Tim Brown said this quote on Granada TV in '96 and has always stayed with me. To me it's up there with "one small step for mankind" from a soul perspective....and as important as Dave Godin penning the term "Northern Soul"

"The People in England have become the guardian's of lost American soul music"

I'm sure most will agree (but I'd deffo include Scotland in the quote myself!) but just wondered what your thoughts are?

Particularly be interested to hear from members the other side of the pond.

Did the UK soulies stop it being forgotten and reminded Detroit, Chicago et all the heritage they had?

And without the UK soul scene would it totally have been forgotten due to it's lack of commercial success?

Just a thought on a pensive moment.

Interested to hear everyone's slant on this.

Edited February 3, 201015 yr by soulechoes

Tim Brown said this quote on Granada TV in '96 and has always stayed with me. To me it's up there with "one small step for mankind" from a soul perspective....and as important as Dave Godin penning the term "Northern Soul"

"The People in England have become the guardian's of lost American soul music"

I'm sure most will agree (but I'd deffo include Scotland in the quote myself!) but just wondered what your thoughts are?

Particularly be interested to hear from members the other side of the pond.

Did the UK soulies stop it being forgotten and reminded Detroit, Chicago et all the heritage they had?

And without the UK soul scene would it totally have been forgotten due to it's lack of commercial success?

Just a thought on a pensive moment.

Interested to hear everyone's slant on this.

I agree to a degree. Northern is just one sub-genre of the soul music spectrum and if not for the UK Northern scene then most of the "Northern" tracks that have been discovered over the years would never have seen the light of day. However other sub-genres have been avidly collected by other countries for many years. Perhaps not the same amount of folks who were/are into the Northern scene but countries like Netherlands and Japan have been discovering records in the Deep Soul genre for many years. The Japs were scouring the US for Deep Soul at the same time as many in the UK were hunting Northern.

Edited February 2, 201015 yr by Dave Turner

Tim Brown said this quote on Granada TV in '96 and has always stayed with me. To me it's up there with "one small step for mankind" from a soul perspective....and as important as Dave Godin penning the term "Northern Soul"

"The People in England have become the guardian's of lost American soul music"

I'm sure most will agree (but I'd deffo include Scotland in the quote myself!) but just wondered what your thoughts are?

Particularly be interested to hear from members the other side of the pond.

Did the UK soulies stop it being forgotten and reminded Detroit, Chicago et all the heritage they had?

And without the UK soul scene would it totally have been forgotten due to it's lack of commercial success?

Just a thought on a pensive moment.

Interested to hear everyone's slant on this.

Yep. Totally accurate. The UK's obsession with (mostly) unheralded U.S. Black Music goes back to the 50's and has continued ever since. In the 50's it was mainly the Jazz Collectors (slightly before my time but I'm fairly well read on this stuff) , followed in the early 60's by the Blues and RnB collectors (which in turn fueled the home-grown RnB scene - the Stones, the Who, the Beatles, Alexis Korner etc were all avid collectors) and then in the late 60's people like John Abbey were setting up 'Home Of The Blues' (which then mutated into Blues & Soul) and Dave Godin started the Tamla Motown Appreciation Society plus Dusty Springfield was hosting a Motown show on mainstream TV and clubs like The Flamingo, The Scene, The Whiskey a Go-Go and the Twisted Wheel were all featuring relatively unknown U.S. Black artists. Northern Soul crept into the equation at some point in the late 60's but was essentially a continuation of the previous ethos.

By the time the 70's arrived the UK was ideally placed to take it's obsession even further with the advent of cheaper air travel and easier communications which meant that more record hounds could hop on planes and find records for themselves - something which has continued to this day accross a plethora of different scenes which all collect U.S. Black music whether it be Jazz, Blues, R'n'B, Motown, Northern, Southern, Deep, Funk, Jazz-Funk, Rare-Groove, Disco, Modern, Hip-Hop, Rap etc, etc.

The UK has also had the liveliest Music re-issue capability in the world (although the Japanese are also very good in this area as is lately Numero in the U.S.) and I think this is simply another example of a nation which often puts a higher value on other nations cultures than they do themselves.

I've often wondered why this is. Is it because the UK has a long history of cultural imperialism which means that it's possible for us to assimilate and understand other people's cultures really quickly and then document and curate them? Are we a nation of librarians and historians - something which may have been instilled within us through our education and value systems?

I don't know the answers for sure, but it's a phenomenon which makes us a natural nation of crate-diggers.

