Cover Ups - Do They Still Exist?

[Guest Stuart T]

So it's really an ego trip for the coverer-upper - like one-upmanship battles?

Yep, bloke thing, like who can piss the highest up the toilet wall. Which makes me worried about Janine.

[Andyf]

Your pretty much right ther Andy, the record I found which I have covered up myself I know it's shit rare and the people who have heard it don't know it.......... I am only covering it up for a giggle as I wanted a record by Princess Nini and the Snowflakes

tra lalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

So that'll be a Barry White song then

[Guest Paul]

Sure you're not Paul Money?

My bank manager calls me "Johnny Cash" (I wish)

[soulAdequateNP]

I disagree, Ian. Pat Brady once covered up a track by Wilson Pickett who is hardly a loser. The record was easily available at the time but (oddly enough) hundreds of potential buyers didn't know the real identity so they couldn't buy copies.

And Pat is hardly the only DJ to have kept the identity of a common record secret - I remember not so long back one DJ wouldn't tell me what Nicole Willis was

[Guest]

Yep, bloke thing, like who can piss the highest up the toilet wall. Which makes me worried about Janine.

As soon as we recieve that dinner invite we can see who's the best

[davidwapples]

only ever covered up one record as i dont get the chance to dj much , the title i used was just a dig at the oncoming djs who i had to cut my set short for , so that they could play pressings of pookie hudson and darrel banks

i announced the record i had just played as "dont say you've got it if you've not" by the boot brothers and got a laugh from a couple of people who were on my wavelength

[Russ Vickers]

I really don't understand this. I seem to recall reading that RS had a hissy fit when someone turned up Jon & the Wierdest (is that right anyone?). If someone does see fit to cover up a record its absolutely fair game for someone else to go out and find it. Parasitical? Creativity of others? Run that by the original artist when you make money out of playing their records and don't even give them credit. Not a pop at RS but I just find this incomprehensible.

Really do not see this as a vald argument against cover ups, as most (not all) of the artists concerned would never have received any recognition for the recording anyway & there certainly wouldnt be the interest in the disc if it hadnt been covered up on the NS scene. Why dont you ask Little Major Williams how he feels about his disc being played under cover, shouldnt imagine that he gives a poopa scoopa, but he might thank you if there are ever legal reissues that he benifits from or we find another couple of playable titiles by him & if he's still alive & kicking might come over to cleggy etc & give a live performance & receive some over due respect etc from the UK.

Cover ups get a big thumbs up from me.

Russ

Edited November 15, 2005 by Russ Vickers

[Guest ZTSC]

I suppose it was neccassary in the Mecca days whan Soussain was pressing stuff on a weekly basis , much to the irritation of Levine etc. The practice was put in place to prolong the lifespan of records thus protecting DJ's and ultimately venues.

Later on it was a marketing ploy between DJ's and dealers (ie Searling / Anderson / Koppel etc)

Still, it holds a certain "Mystique" which is unique to us and creates a talking point if nothing else.

eg: Barons of Soul =Philly = Weldon McDougal/ Styles etc = Harthon = ? (The Volcanoes ???)

Good game though innit ?

As Guy Hennigan said "When the mystique's gone the scene's f*****d

[Simsy]

I bought 2 of Carl Willinghams brilliant cover ups last week and am going to buy a few more off him shortly,reason being they are great records that need playing out now that Carl has retired.I have no intention of breaking my promise not to uncover them,cover ups have always been part of the scene and i dont see why that should change now.

Well that's reassuring to know. I for one am glad the practice still goes on. On the evidence of this thread though, albeit on a shrunken scale now.

[SteveM]

Just bought Richard Searlings new compilation cd "Music that matters to me" and in the liner notes Richard says when talking about (track 4) Fire by Crosswind "This exclusive was my 80s cover up, artist renamed as Patrick Moten! Such was the intensity of rivalry between both Djs and record importers at the time that re-titling became a necessity to aviod copyists and parasitical ploys by those who wished to feed freely off the hard work and creativity of others"

So there you have it from the man himself

BH

Didn't John Anderson do much of the hard work late 70's early eighties ? He certainly sold certain records to dj's and asked them to cover them up.

