I'm recognizing a lot of mid-sized events recently, which have a list of more than 2 or 3 guest DJs, some even from abroad.

Promoting a small Soul do myself I always wonder how promoters can afford to pay at least their guests expenses.

For my part I had also friends over djing for me but at least managed to pay their flight and accomodation plus a fair bit on top.

Most of us do not mind a bit of £££ to buy our next tune, don't we? 

 

Edited January 4, 20169 yr by hermanthegerman

9 minutes ago, KevH said:

My buddies and i ran a little club for 4 years,tried to pay what we could, many were ok to waiver a fee.(thanks btw to all who dj'd - you know who you are)

£3 otd.

When it ended we had £17 each in the kitty.The enjoyment far outweighed any "wages" to ourselves.

We had similar experiences. On an outlay of a few grand over a year (we had 5 events)  and I barely got my money back but was expecting that for a start up. Our venue got closed down when the pub above changed hands and our dream venue got used as a store room for tables and chairs.  People who ran the venue had 14 years of hard graft wiped out at a stroke so I couldnt really grumble about our wasted year. Our music policy was wider than northern and its related genres.

Hardest thing in London is to find a decent venue not good quality people to play records and the fiscal issues that brings.

6 minutes ago, Russ Vickers said:

Sorry...who ???....:-)

He he - akin to Sam et al I guess but in 'ravy' scenes.  

Seriously, on the South Coast you'd be lucky to get any decent venue below about £300, maybe a little less, but not much, you may also get lucky & stumble across something suitable for less, in the same instance, a venue I looked at last year wanted £600 for a Saturday Night 8pm - 2am, not including security, add on your equipment, back up equipment, sound engineer, DJs, promotion costs etc, etc, etc, working that out quicly, based on 100 people attending (hopefully worst case scenario), your talking about £10 - £12 entrance fee.  If you wanna use cheap, unsuitable, venues with no atmosphere or class (or amenities) then do it on a shoe string, but I think most people are prepared to pay a little more to get a quality, classy event....depends upon how proffessional you are really, it is after all a business venture, admittedly for most of us, non profit making, but it is business & I hopefully have a reputation for putting on events with a bit of class. And yes, ALWAYS pay the DJs the pre agreed fee, ALWAYS.

Russ

3 hours ago, soul45s said:

I did it to help get the first couple of nights off to a good start.
An offer of some petrol money would have been appreciated.
The early events were not supported very well. Then suddenly everyone wanted to DJ there.

Everything has a shelf life, the rest is history.
I commented because of Phils remarks to Andys post.

I think Phil is extremely bitter that the niters folded (under his promotion) and were then very successfully resurrected under the current promoters hand.

Phil is very angry that he gave up the niters at Burnley in a rush. He rarely says anything positive on here!

Fair enough. Was trying to show that there can sometimes be a positive outcome to doing some free spots, especially if playing something a bit different to most.

Can't comment on anything else except to say that I do agree with what you say about everything having a shelf life.

2 hours ago, KevH said:

My buddies and i ran a little club for 4 years,tried to pay what we could, many were ok to waiver a fee.(thanks btw to all who dj'd - you know who you are)

£3 otd.

When it ended we had £17 each in the kitty.The enjoyment far outweighed any "wages" to ourselves.

Yeah thats right mate, a lot of top DJ's did it for next to nothing because they knew we were running the club for the right reasons which says a lot to me - its not always about money. The right people in a room enjoying quality music together 

17 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Chris. A Rave/  Dance night local to me in Manchester  charged £45 a ticket New year's eve and was rammed. . Greedy promoters or  business savvy. 

Steve

I think that is called the real world Steve.  Go to any club with the top djs on that particular scene you probably pay that and more for the night.  The Djs would be paid the going rate too.  

They are also top Djs because they ars different from the rest, they do things, play things that make them stand out.  

