Hi all - I am a newbie posting to this site and I was wondering if anyone has come across this record label variant. The only one I can find on scouring the internet is the black MGM label. Just wondering if this is a genuine release or a bootleg. Cracking tune mind! Excuse my ignorance.

Cheers

chuffinnora

The label variant is pucker…there are better experts on here who would know whether it’s a boot.

Edited May 6, 20232 yr by Kenb

Going by the very poor printing and the fact that there's no sign of anything similar in an online search I'd be confident that it's a wrong'un.

55 minutes ago, Kenb said:

The label variant is pucker…there are better experts on here who would know whether it’s a boot.

Cheers Kenb

8 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

Going by the very poor printing and the fact that there's no sign of anything similar in an online search I'd be confident that it's a wrong'un.

Cheers Woodbutcher

2 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

Going by the very poor printing and the fact that there's no sign of anything similar in an online search I'd be confident that it's a wrong'un.

I’m no expert on boots, but I have a Connie Francis oldie (not tick tick, although I do have that) on a similar/ same label imprint.perhaps though “your 45” may not be “right”. All  I can say is I have a near identical label.( but not with that track on it)

Edited May 6, 20232 yr by Kenb

20 minutes ago, Kenb said:

I’m no expert on boots, but I have a Connie Francis oldie (not tick tick, although I do have that) on a similar/ same label imprint.perhaps though “your 45” may not be “right”. All  I can say is I have a near identical label.( but not with that track on it)

Look at the lettering , clean and crisp.

Edited May 6, 20232 yr by Woodbutcher

There are many other legit MGM 45's that have the same 'poor' printing so this 45 is not unique in that respect. Suspicious and intriguing in equal measures. Can you provide a scan with it out of the sleeve and give us the matrix numbers? 

Edited May 7, 20232 yr by Modularman

19 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

Look at the lettering , clean and crisp.

One is  a UK release and the other is a debatable US release..

The Invitations disc looks quite good compared to that Embers disc....

6 hours ago, Modularman said:

There are many other legit MGM 45's that have the same 'poor' printing so this 45 is not unique in that respect. Suspicious and intriguing in equal measures. Can you provide a scan with it out of the sleeve and give us the matrix numbers? 

Hi Modularman

Thanks for your reply. I have attached two images out of the sleeve below.

Cheers chuffinnora

The matrix numbers are:

Side A: K13666 101015

Side B: K13666 101016 A.L

52 minutes ago, chuffinnora said:

Hi Modularman

Thanks for your reply. I have attached two images out of the sleeve below.

Cheers chuffinnora

The matrix numbers are:

Side A: K13666 101015

Side B: K13666 101016 A.L

Cheers for those.

Those matrixes are the same as my promo copy. Are they scratched in or stamped in the runout?

2 minutes ago, Modularman said:

Cheers for those.

Those matrixes are the same as my promo copy. Are they scratched in or stamped in the runout?

Hi - scratched in. Cheers.

wasn't aware it had been boosted on this variant?  Looks pretty much there same as other releases with that label variant, 1968/69 onwards.

1 hour ago, chuffinnora said:

Hi - scratched in. Cheers.

The promo matrixes are scratched in too.

Here are some pictures of them, are yours the same?

6 minutes ago, Modularman said:

The promo matrixes are scratched in too.

Here are some pictures of them, are yours the same?

Hi Modularman

Yes the same.

I guess a lot of MGM labels are 'poorly printed' then looking at these ... usually a good pointer generally.

44 minutes ago, Chalky said:

wasn't aware it had been boosted on this variant?  Looks pretty much there same as other releases with that label variant, 1968/69 onwards.

Have you seen this variant before Chalky?

There is no trace of it on popsike, discogs, 45cat, ebay or a general Google search.

41 minutes ago, Modularman said:

Have you seen this variant before Chalky?

There is no trace of it on popsike, discogs, 45cat, ebay or a general Google search.

Just looked again and noticed "Little" in the title and different music publisher.  Been a long three days with little sleep 🤣

Edited May 7, 20232 yr by Chalky

I’m confused ....

