My mate bought this as an original actually in Detroit but I'm pretty sure it's a boot, I've checked the bootleg guide but this has a few things in the run off I'm not sure about. It does not have an Archer stamp, if it does I can't see it. It has the tiny numbers 95 scratched in, AI B scratched in, and a weird mark like an m with something on top of it?

There may be more but my eyes are pretty bad and I can't make anything else out clearly. Got to be a boot though, right?

My mate bought this as an original actually in Detroit but I'm pretty sure it's a boot, I've checked the bootleg guide but this has a few things in the run off I'm not sure about. It does not have an Archer stamp, if it does I can't see it. It has the tiny numbers 95 scratched in, AI B scratched in, and a weird mark like an m with something on top of it?

There may be more but my eyes are pretty bad and I can't make anything else out clearly. Got to be a boot though, right?

I know Pete it's a real nightmare I picked this one out of a mom & pop junk shop in a small town in Pennsylvania. See the black felt tip X, I wonder why anybody would do that for a boot or where'd they get one from ?. The vinyl reminds me of those Capitol boots, which we know are just that. Bizarre......................................

I know Pete it's a real nightmare I picked this one out of a mom & pop junk shop in a small town in Pennsylvania. See the black felt tip X, I wonder why anybody would do that for a boot or where'd they get one from ?. The vinyl reminds me of those Capitol boots, which we know are just that. Bizarre......................................

I think the one I"ve got has a slightly deeper shade of green than yours Chris, but I agree, strange find!

mine has A1-A ARCHER stamp (quite big & raised) 95 then something i cant make out.

heres scan o label & cover,lol.ps,how do i get my scan pictures bigger than shown.its either this size & huge when click on it.

Edited August 29, 201212 yr by sepia

mine has A1-A ARCHER stamp (quite big & raised) 95 then something i cant make out.

heres scan o label & cover,lol.ps,how do i get my scan pictures bigger than shown.its either this size & huge when click on it.

When you click on the scan of the record, it opens up massive

Pete i have a demo here and it has all the markings you say, but mine has the raised archer stamp probably is real

the Archer stamp is only on the vocal side as well, markings are the same thou

Edited August 29, 201212 yr by Ted Massey

Got a boot copy in my hand with what appears similar markings. In the case of this 45 would describe them as very fine and hard to see rather than small. This copy also has the give away small , uneven "ARCHER" stamp. I'd agree with the post above re. vinyl being like the Capitol boots with a rough edge.

Pete i have a demo here and it has all the markings you say, but mine has the raised archer stamp probably is real

the Archer stamp is only on the vocal side as well, markings are the same thou

Favour Ted, can you describe all the markings and their positioning, please? I've got a stamped ARCHER stock copy here, but I'm aware that there is a good counterfeit also with an ARCHER stamp, albeit the letters aren't in a straight line. My ARCHER stamp matches the size and layout of others I have, so I'm pretty confident it is a genuine copy.

Favour Ted, can you describe all the markings and their positioning, please? I've got a stamped ARCHER stock copy here, but I'm aware that there is a good counterfeit also with an ARCHER stamp, albeit the letters aren't in a straight line. My ARCHER stamp matches the size and layout of others I have, so I'm pretty confident it is a genuine copy.

I was selling one on Ebay with the right ARCHER stamp but the buyer didn't complete the purchase because he said the label didn't look right !

heres my archer stamp.sorry it isnt a good photo & dont know if can see it ok.

heres my archer stamp.sorry it isnt a good photo & dont know if can see it ok.

MIne certainly doesn't have that.

p.s. if you switch the macro button on your camera you should be able to get a good in focus close up of that

MIne certainly doesn't have that.

p.s. if you switch the macro button on your camera you should be able to get a good in focus close up of that

i used my mobile pete.

heres my archer stamp.sorry it isnt a good photo & dont know if can see it ok.

Thats the proper big ARCHER stamp.

Demo and 1st Issue copies have it.

