp the Northern Scenes ownership of discovering such a record and creating its subsequent demand.

No-one is disputing how this record became the holy grail it has to many collectors and DJs.

All that aside, to dismiss it as having zero R&B qualities is quite bizarre. Are we listening to the same record?

If it was a lush motownesque production full of strings and soulful harmonies I could totally understand this view....but it is undoubtably uptempo R&B....maybe more polished than other tracks Ray released, and obviously more soulful than the Blues tracks that he cut.....but we all know that R&B can have a gritty soulful edge and still maintain its identity as an R&B track.

This doesn't steal anything from what the scene has created by discovering and unleashing this monster tune upon the masses, and likewise it shouldn't mask the true origin of wonderful piece of music just to satisfy personal memories of the good old days.....

So Mace, is Lou Pride's I'm Coming Home RnB also? It has similar qualities to Ray Agee's ILA though. Not all Northern records have backing vocals or strings but I'm Losing Again has the right instruments, tempo, vocals, structure and duration to fit the bill and it's on a soul label from a soul outfit in a soul centre and at a guess, produced in the latter half of the 60's when soul music was just that, a sound that struck an inner chord...

Chalky - the genre of Northern Soul has flexible boundaries enabling anything that ticks the boxes to be included, so if it sounds Northern, it is Northern. Ray Agee on Soultown was probably only pressed as 100-200 copies, maybe four or eight 25 count boxes judging from the number that have survived, so chart success was evidently not the prime motivator. The UK adopted the Soultown offerings by Ray, Tempos, Sweets, Little Helen etc as they fitted the Northern template and would have been largely ignored had they been early 60's RnB which of course they weren't...

So if it became a local hit with massive demand and all 200 sold out with 1000s more wanting a copy then SoulTown would of refused to press more copies ?

what about if a major label came in and wanted to buy the rights and press 1 million copies due to demand do you think SoulTown would of refused ?

personally I think it was aimed at the local market with an eye on making serious money and a run at the RnB charts.  But then again I know nothing I'm just guessing 

 

Marv Johnson - Come on and stop.   Isn't that RnB and aimed at the RnB market. To me its northern 

Chalky - the genre of Northern Soul has flexible boundaries enabling anything that ticks the boxes to be included, so if it sounds Northern, it is Northern. Ray Agee on Soultown was probably only pressed as 100-200 copies, maybe four or eight 25 count boxes judging from the number that have survived, so chart success was evidently not the prime motivator. The UK adopted the Soultown offerings by Ray, Tempos, Sweets, Little Helen etc as they fitted the Northern template and would have been largely ignored had they been early 60's RnB which of course they weren't...

 

 

A record was initial pressed to gauge demand.  Not every company could afford to press 1000's from the off like the majors.  If the first batch sold more were pressed.  If they didn't sell they moved on to the next recording.  I would say every company like Soultown's aim was to sell as many of each recording they could.  Just because a record didn't sell doesn't mean that wasn't the initial intention behind the release.  I would have thought without distribution, promotion and DJ's on your pay roll chart success was never going to happen but that doesn't mean they weren't out to sell as many as possible.

 

Again Northern Soul didn't exist when Ray Agee etc were recorded.  It wasn't recorded for a small underground scene 1000's of miles away.  It was recorded for the local black market.  The Uk Rare Northern Soul Scene gave them a second lease of life.

So Mace, is Lou Pride's I'm Coming Home RnB also?

 

Nope - that's another reggae one.

 

Clearly you weren't paying attention a few pages ago Frankie

So if it became a local hit with massive demand and all 200 sold out with 1000s more wanting a copy then SoulTown would of refused to press more copies ?

what about if a major label came in and wanted to buy the rights and press 1 million copies due to demand do you think SoulTown would of refused ?

personally I think it was aimed at the local market with an eye on making serious money and a run at the RnB charts.  But then again I know nothing I'm just guessing 

 

Marv Johnson - Come on and stop.   Isn't that RnB and aimed at the RnB market. To me its northern 

 

I don't think it's Northern (especially as it has the same tune as Jamaica Ska by the Ska Kings, they probably covered him though) sounds like a black pop record with R & B overtones, wouldn't have stood a chance as a Northern record 30 years ago

 

 

Again Northern Soul didn't exist when Ray Agee etc were recorded.  

