Hi all, this question has probably been raised before, but can anyone please tell me definitely 'why do some records have drill holes through the label' I've heard a number of theories, some more plausible than others. Your explanation would be appreciated.

cheers

59 minutes ago, Vnerd63 said:

Hi all, this question has probably been raised before, but can anyone please tell me definitely 'why do some records have drill holes through the label' I've heard a number of theories, some more plausible than others. Your explanation would be appreciated.

cheers

Try searching drill holes in records on here there is some info atb baz

Info gone now is it under another topic or summat ? Sure I just seen lots of info on this but now its gone av ad some sherbert though 

it was done to returned and deleted stock

16 minutes ago, chalky said:

it was done to returned and deleted stock

Cheers chalky hope ya good m8 ? Baz n shell

When record companies decided a particular title had no more sales potential the remaining singles would have the hole drilled in the label which meant the stock could be sold off cheap and the usual royalties wouldn't need to be paid. The hole was drilled on a pillar drill through a 25 count box of singles it was not done with any sort of hot needle. The melted blob of plastic sometimes found on the cardboard box or single was friction from the drill melting the record.

The companies would sell off the stock by the thousands to places, such as House of Sounds, that would then sell them to record stores, funfairs, department stores, market dealers, exporters, etc. As US record companies allowed distributors and one-stops to return unsold stock for full credit the hole prevented the cheap deletions getting mixed up with full price stock.

Albums had one corner cut at 45 degrees or a saw cut in the top corner , again done in 25 count boxes  and on a bandsaw.

Some large companies prefered not to have their failures flooding the shops so ground up deleted stock. Tiny companies didn't always sell off old stock, they probably chucked them away or put them in their basement, until some crazy European collector turned up offering to buy the records.

Rick

Oh!? Is that what they're for? I thought it was so you could put a chain through and wear your vinyl as a necklace or even pop through a ribbon and hang it on the Christmas tree. But I'm not going to stop now.

Thanks Rick, that is exactly what I thought. I've heard other theories but they didn't seem logical to me and the 'unsold stock' was the true explanation. 

Cheers 

Charlie.

When LPs were the primary medium for the commercial distribution of sound recordings, manufacturers would cut the corner, punch a hole, or add a notch to the spine of the jacket of unsold records returned from retailers; these "cut-outs" might then be re-sold to record retailers or other sales outlets for sale at a discounted price. 45 RPM singles records were usually drilled with a hole through the label, or stamped "C.O.". A special section of a record store devoted to such items was known as the cut-out bin or bargain bin.

There was a story that they were used for Ballast on ships and were threaded through with wire and suspended below decks and as someone who lives in a major harbour and used to get stacks of imports from the junk shops in my area I used to believe it, sadly the deletion story is true, shame has a nice touch to it.

 

Edited April 9, 20178 yr by SteveCee

I heard that too, that they were threaded with wire for storage.

Just to add a bit more to this, as far as I know the US was the only country to drill singles or cut LP covers so it was mainly done because of the sale or return system they used. I don't think the small shops could return records but for most labels that used independant distributors all unsold stock could be returned to the label. So to make sure unscrupulous companies didn't buy up deleted stock and then try to return them for full credit the records had to be marked somehow.

In the UK there was a very limited system for shops to return unsold stock. From what I remember ,in the 70s shops had a returns allowance based on their purchases in the previous few months. I suspect big shops like Woolworths had quite a big percentage allowance but it was never talked about. The records to be returned could only be sent back after the record company had approved the shops application, any titles that had been deleted couldn't be returned. The unsold stocks that the companies had eventually were sold off but not too soon after being deleted. There was a company , SP&S , that got most of the deleted stocks, who would then sell them to shops or exporters. Quite a lot of the albums ended up in other European countries as some of the titles , especially Rock, were still full price over there. There was no need to mark the records as it was impossible to buy a deleted record and then try to send it back for the full purchase price. The records returned by shops were probably binned as it would be too much trouble to sort them out.

 I'd be interested to know if anyone has any non US singles with drill holes, Canada or Jamaica maybe?

Rick

Hiya rick, slightly off topic. Always wondered why shops like woolies etc and small indipendant shops would suddenly  have titles for sale in the seventies, probably ten years after release and there they were all to buy in mint condition,  sometimes in wire baskets just stacked or in woolies on a big board/ shelf. Thought I'd ask because you were selling stuff at the time,  cheers

On the subject of returns there are a few of us who believe this mark on many early Detroit 45s is also part of that deletion return system.  The mark seems to be a DR and is in the same handwriting. there was also the gold paint splotch that prevented returned unsold stock from being mixed up  with full price stock too.

