Valtone Record Label (Detroit)

[Rick Scott]

Having 3 Records on the label  One by Clarence Jackson and two by The Fabulous Apollos I decided to have a look at the Record Listing on Discogs  to see what and how many other records they had released over the years ( total 9 And i Missing number) that being Record Number 104. 

Does anyone know if there is a release for this number or maybe owns one to share info with us as i know many people collect Detroit related Label/records.

An interesting fact on the label is that the Clarence Jackson's "If It Don't fit don't force it" Voc. &  Inst. (Valtone V 106)  A 1974 release, shares the same backing track as Andre Williams "You got it and i want it" (Ric-Tic 124 released  May 1967) for those who may not be aware.

 

Edited January 22 by Rick Scott
spelling correction

[Peter99]

2 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

Having 3 Records on the label  One by Clarence Jackson and two by The Fabulous Apollos I decided to have a look at the Record Listing on Discogs  to see what and how many other records they had released over the years ( total 9 And i Missing number) that being Record Number 104. 

Does anyone know if there is a release for this number or maybe owns one to share info with us as i know many people collect Detroit related Label/records.

An interesting fact on the label is that the Clarence Jackson's "If It Don't fit don't force it" Voc. &  Inst. (Valtone V 106)  A 1974 release, shares the same backing track as Andre Williams "You got it and i want it" (Rik-Tic 124 released  May 1967) for those who may not be aware.

 

Hi Rick

I hope you're well my friend. 

I can't answer your question, but didn't that "If it don't fit............", chart over here at the time - or was that a cover, or neither? 

Peter

 

[Rick Scott]

48 minutes ago, Peter99 said:

Hi Rick

I hope you're well my friend. 

I can't answer your question, but didn't that "If it don't fit............", chart over here at the time - or was that a cover, or neither? 

Peter

Thanks Peter Hope you are well too, in answer to your question that's a case of a record with the same title but completely different, happens a lot  

I used to play the instrumental  B side of the Clarence Jackson Single which was my preferred side whist everyone seemed to be going for the vocal, check it out on YouTube Fabulous Detroit Sound

[Tlscapital]

Valtone 101 is the only good worthwhile single on the label IMO. LOL sorry but true for me.

Now I don't have the answer as to what happened to release 104. Still from what I can read Valtone was apparently independently operated.

But could Joe L on both Valtone and Boss releases sharing the same catalog number of 103 tell a hidden story ?

Boss was related to Sport and Sir-Rah. Was Valtone also somehow related to those or was the Joe L. a one shot share deal ?

Could the simultaneous releases of the Joe L. same 45 have triggered a 'glitch' in both their catalog numbering system ?

Johny Dixon Boss 103 from February 1968, Joe L. Boss 103 from September 1968 like Valtone 103 is echoing the Appreciations Sport 111 from February 1968 and the Four Sonics Sport 111 again from May 1968 where the confusion could be explained due to different offices at work simultaneously in this Sport example.

Or could the double use of number Boss 103 somehow have them dropped Valtone 104 ? Anyway both labels seem to be prone to cataloging misfortune somehow. Or was Valtione 104 attributed to another label release related to Valtone but yet to be linked ?

LATE ADDITION ; Sport 103 (damned number ?) also had an issue in regard of the credits where the first press only got the singer credit of the flip instrumental side and the supposedly corrected pressing got the backing band credit on both sides... Again.

Edited January 19 by Tlscapital

[Solidsoul]

Valtone 105 "Some Good In Everything Bad" by The Fabulous Apollos is a great record. Using the same backing track to "The One Alone" it is a very worthwhile release! I.M.O.

Edited January 19 by Solidsoul

[Tlscapital]

10 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

Valtone 105 "Some Good In Everything Bad" by The Fabulous Apollos is a great record. Using the same backing track to "The One Alone" it is a very worthwhile release! I.M.O.

Believe me or not way before knowing the rarity or demand factor of any of their releases only 'the one alone' ever did it for me. To my great disappointment as I'd have prefer to hear other such fine tunes by the group... 

Although not bad their 6 months later following releases still do sound M.O.R. to me. Likely the involvement of Don Storball and Mike Terry changed their game enough to meet better sales but with a less sharp edge.