But more to the point, what is it about the U.S.A. which made them so dismissive of anything which wasn't an immediate commercial success? Was it something within their philosophy which only rated commercial success as being the most important thing at the time? I often wondered about this when I first went to the States in '76, went into record shops, asked where the Soul was and invariably got pointed towards the 'Oldies But Goodies' sections with the $1 represses of 4 Tops and Supremes hits. I learned very fast to cut to the quick and simply ask where the crap or 10c boxes were 'cos that's where the real gems were.

However, it probably goes back a lot further. I can remember reading an interview about the Rolling Stones first visit to the Chess studios in 1964 when they enquired whether they could meet their No.1 all-time idol, bluesman Muddy Waters and Chess's boss, Leonard Chess said, "Sure. He's right here".

He was painting the ceiling to earn some extra dosh.

Ian D

Yep. Totally accurate. The UK's obsession with (mostly) unheralded U.S. Black Music goes back to the 50's and has continued ever since. In the 50's it was mainly the Jazz Collectors (slightly before my time but I'm fairly well read on this stuff) , followed in the early 60's by the Blues and RnB collectors (which in turn fueled the home-grown RnB scene - the Stones, the Who, the Beatles, Alexis Korner etc were all avid collectors) and then in the late 60's people like John Abbey were setting up 'Home Of The Blues' (which then mutated into Blues & Soul) and Dave Godin started the Tamla Motown Appreciation Society plus Dusty Springfield was hosting a Motown show on mainstream TV and clubs like The Flamingo, The Scene, The Whiskey a Go-Go and the Twisted Wheel were all featuring relatively unknown U.S. Black artists. Northern Soul crept into the equation at some point in the late 60's but was essentially a continuation of the previous ethos.

By the time the 70's arrived the UK was ideally placed to take it's obsession even further with the advent of cheaper air travel and easier communications which meant that more record hounds could hop on planes and find records for themselves - something which has continued to this day accross a plethora of different scenes which all collect U.S. Black music whether it be Jazz, Blues, R'n'B, Motown, Northern, Southern, Deep, Funk, Jazz-Funk, Rare-Groove, Disco, Modern, Hip-Hop, Rap etc, etc.

The UK has also had the liveliest Music re-issue capability in the world (although the Japanese are also very good in this area as is lately Numero in the U.S.) and I think this is simply another example of a nation which often puts a higher value on other nations cultures than they do themselves.

I've often wondered why this is. Is it because the UK has a long history of cultural imperialism which means that it's possible for us to assimilate and understand other people's cultures really quickly and then document and curate them? Are we a nation of librarians and historians - something which may have been instilled within us through our education and value systems?

I don't know the answers for sure, but it's a phenomenon which makes us a natural nation of crate-diggers.

But more to the point, what is it about the U.S.A. which made them so dismissive of anything which wasn't an immediate commercial success? Was it something within their philosophy which only rated commercial success as being the most important thing at the time? I often wondered about this when I first went to the States in '76, went into record shops, asked where the Soul was and invariably got pointed towards the 'Oldies But Goodies' sections with the $1 represses of 4 Tops and Supremes hits. I learned very fast to cut to the quick and simply ask where the crap or 10c boxes were 'cos that's where the real gems were.

However, it probably goes back a lot further. I can remember reading an interview about the Rolling Stones first visit to the Chess studios in 1964 when they enquired whether they could meet their No.1 all-time idol, bluesman Muddy Waters and Chess's boss, Leonard Chess said, "Sure. He's right here".

He was painting the ceiling to earn some extra dosh.

Ian D

Cracking post Ian. I love informative threads like this.

Edited February 2, 201015 yr by Maark

Cracking post Ian. I love informative threads like this.

ditto, very interesting read bud

jason

Tim Brown said this quote on Granada TV in '96 and has always stayed with me. To me it's up there with "one small step for mankind" from a soul perspective....and as important as Dave Godin penning the term "Northern Soul"

"The People in England have become the guardian's of lost American soul music"

I'm sure most will agree (but I'd deffo include Scotland in the quote myself!) but just wondered what your thoughts are?

Particularly be interested to hear from members the other side of the pond.

Did the UK soulies stop it being forgotten and reminded Detroit, Chicago et all the heritage they had?

And without the UK soul scene would it totally have been forgotten due to it's lack of commercial success?

Just a thought on a pensive moment.

Interested to hear everyone's slant on this.

As someone from "across the pond", I disagree, but also don't want to get involved in the discussion as I have before and it always turns into a flame war... just wanted to get this out there...

As someone from "across the pond", I disagree, but also don't want to get involved in the discussion as I have before and it always turns into a flame war... just wanted to get this out there...

Actually I thought this subject might raise the ire of some of our American brethren but there really weren't too many serious Soul collectors around the U.S. in the 60's/70's to my knowledge. I met lots of collectors in L.A., Frisco, New York, Pittsburgh and Philly in the mid 70's but they weren't particularly into Soul although they were often sat on unbelievable stuff which they weren't too bothered about at the time. No offence meant Boba - it's always dangerous to generalise I know........

