Reason I ask, a mate has picked up an extremely clean copy in a batch of otherwise run-of-the-mill titles.

 

Looks too good to be true?  I'm not aware of any boot of this unless something has dribbled out recently?

 

Such as??

For fucks sake... an accordion. Or possibly an ocorina

There's nothing really out of the ordinary about that 'synth' sound. It actually sounds like a weak reedy flute. The fact that its so low in the mix and that it only really features in the first half of the record makes it almost inconceivable that it was a 70's overdub. It sounds '60's to me, though we'll only ever know from one source.

Either way. I hope it is real for whoever owns it. It's truly one of the most incredible records ever made. That tuba bass line! The vocal is sublime. The lyrics as beautiful and heartfelt as 'Make Sure'. Records don't really get anymore soulful than this.

For fucks sake... an accordion. Or possibly an ocorina

 

Synthesiser

 

 

Also, it really wasn't uncommon for the L.A. indie labels to be badly distributed in my view. The labels with a bit of clout would turn up in the ghetto shops but most didn't make it, so it wouldn't be uncommon to find several hundred count boxes of a record. I would guess that most labels would have pressed at least 500 but probably 1000 with most of 'em unsold after a year and then either returned to the owner or dumped! 

 

Ian D 

Melvin Davis tell the story of "find a quiet place", which he actually took to the distributors around Detroit and surrounding areas himself, as the record was a flop, it wasn't worth the gas money to go and fetch them back ! he says it was a 500 press run... Distributors would gather stock that hadn't sold and keep it for a set period of time for the owners to re-claim..then drill holes through the labels to show they were stock clearance and not full price items and sell them off in job lots by the 1,000s !

Rob

Synthesiser

aye, that were a joke. Cant do the emoticons sorry

It always makes me laugh when most/vast majority on the Northern scene weren't interested in unknowns in the 80s when they could still be found yourself or picked up off others for rarely more than £40 but are happy to rave about them 25+ years later and fork out £1,000s when they have been spun/played to death by others. Baaa, Baaa. Ion

 

Well said mate 

Melvin Davis tell the story of "find a quiet place", which he actually took to the distributors around Detroit and surrounding areas himself, as the record was a flop, it wasn't worth the gas money to go and fetch them back ! he says it was a 500 press run... Distributors would gather stock that hadn't sold and keep it for a set period of time for the owners to re-claim..then drill holes through the labels to show they were stock clearance and not full price items and sell them off in job lots by the 1,000s !

Rob

 

That's kinda my gut feeling bout this. The pressings look brand new, pristine and the label is way too clean for an old record. I bet someone pressed up a bunch in the 70's or early 80's and they just got dumped somewhere. There'll be 500 of 'em in an L.A. garage or a dumpster you can rest assured.....

 

I used to go to those huge charity record events in Chicago in the late 80's and there'd be 1000's of 100 count boxes from the various distributors - 100's of 1000's of mint 45's that had flopped and were no good to anyone back then........

 

Ian D 

aye, that were a joke. Cant do the emoticons sorry

 

Sometimes if you can't see the emoticons they are there but you just have to scroll the page up a bit and you'll see them.  I didn't see them for ages.

That's kinda my gut feeling bout this. The pressings look brand new, pristine and the label is way too clean for an old record. I bet someone pressed up a bunch in the 70's or early 80's and they just got dumped somewhere. There'll be 500 of 'em in an L.A. garage or a dumpster you can rest assured.....

 

I used to go to those huge charity record events in Chicago in the late 80's and there'd be 1000's of 100 count boxes from the various distributors - 100's of 1000's of mint 45's that had flopped and were no good to anyone back then........

 

Ian D 

 

I doubt this ever saw a distributor or was ever intended for distribution. Probably something she had done to sell at gigs she was doing. I doubt there's any boxes sat in any warehouse or lock up.

I can't understand why people keep saying it looks too new? Do any of you go any question sellers when they offer a record in pristine condition? You see them every week, records that have been in storage and never seen the light of day since the day they were pressed. Even if it was done in the 70's it is still 40 years or so old.