[Rick Scott]

17 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Likely the involvement of Don Storball and Mike Terry changed their game enough to meet better sales but with a less sharp edge.

And Don Storable Produced and sang Cool Jerk (Capitols) and Rumoured that the Funk Brothers (secretly ) provided the Backing Track

[Tlscapital]

25 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

And Don Storable Produced and sang Cool Jerk (Capitols) and Rumoured that the Funk Brothers (secretly ) provided the Backing Track

Hence Val Brown involvement as co-Producer on Andre Williams Ric-Tic's 'you got it and I want it' (using the for the first time the original backing track theme of the Fabulous Apollos 'determination') dating from May 1967 where the Funk Brothers involvement was notoriously a common thing.

So we could deduce that on Valtone 101 dating from March 1968 (? 45cat.com open source date ?) it could still be them Funk Brothers on a second lease for that brilliant backing track. But maybe not (to ears not) them anymore on Valtone 105 and on the Clarence Jackson 1974 release. 

Back on the label complicated or problematic label catalog numbering system hence that Valtone 106 (Vickie Royal) & 107 (Fabulous Apollos) numbers supposedly dating from 1968 were re-attributed to both Clarence Jackson's successive releases from 1974 & 1975...

Edited January 20 by Tlscapital

[The city never s]

Frank Brown the owner of Valtone, his son is Val. Valerie? Which is where we get the Val from. Also the label Be-Val, of Tony Daniels “I won’t cry”. There are a no of Boss labels. The one owned by Frank Brown of Valtone, is the one with the Celebrities on. The other Boss label was part of the Sport/ Sir-rah group of labels, and as far as I know no relation. But maybe they later brought the name off Frank. There was i’m sure another Boss label, again unrelated? Joey petite on?

[The city never s]

20 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Believe me or not way before knowing the rarity or demand factor of any of their releases only 'the one alone' ever did it for me. To my great disappointment as I'd have prefer to hear other such fine tunes by the group... 

Although not bad their 6 months later following releases still do sound M.O.R. to me. Likely the involvement of Don Storball and Mike Terry changed their game enough to meet better sales but with a less sharp edge.

Some good in everything bad, far better record for me than The one alone. Quality over rarity i’m afraid.

On the other FA release Joe Mathews is credited as lead vocalist. The Joe L blues record is part of the Frank Brown label setup.

[Tlscapital]

20 minutes ago, The city never s said:

Frank Brown the owner of Valtone, his son is Val. Valerie? Which is where we get the Val from. Also the label Be-Val, of Tony Daniels “I won’t cry”. There are a no of Boss labels. The one owned by Frank Brown of Valtone, is the one with the Celebrities on. The other Boss label was part of the Sport/ Sir-rah group of labels, and as far as I know no relation. But maybe they later brought the name off Frank. There was i’m sure another Boss label, again unrelated? Joey petite on?

Makes sense. I would also tell the Be-Val and Celebrities / Joe L Boss releases appart from the Sir-Rah / Sport other Detroit related label. At this stage anyway.

So the Valtone label would then succeed that short Boss operated label with Joe L. Valtone's release for what ever reason being release on both but with a Valtone catalog number.

There are few other sixties American Boss labels but the significantly better known and most prolific one is a Kentucky mid sixties focusing on local garagy bands.

Brown father & son were funny characters as they even 'borrowed' that other Kentucky Boss label logo for the second Celebrities record as this clearly shows. 

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, The city never s said:

Some good in everything bad, far better record for me than The one alone. Quality over rarity i’m afraid.

On the other FA release Joe Mathews is credited as lead vocalist. The Joe L blues record is part of the Frank Brown label setup.

Let's agree to disagree here  'the one alone' is quality with rarity unmistakably. Rawer, sharper Oh ! and much more soulful lyric wise as singing wise with vocal gimmicks echoing the Tempts. And I love those 'give it all you got' efforts. But then am only happy with my preferences and never try to convince the world on such matters unless it's a 'topic' as such... Maybe time to restart the versions pole thread from few years ago ?