[jazzyjas]

I'm of the view that keeping the cover-up is good. I just sold a MASSIVE cover-up to somebody not to long ago and won't tell anyone what it was.

1. When you expose it, it takes the piss on the people that did the hard-earned legwork to turn it up. When you're a pioneer, there are always well-connected, more popular people ready to enjoy success off the back of your hard work. It sucks.

2. Keeps it out of Manship's guide and makes it easier for me to get another one and sell another one. When it ends up in Manship's guide, that sucks too.

3. Keeps a nice buzz going around the DJs who play it and keep it covered up.

4. Things are cooler when they're underground and only some are in-the-know.

5. All that stuff that Russ Vickers just said too.

KTF

Jas

[Simsy]

I'm of the view that keeping the cover-up is good. I just sold a MASSIVE cover-up to somebody not to long ago and won't tell anyone what it was.

1. When you expose it, it takes the piss on the people that did the hard-earned legwork to turn it up. When you're a pioneer, there are always well-connected, more popular people ready to enjoy success off the back of your hard work. It sucks.

2. Keeps it out of Manship's guide and makes it easier for me to get another one and sell another one. When it ends up in Manship's guide, that sucks too.

3. Keeps a nice buzz going around the DJs who play it and keep it covered up.

4. Things are cooler when they're underground and only some are in-the-know.

5. All that stuff that Russ Vickers just said too.

KTF

Jas

So what big sounds are there that are still covered? Somebody said Butch still has a couple, not sure about that though

[SteveM]

So what big sounds are there that are still covered? Somebody said Butch still has a couple, not sure about that though

Is Belita Woods ' Foolish Girl' still covered ? (Great record IMO)

[Tony Smith]

So what big sounds are there that are still covered? Somebody said Butch still has a couple, not sure about that though

I think you'll find it is more than a couple

[Simsy]

I think you'll find it is more than a couple

Do you know any of them?

[Tony Smith]

Do you know any of them?

Cover-up titles or real identity?,in which case I couldn't say

[Simsy]

Cover-up titles or real identity?,in which case I couldn't say

c/u titles

[Tony Smith]

c/u titles

Off the top of my head....

Gerald Sims & The Breeze "Here Comes Heartaches"

The Intentions "Here I Am"

Bobby 'Guitar' Curtis- can't remember the title!

These 3 he hasn't played for a while, I've never heard of him un-covering them or head them played by anyone else.

Mighty Lovers "Get Away"

The above mentioned Belita Woods was originally a Butch exclusive.

J.J. Jackson "Too Much Lovin'"

Masqueraders "Rainy Day",

and when Chalky wakes up I'm sure he could think of more.

[grant]

I disagree, Ian. Pat Brady once covered up a track by Wilson Pickett who is hardly a loser. The record was easily available at the time but (oddly enough) hundreds of potential buyers didn't know the real identity so they couldn't buy copies.

And don't "losers" have moral rights too? ...or is Thatcher back in power again?

Paul Mooney

Also remember Pat Brady at covering up the Ad Libs 'Johnny My Boy' as the Magnetics 'Maybe Maybe'- loved it at the time, only to discover one day (when it was still a c/up - can't remember if it was Warrington Parr Hall at the time) when I flipped over the Ad Libs 'Boy From New York City' on Jayboy that it was the Magnetics c/up!

[Dayo]

My brother in law was spinning soul in local clubs during the Wheel days. He covered up a lot of his records like Clifford Curry, Johnny Taylor, Johnny Wyatt etc. Why? Because at that time they were not yet deleted. You could pop into your local woolies and order them.... IF you knew the title and artist.

[Simsy]

My brother in law was spinning soul in local clubs during the Wheel days. He covered up a lot of his records like Clifford Curry, Johnny Taylor, Johnny Wyatt etc. Why? Because at that time they were not yet deleted. You could pop into your local woolies and order them.... IF you knew the title and artist.

Was he a rabble rouser like you?

Only joking Col Tony and Andy (amongst others) have proved that the practice of cover-ups does still go on. Although it doesn't seem to be on the same scale as the old days, or not as much hype perhaps ...