Edited August 31, 201212 yr by Guest

HI ALL

The history of this great record and one of the true Northern Soul records of all time, even though you will have a problem following the beat if you are a dancer(true)

The ARCHER stamp and the ASHFORD LABEL has been a talking point since I have been aware of the record back in 1972, so with all the collectors who have had this record, on paper you would think their would be a definite answer, as it does not seem to be a question for debate on for example EDWARD HAMLETONS MARY JANE releases??

In my TORCH & EARLY WIGAN COLLECTION, I have a copy that I believe is a legit 1st issue stamped with ARCHER (BIG LETTERS), I also have an identical copy with ARCHER (SMALL LETTERS) , As I am no expert, to me that is also legit, there are copies with the swamp ARCHER in a hi/low patten? I don't think this is a boot, and may not be on many peoples wants, surly it's no booby prize,

In 1973 I traded a quantity of ALL-NIGHTER ATMOSPHERE! for a white label ASHFORD DEMO it had a red A stamped on it, along with a UK MGM PINK DEMO - FATHERS ANGELS.

The DEMO was stamped in the way TED has mentioned ARCHER on the vocal side only, the red A has nothing to do with anything, some DJ must of have added it,s it's no on other copies, the DEMO in my opinion is a very rare, and worth much more than pills and caps,

I hope this is of some use, to sum up, it is my opinion that with stamp or without, stamped are proper & some of the unstamped could be? DAVE

HI ALL

The history of this great record and one of the true Northern Soul records of all time, even though you will have a problem following the beat if you are a dancer(true)

The ARCHER stamp and the ASHFORD LABEL has been a talking point since I have been aware of the record back in 1972, so with all the collectors who have had this record, on paper you would think their would be a definite answer, as it does not seem to be a question for debate on for example EDWARD HAMLETONS MARY JANE releases??

In my TORCH & EARLY WIGAN COLLECTION, I have a copy that I believe is a legit 1st issue stamped with ARCHER (BIG LETTERS), I also have an identical copy with ARCHER (SMALL LETTERS) , As I am no expert, to me that is also legit, there are copies with the swamp ARCHER in a hi/low patten? I don't think this is a boot, and may not be on many peoples wants, surly it's no booby prize,

In 1973 I traded a quantity of ALL-NIGHTER ATMOSPHERE! for a white label ASHFORD DEMO it had a red A stamped on it, along with a UK MGM PINK DEMO - FATHERS ANGELS.

The DEMO was stamped in the way TED has mentioned ARCHER on the vocal side only, the red A has nothing to do with anything, some DJ must of have added it,s it's no on other copies, the DEMO in my opinion is a very rare, and worth much more than pills and caps,

I hope this is of some use, to sum up, it is my opinion that with stamp or without, stamped are proper & some of the unstamped could be? DAVE

This is why it's all so interesting - way over my head when I've had a drink, but good stuff Dave.

I hope this is of some use, to sum up, it is my opinion that with stamp or without, stamped are proper & some of the unstamped could be? DAVE

Right, that clears that up then.....................

heres my archer stamp.sorry it isnt a good photo & dont know if can see it ok.

Here are a few more pics - hard to capture - but Eddie Parker (Ashford), Four Sonics (Sepia) and Robert Winters (Rons).

They are all raised and have the same height and length plus similar vinyl and groove-cut as well...albeit the Robert Winters is under the label!

In addition:

• Would still like to know the markings/positioning on an Ashford WD...pageing Mr.Massey!
  
• The '3 W's' scratching...any chance you can upload a pic of that, Pete please?
  

Edited September 2, 201212 yr by Flynny

Following on from my own post - I have two copies of the Four Sonics on Sepia in front of me - obviously with different label credit font/arrangement. One is ARCHER stamped (right-hand side in pic) whilst the other is not - they share all other markings in the deadwax and appear to be from the same master.

One other difference is that the non-ARCHER copy has a 'flat-edge' on one of its labels - something often spotted on other Chicago/Detroit labels...the comparison picture is Rufus Wonder on Lendo, which has been questioned for its authentisity on a WD (compared to the blue-stocker on Lando).

So, questions:

• Four Sonics and Rufus Wonder: discs simply pressed at a couple of different pressing plants?
  
• Which pressing plant: was synonymous for those 'flat-edge' labels?
  
