10 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

True, some were as much as fifteen quid though, depending on which one, Dusty Wilson 'Can't do without you' and Blind Willie Johnson 'Dark was the night cold was the ground' were both fifteen quid. The ebay blurb described them as being fully licenced reissues.

Is this the Dusty

5 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Is this the Dusty

I couldn't possibly comment, for all I know that could be an original. It was that record, from memory I think the boots had Bronze coloured labels, but again I can't swear to nuffin' officer...

6 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I couldn't possibly comment, for all I know that could be an original. It was that record, from memory I think the boots had Bronze coloured labels, but again I can't swear to nuffin' officer...

I think the real one is a bronze colour but perhaps someone else can confirm please

 

Edited December 2, 20186 yr by Blackpoolsoul

37 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I think the real one is a bronze colour but perhaps someone else can confirm please

 

BOTH this issue AND the one above look EXACTLY like both the original issues.  The bronze-coloured lower one cannot be faked, as the way the label sits on the raised centre portion of the record never looks how it does on the original on modern pressings due to differences in the vinyl and the height of the rise in the centre area, and the fullness of the arc of the rim of the raised area.  The black-labeled issue above could possibly be a replica boot.  If so, it is fantastically well made.  I can't see a flaw in it.  It looks exactly like my original, in every detail.  Usually, there is less sharpness in the print, or the lines, or some lightness in the background near the print, if it was made from a photo. I don't think original fonts that don't exist anymore can be reproduced to use as a newly printed font from typesetting.  That would be too impractical.  I would guess that photographing an original is probably the only way that facsimile labels are produced.  In any case, making new fonts from scratch, to try to reproduce the old font, would likely produce a font that could be different enough to recognise/deduce that it is NOT the font that was used on the original issue.

I would bet the farm that both of these are originals, and that the boots were the black issue, which is easier to attempt to reproduce, and, I believe, was the first press run.  I believe that both press runs occurred during the initial run of sales of that release, but were pressed at 2 different plants, probably because the first was too busy, and Detroit stores were out of their first batch, and requesting refills that Bronse couldn't deliver.

13 minutes ago, RobbK said:

BOTH this issue AND the one above look EXACTLY like both the original issues.  The bronze-coloured lower one cannot be faked, as the way the label sits on the raised centre portion of the record never looks how it does on the original on modern pressings due to differences in the vinyl and the height of the rise in the centre area, and the fullness of the arc of the rim of the raised area.  The black-labeled issue above could possibly be a replica boot.  If so, it is fantastically well made.  I can't see a flaw in it.  It looks exactly like my original, in every detail.  Usually, there is less sharpness in the print, or the lines, or some lightness in the background near the print, if it was made from a photo. I don't think original fonts that don't exist anymore can be reproduced to use as a newly printed font from typesetting.  That would be too impractical.  I would guess that photographing an original is probably the only way that facsimile labels are produced.  In any case, making new fonts from scratch, to try to reproduce the old font, would likely produce a font that could be different enough to recognise/deduce that it is NOT the font that was used on the original issue.

I would bet the farm that both of these are originals, and that the boots were the black issue, which is easier to attempt to reproduce, and, I believe, was the first press run.  I believe that both press runs occurred during the initial run of sales of that release, but were pressed at 2 different plants, probably because the first was too busy, and Detroit stores were out of their first batch, and requesting refills that Bronse couldn't deliver.

 I have done some more research and Discogs have the black label as released in 2012 (as a re-issue) maybe the original black label is missing from their database

2 hours ago, RobbK said:

It MUST be.  I bought mine in 1965.

Isn't the original black press a New York press.  It also states that on 45cat.  Gold or Bronze being Detroit press?

The one in the above post looks like a recent press looking at the circles under the label.

There is also a chance that the so-called legit looking copies seen, out of sight etc are also fake.  If they are going to press fake originals they will also press fake recent issues, they do appear to be more  credible than a boot.

Edited December 2, 20186 yr by chalky

8 hours ago, chalky said:

Isn't the original black press a New York press.  It also states that on 45cat.  Gold or Bronze being Detroit press?

The one in the above post looks like a recent press looking at the circles under the label.

There is also a chance that the so-called legit looking copies seen, out of sight etc are also fake.  If they are going to press fake originals they will also press fake recent issues, they do appear to be more  credible than a boot.

Yes, the bronze-coloured one is the Detroit pressing, which l believe, was pressed at American.  Yes, the black issue's font looks like a New York font that was common in the early-to-mid '60s.  Now that you mention it, I agree that circular indentation around the centre hole of the Detroit pressing was NOT on any of American's records of that time.  So, maybe that is the boot.

