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Dave Ward

This R&b Thing ?

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My last all-nighter was 1985, so forgive me if I'm off the mark here, R&B to me was cool, not Northern Soul dance music, but cool. Why is there this hatred towards R&B now ? I've seen photo's of people wearing anti-R&B T-shirts ? Is it something todays DJ's are pushing, that offends people. A couple of examples I could hear or look up on YTube, would help me understand.

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My last all-nighter was 1985, so forgive me if I'm off the mark here, R&B to me was cool, not Northern Soul dance music, but cool. Why is there this hatred towards R&B now ? I've seen photo's of people wearing anti-R&B T-shirts ? Is it something todays DJ's are pushing, that offends people. A couple of examples I could hear or look up on YTube, would help me understand.

 

....."If it ain't Soul, it ain't Soul".......

 

All the best,

 

Len :thumbsup: 

 

P.s - Meant in the nicest possible way :wink: 

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My last all-nighter was 1985, so forgive me if I'm off the mark here, R&B to me was cool, not Northern Soul dance music, but cool. Why is there this hatred towards R&B now ? I've seen photo's of people wearing anti-R&B T-shirts ? Is it something todays DJ's are pushing, that offends people. A couple of examples I could hear or look up on YTube, would help me understand.

 

I think it's because it just went a bit too far back in time (literally, to the 50's) to the point where R & B was almost indistinguishable from rock & roll.  If you think of something brilliant like Jimmy Robbins - I Can't Please You, which people call R & B but I thunk is out and out Northern, then compare it to say Charles Sheffield, one is NS, the other is R&R.  

I like it but I think maybe some have pushed it to it's limits and it could live a happy life away from NS, and probably does anyway.

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My last all-nighter was 1985, so forgive me if I'm off the mark here, R&B to me was cool, not Northern Soul dance music, but cool. Why is there this hatred towards R&B now ? I've seen photo's of people wearing anti-R&B T-shirts ? Is it something todays DJ's are pushing, that offends people. A couple of examples I could hear or look up on YTube, would help me understand.

Ask Mace. He's been known to partake in the devils  music.  :shades:  Steve

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I think it's because it just went a bit too far back in time (literally, to the 50's) to the point where R & B was almost indistinguishable from rock & roll.  If you think of something brilliant like Jimmy Robbins - I Can't Please You, which people call R & B but I thunk is out and out Northern, then compare it to say Charles Sheffield, one is NS, the other is R&R.  

I like it but I think maybe some have pushed it to it's limits and it could live a happy life away from NS, and probably does anyway.

 

'kin well said!.....Jimmy Robbins - fantastic R'n'B Soul record...then people 'scraped that barrel' to be 'cutting edge'......"Put Jimmy Mack on FFS!!!"

 

Get me? :wink: 

 

Len :thumbsup: 

 

P.s - I did a couple of The Embankment Club Posters with "R'n'B stinks". on them...they went down rather well....ahem.....well Roger Banks thought they were hilarious......as did I.....after the death threats......

 

:excl: 

 

:D 

Edited by LEN

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Yes, undoubtably some stuff has been played that pushed the limits on what is acceptable to the UK soul scene....but this is no different to the extreme dross that has been played from every other genre in the pursuit of playing something different.

R&B on the whole is very cool club music, but generally frowned upon by those who wish to play dreary Luther Vandross records or applaud the efforts of Pharrell Wotshisname in an effort to think that they are still cool despite losing most of their hair and teeth 10 years ago.

Charles Sheffield fills oldies dancefloors as much as any Wigan Oldie and probably moreso than any Shrine Trophy piece......Rock'n'Roll.....FFS

As for Northern Soul events back then, 1985 was undoubtably a more enjoyable time scenewise than 2014....not as many pidgeon holes to segregate this wonderful diverse range of soul music that we go out to celebrate each and every week....