"‹I'm constantly amazed at the records Pat Brady and John Anderson  turn up for sale in spanking mint condition ! We forget that all 45s were in this condition once !

I doubt this ever saw a distributor or was ever intended for distribution. Probably something she had done to sell at gigs she was doing. I doubt there's any boxes sat in any warehouse or lock up.

I can't understand why people keep saying it looks too new? Do any of you go any question sellers when they offer a record in pristine condition? You see them every week, records that have been in storage and never seen the light of day since the day they were pressed. Even if it was done in the 70's it is still 40 years or so old.

 

What gigs? She's virtually unknown and doesn't seem to have had much verifiable activity ever. In fact, there's bugger all about her anywhere. Maybe Roburt can dig something up...?

 

I've got thousands of records from the 70's many of which have never even been out of the sleeve, but I can pretty much guarantee that none of 'em look as beautifully brand spanking new as that scan up above. I'd be delighted if my records looked as new as those. The only way I've seen records come up that nice, is if they've been stored in an air-proof plastic bag for 40 years or if they've been well-stored in boxes in a dry warm location, which is rare.

 

Even more controversially, just looking at the grooves and the finish on the vinyl, I'd say it was pressed at the same plant as the Sweet Stuff and Solomon Burke Soultown 45's which would put it between 1975-81. So there. 

 

Ian D 

which would put it between 1975-81. So there. 

 

Ian D 

 

I don't think that is in dispute!

I don't think that is in dispute!

 

I thought some were indicating that it was a late 60's pressing earlier in the thread?

 

Ian D 

I thought some were indicating that it was a late 60's pressing earlier in the thread?

 

Ian D 

 

Well maybe they are, but I don't think it is.  And as I was the first one to come up with all these crackpot theories anyway 

Well maybe they are, but I don't think it is.  And as I was the first one to come up with all these crackpot theories anyway 

 

and some more on the Masterpiece label Mike highlighted....

 

https://www.discogs.com/label/Masterpiece+Records

 

From what I can see this is a N.Y.C. label though.  Check the label for the Chemistry release.

 

Then again the Chemistry one could be totally unrelated to the others.

Johnny & Joe ALWAYS worked out of New York. I was in L.A. starting in late 1966. and found a lot of records from the '50s and early '60s, looking through hundreds of thousands of 45s.  I don't remember seeing that particular label font and label layout on ANY record (certainly no California record) used until Soussain's boots in the late '70s.  I don't remember any "Masterpiece" label from California (only a budget pop label from New York) from the '50s or '60s.  That new York label shown above must be from the late '70s.  The label in question doesn't look like a California 1960s label to me.  I'd guess that it was a late '70s Soussain boot.

What gigs? She's virtually unknown and doesn't seem to have had much verifiable activity ever. In fact, there's bugger all about her anywhere. Maybe Roburt can dig something up...?

 

I've got thousands of records from the 70's many of which have never even been out of the sleeve, but I can pretty much guarantee that none of 'em look as beautifully brand spanking new as that scan up above. I'd be delighted if my records looked as new as those. The only way I've seen records come up that nice, is if they've been stored in an air-proof plastic bag for 40 years or if they've been well-stored in boxes in a dry warm location, which is rare.

 

Even more controversially, just looking at the grooves and the finish on the vinyl, I'd say it was pressed at the same plant as the Sweet Stuff and Solomon Burke Soultown 45's which would put it between 1975-81. So there. 

 

Ian D 

Most or all the records I've found that had been stored for 30-40 years had earlier been sitting at distributors' warehouses  or in producers' garages, and usually had dust inside the jackets, and paper scratches from movement inside the box, or a little handing while in the sleeves.  Usually, they don't look so pristine.  Everything. to me, points to them all being a boot, with Soussain having had access to the master tape.

I'd guess that it was a late '70s Soussain boot.

 

Some may argue with that Robb! 

 

Ian D 

Most or all the records I've found that had been stored for 30-40 years had earlier been sitting at distributors' warehouses  or in producers' garages, and usually had dust inside the jackets, and paper scratches from movement inside the box, or a little handing while in the sleeves.  Usually, they don't look so pristine.  Everything. to me, points to them all being a boot, with Soussain having had access to the master tape.

