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Ivories Wand '67 / 03 BUT Ivorys Despenza '66 > '68 ?


Tlscapital
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In my manic manner to set the record straight to ease my little worried mind as to what, where and if possible why I now try to set the chronology of this sole recording little wonder band with their 'please stay' iconic (overplayed) sound.

Looking closer at it I now see that no one on Discogs or 45Cat came with factual hints like radio charts or proofs like with new releases reviews for the Despenza release to attest as I'd have thought it to be prior to the Wand. Anyone knows ?

The Despenza releases do get a 1966 release date on 45Cat and 1968 on Discogs for 'ballpark's' sake. Then on 45Cat there's this ; Overcome Pub. Co. Inc. (BMI), 627 East 33rd Street, Chicago (1968 listing - imprint owned by Jerry Butler).

Although the Wand is evidently dating March or April 1967 shows the Overcome Music / Flomar Music co-publishing rights. Could the Overcome publishing rights have been bought later in 1968 by Jerry Butler to free it from the Wand chain ?

Then could the March 1967 Wand release actually be the first release ? With a deal that went sour after poor "promotion" with Wand's Commercial and Artistry Directors then rather lost in the shuffle with few co-Produced ventures commercial failures...

Desmi Co-Production being one with this very Wand release. Then once liberated by legal bound from their contract Barry Despenza finally released it trice on his Despenza label. Or was one of the Despenza release actually predating the Wand ?

FWIW the Traits 'some day some way' on Contact dating from November 1966 at least according to one radio chart.also had few re-releases with continuous growing demand likely giving Barry Despenza a necessary spotlight for commercial success.

Edited by Tlscapital
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Steve G will give you the Wand rundown ... but till he answers ........

Barry Despenza ran his 2 labels in 1966/67. He then got a contract with ABC in Chicago, working with the likes of Wally Roker & others. In 1968 he signed Tyrone Davis to a deal with ABC and cut a number of tracks on him (incl "Can I Change My Mind" -- original version). He must have known his time at ABC was coming to an end as he then took Tyrone Davis to DAKAR, got him a deal there & recut "Can I Change My Mind". The Dakar version became a big hit in Dec 68. 

I guess Despenza was out in LA with Wally Roker & Monk Higgins in 68/69 as that's when Roker & Higgins were working together for Canyon Records (Roker's label). Soul Clock was another assoc label. They cut the likes of Irma Thomas for Canyon and had also signed Rudy Love to the label a while earlier (late 68?). Rudy had been convinced to sign with Canyon by the teaming of Roker / Higgins / Despenza who were (at the time) celebrating a big hit on Tyrone Davis -- which must have been around Xmas 1968. They convinced Rudy to sign with lots of BS about how they were a 'hit team' & would get him hits -- BUT REALLY they just wanted his songs to use on other of their acts.

Roker & Higgins stayed in LA but I guess Despenza headed back to Chicago to mastermind Tyrone Davis's career. He soon re-signed the Traits, renaming them Center Stage, and cutting them for his Dispo label (Donny Hathaway working with him on their tracks). He then went on to get them a deal with RCA.

So I'd say the Ivories on Despenza (& the Traits 45) were released ahead of him signing with ABC in Dec 67.

Despenza.jpg

Edited by Roburt
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The Traits Contact 45 dating of Nov 67 would seem to fit as it may have been that release that convinced ABC to sign Despenza to work for them in Dec 67. Boba interviewed the Traits / Center Stage on his SITTING IN THE PARK slot & that interview is still up on the net ... so they probably had lots to say about Despenza. 

Edited by Roburt
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OK ,thanks for all that Roburt. Sure the recording is 1967 as even if tone of the Despenza release predates the Wand , it must have been short after (March 1967) while it was still 'HOT' climbing the charts. A bit like the Earl Harrison on ABS, then Garrison and then through there on Wand (although a flop on Wand again) all released simultaneously in a row... Now indeed if Steve G has insight on the Wand that might help a lot indeed.

Edited by Tlscapital
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1 hour ago, Roburt said:

The Traits Contact 45 dating of Nov 67 would seem to fit as it may have been that release that convinced ABC to sign Despenza to work for them in Dec 67.  

Yes exactly. That's why I quoted that fabulous Traits 45 and the 'spolight' it brought on Barry Despenza's label and potential allowing to encounter new opportunities outside of its usual local Chicagp perimeters by November 1967. Just before Tyrone's on ABC (hat's off 4 that).

And then maybe so even to cash back on the missed opportunity due to bad, poor and / or nonchalant promotion with the Wand missed target by relaunching he Ivories on Despenza. Did the Jerry Butler acquisition of the 'Overcome Publishing' allowed him to do that ?

All of that likely just before or after his fantastic job with Tyrone at ABC in December 1968 (as the Ivories buzz seem to have worked some locally seing 3 different releases) and before the launch to fame of Tyrone Davis on Willie Henderson Dakar's new label in June 1968.