Enjoy what ticks your boxes, take no notice of derogatory comments from the blinkered moaners and groaners that usually fester from behind keyboards every Saturday night instead of actually experiencing what is rocking the dancefloors at a variety of clubs nationwide nowadays....

Simples.

Edited by Mace

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'kin well said!.....Jimmy Robbins - fantastic R'n'B Soul record...then people 'scraped that barrel' to be 'cutting edge'......"Put Jimmy Mack on FFS!!!"

Get me? :wink:

Len :thumbsup:

P.s - I did a couple of The Embankment Club Posters with "R'n'B stinks". on them...they went down rather well....ahem.....well Roger Banks thought they were hilarious......as did I.....after the death threats......

:excl:

:D

Hiya Len

RnB stinks? Did you dislike it that much when it was played on the Mod Scene? I appreciate it's a different scene, but my RnB roots have never left me

Regards

Ali Bob :)

Edited by Alison H

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I always thought the problem was that some djs just ' overdid' the R and B thang.

ie? a whole hours spot! ..and this went on for some considerable time (as in years) Surely the point if your spinning at a SOUL night is to play a broad spectrum of sounds in your allocated hours spot. This overkill is really what stopped me going to Northern dos, I just got sick of it, and I'm Blues fan as well!

Edited by Jim Elliott

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Much prefer R&B myself simply as I've simply never been interested in the whole precious northen soul "scene" of obsessions with Wigan Casino and other all night venues from the 70's & 80's. It's a mod thing for me and the best events that I've attended cater for all, for example Go Go Children in Bristol.

 

However, I did have a laugh at an event last year where some chap thought it would be good to turn up in a t shirt that bore the somewhat pathetic legend that he'd rather drink his own piss than dance to R&B, but was spotted later throwing some shapes to Dorothy Williams Watchdog - I.R.O.N.Y.

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....."If it ain't Soul, it ain't Soul".......

All the best,

Len :thumbsup:

P.s - Meant in the nicest possible way :wink:

Lest we forget that Lens first promotion was actually a 'Rhythm & Soul Club' where R&B was as evident in playlists as Northern....(I know this as I DJed at what I believe to be the first one)

Actually, this isn't 100% true, it was entitled a 'RYTHM & Soul Club' on the banner hung behind the decks.....I'm guessing that whilst Len might profess to maturing more towards Soul after his teens, it was probably moreso due to the fact that he could spell SOUL a lot easier than RHYTHM......

;o)

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I would take note of Mace, he knows his onions from being out there every week  over the years and dealing in records of various description......

 

Most of these topics are pissing in the wind again and again again.... Before you can vote yes or no you need to define all these tunes, impossible, the same tune can be in a RnB, northern, Rock< roll, Rhythm and soul,rockin blues, popcorn cross under( :huh:  :huh: ) catagory depending on the views/ ears of many different folk....

 

All these pigeon holes , its a funny old game.....

 

I was told this last week that i should not play Buddy Ace " screaming please" at a northern event....  I am guessing that he had it in his pigeon hole as RnB, I did not ask, not worth wasting play time with creatures..... 

 

Some of it can have a RnB, blues, psych, country, rock, pop, funk, gospel, disco edge to it.... But its all soul to me....

 

 

But i do get the jist of this topic done to death a thousand times with the likes of J T Parker, Charles Sheffield, Joe Tex and many more tunes getting big plays a great reactions in many established " northern events "........ Some would say " that aint northern, its RnB shite while they flop around the floor to some white pop shite they call soul :lol:  :lol: ..

 

"Its a funny old game ".....

 

So many flavours out there in the sweetshop, a million sweetshops in events....   Go suck on a few things and see what you like...

 

 

ps... Tin hat on now, i can see some pigeon fanciers lurking....

Edited by little-stevie

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Lest we forget....

 

There is no such thing as Northern Soul, it's a term we invented...

 

If it sounds "right", it's in, be it R&b, Crossover, Modern, Popcorn or whatever the latest flavour of the month is.

