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I just saw a list of some of the more recent or latest Goldmine CDs on Soul Talk and posted the following.

"Not a surprise to see the latest Goldmine include several tracks where I know the owners haven't licensed the recordings out. Most of the rest are from small obscure indies where there's little chance of the owners taking any action if they ever got to hear about it. I know they don't have master tapes on the vast majority and this will screw up a lot of other more legitimate labels future plans. But what do they care, it's just a business; who's bothered about who owns the rights."

Yes it does piss me off.

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This is parastical behaviour and it is a disgrace. As you say it smacks of zilch respect. The performers or the estates of the performers should not be ripped off like this. No-one should BUY these CDs. Surely, as consumers of the music, the Northern Soul fraternity owes a duty to the producers of the music - the artists - without whom this scene would not exist.

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This is opening up a very large can or worms. First I'd be interested to see Kev reply, but he probably won't as he doesn't tend to argue in front of an audience.

Secondly, do you honestly think that Mr Average Punter gives a damn about licensing? I think I must have bought every Northern cd ever released LEGITIMATELY and not once have I asked myself "Hmm, I wonder if that producer who died 30 years ago is getting 0.1% of a penny for this".

Surely this is why companies like ascap and bmi exist, isn't it their job to see to royalty distribution?

Now I predict that a spate of posts from outraged punters will follow saying how awful it is, but this is Soul Source and it's full of soul police, take it off the site and practically nobody would care what Goldmine are releasing.

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Pete - I don't think what Mr (or Mrs) average punter thinks or care is the point. Buyers of music assume that the normal procedure of licensing has been followed and that the entitled ( or the families of the entitled) are getting their dues.

On forums like this where you can find enthusiastic (even fanatical ) 'punters' - don't really like that word , it brings Arfer Daley to mind - there OUGHT to be outage.

This is taking bread out of the mouths of the incredibly gifted but tragically overlooked.

I don't want to do that. Does anybody on here? Do you?

Edited by Billy Freemantle

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I've got enough shit going on in my own life to worry about a dead person getting a royalty Billy. No, I don't lie awake at night thinking about it to be honest, I lie awake thinking about my situation and thousands who are worse off than me in this country, not dead or never made it shadows of the past.

Well you asked so I gave an honest answer.

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Now I predict that a spate of posts from outraged punters will follow saying how awful it is, but this is Soul Source and it's full of soul police, take it off the site and practically nobody would care what Goldmine are releasing.

link

With your sales of CDs and DVDs this dumb reaction comes as no great surprise.

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I've got enough shit going on in my own life to worry about a dead person getting a royalty Billy.  No, I don't lie awake at night thinking about it to be honest, I lie awake thinking about my situation and thousands who are worse off than me in this country, not dead or never made it shadows of the past. 

Well you asked so I gave an honest answer.

link

There's only you talking about dead people, most of the artists and many of the label owners are still alive and many benefit from a substantial royalty income. And if they were dead why shouldn't their next 0f kin get something from the great musical legacy they left behind them?

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This is opening up a very large can or worms. First I'd be interested to see Kev reply, but he probably won't as he doesn't tend to argue in front of an audience.

Secondly, do you honestly think that Mr Average Punter gives a damn about licensing?  I think I must have bought every Northern cd ever released LEGITIMATELY and not once have I asked myself "Hmm, I wonder if that producer who died 30 years ago is getting 0.1% of a penny for this".

Surely this is why companies like ascap and bmi exist, isn't it their job to see to royalty distribution? 

Now I predict that a spate of posts from outraged punters will follow saying how awful it is, but this is Soul Source and it's full of soul police, take it off the site and practically nobody would care what Goldmine are releasing.

link

can of worms ??

reads to me as someone who is involved in a legitimate cd label complaining that seems another legitimate cd label is releasing stuff that they have no rights to release

fairly simple post to me

dunno why you gone down road of soul police and such

surely if firms claim to be legitimate they should then act that way?

soul police on soul source?

yeah right

may help read this

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1038

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No, neither does that response you've just made because I had a feeling you'd be in to have a go at me as soon as the opportunity arised. Now firstly, I do not do cd's and I haven't for a long time, any I've done I've actually given away. Yes I do do the dvd's but so what, what do you expect me to, go to the tv companies and ask them if I can license a news report they showed 20 years ago which will undoubtedly have been wiped by now? I collected all those documentaries and news clips over the years so whats wrong with putting them into compilations and selling them? I haven't pirated anyone's official releases so go on, tell me where the problem is. In fact, "people like me" are doing this scene a service because if we didn't go looking for old clips around the world, nobody would get to see the artists. Can you honestly say you didn't think NCSC did a fantastic job finding those black and white clips from the 60's, any comments about them selling them for £20 apiece?