 

I don't know why you keep saying this.  Nobody is saying they are tailor made Northern Soul records, but as Frankie rightly says, the sound of 1964-67 was the big city soul sound and the motown sound and thats what lots of records were made to sound like because of those influences.  From a 1973 viewpoint, or a 2014 viewpoint, Ray Agee and 50,000 other records ARE Northern Soul.

Can someone post up clips of the R'N'B they don't like.? Give us something to get our teeth into.? (not Ray Agee though).

What? They wrote a tune, hired an arranger and singer and then they spent studio time and pressed up the record in order to create future rarity...?

Exactly. Many of the cuttings were vanity projects. Some were just bog-standard filling in work. Small numbers were pressed to gain radio station air-time and if this succeeded, more were pressed up. As it transpired, the commercial failures turned out to be the rich vein of quality sounds that we now seek. There appears to be no demo of Ray Agee on Soultown so the issues must have used as DJ samples confirming lack of confidence and/or investment in this particular tune.

Exactly. Many of the cuttings were vanity projects. Some were just bog-standard filling in work. Small numbers were pressed to gain radio station air-time and if this succeeded, more were pressed up. As it transpired, the commercial failures turned out to be the rich vein of quality sounds that we now seek. There appears to be no demo of Ray Agee on Soultown so the issues must have used as DJ samples confirming lack of confidence and/or investment in this particular tune.

 

 

I see what you mean but I doubt someone like Ray Agee, who'd been recording since 1952 would be interested in a vanity project. I'm afraid your original argument that the motive was not to sell records or make money is undermined by the rest of the above post.

Aha! Got you again

So Mace, is Lou Pride's I'm Coming Home RnB also? It has similar qualities to Ray Agee's ILA though. Not all Northern records have backing vocals or strings but I'm Losing Again has the right instruments, tempo, vocals, structure and duration to fit the bill and it's on a soul label from a soul outfit in a soul centre and at a guess, produced in the latter half of the 60's when soul music was just that, a sound that struck an inner chord...

 

To be honest, I'm not sure what you guys actually expect an R&B tune to sound like.....I'm well aware that not all Northern records have backing vocals and string, but it was certainly this lusher sound that paved the way for Northern to create its own identity away from the gritty soul & R&B that was played at The Wheel......my point being that this record obviously doesn't fall into the typical Northern Soul category that most folk embraced to take the scene in a new direction.

 

I'm also not disputing its soulful, but then again, plenty of R&B tracks are.

 

I'm not niave enough to believe that you and Pete expect a typical R&B record to be along the lines of Sonny Boy Williamson or Howlin Wolf...but it confuses me how you cannot hear the gritty soul / R&B content in this tune??

 

Ah well, each to there own, but as mentioned above, this tune will undoubtably be played in the Pow Wow room at the forthcoming 2 room Allnighter coupled with Lifeline.

The floor will be full of dancers on an R&B trip......if it gets played in the Lifeline room I'm sure the same would be true for a floor full of soulies.

 

Perhaps we should celebrate that fact instead of squabbling over what our ears are telling our brains....however, as I'm younger than Pete I'm sure my hearing is better than his ;o)

 

 

Edited March 4, 201411 yr by Mace

I think this is why all of us disagree with each other...…Personally I focus on the word ‘Soul’, and expect just that, but the term ‘Northern Soul’ really does mean up-tempo 60’s dance music ……“Hooray!” (I hear Terry shout)    

 

The problem I have, is that I don’t want ‘Northern Soul’ all night, I want ‘Soul’, which includes Mid-tempo, and some 70’s type tunes (This is why some people don’t use the term)

 

Have to say though, as ‘Incognito’ pointed out (post 192) during the period he mentioned, lots of different stuff was played (Including some R’n’B), and it was played in the right ratio so all flowed together nicely - You simply didn’t get time to get bored.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Edited March 4, 201411 yr by LEN

Can someone post up clips of the R'N'B they don't like.? Give us something to get our teeth into.? (not Ray Agee though).

 

There ya go mate - One awful record

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

THE 5 ROYALES Catch That Teardrop

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3jrOOUeGPw

Can someone post up clips of the R'N'B they don't like.? Give us something to get our teeth into.? (not Ray Agee though).

 

Otis lee -hard road to hoe.   God damn awful record that somehow gets a full dance floor at a "northern soul" event.   Someone going to tell me its not RnB but northern or punk or something 

Can someone post up clips of the R'N'B they don't like.? Give us something to get our teeth into.? (not Ray Agee though).