Is this thread about The Embers or The Invitations....?

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Just looked again and noticed "Little" in the title and different music publisher.  Been a long three days with little sleep 🤣

Are you getting Embers and Invitations mixed up due to lack of sleep 🤔

2 minutes ago, Mgm 1251 said:

Is this thread about The Embers or The Invitations....?

Think the thread is about the Invitations issue, but as gone slightly off course. 

The Invitations issue, although not seen one before, does look legit (imo).

Regards 

Yes...I think the ol’ trucker has gone off down the wrong road....

 

9 minutes ago, Theothertosspot said:

Think the thread is about the Invitations issue, but as gone slightly off course. 

The Invitations issue, although not seen one before, does look legit (imo).

Regards 

Just like you,I ain’t seen another one niether,but did say in an earlier post that it does look ‘good’..👍

4 minutes ago, Mgm 1251 said:

Is this thread about The Embers or The Invitations....?

Hi Mgm 1251 it was originally about a copy of Watch Little Girl by the Invitations I have on an MGM label that I couldn't find any information on anywhere on the internet. I wanted to see if I can find out if it is a boot.

Cheers

Darren

2 minutes ago, chuffinnora said:

Hi Mgm 1251 it was originally about a copy of Watch Little Girl by the Invitations I have on an MGM label that I couldn't find any information on anywhere on the internet. I wanted to see if I can find out if it is a boot.

Cheers

Darren

Hi Darren...as a matter of interest,how long have you had it for...?

10 minutes ago, Theothertosspot said:

Think the thread is about the Invitations issue, but as gone slightly off course. 

The Invitations issue, although not seen one before, does look legit (imo).

Regards 

Yes it's the Invitations we are referring to 😂

The black MGM label design used on the issue of 'Watch Out Little Girl' was used from 1959 - 1968.

The label variant the OP has was used from 1968 - 1982 so it must be a later press using the same stampers. 

Never seen one before either but it must be legit!

26 minutes ago, Theothertosspot said:

Are you getting Embers and Invitations mixed up due to lack of sleep 🤔

Yes….told you it’d been a long three days 😂 

never seen this variant before, that label wasn’t in use at the time of release and wasn’t aware of any reissue?

off to bed now to catch up on some sleep 😴 😂 

47 minutes ago, Mgm 1251 said:

Hi Darren...as a matter of interest,how long have you had it for...?

Hi Mgm 1251 it is from my old man's collection. He would have got it when it was released or in the early 70s at the latest.

Cheers

1 hour ago, chuffinnora said:

Hi Mgm 1251 it is from my old man's collection. He would have got it when it was released or in the early 70s at the latest.

Cheers

Crikey......and nobody has seen a copy like it before...?

So this is legit?

Must be rare. Anyone know how many copies a huge company like MGM would've repressed?

Why has this been off the radar for so long?

If it's OK chuffinnora I've added your images to the 45cat site: 

https://www.45cat.com/record/k13666

These things need to be documented and maybe someone on that site will come forward with another copy. 

 

4 minutes ago, Soul-slider said:

If it's OK chuffinnora I've added your images to the 45cat site: 

https://www.45cat.com/record/k13666

These things need to be documented and maybe someone on that site will come forward with another copy. 

 

Hi Soul-slider, not a problem at all. I am interested to see what can be found out.

Cheers

Chuffinnora

If you look at MGM releases there are others that were released on both label variants, Eric Burdon and The Magistrates the first I could see but they were in 1968 and reissued almost straight away, not a year or so later.

4 hours ago, Chalky said:

If you look at MGM releases there are others that were released on both label variants, Eric Burdon and The Magistrates the first I could see but they were in 1968 and reissued almost straight away, not a year or so later.

Isn’t the spider turner “alive” on this blue variant,but not on a black or yellow?

1 minute ago, Dobber said:

Isn’t the spider turner “alive” on this blue variant,but not on a black or yellow?

