Just wondering if peeps saw this on the evil bay.. Anyone bid on it ?? If you did - did you get a second chance offer ??

Same song as The Lyrics on GNP Crescendo.. Can anyone confirm that Toby Bullard was the lead singer of The Lyrics ?? Was the Flodavieur label owned by Frank Polk ?? Given the rarity of The Antellects 45 on the same label, what sort of numbers pressed could one expect of the TB disc ??

Any input gratefully received..

It's a boot. It is the Lyrics. The guy found an acetate, obviously wasn't aware of the Lyrics, pressed it, gave the first lot the carpet treatment to make them look worn.

It's a boot. It is the Lyrics. The guy found an acetate, obviously wasn't aware of the Lyrics, pressed it, gave the first lot the carpet treatment to make them look worn.

I was going to bid on it, didn't know it was a boot. He also has a Johnny Watson It's better To cry on Valise. I suppose all those doo wop things he has on colored wax are also boots?

Just wondering if peeps saw this on the evil bay.. Anyone bid on it ?? If you did - did you get a second chance offer ??

Same song as The Lyrics on GNP Crescendo.. Can anyone confirm that Toby Bullard was the lead singer of The Lyrics ?? Was the Flodavieur label owned by Frank Polk ?? Given the rarity of The Antellects 45 on the same label, what sort of numbers pressed could one expect of the TB disc ??

Any input gratefully received..

DEFFO A BOOT - single sider too

got a spare here somewhere / great tune though

I was going to bid on it, didn't know it was a boot. He also has a Johnny Watson It's better To cry on Valise. I suppose all those doo wop things he has on colored wax are also boots?

I had 2 copies of the Toby Bullard from this seller - both being returned as they sounded really distorted and were practically unplayable. He came good for me eventually with a replacement item but there's been a couple of threads on here where people have had problems with this seller - non receipt of big items I think and problems getting refunds.

- Kev

Its not a boot, he found or sourced alternate take tapes and pressed it up. same singer but a different take.

Its not a boot, he found or sourced alternate take tapes and pressed it up. same singer but a different take.

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by soulmaguk

I was going to bid on it, didn't know it was a boot. He also has a Johnny Watson It's better To cry on Valise. I suppose all those doo wop things he has on colored wax are also boots?

I am not so sure on the "its a boot theory"....I know the guy (as do some others of course) who found the small lot maybe ten years ago. I have no reason to doubt him. he is a well known collector (was) and creditable seller (still is). Price wise around 50- 80 UKP at a guess (this only because of the boot theory and the sub-optimal sound quality I would think...other than that and it would be three figures given its rarity and the labels history).

Marc

people saying its a boot, so what. Still don´t think its is

Must have been some quantity as he's been selling this and San Fran TKO's, Ringleaders, etc for at least two years on and off.

no memory cells left but, is this the same toby bullard track thats been on the bay every weeks for a few years now, ???????if so i had a couple and sold em for around £40. opinion on its validity has also been divided for ages. ......ezzie

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by ezzie brown

people saying its a boot, so what. Still don´t think its is

Each to there own opinion marc, had this one for a couple of years now and have been told on many occasions, that it was cut from a master tape/acetate. as per chalky`s post

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by SONBERT

Must have been some quantity as he's been selling this and San Fran TKO's, Ringleaders, etc for at least two years on and off.

Also boots

Question :- if I put something that has never been issued onto vinyl but dont own the rights or don't seek permission from the legal owner,is it a boot ?

Also boots

Question :- if I put something that has never been issued onto vinyl but dont own the rights or don't seek permission from the legal owner,is it a boot ?

Yes you need the written consent of the recording's owner.

This is totally a boot as it's even out on an illegal Flodavieur label, the presser could get sued for copyright stealing too!

Ady

its a boot of the lyrics on gnp creshendo, christ, you've only got to look at them to see that they are 1990's presses

its a boot of the lyrics on gnp creshendo,

the lyrics is a totally different version

that's it then, mines off in the bin.

the lyrics is a totally different version

No, the Lyrics 45 on GNP utilises the exact same version as the Toby Bullard 45, but the track on the Toby Bullard 45 has been speeded up ever so slightly.