One law for one, one for another.

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can of worms ??

reads to me as someone who is involved in a legitimate cd label complaining that seems another legitimate cd lable is releasing stuff that they have no rights to  release

fairly simple post to me

dunno why you gone down road of soul police and such

surely if  firms claim to be legitimate they should then act that way?

soul police on soul source?

yeah right

may help read this

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1038

link

No that doesn't help Mike and neither does your patronising post above, I'll just hang around to have it out with Ady then I'm off.

Edited by Pete-S

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Yes I do do the dvd's but so what,  I haven't pirated anyone's official releases so go on, tell me where the problem is. 

link

Sorry someone told me you'd been selling bootlegs of the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown DVD which I thought was incredible as the whole film is about how deserving black musicians were ripped off in the 60s. If there were boots of the DVD around then they were ripped off again by the very fans who are meant to respect them. I also heard that you'd defended your actions in the usual "poor little me" manner but perhaps I got it wrong.

No reply to my points about your "dead artists" post?

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No that doesn't help Mike and neither does your patronising post above, I'll just hang around to have it out with Ady then I'm off.

link

?

do us a favour

jump in on a thread nought to do with you

then call site, bringing up old tired worn out soul police crap , what you expect

just sit here nodding me head

yeah right

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?

do us a favour

jump in on a thread nought to do with you

I thought it was an open debate?

then call site, bringing  up old tired worn out soul police crap

that is legitimate, you couldn't have opinions expressed on say KTF on here because you would be crucified - as this topic proves!

link

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I've got enough shit going on in my own life to worry about a dead person getting a royalty Billy.  No, I don't lie awake at night thinking about it to be honest, I lie awake thinking about my situation and thousands who are worse off than me in this country, not dead or never made it shadows of the past. 

Well you asked so I gave an honest answer.

link

If record companies in the re-issue business licensed the recordings then there would be no need for any of us to lie awake contemplating the difficulities of our lives. The families of the recording artistes wouldn't have to do that either - they would be getting paid instead.

As I said at the beginning this is outrageous. No lover of Soul should have anything to do with ripping off the artists and surviving families of the producers of our music.

Edited by Billy Freemantle

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yeah open debate, always has been and always will be

don't call a couple of blokes posting up their opioins crucification do you?

only reason you got dragged in is cause you posted up,

shouldnt be a problem but going by first post didnt take much brains to see where it was all gonna lead

l

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Sorry someone told me you'd been selling bootlegs of the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown DVD

No, not DVD, I got a copy of the film on vcd from the place where I get all the films before it was released and yes I did advertise that to be honest I'd never heard of it and didn't know what it was (obviously I watched it when I got it) but I thought there was no chance of it ever being shown over here, so I put it up on KTF and did about 5 copies before somebody complained so I stopped doing it.  That was months before it came out here and a year before it came out on dvd.  Can't justify it, thats what happened.  Needless to say I got more stick for refusing to do more copies than I did for having it in the first place.

which I thought was incredible as the whole film is about how deserving black musicians were ripped off in the 60s. If there were boots of the DVD around then they were ripped off again by the very fans who are meant to respect them. I also heard that you'd defended your actions in the usual "poor little me" manner but perhaps I got it wrong.

You did get it wrong. 

No reply to my points about your "dead artists" post?

No I don't understand how the royalty business works so I can't reply to it.

No response to you from any points I made about rare footage etc. 

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I haven't pirated anyone's official releases so go on, tell me where the problem is. 

link

Not what I was told Saturday night by someone who makes and sells them.....

Apparently he had to 'advise' you to stop copying them, or else....

WOOF!

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Pete - I don't think what Mr (or Mrs) average punter thinks or care is the point. Buyers of music assume that the normal procedure of licensing has been followed and that the entitled ( or the families of the entitled) are getting their dues.