Joe Matthews am a sucker for too few of his releases that I love like a LOT !I hear him the gritty shouter on 'Determination', 'ain't no use' and their last 'what's so good tou you'. The moaner in 'the one alone' maybe but in 'some good in everything bad' that is Tony Daniels. Making the connection again with the Sir-Rah / Sport / Boss label connection with the aforementioned problematic Sport 103 labelings of Tony Daniels 'how lonely'.

Edited January 20 by Tlscapital

[Rick Scott]

Wow! so many extremely knowledgeable people out there responding to my Original Post and i have learnt so much much about all the various labels and artists with connections one way or another, brilliant, please keep 'em coming as it seems there is so much more to this story than meets the eye, ' Thank You' 

[The city never s]

Frank Brown the owner of Valtone, his son is Val. Valerie? Which is where we get the Val from. Also the label Be-Val, of Tony Daniels “I won’t cry”. There are a no of Boss labels. The one owned by Frank Brown of Valtone, is the one with the Celebrities on. The other Boss label was part of the Sport/ Sir-rah group of labels, and as far as I know no relation. But maybe they later brought the name off Frank. There was i’m sure another Boss label, again unrelated? Joey petite on?

[The city never s]

Posted the one above by accident.

The Nankie  publishing on the Celebrities label shot, also appears on one of the Four Hollidays record’s on the Markie label out of Chicago, although the Four Hollidays emanated from Detroit.

Looking at the Tony Daniels on Sport, also appears as Gordon Berry and Motortown orchestra or whatever, is a take on Berry Gordy.

[The Yank]

On 20/01/2024 at 04:12, Tlscapital said:

Hence Val Brown involvement as co-Producer on Andre Williams Ric-Tic's 'you got it and I want it' (using the for the first time the original backing track theme of the Fabulous Apollos 'determination') dating from May 1967 where the Funk Brothers involvement was notoriously a common thing.

So we could deduce that on Valtone 101 dating from March 1968 (? 45cat.com open source date ?) it could still be them Funk Brothers on a second lease for that brilliant backing track. 

   The Andre Williams' 45 you mentioned came out March of 1967  (at # 40  on the WJMO survey .   The Fantastic Four (Ric-Tic #122 is at #1)

 

   Valtone #101 most likely was released in September or October of 1968 with the Fabulous Apollos listed in the "Live 25" section on this survey from October 07, 1968.

Edited January 21 by The Yank

[Robbk]

On 19/01/2024 at 08:09, Solidsoul said:

Valtone 105 "Some Good In Everything Bad" by The Fabulous Apollos is a great record. Using the same backing track to "The One Alone" it is a very worthwhile release! I.M.O.

To me, "Some Good In Everything Bad" by The Fabulous Apollos is by FAR and away the very best cut recorded and released by Valtone.  Yes, Frank brown owned Valtone.  And i agree in thinking there was no connection of his Boss records with the Sport Records' boss label, despite their both being located in Detroit during a partially overlapping period.  I'm not with my 45s now, but can't recall having seen a #104.  I'll try to remember to check that when i return to them. 

[Tlscapital]

12 hours ago, The city never s said:

Posted the one above by accident.

The Nankie  publishing on the Celebrities label shot, also appears on one of the Four Hollidays record’s on the Markie label out of Chicago, although the Four Hollidays emanated from Detroit.

Looking at the Tony Daniels on Sport, also appears as Gordon Berry and Motortown orchestra or whatever, is a take on Berry Gordy.

The Nankie publishing likely belonged to Frank Brown father and / or son Valery (-ie) of Bel-Val, Boss (the one predating the Sir-Rah, Sport related one) and Valtone records. But what Four Holidays 45 on Markie is that you're referring to ? All I've seen are Massa Pub.

Side note : I've just discovered while digging that Reggie Lamont 'how lonely' on Blue Rock would actually be Tony Daniels ! Some 2 years prior the Sport release. Under that pseudo he would have a last 45 on the Mamie's label. A small outing subsidiary of Bamboo. 

[Wheelsville1]

On 19/01/2024 at 14:51, Tlscapital said:

Valtone 101 is the only good worthwhile single on the label IMO. LOL sorry but true for me.

Now I don't have the answer as to what happened to release 104. Still from what I can read Valtone was apparently independently operated.

But could Joe L on both Valtone and Boss releases sharing the same catalog number of 103 tell a hidden story ?