 

I concur a million percent. There's usually some minor scuffs, paper scratches or simply dust that degrades the newness of the labels to a certain degree. That scan looks as though it's just come off the press yesterday LOL...

 

Ian D 

What's that stuff on a lot of mint Chicago records, it's like an oily film

What's that stuff on a lot of mint Chicago records, it's like an oily film

 

Isn't that oil on shellac records?

Some may argue with that Robb! 

 

Ian D 

I was there in L.A. in the mid-late 1960s.  I never saw any Bobby Sanders/Soultown material on a one-off label.  I never saw that label design or font on any other L.A. label until Soussain's boots of the '70s.  Why would these 2 cuts not appear on a Bobby Sanders-related label?  It just doesn't look like L.A. '60s to me.  It isn't the type of cut that would end up on an L.A. one-off label, in any case.  I don't think that Fortier owned the masters alone (to be able to have it released outside Soultown.  But, for the sake of agrument, let's assume that he DID.  Wouldn't he have tried to get the record into shops by having some sort of distribution (taking it to an existing label/distributor.  The label just doesn't look right for the time and location.  Nothing about it looks Kosher. 

Isn't that oil on shellac records?

 

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing, you find this stuff on MarVLus, One derful 45's...hard to describe, but you have to wash them before you can play them

It must have been mastered at Artisan (on the west coast) due to matrix but it's also possible it was then sent for pressing just about anywhere, maybe a budget pressing plant hence S.S. using the company as well.

I don't recall any of the previously mentioned boots with the same typeface having any matrix stamp.....

Triode

I don't recall any of the previously mentioned boots with the same typeface having any matrix stamp.....

Triode

 

Good point.

 

There's nothing really out of the ordinary about that 'synth' sound. It actually sounds like a weak reedy flute. The fact that its so low in the mix and that it only really features in the first half of the record makes it almost inconceivable that it was a 70's overdub. It sounds '60's to me, though we'll only ever know from one source.

Either way. I hope it is real for whoever owns it. It's truly one of the most incredible records ever made. That tuba bass line! The vocal is sublime. The lyrics as beautiful and heartfelt as 'Make Sure'. Records don't really get anymore soulful than this.

 

The only post that matters, the one that talks about the music. Everyone else talks about Shellac, vinyl, gimp masks, basements in LA, etc etc etc but Matt talks about the sublime beauty of the record. Correctly. It cant be described any more accurately. This definitely shows how easy it is to forget what its all about, for some people.

Bunch of heartless, emotion free cynics that you are.

Okay, lets call the whole thing off, surely all this work from PI's Smith Klien and Frank additionaly prove that Roy Agee Losing again is indeed a Soussan bootleg and should be smitten from the history books along with SG and taken to a safe haven and burnt to a cinder (If people with copies want to arrange delivery I am happy to collect all copies and will arrange said burning, you can trust me). Either that or they have taken too much of their product from the 1970's.......

Probably a good point to close the thread……Jock reminds us it's about the music not the vinyl (unless of course you also happen to collect vinyl, in which case the records origins are also important too Jock)…..and before another conspiracy theory surfaces….ooo wee it's really Shalamar on an early recording….before Simon Soussan recorded them on RCA……or whatever….

What gigs? She's virtually unknown and doesn't seem to have had much verifiable activity ever. In fact, there's bugger all about her anywhere. Maybe Roburt can dig something up...?

 

I've got thousands of records from the 70's many of which have never even been out of the sleeve, but I can pretty much guarantee that none of 'em look as beautifully brand spanking new as that scan up above. I'd be delighted if my records looked as new as those. The only way I've seen records come up that nice, is if they've been stored in an air-proof plastic bag for 40 years or if they've been well-stored in boxes in a dry warm location, which is rare.

 

Even more controversially, just looking at the grooves and the finish on the vinyl, I'd say it was pressed at the same plant as the Sweet Stuff and Solomon Burke Soultown 45's which would put it between 1975-81. So there. 