On forums like this where you can find enthusiastic (even fanatical ) 'punters' - don't  really like that word , it brings Arfer Daley to mind - there OUGHT to be outage.

This is taking bread out of the mouths of the incredibly gifted but tragically overlooked.

I don't want to do that. Does anybody on here? Do you?

link

Try telling it to Bob Marleys kids or Rolan Bolan- Humans are opportunistic bastardos arnt we all! when was the last time you bought a record and sold it for more- Dont suppose you thought of giving any of the profit to who you are championing :D

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Not what I was told Saturday night by someone who makes and sells them.....

Apparently he had to 'advise' you to stop copying them, or else....

WOOF!

link

Please explain that statement - pm me if you like - I have no idea what you're on about

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Not what I was told Saturday night by someone who makes and sells them.....

Apparently he had to 'advise' you to stop copying them, or else....

WOOF!

link

Oh I know who you mean now, he rang me up and asked me if I wouldn't do them and I said yes, despite the fact he has no copyright himself, I almost responded to the 'advised' part but was trying so hard not to laugh that I didn't, it was the bit when he said he 'knew people who run the doors on the dance scene' that I thought was funny, like I know people who run the doors at the clubs in wolverhampton and my mate knows some big black guys. If you are insuating I stopped doing them because I was 'leaned on' then you're wrong, it was because I just couldn't be bothered to argue and this is despite the fact that the person in question nicked at least 6 of the clips OFF ME and I know that for a fact as they were lent to him by someone who had them off me. Shit stirrer.

Edited by Pete-S

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Try telling it to Bob Marleys kids or Rolan Bolan- Humans are opportunistic bastardos arnt we all! when was the last time you bought a record and sold it for more- Dont suppose you thought of giving any of the profit to who you are championing :thumbsup:

link

Well actually, Ernie, apart from a Four Tops LP that I swapped for a chest expander and an Atco copy of 'Competion Aint Nothing' when I was 15 or 16, I've never had any dealings in the record business as a seller.

But you are missing the point. This is about ripping off - not about making legitimate profits.

And on a lighter note (just in case anyone is interested) .. .yes, the chest expanders did work.

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Could you please name the CDS that are pirates because some of us don't know the difference and would like to ask the man in the shop why he is charging £13.99 for something like that...If you can please name them then we can get a copy and copy it ourselves and just give them away to people..I got into soul music in 81 and Kent records took a hold for me and many of my mates..When i pay good money for a kent album/cd i got quality..In the music and in the booklet or sleeve notes/packaging and they are something to keep forever..Too many thing i see now with no sleevenotes or info and still charging top dollar..

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Another point about this whole bootlegging and piracy thing. Probably the biggest CD and DVD pirater of the lot that I know of has exactly the same name as me which is a bit unfortunate seeing as he also lives in this area, but anyone who knows who I'm talking about must surely know it's not me. He has a cd/dvd stall at every event. No wonder I get more stick than I should!

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Another point about this whole bootlegging and piracy thing.  Probably the biggest CD and DVD pirater of the lot that I know of has exactly the same name as me which is a bit unfortunate seeing as he also lives in this area, but anyone who knows who I'm talking about must surely know it's not me.  He has a cd/dvd stall at every event.  No wonder I get more stick than I should!

link

That's 3 Pete Smiths I know on the scene then, (And all with strong opinions it seems :D ).

Why don't you change your name deed-poll style, to something unassuming like 'Disco Stu' or 'Larry Levan'.

That way, you wouldn't get any flak :thumbsup:

Just showing my caring side Pete, no offence :lol:

Jamie :thumbsup:

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Well actually, Ernie, apart from a Four Tops LP that I swapped for a chest expander and an Atco copy of 'Competion Aint Nothing' when I was 15 or 16, I've never had any dealings in the record business as a seller.

But you are missing the point. This is about ripping off -  not about making legitimate profits.

And on a lighter note  (just in case anyone is interested) .. .yes, the chest expanders did work.

link

Are you asking me to believe you have never sold a record for a profit in your life? I never new Competition came out on Atco thought it was Action uk and Backbeat for US & Canada.

Keep using the chest expander it might lead to other parts! :thumbsup:

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I think thats a good idea actually.