The so called top djs on this scene are no different to Joe Bloggs playing to 50 people in the back room of the local pub. I don't hear or see anything from any of the top djs on our scene (the mainstream one that is) that make them stand out.  They don't set any trends......they are afraid to incase they lose a booking.

reading this topic and the amount of venues that charge 3, 4 or 5 quid on the door...it was that much 15 years ago! I understand some do it simply for the love of it, christ I've lost count the times I've done something on this scene for the love of it but somewhere down the line we have to come into the real world.

The venues up north are not cheap either.  Most charge 250/300 for a decent sized venue. Equipment hire is usually 200 or so, get it done professionally and it will cost you more. Security is a must, door staff, promotion.  You are looking at the best part of  100 people in to cover the overheads before you begin to pay the djs.  And the prices promoters are willing to pay there is no wonder many I know are simply not interested in Djing anymore.

This one could run and run,we are now into the realms of justifying prices how much djs are etc.A lot of peeps that run venues on this scene dont seem to come from a buisness background,which isnt essential  but it helps.I  know a love of the music is essential for the vast majority of us,but that will only get you so far.Some of the venues set up in the past from a logistics or practical point of view have been absolutley ridiculous and doomed to failure.There is no cap fits all criteria to our scene,but a basic common sense grasp of simple maths would help a few.No point starting a venue to play a handfull of tunes out of ur hotbox if u cant get peeps thru the door.Personaly ive had venues that cost of 4k a night to turn the key in the door down to venues that need 50 in to brake even.Each venue will be different,the good ones that pay their way usually do well,the others normaly dont

You'd think it'd be this easy wouldn't you:

1. Define the demand and market for your event

2. Cost the event in terms of venue, marketing, DJS, PA, security  etc as a baseline to define your break even point.

3.Price the event taking into account whether the market will stand it and total costs - how many punters do you need through the door to break even. If it stacks up and your market demand forecast indicates a risk you are happy with then go with it. 

If you can't cover your costs through turnover or are not prepared to cover the out of pocket costs then don't bother.

Why I never bothered promoting

 

 

Edited January 21, 20169 yr by Byrney

2 hours ago, Byrney said:

You'd think it'd be this easy wouldn't you:

1. Define the demand and market for your event

2. Cost the event in terms of venue, marketing, DJS, PA, security  etc as a baseline to define your break even point.

3.Price the event taking into account whether the market will stand it and total costs - how many punters do you need through the door to break even. If it stacks up and your market demand forecast indicates a risk you are happy with then go with it. 

If you can't cover your costs through turnover or are not prepared to cover the out of pocket costs then don't bother.

Why I never bothered promoting

 

 

If many of todays promoters read the above mate, they realise where they are going wrong.......on every point

Ref if people on our Scene are willing to pay more - I 'did the math' when I ran my Millennium All-nighter, and had to charge £30.00 entrance that night because it was that special New Years Eve when all the expenses (bar staff / venue hire etc) was at least doubled. In fact, some bar staff were on triple time that night. No one moaned at that, and we had a pretty full house - All partying 'like it was 1999' (Because it was!) 

Food for thought.

All the best,

Len 

Edited January 22, 20169 yr by LEN

As a marker of what goes on outside this bubble with a name at least some on here might know.

I had a conversation with a guy who claimed to work for Kenny Dope's management agency.  This guy wanted £10k for Kenny to show up and seemed to think it a reasonable request and in line with "the market".  A choking on my pint type scenario followed. 

 

I really do appreciate the 'do it for the love of the music' attitude, but we are so behind the times on every level, I attended venues last year, which I had travelled a couple of hours for at least in some cases & disappointed would be a  huge understatement, yet if you read the promotional blurb & the post night write up from the promoter or promoters mates/DJs you would have thought it was the best night on the planet....18 people including DJ's in a 200 capacity venue, 12 people in a venue that at most would have held possible 50 if you were lucky....I'll be honest, I've had better house parties with better attendance....it puts me off travelling now & that's from someone who would jump in the car at 10pm on Saturday night & go 'right where are we going'....Im up for it, but seriously few venues that are worth it......