Ian D

Nice thoughts and Japan is also good with re-issuing some of the old stuff on CD. to my memory Maxine Brown - Out of Sight album is only Japan CD release. well it was when i brought it few years ago.

Ian seems to touch good notes and aside from that(loved the article with you in it in Music week this week)

Will have to thank Ian Dewhirst for his eloquant reply on this thought,,,pretty conclusive in my head as I suspected really. But it's an open ended question and be interested to hear U.S. collectors stance on the subject.

I often wondered about this when I first went to the States in '76, went into record shops, asked where the Soul was and invariably got pointed towards the 'Oldies But Goodies' sections with the $1 represses of 4 Tops and Supremes hits. I learned very fast to cut to the quick and simply ask where the crap or 10c boxes were 'cos that's where the real gems were.

Ian D

This was true for every genre of music - unless you were in NYC looking for doowop. Has nothing to do with regards to soul music vs rockabilly, garage, psych, R&B. It was still true in many places until eBay changed the game forever. Look at an old Jerry Osborn record price guide if you need validation.

Pop culture has always been considered disposable in the US. That's hardly a revelation to anyone who's a native. For good or for bad, that's the way it is.

- George

There was a nice quote from Eric Burden on the "7 Ages of Rock"

"We stuck our hands into Americas dustbin and found culture"

It fits dunnit

This was true for every genre of music - unless you were in NYC looking for doowop. Has nothing to do with regards to soul music vs rockabilly, garage, psych, R&B. It was still true in many places until eBay changed the game forever. Look at an old Jerry Osborn record price guide if you need validation.

Pop culture has always been considered disposable in the US. That's hardly a revelation to anyone who's a native. For good or for bad, that's the way it is.

- George

monetary value and the fetishization of plastic doesn't equate to cultural value. the fact that people didn't pay insane amounts for pieces of plastic doesn't mean they didn't value the music. even most of the records weren't worth that much in england until recently, now every obscure record is worth a bazillion dollars, it used to be that you could actually get interesting and good records for $5 or less.

As someone from "across the pond", I disagree, but also don't want to get involved in the discussion as I have before and it always turns into a flame war... just wanted to get this out there...

That's a shame as I always like reading your opinions. I find your views refreshing as you are not part of any SCENE (as far as I can tell from your posts) and your posts therefore seem to accomodate a 360 degree perspective rather than one that has been formed by the dos and don'ts and the perceived selfimportants that come with being part of any scene.

Maybe, if you can be bothered, you'd like to pm me your views.

As someone from "across the pond", I disagree, but also don't want to get involved in the discussion as I have before and it always turns into a flame war... just wanted to get this out there...

Yeah, funny you are having to post this on a UK site, because there isn't a US equivalent !

Yeah, funny you are having to post this on a UK site, because there isn't a US equivalent !

Dave, it seems you always trying to flame me. You never have anything positive to say and are always out to get me, often to the point of being silly and irrational. You take snipes at me every chance you get. I post on a US site by the way -- soulfuldetroit. The two message boards I post on are here and soulfuldetroit. There are other US sites devoted to record collecting that are soul oriented (such as soul strut) that I don't post on. I would post on soul talk if there were any traffic. Soulfuldetroit is actually evidence I would present in this thread as it is filled with older music fans and collectors and musicians who continued to be involved with the music, independent of and oblivious of the northern scene. But I don't really want to get involved in this thread.

By the way, I look at your site (soulfuldkindamusic) all the time, it's great. I'm also very sorry to hear of the passing of your wife, my condolences.

Pop culture has always been considered disposable in the US. That's hardly a revelation to anyone who's a native. For good or for bad, that's the way it is.

- George

That's pretty much the point I was making George, but don't worry mate - we're here to collate and collect your culture so you don't have to!

Ian D

monetary value and the fetishization of plastic doesn't equate to cultural value. the fact that people didn't pay insane amounts for pieces of plastic doesn't mean they didn't value the music. even most of the records weren't worth that much in england until recently, now every obscure record is worth a bazillion dollars, it used to be that you could actually get interesting and good records for $5 or less.

Even less than that Bob. In the mid 70's a dime to a quarter a record was the norm (I think new 45's were maybe a buck apiece then). Also I would argue that good U.S. 45's have always commanded a healthy premium in the UK since the late 60's. When I started buying Northern Soul around '71/'72 a Duke Browner, Bobby Treetop or Johnny Moore would set you back around £4.00 (or $8) which was around one sixth of my weekly wage at the time. A decent U.S. original 45 that wasn't easily available was running @ circa 800% more than the price of buying a Top 20 single, so there's always been a healthy premium on U.S. Soul 45's over here.

