hi all

what is the musical difference beteen the 2 mixes/versions,and how can one tell the difference with both copys (label/run out info)?

also, which mix is rarer, and does it affect the value?

thanks

Edited November 30, 201410 yr by dobber

Where are all the Detroit experts? 

 

I have the regional "hit" (charted) version.  It is by FAR the most common.  The alternate version is very rare, and should be worth more, despite being less likeable (at least to me on a personal level).  In the trail mijn has the following:   ZTSC 97699  etched, and "Bell Sound" is stamped.  There is also a small insignia stamp made from 3 letters superimposed on each other.  One is a capital "H". and one is a capital "L".  I can't make out the 3rd letter.  That insignia ts to the right of "Bell Sound: and the entire writing in the trail runs counter-clockwise - the opposite direction from that of the writing on the label.  On the other side of  the ZTSC engraving (before it) is one letter or a  couple superimposed letters scratched out and unreadable.

 

I bought this in 1964 in a record shop in Detroit. 

 

The other mix has different emphasis on the background vs. vocal, and I think the strings and horns are different takes.  I can't really remember, but I like it less, and think the "hit" radio-played version is much tighter.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by RobbK

OK like RobbK described it both have the same "original" matrix. The one he described and defined is the most common one. It is sung by Emmanuel Laskey. Even though I also have this very record, the first one I've had before getting the other one, it always bugged me how the mastering seemed "faulty". The whole backing track is on the highs only and there's no bass to give it some "body". Like you only get one channel or half of the backing track. I'm sure something went wrong at the mastering and/or the recording stage. And when I heard the "scratched out matrix" copy with full horns and b"r"ass mix, I was reassured to finally hear that great song with a good sound. Then, Emmanuel Laskey is not there anymore since it is Billy Kennedy singing instead. I love Billy Kennedy, but I really love love Emmanuel Laskey so I kept both copies...

Add...only had WDs of the more complete mix...often with the labels on the wrong sides.

Easiest way to tell with out listening to the record is, one has the" Nashville matrix "stamp and the other has the" Bell sound" stamp

OK like RobbK described it both have the same "original" matrix. The one he described and defined is the most common one. It is sung by Emmanuel Laskey. Even though I also have this very record, the first one I've had before getting the other one, it always bugged me how the mastering seemed "faulty". The whole backing track is on the highs only and there's no bass to give it some "body". Like you only get one channel or half of the backing track. I'm sure something went wrong at the mastering and/or the recording stage. And when I heard the "scratched out matrix" copy with full horns and b"r"ass mix, I was reassured to finally hear that great song with a good sound. Then, Emmanuel Laskey is not there anymore since it is Billy Kennedy singing instead. I love Billy Kennedy, but I really love love Emmanuel Laskey so I kept both copies...

 

think you're getting a bit confused, there are 2 originals of this by emanuel laskey , bell sound stamp (the one rob described)  and the rarer nashville matrix stamp,  the billy kennedy (credited to emanuel laskey)  is a 1990's pressing cut from unreleased master tapes

Just looked at mine.

 

Nashville stamp and on B 97699 scratched out and  97700 in.

 

Which one is that then ?

 

Sounds kinda like what I remember it sounded like !

 

What's difference with the other one ?

 

ROD

Just looked at mine.

Nashville stamp and on B 97699 scratched out and 97700 in.

Which one is that then ?

Sounds kinda like what I remember it sounded like !

What's difference with the other one ?

ROD

Rod...both are credited to Emauel Laskey on the label...the one you have is Emauel Laskey....the other one "Bell sound" stamped is reportedly Billy Kennedy and the vocal is slightly different also the "bell sound" stamped has a slightly different start, there is no girly backing at the start before thesis vocal comes in.

Unless you played the 2 next to each other most folk wouldn't notice as they are both great.

The "Bell sound" stamped one is twice as hard to track down as the "Nashville matrix" one.

Andy

Thanks Andy.

 

ROD

I'm lost - unless I'm reading it wrong

 

One person is saying the Nashville matrix copy is the rarer - another person is saying the Bell Sound copy is the rare one

think you're getting a bit confused, there are 2 originals of this by emanuel laskey , bell sound stamp (the one rob described)  and the rarer nashville matrix stamp,  the billy kennedy (credited to emanuel laskey)  is a 1990's pressing cut from unreleased master tapes

 

 Both are 106, Bell Sound mix tougher than Nasville Matrix mix.

 

The EL that is reputed to be Billy Kennedy is Thelma 115 (I think).

 Both are 106, Bell Sound mix tougher than Nasville Matrix mix.

 

The EL that is reputed to be Billy Kennedy is Thelma 115 (I think).