 

Exactly so Russ , that's why 'gravity' keeps pulling me back to Oxford Street year after year , classiest nighter run by the classiest promoter.

Far too many over-hyped Mickey Mouse non-events out there these days , bring back the days of a few big well run nights that were worth a 600 mile round trip ... ( in case the spoilt northeners don't understand a 600 mile trip it's something us Southerners used to do weekly )

Edited January 22, 20169 yr by WoodButcher

As a promoter and occasional DJ, this is how I do it.

As a promoter, I agree a minimum fee with the DJ's and pay them that even if nobody turns up. If the event is very successful I pay them more than the agreed minimum,

As a DJ, I usually charge no more than a pint (and a pie if there are any). But then I'm not a "name" DJ who people particularly want to hear playing.

2 hours ago, phild said:

As a promoter and occasional DJ, this is how I do it.

As a promoter, I agree a minimum fee with the DJ's and pay them that even if nobody turns up. If the event is very successful I pay them more than the agreed minimum,

As a DJ, I usually charge no more than a pint (and a pie if there are any). But then I'm not a "name" DJ who people particularly want to hear playing.

You are far too modest Phil. You have some great tunes.

Just now, Steve G said:

You are far too modest Phil. You have some great tunes.

Maybe so. But most folks would rather book someone else to play them  

Just now, phild said:

Maybe so. But most folks would rather book someone else to play them  

A familiar story. (sighs)

 

On 22 January 2016 at 15:01, Russ Vickers said:

I really do appreciate the 'do it for the love of the music' attitude, but we are so behind the times on every level, I attended venues last year, which I had travelled a couple of hours for at least in some cases & disappointed would be a  huge understatement, yet if you read the promotional blurb & the post night write up from the promoter or promoters mates/DJs you would have thought it was the best night on the planet....18 people including DJ's in a 200 capacity venue, 12 people in a venue that at most would have held possible 50 if you were lucky....I'll be honest, I've had better house parties with better attendance....it puts me off travelling now & that's from someone who would jump in the car at 10pm on Saturday night & go 'right where are we going'....Im up for it, but seriously few venues that are worth it......

 

And that's the real crux of the matter Russ.

No bugger dares to complain about anything on this scene. If you do you are vilified as some sperm of the devil who should be killed for criticising the promoter/DJ who is a wonderful person, and has been on the scene longer than anyone.

That's the reason that so many terrible events get away with badly set up sound systems, playing boots, and employing DJ's with no records and no taste in music. If you are one of the social club, then people will turn up and tell you that everything was fabulous.

Resulting in promoters who think they are providing a perfect experience for their guests. So nothing ever improves.

Grow some bollocks people and let promoters know if you aren't happy. It's not personal. If you are expecting people to travel to your event, and you are charging them to get in. You need to make an effort to entertain them.

Edited January 28, 20169 yr by Quinvy

1 hour ago, Quinvy said:

1 hour ago, Quinvy said:

And that's the real crux of the matter Russ.

No bugger dares to complain about anything on this scene. If you do you are vilified as some sperm of the devil who should be killed for criticising the promoter/DJ who is a wonderful person, and has been on the scene longer than anyone.

That's the reason that so many terrible events get away with badly set up sound systems, playing boots, and employing DJ's with no records and no taste in music. If you are one of the social club, then people will turn up and tell you that everything was fabulous.

Resulting in promoters who think they are providing a perfect experience for their guests. So nothing ever improves.

Grow some bollocks people and let promoters know if you aren't happy. It's not personal. If you are expecting people to travel to your event, and you are charging them to get in. You need to make an effort to entertain them.

 

No bugger dares to complain about anything on this scene. If you do you are vilified as some sperm of the devil who should be killed for criticising the promoter/DJ who is a wonderful person, and has been on the scene longer than anyone.

Perhaps it is conceived as 'bad form', or there's an unwritten rule like a '' Lovie'' criticising a fellow 'Lovie' for being a crap actor? I often wonder why I can't remember a thread about your  "all time top 5 worst DJ's" on here!