[Johnny T]

I dunno.... maybe I'm a bit gullible, but that whole Princess Diana death thing in Paris reeked of cover-up to me

[Chalky]

Donna Coleman....cover up

not any more

but there are still plenty of other cover ups

[Chalky]

Off the top of my head....

Gerald Sims & The Breeze "Here Comes Heartaches"

The Intentions "Here I Am"

Bobby 'Guitar' Curtis- can't remember the title!

These 3 he hasn't played for a while, I've never heard of him un-covering them or head them played by anyone else.

Mighty Lovers "Get Away"

The above mentioned Belita Woods was originally a Butch exclusive.

J.J. Jackson "Too Much Lovin'"

Masqueraders "Rainy Day",

and when Chalky wakes up I'm sure he could think of more.

Butch's Gerri Taylor - It's Beautiful, his Profiles cover up, Exceptionals ( I think or something like that), Martha Jean Love......Is the Rainy Day Butchs Masqueraders Tony? Can never remember the title Butch gave it

Andy Dysons Johnny Sayles, Jan Jones, few others but Andy doesn't always put a name to them and some I can' remember

Mick H, Carla Thomas...He's a newish cover up but the name he's given it escapes me

Belita Woods was discovered by Andy Dyson along with Rita & Tiaras.

Is Belita Woods ' Foolish Girl' still covered ? (Great record IMO)

Yes

[Guest Stuart T]

there certainly wouldnt be the interest in the disc if it hadnt been covered up on the NS scene.

Russ

Russ, surely covering up a record isn't the reason it becomes popular on the northern soul scene? There may be a bit of hype about a covered up record but ultimately the quality of the record has to stand by itself, covered up or not.

[Guest]

It's hype that sells lots of things that otherwise wouldn't have been successful - that's human nature for you

[Guest Stuart T]

Russ, surely covering up a record isn't the reason it becomes popular on the northern soul scene? There may be a bit of hype about a covered up record but ultimately the quality of the record has to stand by itself, covered up or not.

The rest of my point was not about whether playing a cover up was itself parasitical, I don't feel strongly about it at the end of the day, but just that the comment made by RS regarding other people playing his precious cover ups was a bit crap (IMHO).

[Guest Stuart T]

It's hype that sells lots of things that otherwise wouldn't have been successful - that's human nature for you

Thats stupidity for you. Very few hyped up records have stood the test of time just because they are hyped, have they? Think of all those records that were once popular sounds due to hype and now never get played because people accept that they were abberrations. Mickey Mouse and all that.

If anyone likes a record because it is covered up and wouldn't if it wasn't, well, I might understand if they were a callow youth, but otherwise what a sad person they'd have to be. Those records that were once covered up and have remained or become popular have done so due to their quality, not because they were once covered up.

[Guest]

But the initial excitement had been fertilised during the cover up period causing hysteria, ok, maybe not hysteria, but certainly sent waves through the collectors/listeners world. All clamouring for a piece of the action, guessing what it really was etc. Then it becomes more of an obsession to some and peters out for others.

I couldn't care a less personally, I have trouble remembering real label details let alone covered up ones Just ask Lindsay

Edited November 16, 2005 by Soulgirl

[Guest Stuart T]

But the initial excitement had been fertilised during the cover up period causing hysteria, ok, maybe not hysteria, but certainly sent waves through the collectors/listeners world. All clamouring for a piece of the action, guessing what it really was etc. Then it becomes more of an obsession to some and peters out for others.

I couldn't care a less personally, I have trouble remembering real label details let alone covered up ones Just ask Lindsay

Which cover ups are you talking about?

I don't reckon many people give a monkeys about a cover up unless they actually like the record. And would they stop being excited about it because they know what it is? That'd be a bit sad. I only stop being interested in a new record that I like if I get bored of it or decide that it wasn't actually as good as I thought. I am not prejudiced in favour of a record because it has a bit of brown paper over the label. If I like it I just want to know what the record is.

[Guest]

I'm not talking about any record or any other inanimate object.. I was just offering a possible explanation to your question:

Russ, surely covering up a record isn't the reason it becomes popular on the northern soul scene?

If I like it I just want to know what the record is.

And so would I. I'm with you, not against you

[Guest Paul]

There is no justification for "covering up" a record. It's an insult to the artists / writers / producers / copyright owners and it infringes their moral rights to be identified for their work.