Edited by Tlscapital
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4 minutes ago, Andy Rix said:

This is the only entry I can find for copyright registration

PLEASE STAY; w & m Thomas Dorsey. g Overcome Pub. Co.. Inc.; l8Jul66; EUQ'+agiS-

 

Great though. Every little factual bit is helpful at this stage. This could mean that the 'small' block fonts Despenza logo press must date some time around that time.

If we still agree that this press out of the 3 Despenza was pressed first that is. FIWIW this idea is mostly based on John Manship's theory and I didn't try to seek much into that harder yet..

Then likely by March 1967 it was picked up on Wand (9 months later ?) and then even later in 1968 it would have been repressed on the large block fonts logo and last on the 'italic' Despenza fonts logo.

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On 22/10/2023 at 00:01, Tlscapital said:

 

FWIW the Traits 'some day some way' on Contact dating from November 1967 at least according to one radio chart.also had few re-releases with continuous growing demand giving Barry Despenza a necessary spotlight with this little commercial success.

  I don't know where the Nov.1967 release date came from- "Someday, Someway' was  around in November  of 1966 ( See #27)

 

Traits.jpg

Edited by The Yank
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Oops you're right Roburt my bad. Now corrected. Thanks for that. What a lovely chart selection FWIW. truly. Full of goodies that I dearly love.

Still in the whole picture it does participates in the Barry Despenza ascension whole out of 'the darkness' and into the 'spotlight' in the Music Industry.

Edited by Tlscapital
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OK, so we would have this Despenza 470 by the Ivorys released somewhere between July 1966 up to anywhere early 1967.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_23_08.thumb.png.0cb35dc0407d97676ac3e550ebe8c5f0.png

Then came the Wand deal for national promotion and distribution but it just didn't go far there after it's release in March 1967.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_23_44.thumb.png.5f930e9228f0e815b6da72ad717e633e.png

Hypothetically came this re-releases on Despenza 12266 pressed again by Barry himself somewhere in 1968 to cash in back on the Wand biz mess up. Locally it seems to have got some action at least going by the few but worn some copies found when they are.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_24_11.thumb.png.21dd4483a6e3fa1b632633d2aebd5d2a.png 

This is all hypothetical going by the label specifications too as some Chicago labels started to get those fonts and typos by 1968. For example the Soul Majestics on Chicago Music Bag for an early example I can think off. These were used up to the early / mid 7T's.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_24_39.thumb.png.1d13f0b24a21b46e688f58e513e6da6b.png

The most 'desired' design (mine as manies anyway) but most likely last in line too. Hailing from the same pressing plant as above but seemingly a 1970 or 1971 press I believe. Matching others like the Center Stages on Dispo (Barry Despenza's too) or the Brothers of Soul 'dream' on Shock featuring those 'mixing up 'in your face' fonts and typos to very catchy effect IMO...

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_55_29.thumb.png.e19efe714033b3101e213aa4a3b9c573.pngCapturedcran2023-10-2205_20_27.thumb.png.3155d7738d342ce336ff088633559052.png

 

Edited by Tlscapital
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22 hours ago, Sebastian said:

Don't know if it adds anything, but in the 25 Feb 1967 issue of Record World it is mentioned that Pete Garris (of Garrison Records and Wand/Scepter) has "made a deal [...] for the Chicago smash, ''Please Stay''"

No but all that consolidate facts is welcome. The interesting 'inside' story if ever in there yet undisclosed if it can ever be is the fact that Earl Smith is Jerry Butler's bother in law. That I didn't know.

Jerry Butler who seemingly got hold of the Copyright by acquisition of the 'Overcome Publishing Co.' by July 18 1968. Was that a legal necessary step for a re-release on Despenza after the Wand deal ?

Edited by Tlscapital
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16 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

OK, so we would have this Despenza 470 by the Ivories released somewhere between July 1966 up to anywhere early 1967.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_23_08.thumb.png.0cb35dc0407d97676ac3e550ebe8c5f0.png

Then came the Wand deal for national promotion and distribution but it just didn't go far there after it's release in March 1967.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_23_44.thumb.png.5f930e9228f0e815b6da72ad717e633e.png

Hypothetically came this re-releases on Despenza 12266 pressed again by Barry himself somewhere in 1968 to cash in back on the Wand biz mess up. Locally it seems to have got some action at least going by the few but worn some copies found when they are.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_24_11.thumb.png.21dd4483a6e3fa1b632633d2aebd5d2a.png 

This is all hypothetical going by the label specifications too as some Chicago labels started to get those fonts and typos by 1968. For example the Soul Majestics on Chicago Music Bag for an early example I can think off. These were used up to the early / mid 7T's.

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_24_39.thumb.png.1d13f0b24a21b46e688f58e513e6da6b.png

The most 'desired' design (mine as manies anyway) but most likely last in line too. Hailing from the same pressing plant as above but seemingly a 1970 or 1971 press I believe. Matching others like the Center Stages on Dispo (Barry Despenza's too) or the Brothers of Soul 'dream' on Shock featuring those 'mixing up 'in your face' fonts and typos to very catchy effect IMO...