Since then it's inflated beyond belief as you say......

This is a subject that Keith Rylatt goes into at some length in his book Groovesville USA.

'After ten years of non-stop vinyl output, the US record mountain was colossal, particularly Detroit's, as very few locally produced discs made it beyond the city's boundary. By 1970 something had to give as record stores, juke box operators, radio stations, record companies and warehouses were now fit to burst with unsold, deleted, returned and ex-juke box 45s which were then as much use as yesterday's papers.'

Martin Koppel told Keith about the vast quantities of vinyl he picked up in Detroit in 1971 from guys like Coachman and Bob Mays. Don't forget that these were regular record stores (still selling new vinyl) and they were glad to see the back of old records they couldn't shift. I'm sure this was the same story across the whole of the US.

That's not to say there weren't dedicated 60s soul fans in the States but they weren't as voracious or as fanatical as their UK counterparts! And the fact that the Northern scene was compact and fairly centralised helped concentrate awareness.

I remember Blues & Soul interviewees in the early 70s were bemused at the interest the UK had for their older recordings when all they wanted to talk about was their latest release. When the Dramatics were big with 'Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get' why the hell should anybody care about 'Inky Dinky'? Hardly any of the records that the Northern crowd picked up on were hits, so without a similar scene as that in the UK it's very unlikely that they would have survived. Golden World dumped thousands of records when they sold out to Motown, as I'm sure did other labels.

The proliferation of price guides and the internet have made dealers more aware of record values, so you can't blame the Northern collectors for inflating prices.

If you're interested have a look at the Metro Times 100 Greatest Detroit Songs Ever! My link As well as Iggy Pop, Alice Cooper and Co there are of course lots of Motown and local R&B like the Falcons, Nolan Strong, Nathaniel Mayer etc but very few Golden World or Ric-Tic. Darrell Banks 'Open The Door To Your Heart' doesn't get a mention.

Stuart

i love reading these kinds of historical threads but sometimes i wish the writers of these kinds of posts would remmember the part that the punters have played over the years

the punters/dancers hardly ever seem to get a mention on this site

Edited February 3, 201015 yr by becchio

i love reading these kinds of historical threads but sometimes i wish the writers of these kinds of posts would remmember the part that the punters have played over the years

the punters/dancers hardly ever seem to get a mention on this site

Yep, you're right Bechio. I've often wondered how come all these ridiculously fast records were made in the first place and what audience they were intended for.

On the show last Sunday I played 5 fast-ish ones in a row - The Isley Brothers "Tell Me It's Just A Rumour", Maurice Williams "Being Without You", The Sunlovers "You'll Never Make The Grade", Bobby Treetop "Wait Till I Get To Know You" and The Idle Few "People That's Why" and it made me wonder were the kids really dancing that fast in Detroit, New Orleans, San Francisco, Chicago and New York? If so, were they dancing in the Northern Soul style?

When you think how fast some of the Mirwood stuff was, were they really doing the Temptation Walk and dancing to The Olympic's "The Same Old Thing" in Los Angeles in the mid 60's? Were they honestly dancing to records like Williams and Watson "Too Late", Sandi Sheldon's "You're Gonna Make Me Love You" and Major Lance's "You Don't Want Me No More" in Chicago?

Basically was America dancing in a Northern Soul style in the U.S. when the records first came out? Was anyone doing back-flips over there? Aeroplane spins? Handsprings? I'm genuinely interested..........

I guess the question is: did America invent Northern Soul dancing styles?

Ian D

I guess the question is: did America invent gymnastics ?

Ian D

Just corrected that for you.

;-)

Taxi

Just corrected that for you.

;-)

Taxi

Ian D

monetary value and the fetishization of plastic doesn't equate to cultural value. the fact that people didn't pay insane amounts for pieces of plastic doesn't mean they didn't value the music. even most of the records weren't worth that much in england until recently, now every obscure record is worth a bazillion dollars, it used to be that you could actually get interesting and good records for $5 or less.

Sorry Bob - It was intrinsic (In the Northern soul scene) as regards the monetary value and therefore regarded as cultural along with the venues and the life the people lived . The This England programme did alot of damage to the scene because it did not potray the cultural value that ther Northern scene grew from instead it homed on Historical culture.

Without being nasty Its difficult to understand the culture if you did not libve in it .

me too ian . id love to know or hear from a usa perspective. its given the whole world so much joy and release from the everday grind :-]

me too ian . id love to know or hear from a usa perspective. its given the whole world so much joy and release from the everday grind :-]

Looking for a US sight with a Soul thread, try here :-

www.imdb.com click on COMMUNITIES tab > MESSAGE BOARD > scroll down to MUSIC > click on BLUES JAZZ AND SOUL > Overlooked Soul Gems.