This is correct.  Thelma 115 is a bootleg of the previously unreleased Thelma recordings.  It was made in the 1990s.    My original Thelma 106 has Bell sound, and is Emanuel Laskey (Lasky).

This is really confusing me. Mine has nothing scratched out.

Don't Lead Me On. ZTSC 97700 and Bell Stamp.

What Did I Do Wrong. ZTSC 97699 and Bell stamp.

 

Is this first or second mix?

 

 

21 hours ago, Noggin said:

This is really confusing me. Mine has nothing scratched out.

Don't Lead Me On. ZTSC 97700 and Bell Stamp.

What Did I Do Wrong. ZTSC 97699 and Bell stamp.

 

Is this first or second mix?

 

 

It's not really a matter of first or second "mix" but rather of 'take'. Likely because of a mix/master mistake during the recording session provoking a confusion during the release or such kind of story. 

The first pressed copies that are more commonly found are the non-scratched out matrix and have a mix/mastering issue as there is no bass channel giving it a "brittle" thin/sharp sound but maybe to an effect of slickness... to some ears at least.

Then you have the less common scratched out matrix copies which are clearly another cut since even Emmanuel Laskey's singing differs and here the mix/master channels are clearly balanced with bass and full horns to give the tune BODY !

Finally, and I got rightfully called-off above, the unissued later released version of Billy Kennedy...

Thanks for the info 👍

21 minutes ago, Noggin said:

Thanks for the info 👍

I will ask my friend to whom I sold my ex-copy without the scratched-out matrix to bring it along next time he'll come over my place and do an mp3 of it with my now scratched-out matrix copy and post it on here so you can compare both versions from there and find out for yourself where to take it. I made my choice 

That would be great. Thanks. 

He agreed and plan to visit me in October. So, 'till then...

so...

Thin production?

 

Thick one? (I have this one)

 

 

 

 

Nope, top one one is the previously unissued one credited to Emanuel Lasky on 45 but is actually Billy Kennedy. Second YT clip is the scratched-out matrix ! My mate with the "thin" mix has too much hassle with work, wages and making ends meet, like the other half do, that he didn't find the time yet to drop by... I will keep you posted with a real recordings of both sounding better than these for a real comparison.

Mine doesn't have the scratched out matrix but,(to my ears anyway), sounds just like the second YT clip above.

5 hours ago, Noggin said:

Mine doesn't have the scratched out matrix but,(to my ears anyway), sounds just like the second YT clip above.

Mine sounds like the bottom one, but have to dig it out to check the deadwax...

This is a confusing one! 

Have a promo of the Bell Sound edition, without any scratching out and matrix ZTSC 97700. It is slightly quieter than the other edition. Not sure which came first chronologically. Labels are reversed but deadwax matrix 97700 matches the one printed on the label, albeit the label says "What Did I Do Wrong"! (I said it was confusing). 

The other is a regular mauve issue of the Nashville edition, with ZTSC 97699 both in the deadwax and on the label. The #97699 is crossed through on the flip only and replaced by 97700. 

Accordingly the deadwax Matrix numbers differ on each edition, being 97700 for "DLMOB" on the Bell Sound edition (promo in my case), and 97699 for "DLMOB" on the Nashville mastered edition. So a mastering lab identification cock up at the very minimum! 

We should rely on Robbk for what he bought and heard on radio in Detroit at the time, so can deduce that the Bell mastered edition was the one chosen for general release. 

The main differences I can hear are that the Nashville edition is a bit 'softer' sounding with certain instruments and backing vocals slightly more prominent. The Bell Sound edition is a little more trebly with a more prominent lead vocal and sharper beat - so probably more suitable for the NS scene. The greater prominence of EL's vocal was probably the reason it was ultimately chosen for release. 

Undoubtedly the Bell Sound version was scarcer at the time, but as so often is the case, a UK dealer (John Anderson I believe in this case) found and exported a few of the 'unreleased' Nashville edition. All I recall were new/mint when they landed. 

Whilst the general release was undoubtedly common in sixties, most will have been binned/wrecked a long time ago. Accordingly they are probably equally scarce now, although I like most prefer the softer/thicker sound of the Nashville edition. 

Both are brilliant of course, as is the Billy Kennedy version released under the guise of E.Laskey, mainly I guess because no singer was identified on the master tape. It would have been far more interesting and exciting to say it was by Billy Kennedy. 

Anyway, hope that helps although it could only add to the confusion! Lol. 

🤚🙂

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 20204 yr by Pep
Grammar correction

2 hours ago, Pep said:

This is a confusing one! 