The Black original Dusty Wilson has Sheldon and Audio Matrix in the runouts as below . the black one in the picture posted earlier has the now infamous circles in the label 

Edited December 3, 20186 yr by Ted Massey

2 hours ago, Ted Massey said:

The Black original Dusty Wilson has Sheldon and Audio Matrix in the runouts. the black one in the picture has the now infamous circles in the label 

So is the 2012 "re-issue" deffo a bootleg then ?

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

So is the 2012 "re-issue" deffo a bootleg then ?

I would imagine those who own the rights didn’t receive any money. Not to say something wasn’t lodged with ASCSP or whoever. It is s popular trick to say they can’t trace the owners, pay a small fee and hope the rights owner doesn’t come forward. Sort of semi legit bootleg if you like as those doing them exploiting a loop hole inter system. Others are out of copyright too. 

Edited December 3, 20186 yr by chalky

Slightly off-topic but, Claude 'Dusty' Williams of Tomangoes fame was rumoured to be another moniker for the Dusty Wilson discussed here.

Indeed when Claude Williams was brought over here by Neil Rushden he was given billing on the posters as 'Dusty Wilson of Tomangoes' and obviously was quite happy to appear under that name, both onstage and on the poster.

Much later when interviewed by Hitsville Chalky, Chalky asked him outright whether he was the very same 'Dusty' who had recorded under the name Wilson. Williams then stated categorically that he was NOT that Dusty at all and had never recorded under the Wilson name. 

My lass had quite some discussion with HC about it during one of her many Tomangoes discussions and neither could draw any conclusion either way! HC showed her the interview and as he did indeed state it wasn't him, when my lass showed him the poster he was at odds, they both were, strange indeed!

Only thing I can say is that when I first heard the 'Can't do without you' with no knowledge of the above, my first reaction was 'sounds like the voice on Tomangoes!' 

Wouldn't mind one of the Dusty Wilson 45s even if it were a legit reissue, wouldn't want a boot though, although if I'm being honest I do have a fair selection of the 'Out Of the Past' 45s that I believe were boots, I hang onto them as they were gifted to me when I first joined the scene!

Apologies for the thread drift, although it is somewhat connected.

10 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Slightly off-topic but, Claude 'Dusty' Williams of Tomangoes fame was rumoured to be another moniker for the Dusty Wilson discussed here.

Indeed when Claude Williams was brought over here by Neil Rushden he was given billing on the posters as 'Dusty Wilson of Tomangoes' and obviously was quite happy to appear under that name, both onstage and on the poster.

Much later when interviewed by Hitsville Chalky, Chalky asked him outright whether he was the very same 'Dusty' who had recorded under the name Wilson. Williams then stated categorically that he was NOT that Dusty at all and had never recorded under the Wilson name. 

My lass had quite some discussion with HC about it during one of her many Tomangoes discussions and neither could draw any conclusion either way! HC showed her the interview and as he did indeed state it wasn't him, when my lass showed him the poster he was at odds, they both were, strange indeed!

Only thing I can say is that when I first heard the 'Can't do without you' with no knowledge of the above, my first reaction was 'sounds like the voice on Tomangoes!' 

Wouldn't mind one of the Dusty Wilson 45s even if it were a legit reissue, wouldn't want a boot though, although if I'm being honest I do have a fair selection of the 'Out Of the Past' 45s that I believe were boots, I hang onto them as they were gifted to me when I first joined the scene!

Apologies for the thread drift, although it is somewhat connected.

Dusty Wilson has a very distinctive voice,I've never believed that he is the singer in the Tomangoes. 

22 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Dusty Wilson has a very distinctive voice,I've never believed that he is the singer in the Tomangoes. 

Some do say that.

Just searching the site to add the poster I mentioned to my post and saw a comment from Kev Roberts that when he interviewed Claude Williams he had stated that he WAS the same Dusty and had recorded under the name Dusty Wilson!

It is a conundrum that's how come I raised the point!

Just found it, seems that Claude Williams was quite happy about this statement when he appeared over here onstage at Soulvation's event.

It isn't something that can be argued from either side, the man has contradicted himself, it's something we are probably never going to know for sure, my opinion is though that he would've been mortified to see himself billed under the wrong name, that's all I can say about it!

Edited December 3, 20186 yr by BabyBoyAndMyLass
Added screenshot.

12 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Some do say that.

Just searching the site to add the poster I mentioned to my post and saw a comment from Kev Roberts that when he interviewed Claude Williams he had stated that he WAS the same Dusty and had recorded under the name Dusty Wilson!