They DEFFO dont like Northern

it used to be that you could actually get interesting and good records for $5 or less.

it used to be that you could actually get interesting and good records for $5 or less.

I still think you can boba..............but then again I"ve never put rarity or monetary value above what I like about a record......plus I'm a cheapskate and a musical pervert

Cheers Paul

Sorry Bob - It was intrinsic (In the Northern soul scene) as regards the monetary value and therefore regarded as cultural along with the venues and the life the people lived . The This England programme did alot of damage to the scene because it did not potray the cultural value that ther Northern scene grew from instead it homed on Historical culture.

Without being nasty Its difficult to understand the culture if you did not libve in it .

the original question wasn't about preserving the cultural heritage of the northern soul scene, nor was I commenting on the cuture of the northern soul scene, which I am not qualified to comment on.

Ian seems to touch good notes and aside from that(loved the article with you in it in Music week this week)

Cheers mate! Yep it came out OK. I was very happy with it.

Ian D

I guess the question is: did America invent Northern Soul dancing styles?

Ian D

Ian

I think that the Northern Soul style of dancing was invented in the US; only as with a lot of US cultural transferences the UK developed it (the same thing happened with punk rock music). Having seen at first hand the 'shag' (the dancing style associated with 'beach music') which itself is a 'lindy hop' hybrid its easy to see the connection but instead of dancing as couples the Northern Soul style developed into the solo thing we know and love.

As for the music - of course we're preservationists but for how much longer I wonder....

Mick

Well here's a l'il something I dug up from '65.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgnCB7oni8o

Ian D src=" ">

Edited February 6, 201015 yr by Ian Dewhirst

Well, here's a l'il something I dug up from from '65......

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=bgnCB7oni8o

Ian D

Well, here's a l'il something I dug up from from '65......


https://www.youtube.c...h?v=bgnCB7oni8o


Ian D

Ian

How about this?

Mick

In 74 the Oldies record shops in the US that I visited didn't value soul at all and several actually took the piss once they found out that was what you wanted. Val Shively was particularly crap in those days and George's Golden Oldies in Hackensack sn*****ed between themselves until I whipped out an original Swallows 'Eternally' on King for trades when they quickly became my new best friends.

I think American soul fans picked up most of what they wanted cheaply and without too much trouble but I don't think many of them pushed the boundaries by going for the unusual or eclectic much and I don't think there were that many serious collectors apart from the Doo Wop guys who got into soul group styles.

Hmmm one of the most interesting threads I've read in some time. Just a couple of thoughts re the USA's attitude to Northern Soul. Visualise a scene in Liverpool in the early 70s - hardly anybody wanted Beatles stuff on Parlophone, let alone the Searchers or Gerry & the Pacemakers and meanwhile Japanese collectors were hoovering not only Merseyside but the whole UK dry of anything Merseybeat, all at 5p each. Let's face it, who else wanted Billy J Kramer records back then? Then, 25 years on, folk in Britain see that the a fore mentioned Big 3 and Swinging Blue Jeans 45s are selling in the far east for up to £2000 each and the Japs are regarded as the world experts on the genre and some of 'em smuggly imply that our beat generation were stupid, ignorant and uncultured for allowing it all to slip through our fingers.

Now as far as US Soul fans are concerned I've NEVER come across anyone with any axe to grind - like folk in Britain who allowed genres of our music to go cheaply. I recall when the late Chris Savory moved from Kent to Staffs. He gave me about 1000 Reggae 45s he couldn't shift, and neather could I so I put them in some bin bags and sold them to dealer for pence.

The only sh+t I have experienced from Americans has been from dealers, in Philly the tw+t than ran Bridge records for example, wouldn't even let me in the store because of my accent - he was sh+t scared that I was going to find some treasures. Also, in that neck of the woods - Val Shively - no records are priced, I bet a British accent puts a few $$ on the bill.

I have read many of Boba's post elsewhere and have great respect for him and agree with his points about our (UK) obsession with the vinyl artifact - I know, I'm the world's worst vinyl snob! I'd anyday have a VG orig 45 than a mint Ronco record. But in my experience Americans do not appreciate older Soul as much as some countries, on an average night in front of the box you can probably hear more rare Soul tracks on ads than on a juke box in the states - that Persil track from a few years ago is an excellent example of our obsession.