Dave 

All false i`m afraid!

They were used for Olympic javelin, archery and rifle shooting practice. The object being to throw the javelin at the record and have it land in the centre hole leaving the disk unscathed.

For the shooting the idea was to hone your skills by placing said 45s at various distances, sometimes several miles away, and the shootist would then aim at the centre hole, any shots wide of this obviously hit the record label itself, hence the hole we now call a "Drill Hole" The reason that British (UK) 45s had a very small centre hole is that we are much better shots than the Americans, lets face it, have you ever seen a "Drill Hole" in a UK 45?

Similar thing with the archers (And they ended up on the radio)

3 hours ago, Dave Moore said:

On the subject of returns there are a few of us who believe this mark on many early Detroit 45s is also part of that deletion return system.  The mark seems to be a DR and is in the same handwriting. there was also the gold paint splotch that prevented returned unsold stock from being mixed up  with full price stock too.

Dave 

Around 10 - 12 years ago I came a cross a website primarily selling books but also had some 45's - virtually all Motown related labels from the 60's. There were some nice white demos if I recall. I spoke by phone to the owner and he said that all 45's were mint condition and unplayed but had DR written on every label . I asked how he'd come by them and he said that his store used to get sales reps coming in and he got them off a guy who was selling for Motown and the sales guy only had Motown related 45's. Unfortunately he wanted silly money for them so I gave it a pass. The site disappeared quickly afterwards and further phone calls went unanswered so I assume they went under.

17 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

When record companies decided a particular title had no more sales potential the remaining singles would have the hole drilled in the label which meant the stock could be sold off cheap and the usual royalties wouldn't need to be paid. The hole was drilled on a pillar drill through a 25 count box of singles it was not done with any sort of hot needle. The melted blob of plastic sometimes found on the cardboard box or single was friction from the drill melting the record.

The companies would sell off the stock by the thousands to places, such as House of Sounds, that would then sell them to record stores, funfairs, department stores, market dealers, exporters, etc. As US record companies allowed distributors and one-stops to return unsold stock for full credit the hole prevented the cheap deletions getting mixed up with full price stock.

Albums had one corner cut at 45 degrees or a saw cut in the top corner , again done in 25 count boxes  and on a bandsaw.

Some large companies prefered not to have their failures flooding the shops so ground up deleted stock. Tiny companies didn't always sell off old stock, they probably chucked them away or put them in their basement, until some crazy European collector turned up offering to buy the records.

Rick

Spot on Rick ! I might add that small local labels would often leave a 25 count box at their local distributors on release, sale or return, so if shops asked for them (ie the record being heard on local radio) the distributor would have the stock. Most cases these records wouldn't sell, so after a set period of time, if the records hadn't been collected by the owner the distributors would have a clear out, using the drill hole as proof they hadn't been sold at full price.

Melvin Davis tells the story of "Find a quiet place" on Wheel City, a 500 pressing run.  He took the records around shops and distributors in Detroit but the record flopped locally, he says "It would have cost more in Gas than the records were worth to fetch them back !"  Hindsight is a marvellous thing !

Rob

13 hours ago, flamingemeralds said:

I heard that too, that they were threaded with wire for storage.

I got told that when I woz a kid, I believed it too !!

My understanding of the cutout system was that, unlike in the UK where the records were effectively loaned to the shop that was selling them (who then paid for those they sold and returned the rest), that the shops in the US actually bought them prior to sale - and were then paid for any unsold copies they returned.

Any records that were returned were drilled or in the case of sleeves clipped so that when they were sent out for sale as cheaper bargain bin cutouts that they couldn't be fraudulently returned to the manufacturer as 'new' to collect the full refund.

I'm sure most people heard the BS story that used to go around that they were stung using the holes for use as ship's ballast!

Dx

ABC in the USA used the 'gold spot' to mark their deletions

For the same purpose, in France, Pathé-Marconi made a triangular cut at the back of the LP sleeves

Or, it could have been caused by the lesser spotted bootleg bin weevil infestation. It lasted for ten years, with many records damaged by the vinyl eating critters.

Great dancers though.