 

46 minutes ago, simon t said:

 

Sorry for being a bit thick Simon, but I don't understand your point?

I was concurring with you about no one complaining or criticising, when you would about things in everyday life.  We have a myriad of threads on here about the best socks to wear at a Wigan revival matinee, but not one about your all time worst northern DJ's

2 hours ago, simon t said:

I was concurring with you about no one complaining or criticising, when you would about things in everyday life.  We have a myriad of threads on here about the best socks to wear at a Wigan revival matinee, but not one about your all time worst northern DJ's

Got it now mate, sorry. 

Always had thoughts about starting this topic i.e. "worst d.J. set" or "worst Soul Club event"  I could name a few but I suppose the chances of a libel prosecution has put the dampers on it.

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by ik001
spelling mistake

I think 'feed-back' is better than simply 'complaining' - Constructive criticism if you like.

Some people that simply complain often think the whole night is just about them. I think feed-back does go on, but privately rather than on an open forum because it's always a sensitive area, and the person giving that feed-back can never be sure how it will be received.

I've done it btw, and any replies I have had have been absolutely fine - I think if done on an open forum I may not have got the same sensible responses because even well meaning feed-back could look very negative to others if done that way.

All the best,

Len 

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by LEN

My 2 penneth then
I ran the Leeds Central from the start of the reunions 5 years ago,  and the DJs that were booked were all too willing to do it for free for the first few events until it picked up and looked like a runner, mainly due to the fact that they were and are all original Central DJs from the 60s and 70s, and they wanted as much as myself to see the Central back up and running. I then started to pay them and they were more than happy. I try to keep the door prices to a minimum for a City centre venue, it's not easy sometimes, as the promotion, Security and whatever else that goes with it, doesn't come cheap, and rises regularly. I only raise the door price by £1 or so when the Guest DJs booked have to be paid, as they usually cost more than the residents, if they don't, the price stays the same. This year due to rising costs the price has gone up by £1, but I still think that £7 for a 7 hour all dayer with 7 DJs, in a legendary venue is good value compared to what others sometimes charge. At Christmas this year there were 10 DJs (one A list) and the event went on for 8 hours, and I still only charged £8, £1 per hour is good value in anyones books.
An issue in the original planning of restarting the events, was that that it HAD to be the original venue, and if I couldn't have secured that, it wouldn't have happened at all. It's just that the original venue happens to be in the center of one of the biggest cities in the UK, and that was never gonna be cheap to do, but I bit the bullet and took the chance, and I can say with all sincerity, that it has all been more than worth the initial nervous breakdown, and I buzz and smile every time I see the Central in full swing - That my friends is Priceless

Edited February 1, 20169 yr by Northern Soul UK
addition to wording

5 minutes ago, Northern Soul UK said:

My 2 penneth then
I ran the Leeds Central from the start of the reunions 5 years ago,  and the DJs that were booked were all too willing to do it for free for the first few events until it picked up and looked like a runner, mainly due to the fact that they were and are all original Central DJs from the 60s and 70s, and they wanted as much as myself to see the Central back up and running. I then started to pay them and they were more than happy. I try to keep the door prices to a minimum for a City centre venue, it's not easy sometimes, as the promotion, Security and whatever else that goes with it, doesn't come cheap, and rises regularly. I only raise the door price by £1 or so when the Guest DJs booked have to be paid, as they usually cost more than the residents, if they don't, the price stays the same.
An issue in the original planning of restarting the events, was that that it HAD to be the original venue, and if I couldn't have secured that, it wouldn't have happened at all. It's just that the original venue happens to be in the center of one of the biggest cities in the UK, and that was never gonna be cheap to do, but I bit the bullet and took the chance, and I can say with all sincerity, that it has all been more than worth the initial nervous breakdown, and I buzz and smile every time I see the Central in full swing - That my friends is Priceless

Good on ya. Nothing wrong in anything there - Your DJs all saw themselves as 'part of the team', as in, you and they all had the same goal of wanting this place to work, and the agreement was set before the event. You also kept your word and paid them when it did 'look like a runner'

Being straight down the line that is - Being straight down the line with people avoids all sorts of unnecessary problems (ever)

All the best,

Len 

As i say Len, it has all been more than worth the worry at the start, standing on the door at every event hoping that people would turn up is the lonliest place in the world.