 

Ian D 

There's evidence or should I say little evidence of countless artists who were performing and recording yet nothing was known of them. Nothing was known about Kell Osborne until recently except for his recordings yet he performed everywhere, including the west coast where he lived. I spent months researching but came up with nothing ever time until I got in touch by chance with a friend of his. S o it is highly likely there are many artists with no history. She isn't totally unknown as two of her releases have been known about for 30 years or so.

I've also seen 25 count boxes etc of records that hadn't been opened up until that point and the discs were faultless. ....so there

You appear desperate for this record to be a boot Ian, until I see conclusive proof otherwise it wil be an original in my eyes.

No point in having a dig at me guys. I didn't start the thread. The record is fine but if you think that's a 100% legit release you need your heads examining......

 

Ian D 

You appear desperate for this record to be a boot Ian, until I see conclusive proof otherwise it wil be an original in my eyes.

 

Not desperate at all Chalky. I'd love it to be a 100% bonafide original but I also try to employ some common sense aligned with a bit of knowledge about L.A. in the mid 70's. I'd say there's definitely two lots of opinions on the record and if Robb K and Pete S share the same viewpoint as me, then that's a bit of a relief since people have been trying to close this thread since page one for some reason.

 

The truth will come out one day I'm sure.......

 

Ian D   

Edited November 11, 201311 yr by Ian Dewhirst

I dunno why it needs closing, granted some rubbish has been written but it's been a far more interesting topic than many of late. The artisan stamp sways it IMO as an original even if the recording date doesn't match the pressing date. It could be something Nate Fortier had from earlier recording sessions that were never taken up by others (Bobby Sanders for instance) that he decided to have a crack with at a later date.

If this is the same as the others, Butch's, Kitch's the lass Pete knows the one in Plymouth, do you think they are all boots?

I haven't heard back from the email to Nate, hopefully Andy Rix might get some good info from him and it might nail a few theories.

I don't doubt your knowledge but you obviously missed this one, everyone did until Barrie Wad found it on a trip.

......or did Barrie boot it whilst he was out there and he's drip feeding one out every decade

No point in having a dig at me guys. I didn't start the thread. The record is fine but if you think that's a 100% legit release you need your heads examining......

 

Ian D 

 

I don't know why you think it isn't a 100% legit release Ian. I certainly don't need my head examining…..the only question that is valid to my mind is when the record was actually pressed and the best theory says early 70's. it would fit in with Nate Fortier's other work.

 

Not desperate at all Chalky. I'd love it to be a 100% bonafide original but I also try to employ some common sense aligned with a bit of knowledge about L.A. in the mid 70's. I'd say there's definitely two lots of opinions on the record and if Robb K and Pete S share the same viewpoint as me, then that's a bit of a relief since people have been trying to close this thread since page one for some reason.

 

The truth will come out one day I'm sure.......

 

Ian D   

 

I only suggested closing it because we get ever wilder theories, it's got all the hallmarks of the old 9/11 thread that ran to 23 pages and ended up with Martians taking over the US Government and then attacking New York in conjunction with the CIA last time I looked at that thread….

 

"A bit of knowledge about L.A in the 70s" you say. I say we've discovered a lot more about the music since you were there Ian. How many Soussan bootlegs were done at Artisan then?

I don't know why you think it isn't a 100% legit release Ian. I certainly don't need my head examining…..the only question that is valid to my mind is when the record was actually pressed and the best theory says early 70's. it would fit in with Nate Fortier's other work.

 

 

I only suggested closing it because we get ever wilder theories, it's got all the hallmarks of the old 9/11 thread that ran to 23 pages and ended up with Martians taking over the US Government and then attacking New York in conjunction with the CIA last time I looked at that thread….

 

"A bit of knowledge about L.A in the 70s" you say. I say we've discovered a lot more about the music since you were there Ian. How many Soussan bootlegs were done at Artisan then?

This seems to be the most likely scenario.  My problems were more with the release date.  The Artisan stamp not being on the known Soussain boots, is a good point.  This makes it reasonable that it may have been a legitimate later pressing by Fortier (who (in this case) would have had to have owned the master-rather than Fortier and Sanders, together)), who decided to get some action from it during the '70s (upon finding out there was demand for mid to uptempo '60s Soul in various dance club scenes (NS, Belgium, Beach, etc).  That would have been similar to Harthon's pressing up records in the mid '70s.  My problem was that I hadn't seen labels like that in L.A. during the '60s.