It is a conundrum that's how come I raised the point!

Just found it, seems that Claude Williams was quite happy about this statement when he appeared over here onstage at Soulvation's event.

It isn't something that can be argued from either side, the man has contradicted himself, it's something we are probably never going to know for sure, my opinion is though that he would've been mortified to see himself billed under the wrong name, that's all I can say about it!

I understand what you're saying and I think it's something that will always be debated. 

I noticed all the black label versions of the song have Zebra/ Glodis as the music publishers and all the gold label versions

credit just Zebra. Is there a Gold Bronse label with the 2 publisher credits? Also- where does the version with the address on the label

fit in- is this an early pressing or a later one?

14 hours ago, the yank said:

I noticed all the black label versions of the song have Zebra/ Glodis as the music publishers and all the gold label versions

credit just Zebra. Is there a Gold Bronse label with the 2 publisher credits? Also- where does the version with the address on the label

fit in- is this an early pressing or a later one?

 

The Zebra relation may be connected here. Not sure which came first but address copy seems more likely or though both are legit

 

And would this be legal ? apparently these were made by A Rob Bailey to "give away" at Mod nights in London....is that allowed?

 

Edited December 4, 20186 yr by Blackpoolsoul

16 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Some do say that.

Just searching the site to add the poster I mentioned to my post and saw a comment from Kev Roberts that when he interviewed Claude Williams he had stated that he WAS the same Dusty and had recorded under the name Dusty Wilson!

It is a conundrum that's how come I raised the point!

Just found it, seems that Claude Williams was quite happy about this statement when he appeared over here onstage at Soulvation's event.

It isn't something that can be argued from either side, the man has contradicted himself, it's something we are probably never going to know for sure, my opinion is though that he would've been mortified to see himself billed under the wrong name, that's all I can say about it!

The Dusty Wilson on Bronze and Zebra, his name is Eddie Wilson.  

Edited December 4, 20186 yr by chalky

12 minutes ago, chalky said:

The Dusty Wilson on Bronze and Zebra, his name is Eddie Wilson.  

Same Eddie that did this ?

 

34 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Same Eddie that did this ?

 

No thats Frank Wilson. 

1 hour ago, chalky said:

No thats Frank Wilson. 

Ah ha, Thanks problem solved

4 hours ago, chalky said:

The Dusty Wilson on Bronze and Zebra, his name is Eddie Wilson.  

Dusty Wilson...

The original Slim Shady...

Will the real Slim Shady please stand up.

Black label pictured at top of page is definitely a boot. Kerning is off in songwriter credits. Compare legit black label issue later in thread.

Multiple other font inconsistencies too. Not even a good job with the type IMO.

I am married to Dusty Wilson's daughter. She was his only child (that we know of at least) and sole surviving heir. His real name is Eddie and he passed away in the 1990s.

-Claude Williams is not Dusty. I believe the Tomangoes singer's last name was Williams. (I had a conversation with Gino Washington about this once. He also said they were not the same person.)

-There have been several comps that "Can't Do Without You" has appeared on. Some semi-legit. Some not at all. She's never been contacted or compensated for their use. Same with that black label boot from a few years back. We're currently following some vague leads as to the source of these that pressing as well as trying to straighten out banked royalties (if there are any. The Detroit Cobras version of the song still gets college radio play in the US so reports of such should be on file as all US radio stations are required to pay a yearly fee to publisher BMI.)

We don't even have copies of any of his records. When Dusty and my wife's mom split, it was not on good terms. She pretty much trashed everything he left behind. My wife doesn't even have a photo of him. Just memories from when she was a child. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by Dale Merrill
Added info

6 hours ago, Dale Merrill said:

I am married to Dusty Wilson's daughter. She was his only child (that we know of at least) and sole surviving heir. His real name is Eddie and he passed away in the 1990s.

-Claude Williams is not Dusty. I believe the Tomangoes singer's last name was Williams. (I had a conversation with Gino Washington about this once. He also said they were not the same person.)

-There have been several comps that "Can't Do Without You" has appeared on. Some semi-legit. Some not at all. She's never been contacted or compensated for their use. Same with that black label boot from a few years back. We're currently following some vague leads as to the source of these that pressing as well as trying to straighten out banked royalties (if there are any. The Detroit Cobras version of the song still gets college radio play in the US so reports of such should be on file as all US radio stations are required to pay a yearly fee to publisher BMI.)

We don't even have copies of any of his records. When Dusty and my wife's mom split, it was not on good terms. She pretty much trashed everything he left behind. My wife doesn't even have a photo of him. Just memories from when she was a child. 