It's all about power, ego and greed ...and maybe something a bit deeper in some cases (something a therapist might understand).

Maybe it's just that some people have an uncontrollable urge to stamp their own identity or "ownership claim" on to something they admire???

If someone says to me: "This is one of MY records, do you like it?" I would expect that person to be an artist or a producer - not a DJ, collector or record dealer.

Paul Mooney

[Guest Paul]

Talking about therapists, can anyone recommend one?

It isn't for me, of course, it's for a "friend" who needs help.

Paul Mooney

[Guest alison]

If someone says to me: "This is one of MY records, do you like it?" I would expect that person to be an artist or a producer - not a DJ, collector or record dealer.

Paul Mooney

Pretty much how I feel about it Paul, although I have never chosen to delve to deeply into the psychological motivation behind cover ups Reminds me of schooldays, you know - that kid you used to sit next to in class, that wraps his arm around his excercise book because they assume you want to copy their work

[Guest Paul]

...Reminds me of schooldays, you know - that kid you used to sit next to in class, that wraps his arm around his excercise book because they assume you want to copy their work.

Hey Allison, that kid was ME!

But I didn't think you were trying to copy my work, I thought you were trying to steal my exercise book!

Paul Mooney

[Guest Phil Richards]

Records don't seem to be covered up anymore. I wonder if the scene has grown out of that sort of thing?

I always felt that cover-ups added to the mystique of the scene, but wondered if they were ever really necessary. If a DJ broke a big sound he or she would be known for breaking that sound and any copyist would just be a chancer.

So have they really died out? Were they ever really necessary?

I am playing a coverup at the moment The Detroit 5

[Russ Vickers]

Russ, surely covering up a record isn't the reason it becomes popular on the northern soul scene? There may be a bit of hype about a covered up record but ultimately the quality of the record has to stand by itself, covered up or not.

I think you are right mate, but I do think the mystique adds to it all.

Russ

[Guest uroffal]

I think you are right mate, but I do think the mystique adds to it all.

Russ

In a strange and quite ironic way I think the number of cover ups from the past ('80s in particular) made things more accessible for people rather than less so.

A lot of 'cheaper' records were played then - or at least records that became quite readily available once uncovered because they weren't rare but the mystique was there - as someone pointed out earlier. Most were dropped like a ton of bricks once readily available of course, but not only did it keep the scene moving forward but, for a few weeks, you had a big sound that you'd payed next to nothing for (particularly if you were lucky enough to know what it was!).

These days accessibiity is there but only from re-issues/boots/endless CD comps. but by and large stuff that's played is shit rare (or price is sky high). Even the lesser known stuff - once played - gets priced out of most people's reach.

[Simsy]

Probably warrant a new thread this, but I think I see a pattern forming here. With this thread and other recent one's, highlighting the changing face of the northern scene.

Shane's fantastic 'Introducing Soul Music to New Ears' thread highlights whats on offer for a newcomer.

I remember a time when cover-ups were common place. I also remember a time when full on hand clapping was the norm and spinning also. All of this still goes on without doubt, but I don't think with the same level of intensity as it used to.

Could it be that a big percentage of the scene's followers are a little older now, family people who may take their record buying a bit more seriously, go to a few do's (- doo's - dos) have a laff etc, but some of the scene's youthful exuberance has somewhat passed us by?

Edited November 16, 2005 by Ian Sims

[Dave Moore]

There is no justification for "covering up" a record. It's an insult to the artists / writers / producers / copyright owners and it infringes their moral rights to be identified for their work.

It's all about power, ego and greed ...and maybe something a bit deeper in some cases (something a therapist might understand).

Maybe it's just that some people have an uncontrollable urge to stamp their own identity or "ownership claim" on to something they admire???

If someone says to me: "This is one of MY records, do you like it?" I would expect that person to be an artist or a producer - not a DJ, collector or record dealer.

Paul Mooney

Sense and perpsective at last!

Regards,

Dave

https://www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[jocko]

Didn't John Anderson do much of the hard work late 70's early eighties ? He certainly sold certain records to dj's and asked them to cover them up.