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by Sebastian

No, the Lyrics 45 on GNP utilises the exact same version as the Toby Bullard 45, but the track on the Toby Bullard 45 has been speeded up ever so slightly.

play both, record them and compare them on the computer and you will see they are differnet, not only in speed. But hey, I did not find them, I am not playing either of them, so no need for me to defend it anyw ay. Its up for everyone to make up his own opinion.

so are they all single sided boots n not boots

I am not so sure on the "its a boot theory"....I know the guy (as do some others of course) who found the small lot maybe ten years ago. I have no reason to doubt him. he is a well known collector (was) and creditable seller (still is). Price wise around 50- 80 UKP at a guess (this only because of the boot theory and the sub-optimal sound quality I would think...other than that and it would be three figures given its rarity and the labels history).

Marc

Chalky is right of course.

Why would anyone ever think this record was legit?

Just hold it in your hands and look at it.

The first copies that were sold had a blank b-side blank that was sandpapered down by hand, because the new press "blank" side was just TOO NEW! so why not try and make it resemble ARCTIC demo?

The label had received an obvious "carpet rub" to distress the label ridge

The vinyl had been "skated" to imitate wear. NOTHING about this record suggests it's real. Toby Bullard was pressed approx 10 years ago in vinyl Rolf Harris would have had fun with.

Flovavieur nor Dave Polk had absolutely anything to do with this recording.

Lyrics - GNP Crescendo was made in Holllywood 1967 produced by Harlan Peacok & Don Ralke NOT Dave Polk

the only difference and I tell between the two discs (I have both in my hands now) are the inferior sound quality of the Toby Bullard compared to the "Lyrics".

I'm actually amazed anyone was fooled by this rather poor attempt to deceive. At least on the Johnny Watson scam the perpetrators had the decency to record good sound and do a authentic style label. But then again that WAS done by the owner David Blake and then passed off by Uk guys as "rare".

Toby Bullard in my opinion is a poor attempt to deceive and I'm flabbergasted anyone fell for it. But in the year 2010 to consider it as an authentic 1971 Flodavieur release is very naive to say the least. Or is it that the owners of this "fake" want it to be still worth something. We've accumulated a few over the years and do not list or sell them, IT'S NOT REAL!

The fact that many of you will own a copy with a "non" sandpapered gleaming "blank" side is proof enough.

Whatever means it came to market one thing is for certain legit FLODAVIER record it is NOT.

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by john manship

so are they all single sided boots n not boots

Never seen a copy that was'nt shiny black plastic on the flip Keith.

Jeez ...this was doing the rounds for about £15 when the penny dropped and the Las Vegas seller hasa constant supply ,sometimes set sale ,other times live auction.....in the hope he can fool someone into paying too much for it.

Buy the Lyrics for peace of mind ....after all ,its not exactly an expensive record is it.

SAN FRAN TKO's is also a boot taken from KENT GOLDEN STATE SOUL CD .......Along with the GEORGE & TEDDY-LOVER that this ebay shyster also knocks out.

Ignorance is bliss eh

I had a feeling this would be another 'can of worm's' thread..

I'd personally never come across it before so obviously way behind the times in that regard. The fact the majority of this sellers other items were obviously brand new, with several obvious bootlegs of unissued material, prompted me to email the seller with some very pertinent questions. I wasn't expecting a response but he/she (maria ??) did reply with a message that did nothing but skirt around my questions without answering a single one !!

Appreciate the input guys - and glad I gave this a VERY wide berth..

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by FickleFingers

Never seen a copy that was'nt shiny black plastic on the flip Keith.

Jeez ...this was doing the rounds for about £15 when the penny dropped and the Las Vegas seller hasa constant supply ,sometimes set sale ,other times live auction.....in the hope he can fool someone into paying too much for it.

Buy the Lyrics for peace of mind ....after all ,its not exactly an expensive record is it.

SAN FRAN TKO's is also a boot taken from KENT GOLDEN STATE SOUL CD .......Along with the GEORGE & TEDDY-LOVER that this ebay shyster also knocks out.