Have a promo of the Bell Sound edition, without any scratching out and matrix ZTSC 97700. It is slightly quieter than the other edition. Not sure which came first chronologically. Labels are reversed but deadwax matrix 97700 matches the one printed on the label, albeit the label says "What Did I Do Wrong"! (I said it was confusing). 

The other is a regular mauve issue of the Nashville edition, with ZTSC 97699 both in the deadwax and on the label. The #97699 is crossed through on the flip only and replaced by 97700. 

Accordingly the deadwax Matrix numbers differ on each edition, being 97700 for "DLMOB" on the Bell Sound edition (promo in my case), and 97699 for "DLMOB" on the Nashville mastered edition. So a mastering lab identification cock up at the very minimum! 

We should rely on Robbk for what he bought and heard on radio in Detroit at the time, so can deduce that the Bell mastered edition was the one chosen for general release. 

The main differences I can hear are that the Nashville edition is a bit 'softer' sounding with certain instruments and backing vocals slightly more prominent. The Bell Sound edition is a little more trebly with a more prominent lead vocal and sharper beat - so probably more suitable for the NS scene. The greater prominence of EL's vocal was probably the reason it was ultimately chosen for release. 

Undoubtedly the Bell Sound version was scarcer at the time, but as so often is the case, a UK dealer (John Anderson I believe in this case) found and exported a number of copies of the 'unreleased' Nashville edition. All I recall were new/mint when they landed on these shores. 

Whilst the general release was undoubtedly common in sixties, most will have been binned/wrecked a long time ago and now pretty scarce in good condition, with the best examples being promos. 

So I'd say the Bell Sound edition is far scarcer now, despite being the one that got released and became a local hit. 

Both are brilliant of course, as is the Billy Kennedy version released under the guise of E.Laskey, mainly I guess because no singer was identified on the master tape. It would have been far more interesting and exciting to say it was by Billy Kennedy. 

Anyway, hope that helps although it could only add to the confusion! Lol. 

🤚🙂

Very confusing one indeed. There's definitely been a lot of confusion in the studio and at the passing plant while dealing with the masters indications at the time... Here's another tread on the subject; 

 

Do all the Bell Sound edition demos have the labels reversed?

Not sure. Probably not. 

 

Edited June 14, 20204 yr by Pep

23 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Very confusing one indeed. There's definitely been a lot of confusion in the studio and at the passing plant while dealing with the masters indications at the time... Here's another tread on the subject; 

 

I bought the Bell Sound version in Chicago, while it was played on WVON, when the record was out.  I didn't see the other version until some time in the 1970s, maybe after the original find of the saved stock.  I don't think that version was distributed in The Midwest during the records original run.  I suppose it's possible that that version was sent by accident to another area of The US.  The main area I never looked for records was The Deep South (mainly The ex-Confederate States.  I DID search California, The Pacific Northwest, The Mountain States, The Midwest regularly, and 2 trips to The East Coast, so i probably would have found it in those places if it had been issued there.  So, IF it had been released when the record was originally issued, it likely would have been to Southern distributors.

On 14/06/2020 at 04:51, Soul Agent said:

Do all the Bell Sound edition demos have the labels reversed?

No.  Only some.  My first one bought had them on correctly.

On 13/06/2020 at 19:56, Pep said:

This is a confusing one! 

Have a promo of the Bell Sound edition, without any scratching out and matrix ZTSC 97700. It is slightly quieter than the other edition. Not sure which came first chronologically. Labels are reversed but deadwax matrix 97700 matches the one printed on the label, albeit the label says "What Did I Do Wrong"! (I said it was confusing). 

The other is a regular mauve issue of the Nashville edition, with ZTSC 97699 both in the deadwax and on the label. The #97699 is crossed through on the flip only and replaced by 97700. 

Accordingly the deadwax Matrix numbers differ on each edition, being 97700 for "DLMOB" on the Bell Sound edition (promo in my case), and 97699 for "DLMOB" on the Nashville mastered edition. So a mastering lab identification cock up at the very minimum! ...

 

On 13/06/2020 at 19:56, Pep said:

Anyway, hope that helps although it could only add to the confusion! Lol. 

🤚🙂

Just spotted this after not long since adding the Bell Sound promo to Discogs.

My copy, which I bought in the early to mid 80s also plays the wrong sides but confusingly,  as Pep says, the matrix numbers match the labels.

Which to my mind also suggests a mastering mistake, not just the labels being on the wrong sides (As some people tend to say)

I've just added a note to the Discogs entry to try and explain this - it's not easy!

 

Anyway, more to the point, I got wondering, as not all the promo copies are 'reversed' - do any issue copies exist like this, or was it discovered at the promo stage and corrected for releases?

Mr Manship's latest guide has lots of the variants listed, but I couldn't see this one mentioned...