• Eddie Parker on Ashford: has the non-ARCHER stamped vintage-looking (as opposed to the obvious more recent) got a flat-edge on the flipside, and/or was it simply pressed at two different pressing plants...leading to ARCHER and non-ARCHER stamped originals?!
  

I've had two copies recently found in Chicago and Detroit, and neither had an Archer stamp. Both are seemingly legit "well used" copies.

Here are a few more pics - hard to capture - but Eddie Parker (Ashford), Four Sonics (Sepia) and Robert Winters (Rons).

They are all raised and have the same height and length plus similar vinyl and groove-cut as well...albeit the Robert Winters is under the label!

In addition:

• Would still like to know the markings/positioning on an Ashford WD...pageing Mr.Massey!
  
• The '3 W's' scratching...any chance you can upload a pic of that, Pete please?
  

Hi Dave

I have an Eddie Parker white DJ copy here.

Looking at the A-Side there is a raised ARCHER stamp at around 9 O'clock.

At around 8 O'clock there is 95 scratched in.

At 7 O'clock there is what you call the "3 'W''s" scratched in. I have had a hand lens on this and it actually looks like 'WC' with the 'W' scratched through, and then underneath that there is ' MC'(so it is like a block of two letters on top of two letters - like a 2 x 2 matrix) - bit like this below but I think the 'W' has a line through it and there is less of a gap between the two rows as the numbers basically meet:

WC

MC

Then at around 10 O'clock it says A1-A.

All the scratch marks are fine and quite feint.

Hope that helps mate. Been straining my eyes with the hand lens and now I have a slight headache

Cheers

Richard

Edited September 2, 201212 yr by Premium Stuff

Here are a few more pics - hard to capture - but Eddie Parker (Ashford), Four Sonics (Sepia) and Robert Winters (Rons).

They are all raised and have the same height and length plus similar vinyl and groove-cut as well...albeit the Robert Winters is under the label!

In addition:

• Would still like to know the markings/positioning on an Ashford WD...pageing Mr.Massey!
  
• The '3 W's' scratching...any chance you can upload a pic of that, Pete please?
  

My camera's not good enough to capture it Dave, can't get it to focus, but the info that's coming out of this thread is very interesting indeed.

My camera's not good enough to capture it Dave, can't get it to focus, but the info that's coming out of this thread is very interesting indeed.

Agreed that a camera would not pick up this easily. It took me a couple of minutes with a hand-lens (the type used for botany) to pick it up in sufficient light and detail to see what it was.

It is in hand-written script - so I can also see how it could be thought of as 3 x 'W's Pete.

First 'W' correct way up and in the top left. Directly below that, and touching it, is an upside down 'W'. Directly to the right of these two, and basically twice the size (so it runs along the whole height of the two 'W's stacked on top of each other) is a 'W' on it's side. This one faces so that the bottom of the 'W' is to the left - so it looks a bit like an 'E'.

So it could be 3 x 'W's - or the WC on top of an MC that I described above.

I could draw it but I'm not sure how to without lots of hassle

Cheers

Richard

Edited September 2, 201212 yr by Premium Stuff

I will stick to my French copy, a lot easier.

https://www.raresoulman.co.uk/d/60799/PARKER,_EDDIE

My camera's not good enough to capture it Dave, can't get it to focus, but the info that's coming out of this thread is very interesting indeed.

One theory is that when the Brits asked US pressing plants to re-press a record people at those plants thought they were valuable and sneaked out extra copies to be sold at record fairs, etc. This way they found themselves into legitimate circles. My copy flummexes me, somebody put a cross on it, why do that for a boot ?

My copy flummexes me, somebody put a cross on it, why do that for a boot ?

to make it look even more authentic?

These are counterfeits - designed to deceive!!!

Bootlegs are unlicensed use of an artists material

The terms are widely misused, especially on the rare soul scene

Cheers

Richard

These are counterfeits - designed to deceive!!!

Bootlegs are unlicensed use of an artists material

The terms are widely misused, especially on the rare soul scene

Cheers

Richard

ok, but there is still a lot of overlap. Many other counterfeits are also bootlegs.