Hmmm one of the most interesting threads I've read in some time. Just a couple of thoughts re the USA's attitude to Northern Soul. Visualise a scene in Liverpool in the early 70s - hardly anybody wanted Beatles stuff on Parlophone, let alone the Searchers or Gerry & the Pacemakers and meanwhile Japanese collectors were hoovering not only Merseyside but the whole UK dry of anything Merseybeat, all at 5p each. Let's face it, who else wanted Billy J Kramer records back then? Then, 25 years on, folk in Britain see that the a fore mentioned Big 3 and Swinging Blue Jeans 45s are selling in the far east for up to £2000 each and the Japs are regarded as the world experts on the genre and some of 'em smuggly imply that our beat generation were stupid, ignorant and uncultured for allowing it all to slip through our fingers.

Now as far as US Soul fans are concerned I've NEVER come across anyone with any axe to grind - like folk in Britain who allowed genres of our music to go cheaply. I recall when the late Chris Savory moved from Kent to Staffs. He gave me about 1000 Reggae 45s he couldn't shift, and neather could I so I put them in some bin bags and sold them to dealer for pence.

The only sh+t I have experienced from Americans has been from dealers, in Philly the tw+t than ran Bridge records for example, wouldn't even let me in the store because of my accent - he was sh+t scared that I was going to find some treasures. Also, in that neck of the woods - Val Shively - no records are priced, I bet a British accent puts a few $$ on the bill.

I have read many of Boba's post elsewhere and have great respect for him and agree with his points about our (UK) obsession with the vinyl artifact - I know, I'm the world's worst vinyl snob! I'd anyday have a VG orig 45 than a mint Ronco record. But in my experience Americans do not appreciate older Soul as much as some countries, on an average night in front of the box you can probably hear more rare Soul tracks on ads than on a juke box in the states - that Persil track from a few years ago is an excellent example of our obsession.

You could be right there Keith . In the times I visited Val Shively , I found him to be very vocal in his dislike and distrust of us , and I am sure I will have paid more than the going price he had / wanted for stuff .

Mind you , I think he disliked everybody not just Brits ......

Malc Burton

Edited February 7, 201015 yr by Malc Burton

Ian Dewhirst´s lenghty post in the beginning of this thread

Reading your post just reminds me how much I am looking forward to reading the book that you are working on!

Please let me be the first one to know when it´s about to hit the presses, Ian.

This is a very interesting thread and in particular when we get to see it from both the UK and the US perspective.

Best,

Mel

Edited February 7, 201015 yr by djmelismo

I think there's another perspective that's worth looking at here, and it's as much through the prism of race as nationality that the UK's obsession with obscure soul music makes sense (IMO obviously )

UK music writer and radio DJ Charlie Gillett, in his book "Sound of the City", remarked about the tendency of white music enthusiasts and collectors to almost "curate" old forms of US Black music, and I guess British fans even more so. Think of the boom in interest in Trad Jazz in the 1950's, or hear the accounts of US bluesman Big Bill Broonzy's appearances in UK folk clubs in the same period, even before Jagger and co were picking up on US R&B artists whose time appeared to have long gone.

By comparison, the US music writer Nelson George describes the developing music tastes of African-Americans as being in "continual flight from the status quo"; whilst white afficianados were busy collating, annotating and salivating over old vinyl, black folks were busy creating, listening to and dancing to the next big thing ........ one result of this (perhaps) is the comparatively small size of the US R&B "heritage" industry, compared to the size of the industry, both sides of the Atlantic, that continues to make money off the back of old, largely white, rock music.

You could be right there Keith . In the times I visited Val Shively , I found him to be very vocal in his dislike and distrust of us , and I am sure I will have paid more than the going price he had / wanted for stuff .

Mind you , I think he disliked everybody not just Brits ......

Malc Burton

Actually I can't fault Val. I turned up there in late '76 and he let me stay at his place which was pretty decent of him. I spent a fascinating night listening to his tales about the Doo-Wop collectors market which dwarfed Northern Soul at the time and involved big money, guns and gangsters on occasion.

I probably got off lightly 'cos when I entered the shop he was having a massive arguement with a Canadian black guy that was trawling for stuff for the Japanese. Apparently this guy always messed up Val's filing system and haggled to the 9th degree so as entered the shop there was a screaming match going on - "Get the f*ck out of my shop Motherf*cker" etc, etc.

Unbelievably the same guy turned up again the next day and ended up actually getting some records off Val even after the arguement. I was leaving for the UK that same day and the Canadian guy asked if I could give him a lift on the way to the airport so I said I'd split the cab fare with him. We got about 20 minutes away from the shop and without any warning the guy just bailed out of the cab @ around 20mph! I looked out the back window of the cab to see an afro-haired black guy in a long leather coat rolling around in the road before he got up and legged it with the 45's still in his hand!

Val was right...........