It is yes. It was never issued until the flip was reissued on this variant

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

It is yes. It was never issued until the flip was reissued on this variant

So I reckon this invitations variant is on a par with the spyder turner variant where mgm toward the end of the 60’s they have a number of releases or re’releases that were put out in small numbers and have through the passing of time have become very rare items! And whilst this invitations variant is rare and a great little thing,I suspect to be a reissue of the black issue and yellow demo from maybe a couple of years earlier?

Warner Bros was acquired by Seven Arts in 1967. The first Loma release of 1968 was The Implements "Ole man soul". This is available on both the 'original' yellow Loma label and the 'new' green label. The green variant was released concurrent with the old design. The following three releases were pressed, to the best of my knowledge, solely with the original label design.

In Feb 1968, Linda Jones "My heart needs a break" was pressed with both the yellow and the green labels. Again, these were released concurrently. The new label design was not a reissue/rerelease.

The Implements release on the yellow label is commonplace. The release with the new, green label is exceptionally hard to find. I don't have a copy, but do have a scan of it. Indeed, do a Google search and the only image of it you'll find is one I posted here some time ago.

My point is that if the two MGM label designs were being used in 1968 (as stated in Modularman's post), then, as with Loma, there very easily could have been a crossover period where both were used. However, like The Implements on Loma - available with both designs, but with the new variant being super hard to locate - it could be that the new MGM logo was only partially rolled out.

I don't see any real reason to suggest The Invitations MGM swirl label is a reissue.

1 hour ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Warner Bros was acquired by Seven Arts in 1967. The first Loma release of 1968 was The Implements "Ole man soul". This is available on both the 'original' yellow Loma label and the 'new' green label. The green variant was released concurrent with the old design. The following three releases were pressed, to the best of my knowledge, solely with the original label design.

In Feb 1968, Linda Jones "My heart needs a break" was pressed with both the yellow and the green labels. Again, these were released concurrently. The new label design was not a reissue/rerelease.

The Implements release on the yellow label is commonplace. The release with the new, green label is exceptionally hard to find. I don't have a copy, but do have a scan of it. Indeed, do a Google search and the only image of it you'll find is one I posted here some time ago.

My point is that if the two MGM label designs were being used in 1968 (as stated in Modularman's post), then, as with Loma, there very easily could have been a crossover period where both were used. However, like The Implements on Loma - available with both designs, but with the new variant being super hard to locate - it could be that the new MGM logo was only partially rolled out.

I don't see any real reason to suggest The Invitations MGM swirl label is a reissue.

The Invitations was Feb 1967. The label in question came about in April 1968.  There was a mixture of Black and Blue and gold releases on certain releases during the crossover period with certain plants using the black well into 1968. 
 

It would suggest the Invitations is a reissue and not one from the crossover of labels period?

Not convinced it's a reissue. A repress, perhaps, but not a reissue. 

Looking through the MGM discography shows the new branding was first used in 1967. Not on labels, but the new lion head design appears on 45rpm picture covers and album covers. For example:

Robie Porter's "That's the way love goes"

https://www.discogs.com/master/1111867-Robie-Porter-Thats-The-Way-Love-Goes-Yesterday-Years/image/SW1hZ2U6MTY1NzkwNDU=

Robie Porter's "You could end the world"

https://www.discogs.com/release/14256038-Robie-Porter-You-Could-End-The-World-Softly-As-I-Leave-You-/image/SW1hZ2U6OTM2OTYzNjI=

Eric Burdon's "The best of..." LP

https://www.discogs.com/release/6469935-Eric-Burdon-And-The-Animals-The-Best-Of-Eric-Burdon-And-The-Animals-Vol-II/image/SW1hZ2U6NDc1ODI1NTM=

All three were released in 1967. Thus it does seem possible a transition period did go on through 1967 and 68.

The Formations "At the top of the stairs", which first saw chart action in Feb 1968, came out on both the 'old' MGM label and the new one. We know it could take weeks or even months for a 45 to break in any chart, thus it could easily have been pressed late 67. In support of that, Billboard mentions that track twice in its Feb 17 1968 edition - once as a new release and as a track that was having a regional breakout. If it was getting strong regional airplay in the week prior to Feb 17th, then it had certainly been pressed in January (maybe even earlier) and subsequently distributed to radio stations late January/ very early Feb 1968

Of course, another possibility is that the initial run might have sold out and it was pressed again, this time with the new logo.