Ignorance is bliss eh

To be fair, his other listings usually give a noncommittall comment i.e. the S F TKO's is simply listed as on 'Golden State' not entirely clear but alot of sellers are guilty of ambiguity. In other cases he has had legitmate copies of formerly 'big' records (Royal Esquires on Prix) and stated clearly a record is not 'original' but is a way to own something on 45 previously unreleased (Towanda Barnes - Love Slipped)

The naughty part is that the Las Vegas legend specifically states that the Toby Bullard is quote "NOT A BOOTLEG" and I believe the consensus is clear that it is. Wrong, morally and legally on a number of levels imho.

Regards,

Greg.

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by ClearVinyl

i just found i have a flodavieur issue of a billy larkin 45 called" thats a lie," nos 702..............seems bloody new as well to my inexpert eyes, ...........light .thin and mint , its a jazzy r&b thing...............anyone got thoughts on this.? ezzie

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by ezzie brown

play both, record them and compare them on the computer and you will see they are differnet, not only in speed.

I did that before I made previous comment.

I recorded the Lyrics and Toby Bullard 45s, slowed down the Toby Bullard track so that it had the exact same speed as the original Lyrics 45 and then I put both recordings together in one soundfile. I put the recording of the Toby Bullard 45 in the LEFT channel and the recording of the Lyrics 45 in the RIGHT channel and it's obvious that both speakers play the exact same recording.

Have a listen for yourself below:

https://www.shingaling.com/tobyLEFTlyricsRIGHT.mp3

I totally agree with John Manship. The Flodavieur release is a blatantly obvious bootleg.

Edited November 17, 201014 yr by Sebastian

Also boots

Question :- if I put something that has never been issued onto vinyl but dont own the rights or don't seek permission from the legal owner,is it a boot ?

If the rights were purchased,and master tapes put onto vinyl years later,with no previous release - constitutes an original?

Just to clear up the legal side.?

Yes you need the written consent of the recording's owner.

This is totally a boot as it's even out on an illegal Flodavieur label, the presser could get sued for copyright stealing too!

Ady

And while we are at it the SF TKOs is also a 100% boot.

Have a listen for yourself below:

https://www.shingalin...lyricsRIGHT.mp3

Good work Sebastian, THIS indeed does convince me.

To be fair, his other listings usually give a noncommittall comment i.e. the S F TKO's is simply listed as on 'Golden State' not entirely clear but alot of sellers are guilty of ambiguity. In other cases he has had legitmate copies of formerly 'big' records (Royal Esquires on Prix) and stated clearly a record is not 'original' but is a way to own something on 45 previously unreleased (Towanda Barnes - Love Slipped)

The naughty part is that the Las Vegas legend specifically states that the Toby Bullard is quote "NOT A BOOTLEG" and I believe the consensus is clear that it is. Wrong, morally and legally on a number of levels imho.

Regards,

Greg.

Greg, Is The Towanda Barnes Classed as a boot??

Cheers John Like you I can't believe folk were in the first place duped by this and some still continue to deny it is anything but a boot, maybe they are the ones who invested in one of these and somehow how their money was well spent First saw this when the guy first did them and one was sent through to Andy Dyson, both Andy and myself both said on first view that it was a boot, they had clearly been doctored (given the carpet treatment) to make them look aged.

To my ears when first listened it was evident they were the same take, just poor quality on the boot, no doubt cause the source was poor quality.

No doubt this topic will come up again like it does annually and some will still convince themselves it is legit

Is The Towanda Barnes Classed as a boot??

It is definitely a bootleg, pressed during the last 10-15 years.

I am not so sure on the "its a boot theory"....I know the guy (as do some others of course) who found the small lot maybe ten years ago. I have no reason to doubt him. he is a well known collector (was) and creditable seller (still is). Price wise around 50- 80 UKP at a guess (this only because of the boot theory and the sub-optimal sound quality I would think...other than that and it would be three figures given its rarity and the labels history).

Marc

I'm a bit confused here Mark. Are you talking about the dealer in Las Vegas, or perhaps someone else?

If the rights were purchased,and master tapes put onto vinyl years later,with no previous release - constitutes an original?

Just to clear up the legal side.?

Yes, if the publishers of the song are also paid, but not onto someone else's label that they had no right to do.