Ian D

I think there's another perspective that's worth looking at here, and it's as much through the prism of race as nationality that the UK's obsession with obscure soul music makes sense (IMO obviously )

UK music writer and radio DJ Charlie Gillett, in his book "Sound of the City", remarked about the tendency of white music enthusiasts and collectors to almost "curate" old forms of US Black music, and I guess British fans even more so. Think of the boom in interest in Trad Jazz in the 1950's, or hear the accounts of US bluesman Big Bill Broonzy's appearances in UK folk clubs in the same period, even before Jagger and co were picking up on US R&B artists whose time appeared to have long gone.

By comparison, the US music writer Nelson George describes the developing music tastes of African-Americans as being in "continual flight from the status quo"; whilst white afficianados were busy collating, annotating and salivating over old vinyl, black folks were busy creating, listening to and dancing to the next big thing ........ one result of this (perhaps) is the comparatively small size of the US R&B "heritage" industry, compared to the size of the industry, both sides of the Atlantic, that continues to make money off the back of old, largely white, rock music.

Absolutely right Richard. Also it's just occurred to me that financially it probably made more sense to keep the U.S. R'n'B "heritage" industry small and contained since the contracts were so bad! Hence the reason why the Rhythm & Blues Foundation was set up in 1988:-

https://www.rhythm-n-blues.org/

From most of the record companies points of view it probably made more sense to ignore the back catalogues because there's always a new bunch of naive performers coming through who would sign anything to have a shot a being a star. Even though back catalogue accounts for well over 50% of the revenues this wasn't something that they particularly wanted to publicise.

Even now there is an attitude at some companies that it's almost not worth digging out old tapes because that could open a can of worms!

Also another impediment to the re-issuing of old obscure titles, is that many of the contracts that were written in the 60's specifically dealt with physical carriers only. Back then no one realised that the future would hold a digital revolution, so a lot of the repertoire owned by the majors especially would require new contracts for digital and that would probably require a substantial renegotiation of the original terms!

Ian D

Actually I can't fault Val. I turned up there in late '76 and he let me stay at his place which was pretty decent of him. I spent a fascinating night listening to his tales about the Doo-Wop collectors market which dwarfed Northern Soul at the time and involved big money, guns and gangsters on occasion.

I probably got off lightly 'cos when I entered the shop he was having a massive arguement with a Canadian black guy that was trawling for stuff for the Japanese. Apparently this guy always messed up Val's filing system and haggled to the 9th degree so as entered the shop there was a screaming match going on - "Get the f*ck out of my shop Motherf*cker" etc, etc.

Unbelievably the same guy turned up again the next day and ended up actually getting some records off Val even after the arguement. I was leaving for the UK that same day and the Canadian guy asked if I could give him a lift on the way to the airport so I said I'd split the cab fare with him. We got about 20 minutes away from the shop and without any warning the guy just bailed out of the cab @ around 20mph! I looked out the back window of the cab to see an afro-haired black guy in a long leather coat rolling around in the road before he got up and legged it with the 45's still in his hand!

Val was right...........

Ian D

Gotta agree with you about Val, he doesn't take any nonsense and doesn't suffer fools lightly. Val has been good to me over the years, whether directly or via his good friend John Anderson. Val has put some very rare 45s into my hands over the years, and always lets me outback, upstairs and down to mooch around. If you are respectful, he is the same. A good man in my experience, I like him a lot and he knows his music.

Edited February 7, 201015 yr by Tai-Pan

Gotta agree with you about Val, he doesn't take any nonsense and doesn't suffer fools lightly. Val has been good to me over the years, whether directly or via his good friend John Anderson. Val has put some very rare 45s into my hands over the years, and always lets me outback, upstairs and down to mooch around. If you are respectful, he is the same. A good man in my experience, I like him a lot and he knows his music.

nail on head there Andy,mutual respect,he can be a grumpy sod though

Re Val Shively. My comment was directed towards his subjective pricing policy, NOT him. I too was given a very warm welcome and bought lunch by him on my first visit...my point dwelt around - would he charge the same price for a 45 to a casual local as well as a UK collector who has made Val's a destination? When I asked why nothing was priced, I wasn't convonced by his rather wooly answer.

Fascinating. Keep it coming...

I was in Olympia Washington in 1987, well after the mid 70's 'Klondike', but still managed to pick up some nice pieces for just a dollar fifty, an Yvonne Baker YDSAW 'two shields' being one of them.

The owner of the store was well aware of the 'English scene' and had had visits from UK folk down from Seattle from time to time. They trawled through his bins for what he called 'obscure R&B and Blue Eyed Stuff'. I went to that store several times, coming away with about dozen records (I was backpacking) and a Lonnie Johnson 'Tomorrow Night' reissue LP, which I posted back to the UK. The early days of Internet kind of democratised record collecting, why pay people like Pat Brady or John Manship a ridiculous amount of money for something you could pick up for a few bucks? The advent of price guides and wedge-waving wants lists stopped our farting in church, sadly.