 

Hows about Bobby Bland 'Shoes'.......

 

 

;o)

Cookie Jackson. Charles Sheffield. Bill bush, JT Parker, black wigs have my angle, burnt bread and ovaltine.  Never liked any of them and where I've been out Souling they all been played enough times for me to of maybe changed my mind but sadly they just make my ears bleed.  

Hows about Bobby Bland 'Shoes'.......

 

 

;o)

My all time biggest dislike yet everyone else I have ever come accross loves this 

Something I do like -

 

....Because it's got 'Soul'!

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

'The Trends - If You Don't Dig The Blues'

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwSPco8exUw

I don't think it's Northern (especially as it has the same tune as Jamaica Ska by the Ska Kings, they probably covered him though) sounds like a black pop record with R & B overtones, wouldn't have stood a chance as a Northern record 30 years ago

But it is northern Pete and a floor filler too

Cookie Jackson. Charles Sheffield. Bill bush, JT Parker, black wigs have my angle, burnt bread and ovaltine.  Never liked any of them and where I've been out Souling they all been played enough times for me to of maybe changed my mind but sadly they just make my ears bleed.  

 

You and Len should get together and put a night on........regardless of date I'll make my excuses now....

 

;o)

Otis lee -hard road to hoe.   God damn awful record that somehow gets a full dance floor at a "northern soul" event.   Someone going to tell me its not RnB but northern or punk or something 

 

That is a unique record that fitted so well when first played, and was very 'left field'. It has stood the test of time, and I still think it's pretty unique.

 

All the best,

 

Len

Edited March 4, 201411 yr by LEN

Hows about Bobby Bland 'Shoes'.......

 

 

;o)

 

Now that one IS both Northern and R & B  

in fact it crosses over both genres, so it must be Crossover!

Now that one IS both Northern and R & B  

in fact it crosses over both genres, so it must be Crossover!

Crossunder Pete.

 

You're so yesterday......

 

How about Ray Charles -' i don't need no doctor' or' i chose to sing the blues'

Round 2

This could go on forever!    - I love 'Bobby Bland - Shoes'  

 

......and back full circle to my very first post......."If it ain't soul, it ain't soul"

 

I think it's great that 'you lot' get it so wrong.......or is it me that does?.......In any case - it's what makes us all tick!  

 

All the best.

 

Len  

You and Len should get together and put a night on........regardless of date I'll make my excuses now....

 

;o)

Will you guest dj for us Mace    Seriously though I'm not a hater of RnB its just some I can't stomach which is no different to all the other so called genres but I am always open to hearing new stuff and I do like some things that sound RnB to me but don't ask me what they are I never ask for them lol.   Like I said earlier in thread I went to Go Go a few times and danced all night long to everything and they like their RnB there 

Ah, but I never said it couldn't be catagorised as both, I merely pointed out that it came from an orange tree so must be an orange....a fruit tree could yield a totally different product...the fact that it also belongs to the category of being a fruit is due to the way it grows, the fact remains it is by most accurate definition, an orange.

It might also appear greenish in colour, due to not being ripe, so despite not BEING orange, it is stil an orange.

Surely that rests my case in the matter......

;o)

That's some philosophical shit mace, you been reading bertrand russell?

r&b has blues chord changes, ray agee is r&b, and northern too of course. Because northern isnt a genre.

fucking groundhog day on here :-)

Len both tracks you put up are quality!

Will you guest dj for us Mace    Seriously though I'm not a hater of RnB its just some I can't stomach which is no different to all the other so called genres but I am always open to hearing new stuff and I do like some things that sound RnB to me but don't ask me what they are I never ask for them lol.   Like I said earlier in thread I went to Go Go a few times and danced all night long to everything and they like their RnB there 

 

I'm DJing at GoGo in May...come say hello and I'll play all your non-faves for ya....no dancing though, or pics will be posted!

Calling all promoters. Can we please have  across the  board music at a allnighter . Without calling it this or that

Go on I dare you. Steve

Edited March 4, 201411 yr by Winsford Soul

Calling all promoters. Can we please have  across the  board music at a allnighter . Without calling it this or that

Go on I dare you. Steve

 

ATB nights should be abolished not encouraged.  Nothing worse than having to stand listening to half an hour or an hour of music that you detest before the real stuff comes back on.