1 minute ago, Northern Soul UK said:

As i say Len, it has all been more than worth the worry at the start, standing on the door at every event hoping that people would turn up is the lonliest place in the world.

Especially at midnight! 

Just now, LEN said:

Especially at midnight! 

LOL, well, no, not at an all dayer, I'm tucked up in a nice warm bed at midnight, event times are 1-8pm normally with a bit of an extension on special occasions such as Bank Holidays etc.

It is cr*p though I know, the nerves have kicked in 5 days before the event, and you're there long before everyone else so it seems natural to start checking your watch the moment opening time arrives......just as the last record goes on you relax 

Been there many times, it's not for me nowadays but my heart goes out to you - I'll just attend and criticize  

Len 

On 1/22/2016 at 12:46, JNixon said:

As a marker of what goes on outside this bubble with a name at least some on here might know.

I had a conversation with a guy who claimed to work for Kenny Dope's management agency.  This guy wanted £10k for Kenny to show up and seemed to think it a reasonable request and in line with "the market".  A choking on my pint type scenario followed. 

 

Cheap in comparison

 https://www.youredm.com/2015/01/22/much-costs-book-calvin-harris-tiesto-martin-garrix/

Even at $500,000.00 Calvin Harris can make a mistake - So rest easy guys 

 

 

I can honestly say, that although I am a House DJ too, I personally would not give any of them more that £100, reason being that they all play off USB sticks, LOL.

I remember booking Pete Tong in 1994 and he cost £1200 then, but the amount of publicity we got with the booking was phenomenal, with him mentioning the gig on his Radio 1 show all week before the event, we had a full house of 1800+ and 400 queuing outside to get in.

Steve,

Great Post.

Reading your second paragraph sounds like a fantastic example to pay whatever the DJ requires as the rewards look outstanding.

Phil

That's the difference - Not many of our lot can command big fees in relation to pulling people through the door. Just Butch (and maybe a few others)

Going back to other points raised on this thread - In the defense of promoters, if nothing is mentioned about fees before an event, I'd say that it was a given that the DJ excepts that he will get something if there's enough in the pot (That's the way I see it anyway) 

Obviously these £10,000.00 plus DJs sort that kind of business well in advance.

Len 

That's all I'm coming for Spanner lol

a quality Melton Mowbray pork pie ?

18 hours ago, LEN said:

That's the difference - Not many of our lot can command big fees in relation to pulling people through the door. Just Butch (and maybe a few others)

Going back to other points raised on this thread - In the defense of promoters, if nothing is mentioned about fees before an event, I'd say that it was a given that the DJ excepts that he will get something if there's enough in the pot (That's the way I see it anyway) 

Obviously these £10,000.00 plus DJs sort that kind of business well in advance.

Len 

Yes indeed, when I book the more expensive DJs, the price is discussed and agreed on months before the event, and usually a percentage of the fee is paid on booking, along with agreeing on the rider conditions. Then when the DJ arrives at the event on the day everyone knows the score.
Another annoying thing is when you have to run around after the organiser/Promoter, to get paid. This has happened to me at my DJing gigs a few times over the years, there's nothing worse, it belittles you, and makes you feel like you are begging for what you are owed. That is why when I run an event, the wages are paid out without anyone having to ask for them and before the event draws to a close.
There is no substitute for experience, and having that experience you can draw from it to iron things out quickly and professionally, and  it also aids you to foresee and dispel problems quickly when they arise, and many times before they happen.
I am very lucky at the 'HiFi' club where the Central is held, as the staff are amazing and also very experienced, and nothing is too much trouble, they literally bend over backwards to make sure everything goes well. Yes there have been a few problems in the past, but one word to the manager or a member of staff and it gets sorted immediately. I think that having that sort of relationship with the venue staff is one of the most important elements to running a successful event.