Ian Dewhirst should write a book about searching for Soul in the USA.

A great storyteller. Great thread!

Fascinating. Keep it coming...

I was in Olympia Washington in 1987, well after the mid 70's 'Klondike', but still managed to pick up some nice pieces for just a dollar fifty, an Yvonne Baker YDSAW 'two shields' being one of them.

The owner of the store was well aware of the 'English scene' and had had visits from UK folk down from Seattle from time to time. They trawled through his bins for what he called 'obscure R&B and Blue Eyed Stuff'. I went to that store several times, coming away with about dozen records (I was backpacking) and a Lonnie Johnson 'Tomorrow Night' reissue LP, which I posted back to the UK. The early days of Internet kind of democratised record collecting, why pay people like Pat Brady or John Manship a ridiculous amount of money for something you could pick up for a few bucks? The advent of price guides and wedge-waving wants lists stopped our farting in church, sadly.

Exactly : I could not have put it better myself .

Malc Burton

I'm from the USA. Lived in the UK for the first 22 years and been here for the last 28.

Its hard for me to disagree with the quote ""The People in England have become the guardian's of lost American soul music", but I think its more complex than that.

There are approx 62 million people in the UK. 305 million in the US. I dare say that numbers wise that while there's a larger percentage of soul collectors in the UK, by sheer numbers there are likely more total collectors in the US. This is a big assumption on my part, based on nothing but the numbers of people. One big difference in the two countries is the communities of collectors; in the US there's little in the way of a collective soul community as everyone is so spread out. I know collectors from all over the US via email and the like, but have only met a few in person. There isn't a strong countrywide community like there seems to be in the UK.

I do think that market pricing wise, the UK drives the market, certainly with Northern. Funk and deep by the Japanese, modern a split between the two and Boogie/Disco lead by the French and Italians.

When I first read the quote my first though was that sounds about right, just as "The People in America have become the guardian's of lost UK psychedelic music".

Exactly : I could not have put it better myself .

Malc Burton

Yes you could Malc. You'd use the word trumping instead of farting

Yes you could Malc. You'd use the word trumping instead of farting

Why - because it is Sunday ?

Malc Burton

"The People in England have become the guardian's of lost American soul music"

Particularly be interested to hear from members the other side of the pond.

Did the UK soulies stop it being forgotten and reminded Detroit, Chicago et all the heritage they had?

And without the UK soul scene would it totally have been forgotten due to it's lack of commercial success?

The NORTHERN SOUL people in England?!! Not just people! Northern Soul people, Credit where credit is due!

Most people in the USA are totally clueless of the heritage they own, all they value and understand is Money!

Don't telll them though, or they might stop selling us there history!!

Edited February 8, 201015 yr by Guest

I'm from the 'other side'. I figured I'd try to put some legs back on this thread in a conversational manner.

In two places I've lived (Cleveland and Seattle) the most knowledgable people about local music histories have always been people who are from the cities. The person with the most 'preservationist' knowledge of Cleveland soul music was a white Clevelander who started seeing R&B bands in the early 1960s and wrote about some of that in local papers. Unfortunately he was murdered many years ago, but I've read some of what he wrote and it's pretty amazing detail. There's many layers to the 'guardianship' of culture, and records are only a fraction. Music in the 1960s and even more so the 1970s was more about live shows than the records. Records were often nothing more than a way of padding the resume and getting better gigs, unless you were one of the few percent that actually got some substantial airplay and sales. I've been 'schooled' about Cleveland soul music venues from some people who were major figures there and as I said they talk much more about the live shows, the friendships, the excitement living in the times, the after hours joints, famous artists they saw and met, etc than about their records - if they even had records.

I guess that's one question to ask - do people like Tim Brown*and other people who may fancy themselves as guardians or historians have any interest in soul artists who did not cut any records? Why - or why not?

Just like I'll never understand what 'Swinging London' was like in 1966, You (and I) can't understand what Lee/Miles or E.105th and Euclid in Cleveland (or Jackson Street in Seattle) was like.

That's one way of looking at it.

OTOH, I see the reactions of people when they learn their old non-hit records of 30-45 years ago have been played and enjoyed by 1000s of people they've never met. That in of itself is a true 'real life' moment that carries a lot of power. Had there not been a Northern Soul scene, it would never have happened.

*Being not of the scene, the only thing I know about Tim Brown is from the price guide, so I am a blank slate when it comes to his level of expertise with this topic.