Capturedcran2023-10-2607_55_29.thumb.png.e19efe714033b3101e213aa4a3b9c573.pngCapturedcran2023-10-2205_20_27.thumb.png.3155d7738d342ce336ff088633559052.png

 

I got the Ivorys on the early label font/design in late 1966, so this post has the  order correct, as I also remember the later Despenza issues' designs coming in 1968 or 69, and again at the beginning of the 1970s, after its Wand run, whose issue I didn't see sold or promoted, in Chicago record shops, but only found later in thrift stores or discount store record stock dump-offs. 

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10 hours ago, Sebastian said:

Don't know if it adds anything, but in the 25 Feb 1967 issue of Record World it is mentioned that Pete Garris (of Garrison Records and Wand/Scepter) has "made a deal [...] for the Chicago smash, ''Please Stay''".

IVORIES.jpg

Garris was in charge of daily operations of both Wand, and his own, Garrison Records (a Wand subsidiary).  So, he may have signed the deal before the decision was made as to whether or not it was going to be released on Wand or Garrison.  But, I doubt that it was first slated for Garrison and later changed to Wand.  It had previously sold very well in Chicagoland, so I think they intended it for Wand from the start, to give it the best chance (promotional push) all over USA, whereas Garrison had less ability to push records outside of The Northeast, and Great Lakes Area (despite both labels being distributed by Scepter-Wand's distributors all across the nation).

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With regarding dating Despenza releases, I always thought the number "12266" was the biggest clue, December 2nd 1966, a fair few labels /pressing plants where there isnt a defined label number use the mastering date as a reference, also I think its hard to date by label layout or typeface alone, as individual plants had stock layouts they might use for many years. 

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35 minutes ago, Tony Smith said:

With regarding dating Despenza releases, I always thought the number "12266" was the biggest clue, December 2nd 1966, a fair few labels /pressing plants where there isnt a defined label number use the mastering date as a reference, also I think its hard to date by label layout or typeface alone, as individual plants had stock layouts they might use for many years. 

 

12266 is the mastering number and can be found in the run-out grooves on the so called "470" release as well.

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5 hours ago, Tony Smith said:

With regarding dating Despenza releases, I always thought the number "12266" was the biggest clue, December 2nd 1966, a fair few labels /pressing plants where there isnt a defined label number use the mastering date as a reference, also I think its hard to date by label layout or typeface alone, as individual plants had stock layouts they might use for many years. 

Thanks for bringing up the matrix / catalog numbering 'clue' Tony. Didn't see that yet... Making it worth considering that the date of the recording was indeed December the 2nd of 1966. Allowing us to believe the first Despenza release to follow shortly, to make its small buzz locally and to seal a deal with Wand thereafter in March 1967.

For pressing plants to have pre-printed labels in quantity is true only for big or major labels. Agreeing to rely only on labels to set dates can indeed be hazardous. But in this case for a small label's sole release for likely a humble run of pressings where one can clearly see that the whole credits were printed at the same time with the logo it's fine.

As for the small block supposedly the first press (confirmed by witness back then Robbk to be seen first in local record stores) similarity with other late 1966 and early 1967 small Chicago presses like Willie Cager on Contact (a Barry's Despenza label) or Marshal & Chi Lites on Daran / Daren is more than safe to assume it is from '66 / '67.

As for the two following re-releases on Despenza they are evidently coming out of the same pressing plant but were printed on different papers and feature different layouts and logos. Implying necessary different runs of releases and dates. Finally the similarities with the other late 1970 and early 1971 Chicago presses coincidence seems very unlikely.

Edited by Tlscapital
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Thanks Steve, for that clarification.  I had thought that Garrison Records was half-owned by Garris and half by one of the Scepter-Wand partners, or the Scepter Wand Firm, similar to Motown' Rich Records (half owned by Berry Gordy and the other half by Rev. James Hendrix (and was treated like a Motown subsidiary).  

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4 hours ago, Louise said:

...The Trends second 45 outing came during the following year with the Tom Dorsey penned “Gonna Have To Show You” backed with a joint composition between Tom and Earl Smith (who happened to be Jerry Butler’s brother-in-law) titled “A Night For Love.” (ABC 10817) This association would also be prevalent in another independent 45 release by a local teenage group the ‘Ivory’s’. At the time Johnny Pate had a secretary working for him by the name of Jan Despenza whose brother Barry operated three independent Chicago labels, Contact, Despenza and Dispo. A subsequent introduction would lead to, two of Tom Dorsey’s songs “Please Stay” and “I’m In A Groove” being recorded and released on the Despenza label. The co-producer on the project being the aforementioned Earl Smith, The Ivory’s did also provide some backing vocals on some Jerry Butler recording sessions before their parents pulled the plug on their burgeoning recording career feeling that it was interfering with their school work...

Well thanks a lot for all that. Fab stuffs. Will have to re-read as there's a lot there. But this bit here mostly at first at least answers my quest about the nature of involvement or relation with Jerry Butler in this 'stellar galaxy' of gifted people who all joined together managed to give us the iconic ivories sole record 'please stay' . Not yet how come or why exactly Jerry Butler became the owner of the Overcome Publishing Co. but that I'm afraid we'll never know.

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