Steve dont you think that Anderson did all of the work for Richard, and a lot of others in these days, certainly how I heard it, and I also agree about JA asking (think more telling!) to cover up, although I beleive he denies that now. Things like Larry Houston he was sitting on quantity when Searling playing covered up.

Does JA's habit of scoring out label addresses and numbers count as covering up also, how crap does that look now. I have some fairly common records (in fact some people would say al my records are!) that have this done to them

Cheers

Jock

[Ged Parker]

There is no justification for "covering up" a record. It's an insult to the artists / writers / producers / copyright owners and it infringes their moral rights to be identified for their work.

It's all about power, ego and greed ...and maybe something a bit deeper in some cases (something a therapist might understand).

Maybe it's just that some people have an uncontrollable urge to stamp their own identity or "ownership claim" on to something they admire???

If someone says to me: "This is one of MY records, do you like it?" I would expect that person to be an artist or a producer - not a DJ, collector or record dealer.

Paul Mooney

Finding new sounds is both costly and time consuming. We all seem to remember who was responsible for cover-ups in the past and that is precisely because they were covered up. When Butch's Masqueraders track is finally uncovered I suspect it will become firstly widley available, secondly played by lots of people, thirdly booted, fourthly overplayed by lots of people. Long before it reaches the forth stage it will have lost it's current appeal to me. If it had not been covered up at all this process would be speeded up and the much slower rate at which new things are being uncovered mean that anything that slows the process down, for me at least, has to be a good thing.

I'm not sure anyone would describe a record they play as one of "MY records" in the sense you imply, but many people can and do describe records as THEIR descoveries and why not? It is the people that spend time, effort and cash doing just that this stops the scene being just a nostalgia trip.

Am I to take it that your expectation is for the "artists / writers / producers / copyright owners" to be used to anounce records ? What happens at venues where they don't even supply a mike? How many DJ's / promotors do a PRS / PPL return with the appropriate payment to ensure royalties are paid to artists etc? What would DJ's need to be paid if they did? How much would it cost to get into your local venue then?

Your comments on "power, ego and greed" have little validity. There is no more power in having cover-ups to play and there is the money spent by 95% of serious DJ's way outstrips what they get paid so greed is well well wide of the mark. As for ego (An individual's awareness of what constitutes his or her essential nature and distinguishes him or her from all others) I would use the word reputation. This is, or at least should be, important to each and everyone of us. It is why we put DJ's names on flyers or even have names for our events. I think we all have a desire to be associated with something we admire, that is part of the human condition.

INVHO of course

[Guest]

Finding new sounds is both costly and time consuming. We all seem to remember who was responsible for cover-ups in the past and that is precisely because they were covered up. When Butch's Masqueraders track is finally uncovered I suspect it will become firstly widley available, secondly played by lots of people, thirdly booted, fourthly overplayed by lots of people. Long before it reaches the forth stage it will have lost it's current appeal to me. If it had not been covered up at all this process would be speeded up and the much slower rate at which new things are being uncovered mean that anything that slows the process down, for me at least, has to be a good thing.

I'm not sure anyone would describe a record they play as one of "MY records" in the sense you imply, but many people can and do describe records as THEIR descoveries and why not? It is the people that spend time, effort and cash doing just that this stops the scene being just a nostalgia trip.

Am I to take it that your expectation is for the "artists / writers / producers / copyright owners" to be used to anounce records ? What happens at venues where they don't even supply a mike? How many DJ's / promotors do a PRS / PPL return with the appropriate payment to ensure royalties are paid to artists etc? What would DJ's need to be paid if they did? How much would it cost to get into your local venue then?

Your comments on "power, ego and greed" have little validity. There is no more power in having cover-ups to play and there is the money spent by 95% of serious DJ's way outstrips what they get paid so greed is well well wide of the mark. As for ego (An individual's awareness of what constitutes his or her essential nature and distinguishes him or her from all others) I would use the word reputation. This is, or at least should be, important to each and everyone of us. It is why we put DJ's names on flyers or even have names for our events. I think we all have a desire to be associated with something we admire, that is part of the human condition.

INVHO of course

Well said Ged, agree with that 100% mate.