Also the more I think about it, the more it would explain certain comments and phone calls I get on issues which I know nothing about. Especially when they tell me they've seen me selling pirate CD's in Hull or somewhere when it's well known I don't go out anywhere.

It may also explain the scenario described by Pikeys Dog earlier in this post.

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There's no way they would know who was who if people were just being spoken about though.

Even Pete Smith aka Pete The Pirate would asmit he pushes it a bit...all recent dvd releases, hundreds of bootleg cd's, and it's no secret, it's blatant selling at gigs.

First time I met him he had copies of a 4 volume Stafford story set that I made up for KTF members, in exactly the same artwork as I made up...and then I saw a well known DJ selling the same cd's in his box, I said I've got no claim on the recordings but you could have at least changed the artwork and he told me to f*** off, so there you have it...

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There's no way they would know who was who if people were just being spoken about though.

Even Pete Smith aka Pete The Pirate would asmit he pushes it a bit...all recent dvd releases, hundreds of bootleg cd's, and it's no secret, it's blatant selling at gigs. 

First time I met him he had copies of a 4 volume Stafford story set that I made up for KTF members, in exactly the same artwork as I made up...and then I saw a well known DJ selling the same cd's in his box, I said I've got no claim on the recordings but you could have at least changed the artwork and he told me to f*** off, so there you have it...

link

I won't comment on that Pete because i will be thrown off the site if i really say what i think...Some folk have no imagination at all and will steal ideas from others all the time...Gonna go and have a drink because i need to calm down....Its not gonna be easy to get answers from some because they all have some shit that they know could hit the fan...They must realise that in this little community most get to hear whats going on...

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I won't comment on that Pete because i will be thrown off the site if i really say what i think...Some folk have no imagination at all and will steal ideas from others all the time...Gonna go and have a drink because i need to calm down....Its not gonna be easy to get answers from some because they all have some shit that they know could hit the fan...They must realise that in this little community most get to hear whats going on...

link

That's a very enigmatic post mate, what's up? Who would throw you off?

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Are you asking me to believe you have never sold a record for a profit in your life? I never new Competition came out on Atco thought it was Action uk and Backbeat for US & Canada.

Keep using the chest expander it might lead to other parts!  :thumbsup:

link

Yes, you are right, Ernie. It was Action and not Atco. I actually lost that 45 along with all the other 45s I had when I lived in bedsit land and switched to LPs of West Coast that were more convenient for skinning up on.

No, it's true. I have never sold music...only bought it and lost collections of this that or the other in moves.

I live overseas now and nearly lost a large collection of Blues, Jazz and Soul LPs to bailiffs collecting unpaid poll tax in my absence. The buggers could have taken the chest expanders instead.

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I think thats a good idea actually.

Also the more I think about it, the more it would explain certain comments and phone calls I get on issues which I know nothing about.  Especially when they tell me they've seen me selling pirate CD's in Hull or somewhere when it's well known I don't go out anywhere.

It may also explain the scenario described by Pikeys Dog earlier in this post.

link

It was the other Pete Smith, aka Pete The Pirate.

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It was the other Pete Smith, aka Pete The Pirate.

link

Dave

THANK YOU FOR THAT :thumbsup:

Now maybe someone will believe me!

I'm no angel but I'm not responsible for 90% of the things attributed to me.

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Please help me get a little bit of perspective here.....

what percentage of the £13.99 re-issue cd actually goes to the artist?

Say there were 20 different artists on the n/soul cd & the cd was an 'average' seller.

In dollars what might that artist expect to receive?

I'm not joining in the argument I'm just curious.

Just read through the above thread again, I think Pete S may well have been libeled.

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In dollars what might that artist expect to receive?

I'm not joining in the argument I'm just curious..

link

I don't know percentages, it varies from contract to contract, I know some of the original artists we have contracted get anywhere from several hundred dollars to several thousand dollars.

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There's and old saying here if you got an elephant then some smart bootlegging bastard has a box to put it in, many piss in the same pot, so Ady please bring these bastards down, i have something here which may be of interest via a Coventry connection that a loud voice on here basically has f*** all to say, so don't push me please...pay your bills for bootlegs or shut the f*** up...

regards - mark bicknell,

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There's and old saying here if you got an elephant then some smart bootlegging bastard has a box to put it in, many piss in the same pot, so Ady please bring these bastards down, i have something here which may be of interest via a Coventry connection that a loud voice on here  basically has f*** all to say, so don't push me please...pay your bills for bootlegs or shut the f*** up...

regards - mark bicknell,

link

Yeah and while you're at it, don't give your mates my dvd's to bootleg there's a good lad.