Edited February 3, 20169 yr by Northern Soul UK

4 hours ago, Northern Soul UK said:

Yes indeed, when I book the more expensive DJs, the price is discussed and agreed on months before the event, and usually a percentage of the fee is paid on booking, along with agreeing on the rider conditions. Then when the DJ arrives at the event on the day everyone knows the score.
Another annoying thing is when you have to run around after the organiser/Promoter, to get paid. This has happened to me at my DJing gigs a few times over the years, there's nothing worse, it belittles you, and makes you feel like you are begging for what you are owed. That is why when I run an event, the wages are paid out without anyone having to ask for them and before the event draws to a close.
There is no substitute for experience, and having that experience you can draw from it to iron things out quickly and professionally, and  it also aids you to foresee and dispel problems quickly when they arise, and many times before they happen.
I am very lucky at the 'HiFi' club where the Central is held, as the staff are amazing and also very experienced, and nothing is too much trouble, they literally bend over backwards to make sure everything goes well. Yes there have been a few problems in the past, but one word to the manager or a member of staff and it gets sorted immediately. I think that having that sort of relationship with the venue staff is one of the most important elements to running a successful event.

Goes back to acting professionally - you should never feel like that when you're just trying to put in place what has been agreed.

The above point in bold could be another thread altogether! I've had nightmares when staff / managers are basically working against you and the whole event. That is the one thing that has really annoyed me over the years - Some 'jobs worth' throwing his weight around for the sake of it.

There was 4 different managers over The Embankment Club years, and one in particular was so miserable and awkward, one night he was so rude to a regular record dealer there, the guy packed up and went home! I rang him the next day to apologize, but ffs, you shouldn't have to be 'picking up the pieces' after miserable management! (There's enough to think about when running an event)

Len  

2 hours ago, LEN said:

Goes back to acting professionally - you should never feel like that when you're just trying to put in place what has been agreed.

The above point in bold could be another thread altogether! I've had nightmares when staff / managers are basically working against you and the whole event. That is the one thing that has really annoyed me over the years - Some 'jobs worth' throwing his weight around for the sake of it.

There was 4 different managers over The Embankment Club years, and one in particular was so miserable and awkward, one night he was so rude to a regular record dealer there, the guy packed up and went home! I rang him the next day to apologize, but ffs, you shouldn't have to be 'picking up the pieces' after miserable management! (There's enough to think about when running an event)

Len

Your point about the Embankment. Thats all about folks with a bad attitude and realising there efforts to make the club look profitable,can be outshone by a busy soul night - which they hadn't thought of,or could even contemplate doing.

You'll never change management with crap attitudes,best to cut losses and move on.There's a place recently where the "landlord" tried to turn the music volume down in a rare room at 2 am,(2nd room),that wasnt particularly loud if fact Butch would have struggled to hear it lol.Suffice to say he was given the heave ho,and told folks had travelled ....but i think i'm right in saying the room was blown out for future events.

All of which has nothing to do with paying guests lol,i'll have a lie down now.

Edited February 3, 20169 yr by KevH

Personally I'm happy to pay for travel and hotels etc to come up to dance and have a good time, not sure why it should be any different when bringing a record box up with me too. Although obviously the former would've been a night I was going to go to anyway. Just a bit of fun at the end of it isn't it? 

45 minutes ago, JonnyMonk said:

Personally I'm happy to pay for travel and hotels etc to come up to dance and have a good time, not sure why it should be any different when bringing a record box up with me too. Although obviously the former would've been a night I was going to go to anyway. Just a bit of fun at the end of it isn't it? 

Possibly because nobody gives you the contents of that record box !

On 03/02/2016 at 11:04, Dave Rimmer said:

Possibly because nobody gives you the contents of that record box !

Haha that's a fair point, although I did start collecting before I was ever invited to play records (like us all, noone buys records, hopefully, with the explicit intention to become a DJ) at places anyway, and probably would have done regardless.