And of course San Franisco TKOs is a boot, Ace own the label/tapes. It's available on a Kent 45 for £6 with Salt & Pepper on the flip! But it's not got a big hole so somebody might prefer to pay £20+ with no royalties going to the artists and songwriters

i just found i have a flodavieur issue of a billy larkin 45 called" thats a lie," nos 702..............seems bloody new as well to my inexpert eyes, ...........light .thin and mint , its a jazzy r&b thing...............anyone got thoughts on this.? ezzie

Yes, Ezzie, i'm very interested as I do research and licensing with Flodavieur herself (the label owner's daughter). It came out on Vistone and Billy did have a genuine Flodavieur release but it could conceivably have been done as a boot, the number's weird, the only one on the 700 series. Then again if you were gonna boot, you'd probably pick an unknown 600 #.

Any chance of a loan to assess it all please? If it's a good mod jazzer we could use it and she'd earn a few more $s from her dad's legacy.

Cheers

Ady

Greg, Is The Towanda Barnes Classed as a boot??

Yes, a boot Tag - as Sebastian has also pointed out..

Mr Las Vegas has been pumping them out for a long while (I'm sure these were available late eighties / early nineties?).

He has now dropped the "only way to own this on 45" tag line so again a dubiously ambiguous listing.

It doesn't feature on her Maple album Uptown but it is of course available on the Trip LP by the Ohio Players feat. Towanda Barnes (slightly different take though to my ears?).

ATB

Greg.

It is definitely a bootleg, pressed during the last 10-15 years.

Cheers It Looked A bit new but wasn't sure if it was a legit press!!

I'm a bit confused here Mark. Are you talking about the dealer in Las Vegas, or perhaps someone else?

some one else in sunny colifornia mate...and no, I have no money or any other sort of interest in the rceord as some may have tried to inidicate LOL !

Marc

Yes, Ezzie, i'm very interested as I do research and licensing with Flodavieur herself (the label owner's daughter). It came out on Vistone and Billy did have a genuine Flodavieur release but it could conceivably have been done as a boot, the number's weird, the only one on the 700 series. Then again if you were gonna boot, you'd probably pick an unknown 600 #.

Any chance of a loan to assess it all please? If it's a good mod jazzer we could use it and she'd earn a few more $s from her dad's legacy.

Cheers

Ady

pmd ya ez

some one else in sunny colifornia mate...and no, I have no money or any other sort of interest in the rceord as some may have tried to inidicate LOL !

Marc

Ah, gotcha

So did he have it booted & sell them to Las Vegas?

the lyrics is a totally different version

NO IT ISNT,

THE TOBY BULLARD DISC HAS A MORE ENHANCED BASS LINE, THAT ALMOST OVERLOADS IN PLACES. THIS MAKES IT SOUND DIFFERENT BUT ITS THE SAME. MATEY WHO SELLS IT HAS BEEN DOING SO FOR AT LEAST 5, POSS 7 YEARS. HIS ORIG STORY TO ME WAS THAT IT WAS PRESSED IN 71 BY THE OWNER/RIGHTS HOLDER OF THE FLODAVIEUR LABEL-BUT I DOUBT THAT-THING IS I BOUGHT 5/6 COPIES BEFORE I KNEW IT WAS THE LYRICS-FUNKY FEET IN RHYL HAD A FEW COPIES AVAILABLE NOT LONG AGO-SO ASK MARK FOR A DECENT PRICE -FUNNILY ENOUGH THOUGH I ALSO GOT A COPY OF THE INCONQUERABLES ON FLOODAVIEUR OFF HIM FIRST TIME I SHOPPED FOR WITH HIM AND THOUGHT HE HAD MORE THAN ONE COPY OF THAT!

i just found i have a flodavieur issue of a billy larkin 45 called" thats a lie," nos 702..............seems bloody new as well to my inexpert eyes, ...........light .thin and mint , its a jazzy r&b thing...............anyone got thoughts on this.? ezzie

Ezzie very kindly loaned it me and it's two very good 1961 mod/jazz vocal tracks and defo original pressing, i think the pink label just makes it look more recent, particularly as pink was so popular in the mid 60s in LA. It came out on LA's Vistone label first, I bet Sebastian knows a bit about it!?

Ady

I have copies at £15.00 if anyone wants one, but only a couple left. Think it was a 500 press if I remember rightly.

I'm not sure you should be advertising bootlegs on here Mark!

I have copies at £15.00 if anyone wants one, but only a couple left. Think it was a 500 press if I remember rightly.

I think that's a great price.