On 03/09/2012 at 21:41, Kris Holmes said:

ok, but there is still a lot of overlap. Many other counterfeits are also bootlegs.

Sure - but my point was that is why it's difficult to tell some of these 45s apart - because they are designed to confuse - surely they will all be bootlegs, but not all counterfeits (i.e. one's that look totally different to originals)?

Richard

Edited January 28, 20187 yr by Premium Stuff

ok, but there is still a lot of overlap. Many other counterfeits are also bootlegs.

All counterfeits are bootlegs in that they are illegal pressings, except a counterfeit is a pressing that sets out to look like the original, often in an attempt to pass it off as such, whereas the more general term bootleg refers to any illegal pressing of a track.

All counterfeits are bootlegs in that they are illegal pressings, except a counterfeit is a pressing that sets out to look like the original, often in an attempt to pass it off as such, whereas the more general term bootleg refers to any illegal pressing of a track.

unless in the rare instance the original rights holder presses up a lookalike...... like if the Mr Lucky 45 in the other thread had been redone with a more authentic label (although is the guy in question there the actual rights holder?)

unless in the rare instance the original rights holder presses up a lookalike...... like if the Mr Lucky 45 in the other thread had been redone with a more authentic label (although is the guy in question there the actual rights holder?)

Sure Kris - but this is a bootleg/counterfeit discussion thread, not a legit lookalike thread Over and out

Posted Yesterday, 10:19 PM

Chris L, on Yesterday, 10:29 AM, said:

My copy flummexes me, somebody put a cross on it, why do that for a boot ?

to make it look even more authentic?

You would think so but I bought it in a small junk shop in the middle of Pennsylvania, would like to know how it got there ?

All counterfeits are bootlegs in that they are illegal pressings, except a counterfeit is a pressing that sets out to look like the original, often in an attempt to pass it off as such, whereas the more general term bootleg refers to any illegal pressing of a track.

You're right Pete, if it's not legit then it's a bootleg no matter what it looks like.

All the scratch marks are fine and quite feint.

Hope that helps mate. Been straining my eyes with the hand lens and now I have a slight headache

Yep, that matches the stamped stock copy I have here...which was sold to me as a bbotleg/counterfeit as the ARCHER letters aren't quite in line...yet looks like every other ARCHER stamp I've seen!

The reason I also raised the Four Sonics comparison...one ARCHER stamped the other not, was to maybe lead to the fact that there were indeed two different press runs of Eddie Parker (same family as Sepia) possibly done at different plants...and maybe the lack of the ARCHER stamp led folk to incorrectly believe that the non-stamped ones were not the real thing.

Of course, I may be completely wrong and am happy for someone to step forward with hard facts...maybe Lorraine Chandler might recall as to whether two pressing plants were utilised at the time.

My camera's not good enough to capture it Dave, can't get it to focus, but the info that's coming out of this thread is very interesting indeed.

Indeed. Would be great to put the record straight on this.

(Please no jokes about warped records )

Yep, that matches the stamped stock copy I have here...which was sold to me as a bbotleg/counterfeit as the ARCHER letters aren't quite in line...yet looks like every other ARCHER stamp I've seen!

The reason I also raised the Four Sonics comparison...one ARCHER stamped the other not, was to maybe lead to the fact that there were indeed two different press runs of Eddie Parker (same family as Sepia) possibly done at different plants...and maybe the lack of the ARCHER stamp led folk to incorrectly believe that the non-stamped ones were not the real thing.

Of course, I may be completely wrong and am happy for someone to step forward with hard facts...maybe Lorraine Chandler might recall as to whether two pressing plants were utilised at the time.

It's a fair theory David

For comparison, I'm pretty sure I have two copies of The Superlatives - Lonely In A Crowd on Westbound - one has the ZTSC stamp, the other if I remember correctly is ARCHER stamped - would have to check though

Cheers

Richard

My second copy of "HAPPY DAYS" has the ARCHER STAMP on the "A Side" whereas my Existing copy has the ARCHER STAMP on the "B Side".

The Labels are Identical and both sides play as the Label suggests, however the Deadwax has also been altered.