This seems to be the most likely scenario.  My problems were more with the release date.  The Artisan stamp not being on the known Soussain boots, is a good point.  This makes it reasonable that it may have been a legitimate later pressing by Fortier (who (in this case) would have had to have owned the master-rather than Fortier and Sanders, together)), who decided to get some action from it during the '70s (upon finding out there was demand for mid to uptempo '60s Soul in various dance club scenes (NS, Belgium, Beach, etc).  That would have been similar to Harthon's pressing up records in the mid '70s.  My problem was that I hadn't seen labels like that in L.A. during the '60s.

 

Hi Robb,

My problem with that part is why weren't any copies sent to people on the northern, Belgium or beach scenes…..First copy was found in a small shop in LA. If some DJs or dealers had it, I could believe that theory….but they didn't. ATB Steve

Hi Robb,

My problem with that part is why weren't any copies sent to people on the northern, Belgium or beach scenes…..First copy was found in a small shop in LA. If some DJs or dealers had it, I could believe that theory….but they didn't. ATB Steve

 

I would guess that pressing the record up seemed like a good idea at the time for potential exports to the UK and Belgium but whoever did it simply didn't have the right level of contacts or expertise to get the record to the right people I would guess....? 

 

I'm wracking my brains to think of some other L.A. examples of people doing legitimate re-presses in the 70's 'cos quite a few of 'em were at it - Joey Jefferson, Charles Russell etc, etc and some of those re-presses barely limped out if I remember correctly. That's what I think happened here......

 

Ian D 

Hi Robb,

My problem with that part is why weren't any copies sent to people on the northern, Belgium or beach scenes…..First copy was found in a small shop in LA. If some DJs or dealers had it, I could believe that theory….but they didn't. ATB Steve

My point is that I have a hard time believing it is a mid/late '60s pressing, having dwelt in L.A. and looked for records, daily, from 1966-mid 72, and not having seen such a label font or design there, during that period.  As to whether or not it is a boot or legitimate '70s release, I can't say.  But, if it were a Soussain boot, why did HE not send it to UK, Belgium or The Beach scene (as Fortier should have done)?  Perhaps Fortier DIDN'T know about those scenes, but pressed these up in the early '70s just to take a chance on getting some action?  But those 2 cuts don't really have a sound that would have gotten much sales, base on what i remember was being played on KGFJ and WVON at that time.  I just don't know enough to comment on whether it might be a boot or not.  But I am extremely confident that it wasn't a '60s L.A. pressing.

Whats the chance of a few more copies sat in a box unopened...in a dark garage???.......in compton

 

Edited November 11, 201311 yr by gordon russell

I would guess

 I would guess....? 

 

I'm wracking my brains

if I remember correctly.

That's what I think happened here......

 

Ian D 

 

Says it all really Ian :D

Says it all really Ian :D

 

Selective editing you bugger! 

 

Ian D 

six pages onwards...and me being only reading with interest but not contributing due to lack of further evidence in any direction is not wiser at all. so far to me there are two  possible scenarios based on what has been said and both make perfect sense to me

 

1. "Ian Dewhirst theory": Simon Soussan got hold of the master, pressed it up but then decided (or got the feedback) that it aint right for uk dance floors and so destroyed or stored the remaining run. only a handful of copies survived / found their way into Europe. 

 

2. "Chalky theory": Sandy Golden or someone who believed in her recorded and pressed the record privately (hence matrix SG-201 = Sandy Golden ?). A throwback in sound definitely but it wouldnt be the first example of a seventies record sounding like or wanting to sound like a mid sixties record. Sales were zero, so most copies were destroyed or tucked away waiting to be found. Maybe they have been found already years or decades ago by a US record dealer whatsoever with no contacts to any soul market/customers at all and sold them on to customers again with no ties into the soul scene. This could explain why copies were found in so different and not soul connected places (Amsterdam, etc)

 

As I said very interesting thread and the mystery continues. At least to me..   

Been reading this very interesting thread and Jock summed it up to a T.