Boss was related to Sport and Sir-Rah. Was Valtone also somehow related to those or was the Joe L. a one shot share deal ?

Could the simultaneous releases of the Joe L. same 45 have triggered a 'glitch' in both their catalog numbering system ?

Johny Dixon Boss 103 from February 1968, Joe L. Boss 103 from September 1968 like Valtone 103 is echoing the Appreciations Sport 111 from February 1968 and the Four Sonics Sport 111 again from May 1968 where the confusion could be explained due to different offices at work simultaneously in this Sport example.

Or could the double use of number Boss 103 somehow have them dropped Valtone 104 ? Anyway both labels seem to be prone to cataloging misfortune somehow. Or was Valtione 104 attributed to another label release related to Valtone but yet to be linked ?

LATE ADDITION ; Sport 103 (damned number ?) also had an issue in regard of the credits where the first press only got the singer credit of the flip instrumental side and the supposedly corrected pressing got the backing band credit on both sides... Again.

Totaly agree with you,whilst some good in everything bad is better produced than the one alone,it lacks balls and to me is lack lustre.

[Tlscapital]

22 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Totaly agree with you,whilst some good in everything bad is better produced than the one alone,it lacks balls and to me is lack lustre.

You mean 'better produced' as in sounding better ? Or just better balanced and mixed ?

Could the styrene (more prone to high frequencies distortions factor) be at stake here ? 

[Wheelsville1]

10 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

You mean 'better produced' as in sounding better ? Or just better balanced and mixed ?

Could the styrene (more prone to high frequencies distortions factor) be at stake here ? 

More polished,hence lacking in the rawness of the one alone.I have owned the one alone for many years but have never botherd with some good in everything bad.Rarity has nothing to do with it,it just doesn't do it for me.

[Tlscapital]

13 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

More polished,hence lacking in the rawness of the one alone.I have owned the one alone for many years but have never botherd with some good in everything bad.Rarity has nothing to do with it,it just doesn't do it for me.

Yes I got that. And we both agree as to why there. Said the same in an earlier post. While others seem to really prefer 'some good in everything bad'. That I totally respect. But I was wondering if for some it was not more to do with an accustomed 'muffled down' playback rendition of it due not only to the mix and mastering job but also to the styrene versus vinyl pressing factor. Rather than the composition and / or the singing only. 

Anyway love to have been remembered through this post that the Fab Apollos consisted of Joe Matthews and Tony Daniels. Although Tony is a really good smooth tone based singer Joe Matthews is that iconic figure that shared path with many other iconic fellow Detroit 'soul heroes'. Whose distinctive voice and few singles I couldn't live without. Hearing the lead on 'the one alone' even without knowing that before just won my heart.

[The Yank]

I'm re-posting this survey for the SS member that couldn't see the survey in my original post - 

 

Edited January 22 by The Yank

[Tlscapital]

On 21/01/2024 at 03:20, The Yank said:

   The Andre Williams' 45 you mentioned came out March of 1967  (at # 40  on the WJMO survey .   The Fantastic Four (Ric-Tic #122 is at #1)

   Valtone #101 most likely was released in September or October of 1968 with the Fabulous Apollos listed in the "Live 25" section on this survey from October 07, 1968.

Now that I can finally view and read (thank you for that) the lovely WJMO survey from October 7th 1968 I see that it's referencing 'It Ain'y No Use' Valtone #102 and not 'Determination' / 'The One Alone' Valtone #101 !

Which was bothering me and urging me to reach out to you. Because indeed Valtone #101 should predate by few months (like 45cat.com gives March 1968) all the following releases issued then in a rather short time frame.

Putting the Fabulous Apollos 'Determination' on Valtone #101 (ZTSC127076) more closer in time following Andre Williams own 'You Got It And I Want It' on Rice-Tic #124 release (ZTSC125794) sharing the same backing track theme.

Edited January 22 by Tlscapital

[Tlscapital]

FWIW logically Andre Williams release was first (not by much but still first) and enjoyed expectedly better sales. But what I ONLY see now too is that Frank Brown was actually already involved as co-producer with that dangerous rhythm. Which makes sense with what followed...

Edited January 22 by Tlscapital