Edited by Citizen P

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Hi all. would you define R&B the following?

 

Lou Lawton "Knick Knack Paddy Wack"

Betty O'Brian "She'll Be Gone"

Irma & The Fascinators "Lost Love"

Larry Davies "I've Been Hurt So Many Times"

 

Andrea

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The best thing about RnB is it isnt Latin!!!

 

:wicked:

 

BTW I love Charles Sheffield. It passes the most stringent of criteria needed to be a Northern Soul record. If I think it is, then it is.  :thumbsup:

 

I was never saying it wasn't a NS record, I was saying it's roots are nearer to rock and roll than they are to soul, seeing as 'soul' hadn't even been born when CS came out.

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I was never saying it wasn't a NS record, I was saying it's roots are nearer to rock and roll than they are to soul, seeing as 'soul' hadn't even been born when CS came out.

 

We are talking at cross purposes i think Pete. You talk about Soul. When has that been a factor in what is a Northern Soul record? :D  

Just beiong a bit silly. But there are other records that get played that IMO sound like rock n roll. To me Shefield is as good an RnB track as you can find.

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My last all-nighter was 1985, so forgive me if I'm off the mark here, R&B to me was cool, not Northern Soul dance music, but cool. Why is there this hatred towards R&B now ? I've seen photo's of people wearing anti-R&B T-shirts ? Is it something todays DJ's are pushing, that offends people. A couple of examples I could hear or look up on YTube, would help me understand.

Say you were at Prestatyn,this week-end,in the main room and the D.J.put on Little Queenie by Chuck Berry instead of Bill Black,s Combo or You,re Gonna Wreck My Life by Howlin, Wolf,not Guitar Ray in,say,the Redemption room.I suspect some of the reactions might help you in your quest!!! As far as I,m concerned it,s all variations on a theme.

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I think it's fair enough to define the parameters of what you want to play, or hear, at a night.

It's fair to say that 'northern soul' describes tracks that share something that is recognisable, just as the term 'r&b' does, and that this includes some tracks from the later, more soul-influenced end of tte r&b genre.

I think it is fair that only tracks that fit into the 'northern soul' genre, as recognised by fans of the genre, get played at a northern soul night and the complaint some have is that some tracks - I'm guessing the earlier or more jive tempo r&b tracks - do not sit within northern soul parameters.

which is fair enough, a line has to be drawn somewhere, even at the most open minded of nights.

The only argument is about where it is reasonable to draw the line.

not only the northern scene has these parameters, r&b nights would too - being happy to include, say, the one constellations track on gemini, at the more soul-influenced end of r&b, but almost definitely not the other constellations 45 on gemini.

I would put money that i am the most musically open minded person on here in terms of genre but at our night, we still had very definite parameters and didn't play 70s music for example, even though I love it, to give the night a clear musical identity and consistancy, and this is important.

Even within our parameters, like those of the northern scene, we had a ridiculous range to chose from, so it's absurd to say we were limiting ourselves.

I have actually experienced djing at a strict r&b night and hearing a complaint that it wasn't the right type of r&b being played! which shows that people can set their parameters too narrow, or maybe it just shows that some people are complete cocks.

the only debate to have really it whether the traditional parameters of northern soul are still relevant. As people have said - maybe the newer generations would rather have a bit of 50s r&b or funk and less of the 60s pop northern; a choice that a lot of the EUropean clubs seem to have made long ago and are now well on with setting their own parameters.

the question is do we want to do that here, or stick to these old traditional catagories, with parameters set long ago?

I know that most of my generation and younger ones find it absolutely bizarre to love one great piece of black dance music passionately but hate another from 5 years earlier.

mik.

Edited by penny

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I would put money that i am the most musicalky open minded person on here in terms of genre...

 

While a lot of your post makes sense, that's an enormously audacious claim to make, Mik.

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While a lot of your post makes sense, that's an enormously audacious claim to make, Mik.