The Invitations' track saw no national chart action (Billboard/Record World/ Cash box). But, if there was some regional action here and there, a repress might have been needed - and this time done with the new label design.

For MGM to wait something like a year and decide to reissue a flop doesn't make sense.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Not convinced it's a reissue. A repress, perhaps, but not a reissue. 

Looking through the MGM discography shows the new branding was first used in 1967. Not on labels, but the new lion head design appears on 45rpm picture covers and album covers. For example:

Robie Porter's "That's the way love goes"

https://www.discogs.com/master/1111867-Robie-Porter-Thats-The-Way-Love-Goes-Yesterday-Years/image/SW1hZ2U6MTY1NzkwNDU=

Robie Porter's "You could end the world"

https://www.discogs.com/release/14256038-Robie-Porter-You-Could-End-The-World-Softly-As-I-Leave-You-/image/SW1hZ2U6OTM2OTYzNjI=

Eric Burdon's "The best of..." LP

https://www.discogs.com/release/6469935-Eric-Burdon-And-The-Animals-The-Best-Of-Eric-Burdon-And-The-Animals-Vol-II/image/SW1hZ2U6NDc1ODI1NTM=

All three were released in 1967. Thus it does seem possible a transition period did go on through 1967 and 68.

The Formations "At the top of the stairs", which first saw chart action in Feb 1968, came out on both the 'old' MGM label and the new one. We know it could take weeks or even months for a 45 to break in any chart, thus it could easily have been pressed late 67. In support of that, Billboard mentions that track twice in its Feb 17 1968 edition - once as a new release and as a track that was having a regional breakout. If it was getting strong regional airplay in the week prior to Feb 17th, then it had certainly been pressed in January (maybe even earlier) and subsequently distributed to radio stations late January/ very early Feb 1968

Of course, another possibility is that the initial run might have sold out and it was pressed again, this time with the new logo.

The Invitations' track saw no national chart action (Billboard/Record World/ Cash box). But, if there was some regional action here and there, a repress might have been needed - and this time done with the new label design.

For MGM to wait something like a year and decide to reissue a flop doesn't make sense.

 

 

Hi all - this is really interesting stuff and glad to have started some interesting conversations.  I was interested as I could track down the rest of my old man's collection through the internet but not this one. Be good to find out if anyone else has a copy! I will still be playing the record regardless.....  

Went to buy an embers watch out girl until I discovered it was this design. Never heard of a black one

I don't think you'll find the Embers on the black label MGM- the record was issued in 1970 which was a few years into the blue/gold swirl design. Here's a local station listing from 1970 with the 45 listed under the flip side  at # 10  -

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

I don't think you'll find the Embers on the black label MGM- the record was issued in 1970 which was a few years into the blue/gold swirl design. Here's a local station listing from 1970 with the 45 listed under the flip side  at # 10  -

February 1967 !!! Was it repress to supply demand for a second 'revive' as a recent oldie... 

Edited May 9, 20232 yr by Tlscapital

2 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

February 1967 !!! Was it repress to supply demand for a second 'revive' as a recent oldie... 

Topic back to the Embers again which is 1970

12 hours ago, Brunswick 58 said:

Went to buy an embers watch out girl until I discovered it was this design. Never heard of a black one

Never issued on Black label, they'd stopped using that label by the time of the Embers release

DOH my bad... Evidently. My dislike for both records lead me to mix them up. Ever since that too. Although I love materials from both groups. My apologies to all. Back on track now. 

Edited May 9, 20232 yr by Tlscapital

35 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

DOH my bad... Evidently. My dislike for both records lead me to mix them up. Ever since that too. Although I love materials from both groups. My apologies to all. Back on track now. 

Same for me other day, and little sleep for three days, wasn't paying full attention LOL