Dave G

[Chalky]

Finding new sounds is both costly and time consuming. We all seem to remember who was responsible for cover-ups in the past and that is precisely because they were covered up. When Butch's Masqueraders track is finally uncovered I suspect it will become firstly widley available, secondly played by lots of people, thirdly booted, fourthly overplayed by lots of people. Long before it reaches the forth stage it will have lost it's current appeal to me. If it had not been covered up at all this process would be speeded up and the much slower rate at which new things are being uncovered mean that anything that slows the process down, for me at least, has to be a good thing.

I'm not sure anyone would describe a record they play as one of "MY records" in the sense you imply, but many people can and do describe records as THEIR descoveries and why not? It is the people that spend time, effort and cash doing just that this stops the scene being just a nostalgia trip.

Am I to take it that your expectation is for the "artists / writers / producers / copyright owners" to be used to anounce records ? What happens at venues where they don't even supply a mike? How many DJ's / promotors do a PRS / PPL return with the appropriate payment to ensure royalties are paid to artists etc? What would DJ's need to be paid if they did? How much would it cost to get into your local venue then?

Your comments on "power, ego and greed" have little validity. There is no more power in having cover-ups to play and there is the money spent by 95% of serious DJ's way outstrips what they get paid so greed is well well wide of the mark. As for ego (An individual's awareness of what constitutes his or her essential nature and distinguishes him or her from all others) I would use the word reputation. This is, or at least should be, important to each and everyone of us. It is why we put DJ's names on flyers or even have names for our events. I think we all have a desire to be associated with something we admire, that is part of the human condition.

INVHO of course

excellent post Ged couldn't have put it better myself

[Chalky]

So it's really an ego trip for the coverer-upper - like one-upmanship battles?

Yep, bloke thing, like who can piss the highest up the toilet wall.

Don't talk b*ll*cks. If someone has taken the time and trouble to seek out undiscovered and unknown records they are quite rightly IMO entitled to a bit of exclusivity from such records. It can often be a lengthy and expensive process finding new records, records that benefit the scene to try and halt the steady decline in the scene and stop it becoming stale so the DJ should at least get some benefit from them. A record covered up, especially when a good record stimulates the scene and collectors. The mystique surrounding it gets people talking, gets collectors searching for more, gets the dance floor moving and progresses theis scene of ours.

As for the poor artist, you do talk some crap at times, if the DJ or collector hadn't gone to the trouble to find the record it would probably be never heard. The real artist will come out eventually when it's uncovered or someone finds another copy or two (if). I'm all for the artist getting due recoognition but I doubt very much the artist 't gave two hoots about dancers far away in the UK when he took his money for doing the recording in the first place. One record covered up for a while will do no harm at all, maybe even the opposite.

Cover ups always have been and probably always will be part of this scene.

[Steve Plumb]

Cover ups always have been and probably always will be part of this scene.

Have read most of this thread, I virtually agree with ALL the pros AND cons of doing it.................but Chalky sums it up with the sentence above! (i.e. Cover ups always have been and probably always will be part of this scene)

I tend to cover up stuff as a bit of fun (as well as all those other pros & cons to the practice) & to keep the lads i promote The Orwell with, guessing

I think it also says that you're at least trying to find something new and there's nowt like a well thought up name to catch the imagination! I also realise that others think you're a complete knob for doing it

A little story that sums up some of the pros & cons of the practice is ............When i listed 'Flashlight' as 'Brothers Guiding Light' in a Yarmouth program playlist I had loads and loads of people asking about it cos of the BGL name. Apart from it being a great 70's dancer, it also turned out to be quite easy to get (It might also be because i told people who it was when i was pi**ed at the same Yarmouth!). A few 'key' DJ's then picked up on it and lo and behold it got a UK release some months later under it's real name. I bet the writers, artists, producers, label owners etc couldn't have given a flying f**k about being called summat else for a while! Same goes for Little Major Williams! If he is still around and if he ever gets a legal reissue of the tune or even performs it in the UK, he won't care whether he'd been called Eric Lomax for a while!

Finally, I'm currently playing a lovely 70's dancer, supposedly by 'The Essex IV' for all the above reasons I've played it a few times at The Orwell and it seems to go down well. All i need to do now is get pi**ed and tell someone about it

I'll go and get me hard hat!

Cheers

Steve Plumb