Is it not possible that one of the the most beautiful records ever to have been discovered be super duper rare? ....and is it not possible that one lucky lad has found it in sublime condition?

My answer is yes to both these questions.

six pages onwards...and me being only reading with interest but not contributing due to lack of further evidence in any direction is not wiser at all. so far to me there are two  possible scenarios based on what has been said and both make perfect sense to me

 

1. "Ian Dewhirst theory": Simon Soussan got hold of the master, pressed it up but then decided (or got the feedback) that it aint right for uk dance floors and so destroyed or stored the remaining run. only a handful of copies survived / found their way into Europe. 

 

2. "Chalky theory": Sandy Golden or someone who believed in her recorded and pressed the record privately (hence matrix SG-201 = Sandy Golden ?). A throwback in sound definitely but it wouldnt be the first example of a seventies record sounding like or wanting to sound like a mid sixties record. Sales were zero, so most copies were destroyed or tucked away waiting to be found. Maybe they have been found already years or decades ago by a US record dealer whatsoever with no contacts to any soul market/customers at all and sold them on to customers again with no ties into the soul scene. This could explain why copies were found in so different and not soul connected places (Amsterdam, etc)

 

As I said very interesting thread and the mystery continues. At least to me..   

 

I don't think Soussan was involved with this actually. It's his modus-operandi but, musically, not his type of bootleg at all. The connection is the label designer and pressing plant which is the same operation that was used for the early Soultown boots which were via Bobby Sanders and Simon Soussan until they fell out. So my theory is that Nate Fortier and/or Bobby Sanders thought they could replicate the Soussan operation, chucked the Sandy Golden into the pot but didn't understand how to exploit the track and failed dismally before moving onto other things.

 

So, just to be 100% clear, I'm saying that it's a late 70's/early 80's pressing designed to appeal to the Northern scene but probably not a bootleg but rather a stab at a market with a track that they had in the can aimed for a scene that they knew nothing about. 

 

Does that makes sense? 

 

Ian D 

Ian D's posts are pretty "ceterum censeo". Now matter how often you say it's a bootleg, it's still doesn't make it a fact.

 

Sweets on Soultown is produced by Nate Fortier/Tim Lawson. SG is credited to Nate Fortier/Tim Lawson/Tony Benton.

 

My guess is that in the early 70s Tony Benton and/or Sandy Golden got hold of the Sweets backing tape legally, recorded/overdubbed vocals, added new instruments/synths/accordions/ovomaltines/whatever.

 

Then they went to a pressing plant to get the record pressed. Incidently it's the same pressing plant that SS was using at that time for his bootlegs. Pressing plant offers label designs for their customers (as did many other plants) if they don't supply their own designs. Usually these pressing plant label designs were pretty generic, e.g. using the same limited range of fonts. That's why so many different record labels look similar.

 

Eventually record got pressed, probably very limited run maybe 250/500 pieces. For whatever reason record was never properly distributed. Maybe they intended to sell it at gigs but failed? I don't know and I don't really need to know. It's a pretty rare record and not the first rarity to turn up in unplayed condition, even after 40+ years.

 

Re. the theory that SS himself recorded/pressed the record. That's bullshit. Record way to slow for the UK scene at that time. And if he had done it to show the world what a good producer he is, he would have put his name on it.

The fact that this guy put another record out on Sandy Golden means that he must have been her partner or manager and just wanted to get her a hit, so they did this private pressing using an old backing track and did a bit of overdubbing, new song and vocal, and got it pressed.  Then one day he tragically slipped on a discarded banana skin on an L.A. sidewalk which meant he couldn't self distribute the record, and the only copies that escaped were the ones he gave out to those who took the time to visit him in hospital, the rest sit undisturbed in his garage.

Edited November 11, 201311 yr by Pete S

Pete, you basically sum up in a much funnier way what I tried to say . But that's ok. I'm german, we're not supposed to be funny.

Pete, you basically sum up in a much funnier way what I tried to say . But that's ok. I'm german, we're not supposed to be funny.

 

Sorry Benji must have been thinking the same thing at the same time!

well what about ray agee then

well what about ray agee then

 

Not a patch on Sandy Golden