Amazing all these whiter-than-white big mouths all have skeletons in their closets

Edited by Pete-S

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Out of interest, returning to the allegations Ady made in the first post, have these been reported to the BPI or RIAA for investigation?

Because it strikes me that this - and some of the other things mentioned in this thread - are a much larger threat to legitimate revenue than the poor quality mp3s circulated via Krapzaa etc. which seem to be their main target at the mo

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Yeah and while you're at it, don't give your mates my dvd's to bootleg there's a good lad.

Amazing all these whiter-than-white big mouths all have skeletons in their closets

link

Not specifically talking about Mark B, but have to say, Pete has a valid point here. It doesn't make it right, but let's keep it real folks eh?

How many people allow Bootleg CDs/Pressing sales in their venues?

How many turn a blind eye to the bootleggers cos they also have a decent monthly sales list?

"In the snakepit" - What on earth is all that about? The Funks were playing UK and some guys were STILL peddling this illegal stuff at the same time! (And this after a whole film dedicated to the unsung heroes of the label who were "ripped off" the first time round!!)

Which promoters are adamant that ALL their DJs play the "real Mcoy".

( I know there are some), but the majority?

The longer this "corporate image" of the bootleggers is allowed to go on then the more the "mainstream" punters will give them legitimacy. :angry:

Like I say, it don't make it right - but let's be honest with each other about the whole issue.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck- then the odds are it's probably a duck!

Regards,

Dave

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Going back to the main thrust of Ady's argument ie. proper remuneration for the people that created the music, has anyone considered setting up a legalised mp3 download site for rare soul?

If I want to buy a std compilation CD, its going to cost say £12.99 from a shop. Now there's probably only 3-4 tracks I'm really interested in. I'm not interested in the fillers & i'm not interested in the packaging. Of the £12.99 I guess £2 will be going to the govt. in VAT and the shop will probably make £6. I assume the artist actually gets paid after the record label & distributors have had their share.

Apple & Napster seem to be doing fairly good business knocking out mp3 singles for around 79p. If the same could be done for rare soul then the punter (thats most of us) would be happy 'cos he's only paying for what he wants & the artists would be happy because they would get a higher proportion of the value of the sale. The artists would be better off.

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I just saw a list of some of the more recent or latest Goldmine CDs on Soul Talk and posted the following.

"Not a surprise to see the latest Goldmine include several tracks where I know the owners haven't licensed the recordings out. Most of the rest are from small obscure indies where there's little chance of the owners taking any action if they ever got to hear about it. I know they don't have master tapes on the vast majority and this will screw up a lot of other more legitimate labels future plans. But what do they care, it's just a business; who's bothered about who owns the rights."

Yes it does piss me off.

link

then stop bleating mr.self righteous and speak with goldmine!

oh and by the way...all v.a.t and tax properly accounted for at all your gigs over the past 20 years?

You have Tim Brown's number...call him.

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It seems to be a bit of a sport of here to take a dig at Kev. I don't know Kev or Ady but my view on it all is as follows:

If people have an issue with the way Goldmine and/or Kev do business then there are proper legal avenues of redress which can be followed. Starting threads on internet forums IMHO just seems to spilt people into two camps and start a thread of ill informed comment. Let's face it, no one on here other than Ady, Kev, and Tim Brown is party to the facts on this there I can't see how any us can really pass a fully informed comment.

If, as people seem to infer, Goldmine don't play fair and don't do business in the correct way then let's see the proof but I refuse to express an opinion until someone shows me the facts. Until they do, it just comes over like scene tittle tattle and politics - which doesn't do any of us any good.

Hammy

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then stop bleating  mr.self righteous and speak with goldmine!

oh and by the way...all v.a.t and tax properly accounted for at all your gigs over the past 20 years?

You have Tim Brown's number...call him.

link

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then stop bleating  mr.self righteous and speak with goldmine!

oh and by the way...all v.a.t and tax properly accounted for at all your gigs over the past 20 years?

You have Tim Brown's number...call him.

link

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