How about Ray Charles -' i don't need no doctor' or' i chose to sing the blues'

Round 2

 

Both are Northern, surely - from an artist that spans R & B, Soul, Country and Pop.

ATB nights should be abolished not encouraged.  Nothing worse than having to stand listening to half an hour or an hour of music that you detest before the real stuff comes back on.

That's your opinion Pete. And whilst I respect it, I don't agree with it. What I should have said is that DJ,s play across the board sets , that way if you don't like R n B for instance you only have to put up with a few tunes and not a full hour. Steve

Is it over....?

 

Please tell me it's over.......

 

Some fcuker lock the door whilst Lens out the room.....

But if it's not a genre, what are we into?  What are all the websites, events, cd compilations dedicated to Northern Soul?  In HMV, every genre is represented and there's one for Northern Soul compilations as well as Blues, Reggae etc.  What type of music did we or do we all travel round the country to hear?  It's Northern Soul.

Aye but I could say that I generally like 'mod' music. I went to mod clubs for years, was a mod dj and could be said to play mod music.

So if I played ray agee, I could say 'that's not r&b, it's mod'?

That's pretty much wgat you're saying.

mod is a recognisable set of music, as is northern soul, but if a latin, ska or soul record fits into that secondary set, then it doesn't cease to be the genre it primarily was.

Aye but I could say that I generally like 'mod' music. I went to mod clubs for years, was a mod dj and could be said to play mod music.

So if I played ray agee, I could say 'that's not r&b, it's mod'?

That's pretty much wgat you're saying.

mod is a recognisable set of music, as is northern soul, but if a latin, ska or soul record fits into that secondary set, then it doesn't cease to be the genre it primarily was.

 

Again, I agree with you!

So is it a Mod record now.......?

 

Northern soul gets played at Mod events, so Ray Agee could be an R&B record by origin, subsequently tagged as a Northern Soul record, and ultimately tagged as a Mod record.

 

It's the record that keeps on giving.....

So is it a Mod record now.......?

 

Northern soul gets played at Mod events, so Ray Agee could be an R&B record by origin, subsequently tagged as a Northern Soul record, and ultimately tagged as a Mod record.

 

It's the record that keeps on giving.....

 

No, it's Northern...

No, it's Northern...

Ha ha......I'm guessing you had a tough time as a kid.....

 

Ha ha......I'm guessing you had a tough time as a kid.....

 

 

Only in the sense that I never had a bike...

Only in the sense that I never had a bike...

I'll buy you one if you promise to get on it and do one for a while....

 

Len both tracks you put up are quality!

 

No they're not mate, just the one is (The Trends)

 

....Just so you know  

 

Ouch!.....Ok I asked for that kick  

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

 

•  

I'll buy you one if you promise to get on it and do one for a while....

 

 

Not a lot of good now is it, I don't feel the urge to go nesting and scrumping at 53 years and 358 days old.

So is it a Mod record now.......?

 

Northern soul gets played at Mod events, so Ray Agee could be an R&B record by origin, subsequently tagged as a Northern Soul record, and ultimately tagged as a Mod record.

 

It's the record that keeps on giving.....

Mace.  we will have to agee on that. I nearly called you your real name then.   Steve

Not a lot of good now is it, I don't feel the urge to go nesting and scrumping at 53 years and 358 days old.

 

I wasn't considering the benefits in your favour......

Is it over....?

 

Please tell me it's over.......

 

Some fcuker lock the door whilst Lens out the room.....

 

 

Can you see me?!  .....I've just been on the phone - Yes, out of the room!  

 

Len  

So, see you all down at the R&B sessions in the Redemption Room this coming weekend at Prestatyn then?     

.....Just left the room again, and I noticed that my whole road has been blocked off, with three fire engines, and loads of Police out there. So I nipped out to have a word with the Plod, and it seems a murder has taken place (allegedly) and a whole house has been set on fire, and put out.......whilst I was here 'chatting' on Soul-source......"I didn't see or hear anything your honour because I was on Soul-source".......

 

.......Blimey.......

 

I kid you not - You will see it on the news tomorrow.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Here we go guys - have a smile.

 

Wikipedia says most of you are wrong.

 

Look what they say about Northern Soul here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_styles_of_music:_N%E2%80%93R

 

Northern Soul - soul music made by northern English

 

(I imagine a word like "popular" is missing between made and by.)

Edited March 4, 201411 yr by MBarrett