I wonder if this was a simple mistake, or was "HAPPY DAYS" ever considered as the A SIDE. TOPIC FROM >>> <<<

ARCHER STAMP

This copy has "W-145-A" Scratched in the DEADWAX on the "HAPPY DAYS" (B SIDE) ARCHER STAMP

"W-145-B" Scratched in the DEADWAX on the "Trying Real Hard" (A SIDE)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The copy below has "W-145-B" Scratched in the DEADWAX on the "HAPPY DAYS" (B SIDE)

The Matrix as above Looks like they altered the A to B by scratching across the bottom of the A

"W-145-B A" Scratched in the DEADWAX on the "Trying Real Hard" (A SIDE) ARCHER STAMP

ARCHER STAMP

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My mate bought this as an original actually in Detroit but I'm pretty sure it's a boot, I've checked the bootleg guide but this has a few things in the run off I'm not sure about. It does not have an Archer stamp, if it does I can't see it. It has the tiny numbers 95 scratched in, AI B scratched in, and a weird mark like an m with something on top of it? There may be more but my eyes are pretty bad and I can't make anything else out clearly. Got to be a boot though, right?

Pete

This is pretty interesting...................

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321062771996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

My mate bought this as an original actually in Detroit but I'm pretty sure it's a boot, I've checked the bootleg guide but this has a few things in the run off I'm not sure about. It does not have an Archer stamp, if it does I can't see it. It has the tiny numbers 95 scratched in, AI B scratched in, and a weird mark like an m with something on top of it? There may be more but my eyes are pretty bad and I can't make anything else out clearly. Got to be a boot though, right?

OMG Pete imagine those Alex Pattens & Jerry Cook's aren't boots !! :ohmy:

Pete

This is pretty interesting...................

https://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1438.l2649

It was supposed to have been repressed without Archer stamp in the late 60's early 70's, like the copy in this auction.

So my small stamped and slightly uneven "ARCHER" copy is proberbly a boot?

So my small stamped and slightly uneven "ARCHER" copy is proberbly a boot?

Fraid so...

Mine has A-1-A and NSC inside a circle on the A side. NO archer stamp of any description on either side.

Always thought this might be a boot but never certain.

Any thoughts?

So my small stamped and slightly uneven "ARCHER" copy is proberbly a boot?

Any chance of a picture of the 'small ARCHER' stamp and the layout of the scratched in info, please?

Then we may be able to finally put that one to bed as being a counterfeit at least!

Fraid so...

It's no biggie. It cost me £1.50 from a record stall (now sadly departed) in my local indoor market. I also picked up Beth Bynum I'll Set You Free for the same price that day.

Any chance of a picture of the 'small ARCHER' stamp and the layout of the scratched in info, please?

Then we may be able to finally put that one to bed as being a counterfeit at least!

Having trouble posting pictures at the moment. Will keep trying.

Any chance of a picture of the 'small ARCHER' stamp and the layout of the scratched in info, please?

Then we may be able to finally put that one to bed as being a counterfeit at least!

Not sure how clear tht is but it is the best I can do.

Edited February 5, 201312 yr by henrun

Mine has A-1-A and NSC inside a circle on the A side. NO archer stamp of any description on either side. Always thought this might be a boot but never certain.

Any thoughts?

Julian, it'slooking very much like there are originals without the stamp. Read this................

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321062771996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Julian, it'slooking very much like there are originals without the stamp. Read this................

https://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1438.l2649

Soul Bowl used to sell the green and white copies without an Archer stamp, I bought one at the time, but they were never regarded as originals.

Soul Bowl used to sell the green and white copies without an Archer stamp, I bought one at the time, but they were never regarded as originals.

You know I've seen about 3 or 4 types of look-a-like boots. Having said that there does seem to be a copy that hails from the US without the stamp. It's

always been assumed it came from those 70s boots that Selectadisc sold (Hesitations, Barbara Mills, etc;) these has almost perfect labels

and in the case of Jerry Cook and Alex Patten actual original labels. Boots wouldn't have found their way to the US in the 70s. I guess it's so

long ago we'll never really know, if you want a 100% guarantee then you have to get it with stamp.

Edited February 6, 201312 yr by Chris L