7 hours ago, Rob Wigley said:

Spot on Rick ! I might add that small local labels would often leave a 25 count box at their local distributors on release, sale or return, so if shops asked for them (ie the record being heard on local radio) the distributor would have the stock. Most cases these records wouldn't sell, so after a set period of time, if the records hadn't been collected by the owner the distributors would have a clear out, using the drill hole as proof they hadn't been sold at full price.

Melvin Davis tells the story of "Find a quiet place" on Wheel City, a 500 pressing run.  He took the records around shops and distributors in Detroit but the record flopped locally, he says "It would have cost more in Gas than the records were worth to fetch them back !"  Hindsight is a marvellous thing !

Rob

Rob

Probably loads of others did the same as Melvin. The records left at shops would end up in the 10 cents bin waiting for RobbK to buy them.I don't think these would need to be drilled.

 The same thing happened in this country, especially when the indie labels were starting up. I remember two lads coming in to Ames Records in Stockport when I worked there who said they had just been signed up and their new single was coming out next week. They left 10 copies and would check in a week or two to see if they had sold. They did sell as the group they were in was The Smiths. The two lads were not Morrissey or Marr so must have been the other two that only Smith fans remember.

Rick

8 hours ago, DaveNPete said:

My understanding of the cutout system was that, unlike in the UK where the records were effectively loaned to the shop that was selling them (who then paid for those they sold and returned the rest), that the shops in the US actually bought them prior to sale - and were then paid for any unsold copies they returned.

Any records that were returned were drilled or in the case of sleeves clipped so that when they were sent out for sale as cheaper bargain bin cutouts that they couldn't be fraudulently returned to the manufacturer as 'new' to collect the full refund.

I'm sure most people heard the BS story that used to go around that they were stung using the holes for use as ship's ballast!

Dx

Dave

I don't think I'd agree about your view on the UK sales system. I never signed the cheques or worked in accounts but the various record shops I worked in paid for all the records they received and could only return a percentage or certain titles that the record companies did a special promotion on. Most of the TV advertised LPs had a very generous sale or return allowance. There was a cut-off date for returns so head office would ask for stock to be sent back fairly soon after the record dropped down the charts. These returns never got sold as deletions as the sleeves could be a bit tatty. The stock that sometimes got sold cheap would be the records that had never been sent out.

 

Record shops in the US ranged from small local shops to national chains so ,as in the UK, return arrangements varied. Small shops often used a One Stop distributor to buy all their stock, I can't see them being able to send stock back. I don't think shops were paid for returns ,more likely they got credit against future purchases.Record companies didn't like paying anyone. We could do with a US shop owner from the sixties putting us straight.

Another thing I remember from the 70s is when there was a cardboard box that had a drill hole or cut corner and the contents had the drill hole or cut in exactly the same place, the box always had one title in it and they never had any price stickers on. On the other hand boxes of mixed titles never had the same hole or cut as the contents. From this it seems likely that drill holes and cuts were done to stock that had never been to shops but only got as far as a distributor and was still in sealed boxes. I can't see record companies having jumbled up shop returns sorted out into the same titles, boxing them up, drilling or cutting and then selling for a few cents. It wouldn't be economical. Shop returns were probably written off, junked or sold off after a couple of years as job lots.

Rick

 

20 hours ago, Pga1 said:

Hiya rick, slightly off topic. Always wondered why shops like woolies etc and small indipendant shops would suddenly  have titles for sale in the seventies, probably ten years after release and there they were all to buy in mint condition,  sometimes in wire baskets just stacked or in woolies on a big board/ shelf. Thought I'd ask because you were selling stuff at the time,  cheers

Can't give a definite answer on this but I was sometimes surprised when the deletions wholesaler SP&S Records had some titles that were, like you said, quite old . I think the explanation was that some LPs sold steadily at full price for many years so remained in their catalogue. Eventually sales would decline and the record company deleted the record and sold the remaining stock to SP&S. There was once a load of Motown titles that got deleted and ended up in Woolies but I think this was when Motown changed from EMI to BMG/RCA.

Rick

German record labels had a roughly similar return policy for 45s in the 60s and early 70s. Unsold records were returned to the labels/distributors. They then stamped sleeve (and sometimes record) with a circled R ("Remittend", returned good) and sold the record again to specialist shops etc.

I've never seen "R" stamped records from the 50s or the late 70s onwards so I guess they either didn't accept returns or had a different system.