 

 

 

 

welcome to the site Dale and thanks for sharing the info 

good luck with the search for banked royalties

cheers

mike

8 hours ago, Dale Merrill said:

I am married to Dusty Wilson's daughter. She was his only child (that we know of at least) and sole surviving heir. His real name is Eddie and he passed away in the 1990s.

-Claude Williams is not Dusty. I believe the Tomangoes singer's last name was Williams. (I had a conversation with Gino Washington about this once. He also said they were not the same person.)

-There have been several comps that "Can't Do Without You" has appeared on. Some semi-legit. Some not at all. She's never been contacted or compensated for their use. Same with that black label boot from a few years back. We're currently following some vague leads as to the source of these that pressing as well as trying to straighten out banked royalties (if there are any. The Detroit Cobras version of the song still gets college radio play in the US so reports of such should be on file as all US radio stations are required to pay a yearly fee to publisher BMI.)

We don't even have copies of any of his records. When Dusty and my wife's mom split, it was not on good terms. She pretty much trashed everything he left behind. My wife doesn't even have a photo of him. Just memories from when she was a child. 

 

 

 

 

Hi Dale

I don't like to assume but it is possible that this is also connected

 

Yes. According to my wife, the address on that one used to be where here grandmothers house was.

25 minutes ago, Dale Merrill said:

Yes. According to my wife, the address on that one used to be where here grandmothers house was.

So may I ask what the connection was to the label and her grandmothers house, as the label has more recordings including one by a group called the Keggs and as far as I know the studio was burnt to the ground in the riots just after their recording

Is it also the same Dusty(dustin) Wilson who did " have some sympathy " on Judas and   " it's going to be a tragedy " with the corals on mutt ??

On 03/12/2018 at 16:00, the yank said:

I noticed all the black label versions of the song have Zebra/ Glodis as the music publishers and all the gold label versions

credit just Zebra. Is there a Gold Bronse label with the 2 publisher credits? Also- where does the version with the address on the label

fit in- is this an early pressing or a later one?

Hi Blackpoolsoul,

My old copy had the address label on it, but it was a sticker , its a good question you pose though.

 

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by spook

32 minutes ago, speedlimit said:

Is it also the same Dusty(dustin) Wilson who did " have some sympathy " on Judas and   " it's going to be a tragedy " with the corals on mutt ??

Yes it's the same Dusty Wilson as on mutt,this came out twice,one credited to Dusty Wilson and the Corals,the other to Dusty Wilson only.As far as the Judas release,I'm not sure. Chris. 

25 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Yes it's the same Dusty Wilson as on mutt,this came out twice,one credited to Dusty Wilson and the Corals,the other to Dusty Wilson only.As far as the Judas release,I'm not sure. Chris. 

And this recording

28 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Yes it's the same Dusty Wilson as on mutt,this came out twice,one credited to Dusty Wilson and the Corals,the other to Dusty Wilson only.As far as the Judas release,I'm not sure. Chris. 

The Judas release will need to have been a subtle name change

 

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Updated

This has now become so important to me to get some more info on Eddie for his daughter

I was adopted it took me 48 years to find my family and I managed to get a photo of my mum (who had passed away), so I know what it means.

I am not a member of https://soulfuldetroit.com/forum.php and there are many more contacts on there as well as here, who perhaps can help her and as a community we can be proud to help her and what a great result if we can (all from a discussion about a bootleg)

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Updated

12 hours ago, Dale Merrill said:

I am married to Dusty Wilson's daughter. She was his only child (that we know of at least) and sole surviving heir. His real name is Eddie and he passed away in the 1990s.

-Claude Williams is not Dusty. I believe the Tomangoes singer's last name was Williams. (I had a conversation with Gino Washington about this once. He also said they were not the same person.)

-There have been several comps that "Can't Do Without You" has appeared on. Some semi-legit. Some not at all. She's never been contacted or compensated for their use. Same with that black label boot from a few years back. We're currently following some vague leads as to the source of these that pressing as well as trying to straighten out banked royalties (if there are any. The Detroit Cobras version of the song still gets college radio play in the US so reports of such should be on file as all US radio stations are required to pay a yearly fee to publisher BMI.)

We don't even have copies of any of his records. When Dusty and my wife's mom split, it was not on good terms. She pretty much trashed everything he left behind. My wife doesn't even have a photo of him. Just memories from when she was a child. 

Thankyou so much for this valued insight Dale!