Sorry, didnt mean it in a competitive way at all, would have been better phrased 'I bet I am as musically open minded as anyone'

Cheers

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Sorry, didnt mean it in a competitive way at all, would have been better phrased 'I bet I am as musically open minded as anyone'

Cheers

 

 

Haha! No need to apologise - a bit of bravado keeps these threads interesting. Did sound a bit like a glove hitting the floor though :lol:

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I think it's fair enough to define the parameters of what you want to play, or hear, at a night.

It's fair to say that 'northern soul' describes tracks that share something that is recognisable, just as the term 'r&b' does, and that this includes some tracks from the later, more soul-influenced end of tte r&b genre.

I think it is fair that only tracks that fit into the 'northern soul' genre, as recognised by fans of the genre, get played at a northern soul night and the complaint some have is that some tracks - I'm guessing the earlier or more jive tempo r&b tracks - do not sit within northern soul parameters.

which is fair enough, a line has to be drawn somewhere, even at the most open minded of nights.

The only argument is about where it is reasonable to draw the line.

 

 

This is exactly what I was trying to say but was unable to put it across as well as this.  If it sounds like Northern, it's Northern.

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Hi all. would you define R&B the following?

 

Lou Lawton "Knick Knack Paddy Wack"

Betty O'Brian "She'll Be Gone"

Irma & The Fascinators "Lost Love".....Northern.

Larry Davies "I've Been Hurt So Many Times"

 

Andrea

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I'm not a lover of so called RnB and never have been but then again I've been known to dance to so called RnB tunes and no doubt even own a few lol.  

Its the old scenario where in general you may not like a pigeon holed sub genre of "northern soul" but there will be certain tracks that do It for you but that for me is "northern soul" 

i have been subjected to some absolute rock n roll at some events where people have tried to hard to be too different.  Same applies to funk, disco etc etc etc but not the end of the world. 

GO Go in Bristol can play as a fair bit of RnB and I thought it might be a tad too much for my liking but was pleasantly suprised as it was balanced in nicely with just about everything else that was played and I danced all night each time I've been.   If you get the balance right it gives a bit of something for everyone and makes for a bloody good night.  Could I go to an RnB event ? No but it certainly has its place in this scene.  

Edited by Bearsy

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Haha! No need to apologise - a bit of bravado keeps these threads interesting. Did sound a bit like a glove hitting the floor though :lol:

Maybe you just saw it that way cos you're itching for duel?!

;-)

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Hi all. would you define R&B the following?

 

Lou Lawton "Knick Knack Paddy Wack"

Betty O'Brian "She'll Be Gone"

Irma & The Fascinators "Lost Love"

Larry Davies "I've Been Hurt So Many Times"

 

Andrea

 

Northern as anything

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Is this the usual soul-source 'it's an outrage' type hysteria, or has there been a lot of cases of rock & roll r&b being played at northern dos?

I mean, when I was out a lot I never heard much in the main rooms and I'm an r&b dj but even when I played at the 100 club the earliest thing I played was the gospel pearls...

anyone got any specific examples of inappropriate tracks that have been played?

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not only the northern scene has these parameters, r&b nights would too - being happy to include, say, the one constellations track on gemini, at the more soul-influenced end of r&b, but almost definitely not the other constellations 45 on gemini.

 

 

Can I just clarify this - are you saying The Constellations - I Didn't KNow How To is at the soulful end of R&B?

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Hi all. would you define R&B the following?

 

Lou Lawton "Knick Knack Paddy Wack"

Betty O'Brian "She'll Be Gone"

Irma & The Fascinators "Lost Love"

Larry Davies "I've Been Hurt So Many Times"

 

Andrea

Yes

Yes

No

No…………….. 

 

Thats where these discussions go pear shaped for me, everybody's definitions and perceptions are different :huh:

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Yes

Yes

No

No…………….. 