Claude Williams did indeed write the rhyme and sing the song 'I really love you' by The Tomangoes. Claude Williams did also go by the nick-name of 'Dusty', hence the confusion, this coupled with the fact that he was prepared to appear under the name of 'Dusty Wilson' as posted earlier in the thread is really the point on which my questions about this have been based. Also Claude 'Dusty' Williams has stated in interviews that he was Dusty Wilson and also that he was not! That is where this confusion has been further fuelled.

Many thanks again for your insight on this, best wishes! 

4 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

So may I ask what the connection was to the label and her grandmothers house, as the label has more recordings including one by a group called the Keggs and as far as I know the studio was burnt to the ground in the riots just after their recording

That we don't know. My wife was just a little kid when his records came out. I was under the impression that the two Orbit labels we're not the same.

The house at that address still stands. It's one of those post war bungalows. It's not too far from Fort Street which is where my wife lived as a child. She also recalls Eddie having a practice studio right in the same area.

She was about 8 years old when her folks split. She only ever saw him a time or two after that. I asked her mother a bit about Eddie but all I ever got were curses. She passed away a couple years ago.

Her birth certificate with Eddie's name on it, some memories and the year he died is the only real info we have. 

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by Dale Merrill
Added info

4 hours ago, speedlimit said:

Is it also the same Dusty(dustin) Wilson who did " have some sympathy " on Judas and   " it's going to be a tragedy " with the corals on mutt ??

I have listened to the Dustin Wilson and I cannot say whether it is Dusty (sounds different)

This is Dusty (Eddie) with the Corals you mentioned

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Typo

The Dusty on Mutt sounds the same to my ears as the one on Bronze, Judas and Zebra.  I’m only listening on ipad but tney sound the same and always assumed they were one and the same. 

Just now, chalky said:

The Dusty on Mutt sounds the same to my ears as the one on Bronze, Judas and Zebra.  I’m only listening on ipad but tney sound the same and always assumed they were one and the same. 

You're younger and better looking than me

On 04/12/2018 at 10:12, Blackpoolsoul said:

Ah ha, Thanks problem solved

So is Frank Wilson also Eddie Wilson or is it a relative? 

Ed

2 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

So is Frank Wilson also Eddie Wilson or is it a relative? 

Ed

It appears, I think, that Chalky meant that it's Frank Wilson using a different name (on Tollie) and not related in anyway to Dusty Wilson, but I am sure he will explain for you

1 minute ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

It appears, I think, that Chalky meant that it's Frank Wilson using a different name (on Tollie) and not related in anyway to Dusty Wilson, but I am sure he will explain for you

Yer but...

F Wilson writing credit E Wilson artist.

Surely Frank would have disguised both?

The plot thickens...

Ed

6 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

It appears, I think, that Chalky meant that it's Frank Wilson using a different name (on Tollie) and not related in anyway to Dusty Wilson, but I am sure he will explain for you

It is Frank Wilson using a pseudonym 

6 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Yer but...

F Wilson writing credit E Wilson artist.

Surely Frank would have disguised both?

The plot thickens...

Ed

He doesn’t have to hide his name as a writer, I don’t think he was a staff writer in 64 and if Jobete/Motown didn’t use his work then he can use it elsewhere. Why Eddie, not sure, maybe under contract as a singer at Motown then?

Edited January 17, 20196 yr by chalky

1 hour ago, chalky said:

He doesn’t have to hide his name as a writer, I don’t think he was a staff writer in 64 and if Jobete/Motown didn’t use his work then he can use it elsewhere. Why Eddie, not sure, maybe under contract as a singer at Motown then?

Ok

I guess you would know this by speaking with the late Frank/Eddie.

You learn something every day.

I had no idea this was Frank also.

 

If I would have.....I would have asked him to sing it at the LA 2004 gig.

What other labels did Frank record on around that time?

Ed

 

 

About time the tunes were here

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps we can back on to this thread now we have sorted the Business with Frank

14 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

About time the tunes were here

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps we can back on to this thread now we have sorted the Business with Frank

Well said,far to often these topics end up going off on a tangent and end up having no relevance to the original subject. Chris. 

15 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Well said,far to often these topics end up going off on a tangent and end up having no relevance to the original subject. Chris. 

Yes, glad it's returned back to topic, it was only a few sentences, but had drifted away somewhat, can I ask though that folks take a look at this and try to avoid 1) Posting more than two embedded vids in a rake and 2) Reposting rakes of vids as quotes, instructions in this link: 

Thanks lads.

So, exactly how many records that we're aware of did Dusty Wilson actually cut?

11 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Well said,far to often these topics end up going off on a tangent and end up having no relevance to the original subject. Chris. 

Wouldn’t be soul source if it didn’t go off on a tangent, but the original question was relevant given the same christian name.