 

Thats where these discussions go pear shaped for me, everybody's definitions and perceptions are different :huh:

 

 

Larry Davis riffs on You Don't Love Me, surely...

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Yes

Yes

No

No…………….. 

 

Thats where these discussions go pear shaped for me, everybody's definitions and perceptions are different :huh:

I agree. I don't particularly like R&B (actually it's not my cup of tea at all). But I find even the first two tunes close to my tastes which doesn't happen with most R&B stuff generally... who knows why... probably for the soulful edge they have?

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Northern as anything

 

But the other three have had massive exposure/plays on the northern scene so that would make all four as northern as anything?  Maybe not your traditional northern but northern none the less.

 

 

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Yup Larry Davis is pure R&B and certainly lifts heavily off Willie Cobbs 'You don't love me'....it obviously fits the criteria required to make it acceptable to the Northern Soul Scene but this doesn't change its origin as a genre of music.

Edited by Mace

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Hi all. would you define R&B the following?

 

Lou Lawton "Knick Knack Paddy Wack"

Betty O'Brian "She'll Be Gone"

Irma & The Fascinators "Lost Love"

Larry Davies "I've Been Hurt So Many Times"

 

Andrea

Its back to the pigeon hole for Knick Knack Paddy Wack....  I call it " shite "....

 

Everytime i hear them words in the song at an event, i go into my bag and pull out a hammer and want to hurt someone.... :wicked: ..

 

Its the stuff at both ends of the so called scale that most folk can't take... That being 50s early 60s Rock n Roll  style and disco. at the other end..

 

 

 I am happy with that in the main...

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Its back to the pigeon hole for Knick Knack Paddy Wack....  I call it " shite "....

 

Everytime i hear them words in the song at an event, i go into my bag and pull out a hammer and want to hurt someone.... :wicked: ..

 

Its the stuff at both ends of the so called scale that most folk can't take... That being 50s early 60s Rock n Roll  style and disco. at the other end..

 

 

 I am happy with that in the main...

 

So being from 1966 or thereabouts, and therefore slap bang in the middle, I take it that "Inky Dinky Wang Dang Do" is just about lyrical perfection for you then Stevie :lol:

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But the other three have had massive exposure/plays on the northern scene so that would make all four as northern as anything?  Maybe not your traditional northern but northern none the less.

 

Yes but only one is out and out Northern, the others are R&B played at Northern venues.  Whats that saying, just because a sheep is born in a barn it doesn't make it a horse.  Or something like that.

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Some R&B IS verging on rock n roll I agree but I love it all and would rather hear it than some overplayed pop shite like Nine Times Out Of Ten etc.  Just listen/dance to what you like and don't stress it.

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Yes but only one is out and out Northern, the others are R&B played at Northern venues.  Whats that saying, just because a sheep is born in a barn it doesn't make it a horse.  Or something like that.

 

 

But Northern isn't a genre jet a term for a scene in the UK isn't it?  We could argue all day about specifics but to me if it is played at a Northern Venue then it's Northern.  No different to pop, soul and other genres of music being played at venues.  Leaving aside the Northern thing, what genre would you class Irma?

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But Northern isn't a genre jet a term for a scene in the UK isn't it?  We could argue all day about specifics but to me if it is played at a Northern Venue then it's Northern.  No different to pop, soul and other genres of music being played at venues.  Leaving aside the Northern thing, what genre would you class Irma?

 

Irma & F's,soul.Gritty soul that didn't sell much.

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I can't download on my phone, maybe a kind person could put a few tracks with an RnB flavour that have infected the world of " northern soul'..

 

Mickie Champion must have been one of the first - just another northern soul record in the 70's, but if it was discovered now, it would be R n B

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But Northern isn't a genre jet a term for a scene in the UK isn't it?  We could argue all day about specifics but to me if it is played at a Northern Venue then it's Northern.  No different to pop, soul and other genres of music being played at venues.  Leaving aside the Northern thing, what genre would you class Irma?

 

Northern, said so above.

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